Ahab's House of Horrors with David Schreiner

Many people fail to connect the dots between the bible and history. Some assume that history can not be reconciled with biblical accounts. On today’s podcast, Dr. David Schreiner, associate Dean and professor of Old Testament at Wesley Biblical Seminary, takes us on a ride analyzing Old Testament literature. We discuss his two new books: Ahab’s House of Horrors (with Kyle Greenwood) and Silhouettes of Scripture (with Drew Holland).

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Transcript:

Welcome to the more to the story. Podcast look, I am so glad you come along today. I have a reoccurring guest who's been on before Dr. David Shriner. And I'm gonna introduce him in a second, you might Wanna, check out the other. Podcast I did with him where we talked about genocide in the Old Testament, and we looked at the

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Andy Miller III: the Hebrew word haram, and the idea of devoting to destruction. That was a really fun episode. So I really recommend you go back about a year and a half. Now that podcast Dave, I didn't introduce you, yet not supposed to talk.

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Andy Miller III: No, no, I'll get you in just a second. That was kind of fun. We Dave and I talk a lot on zoom, anyway. So it's just like it's just very natural. Alright, I need. You need to know that this podcast. Is brought to you. That's that's too fine. I start over that is actually. But it might be

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Andy Miller III: no, no, no good. It'll start up. We'll start over. Okay.

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Andy Miller III: 3, 2,

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Andy Miller III: one. Well, welcome to the more tis story. Podcast. I'm so glad that you have come along. And this is gonna be a really helpful episode today, because I have a reoccurring guest. David Schreiner, who was on about a year and a half ago, and we talked about the idea of genocide in the Old Testament that you look at the Hebrew word haram, devoted destruction, devote to destruction, and that was a really helpful conversation for me, and I had many people reach out to me saying how much they

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appreciated it. So I'm looking forward to this conversation, which is different today. But I think you'll find it helpful.

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Andy Miller III: This podcast is brought to you by Wesley Biblical Seminary, where we are developing trusted leaders for faithful churches. And we do that through a variety of programs we have undergraduate graduate and doctoral programs. Wesley Institute, which starts just after Labor Day, where a walk through every book of the Bible, trying to help lay leaders kind of get seminary education get kind of put their toe in the water, so to speak. And also we have a second group of Wesley

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Andy Miller III: Institute, a second group for Wesley Institute, called West Institute 2, which is a theology track, where we look at church history and theological

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Andy Miller III: topics as well. So you can find more about that@wbs.edu. Also, I wanna make sure. You guys know that I have this free resource for folks who are interested ministry leaders, people who are sun school teachers, pastors. It's called 5 steps to deeper teaching and preaching. It's an exegetical tool that uses the inductive Bible study method with an aim of thinking creatively about how to present to your congregation along the way. So it's kind of

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Andy Miller III: like ibs with a little bit of homiletics in it as well. So that's available. If you sign up for my email list at Andy Miller, the third com. That's Andy Miller. ii.com

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Andy Miller III: also bill roberts, sponsors his podcast he is a financial planner who comes at it from a Christian perspective. He really helps people think about their retirement, and, you know, set goals and get to those goals.

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Andy Miller III: So you can find out more about him at William H. Roberts, Com. And you can find a link to him in my show notes.

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Andy Miller III: Finally.

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Andy Miller III: if if you are looking for a small group resource. I have 2 new studies that are available on my website. One is a study, a video based study on the Book of Jude, and another one on heaven. It's called a Biblical Journey beyond this world. And so we look at a Biblical view of heaven. And there's one episode on hell. So you can find that at my website, in addition to my book that just came out contender. Alright, I'm welcoming. And my friend, the Associate Dean

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Andy Miller III: of Wesley, Biblical Seminary, and Professor of Old Testament, Dr. David Shriner, Dave, welcome to the Podcast.

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Hey, how are you doing? Andy good to be back here.

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Andy Miller III: So you are an associate. So you have. You have given the world this great privilege of associating yourself with me. So thank you for associating again on this podcast yes, absolutely. I thank God for that every single day.

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Andy Miller III: Oh, isn't that great? So we might, I might get in trouble here, cause. I might get to relax on this. Podcast but we had Dave. We had you on a year and a half ago talking about haram, and genocide the Old Testament. Just give give people a little sense of who you are

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David Schreiner: what you do. Your family, that sort of thing just a little short little bit. So people can know who Dave Shriner is. Yeah. So I've been working with Wesley in various capacities since I was a Phd. Student, 2,011. I was an adjunct first for many years, and then I

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David Schreiner: came on part time, and then came on full time II teach Old Testament, and then I'm also the associate Dean. So I help Andy out with the administrative things. Accreditation things in particular. But I do a lot of I do. My, my, my area of specialty. My area of specialty

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David Schreiner: is really Old Testament studies, and in particular historical historical and cultural studies. When it comes to iron. H Israel. So think first and second, Samuel first and second kings. That sort of stuff. III dabble a little bit in the profits because a lot of them are also in that same time. Period. I've I've I've written a little bit on that, but not a ton. I do vast majority of my work now. A lot of my research right now

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now is focusing on the period of first and second king. So right in there the Assyrian period divided united monarchy and that sort of stuff so

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Andy Miller III: awesome. And you do as a result to like, look in that period, you also focus on archaeology. Right? Yes. So I. So III talk about the, you know, basically, how does archeology and interact and intersect with Biblical studies? And how can we use it properly as as a discipline? Because there's a lengthy and complicated history between Biblical studies and the use of archaeology.

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David Schreiner: Throughout throughout the history of scholarship. And it's it at times it hasn't been the greatest and so we've gone through. Iii can. I can honestly say that we're probably doing things a lot better than we used to.

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David Schreiner: But there was a period within recent memory where we just weren't doing very good with it, and caused a lot of problems and build up some straw men and those types of things. So yeah.

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Andy Miller III: and I did ask a question about your family.

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Andy Miller III: Tell the shrine. Yeah, I mean.

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David Schreiner: yes, the Shriner women that is, that is, that is correct. I'm married to Jenny Jenny and I went to university together at Indiana, Westland University. We got married in 2,006 we have 3 daughters, so I am in a house full of women. And, as you can tell in the background my office doubles as my kids art room. So if I

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David Schreiner: panned to the right here, you can see, like a cluttered corner that has a lot of art art stuff. That's yeah. So that's where they do all their artwork. But yes, so they're my old. My oldest daughter is 12 she's in seventh grade, and then we have a 9 year old who's in fourth grade, and then round and out is Lily. So Maddie's our oldest. Bailey's our middle, and then Lily's our youngest. She's a 4 year old. She's in preschool

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Andy Miller III: awesome. Well, I wanna tell you a story about 2 weeks ago I was at choir pat practice at my church and the choir director found out about my book contender on this just a study on the Book of Jude, and recommended it to everybody, and said how proud they were. And then they they mentioned that

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Andy Miller III: Matt Ayres, our the President. Wesley Biblical has a book out on the Holy Spirit, and then they mentioned Matt. Freedoman has a book out on good works that he's done with Tom Mccall and Caleb freedom. And then they said, they said, This is interesting. Moment came the choir. Like man. They thanks so much to Wbs for all the resources for the church. This is awesome. D. Is there anything else? Did we forget anything? I said. Oh, yes, you know what you forgot.

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Andy Miller III: Silhouette subscription. That's a little bit more. I'm holding them up on camera. So Dave Shriner has been publishing like crazy. And it's a beautiful thing

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Andy Miller III: for associate Dean to come through with all these good resource. So Aab's house of Horace comes in the context for is published by leximpress silhouettes of Scripture

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Andy Miller III: by Lexington, Press. So these are good academic publishers, you know, and and this is a in a way like part of what, how you're trying to influence the wider, scholarly conversation. But it has a real deep impact. So I'm I'm interested in, and also to mention your co-authors. Both these books you were project. So tell us who else is involved? I don't wanna just make it just yours.

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David Schreiner: Yeah, yeah. And that's true. I need to give a shout out to to to Kyle, and drew and and yes, Ahab's house of Horace is not a comic book. I know the title. People are like, wait. Did you write a graphic novel? No, it's not a comic book.

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David Schreiner: And that's it's a funny story how that title came to be in and of itself. But I wrote that book, Aab's House of Wars with a friend of mine Kyle Kyle, Greenwood. He is a fellow alum of Asbury Theological Seminary, and we struck up a conversation a few years back at a at a annual spl conference and we gave papers in the same session

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David Schreiner: and our our interests aligned. And we, you know one thing led to another, and he told me about a project he was interested in, and I said, Well, here's your method that you need to use, and he said, I'll have time to write it. I said, Well, let me slap my name on it as a co-author, and we'll write it together.

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David Schreiner: And so that's what it was. That's a that's a book. It's a singular argument that deals with a historic. It's grounded in a historical problem that a lot of people point to around the Omri dynasty.

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David Schreiner: And the subtitle says it all really in that book, and that's a historiographic study of the military campaigns of the House of Henri. So essentially that argument is studying the manner of the historical presentation, the way the history is presented, and what is trying to be communicated through that particular presentation. So Kyle and I teamed up on that one. The other one II I wrote with.

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David Schreiner: I yeah. Silhouettes of Scripture. That was written with Drew Holland Drew is he teaches at University of Tennessee Southern and he's an ordained Methodist. I don't think he switched to the Gmc. But he was ordained in the United Methodist Church for for years. But he teaches at University of Tennessee, Southern.

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David Schreiner: and that also started at a. It wasn't an annual meeting for the Spl, but it was a regional meeting, and he and I both get papers in the same session. and I just said I. You know he, he and I have the same interest, and we do a lot of the same similar things. And we said, and I just said, you know, we should write a book together.

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David Schreiner: and so that's what it was. Did it the second one, though the one silhouettes of Scripture. With that I wrote with Drew is a bunch of individual essays. So he wrote about half of them. I wrote about half of them, and what we do is we do a comparative analysis on individual sections of text.

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David Schreiner: in the Old Testament. And that's not just that's not just focused on kings that that touches on a lot of different parts of the Old Testament. So Drew wrote an essay on the Creation narratives in conjunction with the Enuma English and some Egyptian creation texts. And you know, I wrote a chapter on Moses, birth, narrative

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David Schreiner: and the similarities that it has with the Sargon narrative and those types of things that's a little bit more of a technical study. Technical biblical study. So

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David Schreiner: they're they're they're similar in some ways, but they're also very different in other ways.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, I want to get into both of them here in a little bit. And just to mention about drew Holland I had.

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Andy Miller III: There is a a guy well known kind of Twitter person, Anthony Bradley, who throws out this, throws out this annual type of challenge. He's like, gonna give people $50 because he thinks it's impossible that there's nobody who went to an evangelical seminary for a Ph. D.

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Andy Miller III: Who teaches at a State school.

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David Schreiner: and

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Andy Miller III: last year I'm like, look

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Andy Miller III: there, there's several, but I know one, and I've met Drew. I've been around, drew a little bit. And so Areas went to an evangelical seminar for his Phd. And teaches at State schools. So I'm Anthony Bradley. If you're listening, I want my $50. So I'll split it with Drew.

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David Schreiner: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

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Andy Miller III: Okay, so, but I'll I mean, I make that as a point that there, there's a critique about about some schools and seminars is if they're only training people to do, Dave, what we're doing, and that's you know you and I are a part of developing leaders for the church like that's that's the task of what's the Biblical Seminary. But

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Andy Miller III: the our school also in Western Biblical. Other other places. We are also training scholars. It's kind of like it comes with the game. As we're serving church leaders. We find people with academic gifts that we're able to encourage to move along. I know that's been a part of your ministry, too, like

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Andy Miller III: I'm so I'm sure. Let's just talk about this for a second, Dave. Like seminary education. There's part of it that is training another group of scholars. But at the same time we know the main task like the bulk of who we serve are people trained to be pastors? You want to comment on that?

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David Schreiner: No, I think that's exactly right. I mean, it's about empowerment. It's about empowerment of of the local congregations. Not just lay people, but not not just the the pastors, but also the lay people that are also in it, in in various types of leadership positions. And you know, that's the way that I go into th. The that's the way that I understand my service particularly. Wbs.

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David Schreiner: is that II

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David Schreiner: II push my students to be to to develop new skills. And it really is about empowerment. It's about empowerment to handle Scripture properly, to study it correctly. But then also to disseminate that and those skills as well to the to their congregation, because it's not just. I mean, there is the idea that we we train these leaders. But then there's also the expectations. And and I and I tell my students this, too.

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David Schreiner: that they then go back to their congregations and then empower their congregations, and the people in the pews to do similar and same things. Look. I mean, it's not like we're producing, you know, magical formulas. And we're we're teaching people how to do magic tricks that you know only a few people can do. No, these are skill sets that anybody can develop. I mean, it takes a commitment to understand things properly, a devotion to the, To, to God Almighty, and and a seeking of the Holy Spirit to help facilitate the process.

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Andy Miller III: But these are skills that anyone can master into develop and and yeah, so we, I take that seriously. I know you take that seriously. But no, it is very much a ministry of empowerment more than anything else. Yeah, I love it. And you know you and I both had people who did that for us. And so it's a beautiful thing absolutely turn around for other people. That's why you write a book called A Hat's House of Horrors. That's right, that's right. That's right. The subtitles really interesting to me and some people. II

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Andy Miller III: yeah, I work in history, not in Biblical history, exactly, academically. But II use this word regularly, but some people might not know what you mean by saying it's a historiographic

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Andy Miller III: study

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Andy Miller III: of a military campaign. So what do you mean by historiographic?

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David Schreiner: Yeah, that's that's a good question. It's it essentially means the method of history writing. So you're looking at the historical presentation? You know, I

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David Schreiner: a lot of times, historiography and history are used synonymously, and I think in certain instances it's important to know the distinction, and knows the difference and and realize the difference. And then and then, when when the distinction is important, like this book was when we say historiography, we're really looking at the method in which the history is presented, the historiographic presentation.

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David Schreiner: Look, history, writing involves it. It. It can be defined in many ways, and many people define it in a lot of different ways. But the way I defined it is history. Writing is essentially

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David Schreiner: the combination of 2 things, 2 intentions, 2 pursuits. You want to get at what happened. You want to know what happened, and you want to know what happened accurately. So you're not like making things up.

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David Schreiner: You want to know what happened. But then you also on want to understand why it's important. So there's an intention behind it. I am pursuing this historical question. I am seeking this historical answer because I believe that it's important in manner XY, or z.

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David Schreiner: and that's kind of the stuff that I engage in. So when I look at first and second kings, while reconstructing the history of first and second kings is great, and it's fascinating. That's not the sole goal of why I do what I do. I also want to know

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David Schreiner: why these particular events and these particular experiences are important. So you get it an intention behind it. And that's where studying the method of history writing is so important. You're finding out what happened. But you're also figuring out why it's important. And that's essentially what that that book is about. It's looking at the presentation of the onride wars in order to figure out what's the message behind it.

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David Schreiner: because you don't have to be a Biblical genius to realize that Aab and his family, the Arm right family, are villainized in the Old Testament. I mean there, there's there's virtually nothing good said about them in the pages of Scripture. This is Aab. He's the guy that's that basic like a, you know, going up against Elijah. Talk about Amra. You say I'm I said, when I read the Bible. Say, Amri, so tell me, is it better?

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David Schreiner: No, Amride is kind of the descriptive term. So the name is Amri. So Ahab's father was Omri. He was. He was a general that came to power at a moment of political turmoil in the North. So the United Kingdom has dissolved. There's the Northern Kingdom, and there's a Southern kingdom, and for the first few decades of the Northern kingdom everybody's killing everybody often, and it's just it's a hot mess, and and it really was a mess down south in Juda as well.

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David Schreiner: Well. In comes a general named Omri, and and he's a bit of a mysterious character. There's been a lot of discussion on whether his name is Phoenician or non Israelite, and so was he really Israelite. I don't think really, that's

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David Schreiner: too important at this point, but he's a general, and he comes and he solidifies everything. So he he kills off all of his, his his rivals, and he settles everything. So he comes in and gets rid of all the riffraff and begins to settle things, and he establishes this dynasty, this ruling family that really does settle the region, and it goes from being a hot mess, politically speaking, to being something stable, and where resources can be developed and trade can be worked in, and that sort of stuff.

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David Schreiner: Well, he has a son named Ahab, and everybody knows Ahab. Ahab's married the Queen Jezebel Aab faces off against Elijah. And on Mount Carmel. And you know you have the Navis Vineyard episode in first Kings Chapter 21 where, you know. Then that's the story world. Jezebel looks at her husband and says you're acting like a bit baby. If you want this vineyard, just go take it, and you know, just don't worry about it. You're the king. So it's he's he's villainized Aab's villainized

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David Schreiner: And then we have his son. And then there's there's an interesting conversation about the next person as well. So, but anyway, the Amrid dynasty is is basically 4 kings. That rule for extended period of time.

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David Schreiner: and they're responsible for stabilizing the region, but also being extremely problematic from a Biblical standpoint.

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David Schreiner: So that's so. We wanted to look at the way their wars were presented, because there's oftentimes a historical problem. And here's here's where the funds. Yeah. So from the Biblical perspective, there's nothing good about Omri and his family. Nothing. However, if you, if you just shift, focus and begin to look from outside of the Bible, and let's say you look at the Assyrian records.

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David Schreiner: and you look at some of the other non Biblical records. From that. From that time period, particularly the Kirk monolith that recounts a conflict called the Battle of Carcar, which it's an inscription. It's a big, it's a it's a big stone monument that has Shalmaneser. The thirds military records written on it. Okay, and one of those places

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David Schreiner: he mentions the battle of Karkar, and he mentions facing off of against a Syria Palestinian coalition.

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David Schreiner: and one of the names in it like Star Wars. I just wanna say it is battle. It does. Yes, exactly. You. All you knew is all you need is an Admiral Akbar that yells it's a trap! But one of the names one of the names that he mentions is Aab

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David Schreiner: King Ahab, and he mentions the size of the army that he contributes to the coalition, and it's if it's not the biggest. It's one of the biggest.

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David Schreiner: So we know that Ahab, from an Assyrian standpoint, can marshal a massive

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David Schreiner: military mind. He has massive military resources.

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David Schreiner: We also know from some receipt inscriptions that we have called the Samaria ostraca. No, wait, no, not the Samari Ostraca that's later on but some other records from nonviable sources.

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David Schreiner: This the Ahab and his family are presented in a very positive way. They

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David Schreiner: are recognized as basically the founders of the northern kingdom. They are recognized as one of the mighty players in the region. They are recognized as the entity that solidifies all the socio political turmoil. It's a very positive picture. So this is this is so. This is the conundrum that we have from a historical standpoint, where the Amrides good, or were they bad? Because the Bible tells us they're bad, but everything else that we have that's outside. The Bible tells us they were good.

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David Schreiner: and they did a lot for the region, and they held massive influence on the region. Okay? So there's attention that's produced. And many times

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David Schreiner: people will say, Well, there's something that's got to give. Who's right? Is it team Bible? Or is it team Assyrian inscriptions? And so that's getting at the historical problem. There's also a literary problem where these Umride wars are presented in a way where the name Ahab

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David Schreiner: is relegated. It occurs very, very few times. It's just King of Israel, King of Israel, King of Israel, and the presentation of those wars. Ahab's supposed Ahab's military might is subordinate to everyone else. It's oftentimes understood to be presented as inferior. So this is exactly not what we have in the Assyrian records. The Bible says Ahab's bad, his family's bad, and they also present him as being militarily inferior

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David Schreiner: to all of his neighbors, and the Assyrians are saying, no, that's not the case. He was extremely resourceful. He he could marshal a huge military force, and he he was extremely powerful and well respected and well liked. So again, this is the problem. What do you have going on here? What's going on with the Biblical presentation? Is the Biblical presentation fabricating things.

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David Schreiner: Is it making stuff up because we don't like Aab? We don't like Aab so much that we're going to alter, or the historical reality surrounding him and present him as an inferior person, because we don't like him. So we took. That was the question that we took head on because we were like.

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David Schreiner: no, no, no, we can't. No, no, no, this there's there's something else going on here. We can't just say, well, it's one or the other, and we're not. Gonna we're not. Gonna we're not gonna go with the Bible because the Bible's the theological document. And it's obviously skewed because they didn't like a hat. We're like, no. So Kyle and I were just like, no, that's not good enough.

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Andy Miller III: Okay, this is, I love that. You get this question, and I want to encourage people as you're kind of developing and thinking through ideas. When you, when you come to things like often like a in a context. And I've served in a local church, people will bring up a question.

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Andy Miller III: and that they get when they're just reading the Bible or thinking about ideas as a whole. And I'm like, Well, that's a really good question like I need. And this like, when you come into conflict with challenges, hold on to these questions. That's in part what led to my my work on Jude was like, I'm I'm just trying to figure out. What on earth does it mean to slander angels, you know, to abuse Angel, and so like that kinda helped me work. So embrace the questions like, now, David just presented us with a problem.

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Andy Miller III: you know a real significant challenge like how we associate these text. And I wanna take, I wanna come back to your answer that you guys developed, you and Kyle did. But let me pause here because

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Andy Miller III: we've been having some conversations about the Biblical doctrine of inerrancy lately here at Wesley Biblical Seminary, because other conversations are coming in, and a lot of times. The assumption is that people like us in this tradition

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Andy Miller III: are uninterested in everything you just said, Okay, like uninterested in looking at history. This is just some perfect document. We don't need to think about any other details but what you know. You're a part of this institution that affirms this idea, that the Bible is true, and all that it affirms. And as we kind of think about these reality, what what I see happening here. Dave is exactly what I tried to say in that podcast from about 4 weeks ago

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Andy Miller III: was that

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Andy Miller III: the the the doctrine of it, errancy actually pushes us

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Andy Miller III: to think about our interpretive.

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Andy Miller III: our interpretive moves like. And and it's pushing you in this case to say, How can these come together now? Now, on some sides it could lead people to say, No, you know what this means. I look at this data that Dave's just presented this historical reality and say, the Bible's just wrong. Okay, Bible obviously doesn't get it. So how do we? How do we kind of think about?

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Andy Miller III: I'm I'm sorry for not like hopefully, I'm not jumping the gun too much here. But like, how do we actually think about inerrancy and the truthful truthfulness of Scripture, the authority of Scripture when we're dealing with these type of questions.

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David Schreiner: Well, I think the key

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David Schreiner: is is to understand the type of literature and understand it's it's rules. Essentially, I mean, we're dealing with, whether it's kings or whether it's Isaiah, or whether it's the Epistle to James, or whether it's the Gospels we're dealing with ancient pieces of literature that are functioning along certain lines, that in many instances are foreign to us as moderns.

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David Schreiner: There are rules that are governing these types of literature that are just at times. They're just, they're they're awkward, they're awkward for us. And so when it comes to these historical texts, one of the first things that we have to recognize

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is are are the rules by which these historical texts are are functioning.

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David Schreiner: and the the hard part, and what the difficult thing to kind of get get over is is their cannons or their rules that are governing the way these

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David Schreiner: types of literature function. They're just different. We think of his. I mean, we have modern history. They had history writing back then. So we think, okay, one to one correspondence. Well, no, it's not because the rules were different. They had different criteria that they would accept as an explanation. We as modern historical, we as modern historians, we like, we like database facts we like, you know, causation and that sort of thing

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David Schreiner: that just that was present. They would point to causes and those types of things.

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David Schreiner: but they would also look to other things like a a a an explanation from from God Almighty like this happened because God willed it to happen in modern historical conversations that that that won't get you into the room, but that those are the types of things that they invoked, and they accepted, and they used a in in the context of of those things. So in the in the context of those writing. So we have to first understand the rules that are governing needs

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David Schreiner: these these texts? Yes, and and because inerrancy has to involve a conversation about literary convention.

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David Schreiner: For instance, you know, we we heard it just the other day that determine errency has to consider

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David Schreiner: the perceptions of the original audience like, if if they saw it as a legitimate facet or a legitimate canon or legitimate mechanism like that has to be a part of the conversation of what the Bible as inerrant needs. So I encourage my students that this conversation shouldn't be dictated by modern philosophical concepts. It needs to have at a base consideration

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David Schreiner: A. A. A at the basic consideration of the literary conventions that were operating during this day. And this is the good I mean. The Chicago statement on inerrancy is long and it's qualified, and it's verbose at times and and in many instances it frustrates me because it can't be just a concise statement. But

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David Schreiner: you have to applaud them for what they're trying to do in that statement, and that is, provide the necessary qualification clarification on the literary conventions, and how those things have to be a part of the conversation on inerrancy. And that's essentially what this work is that Kyle and I put forth.

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David Schreiner: We looked at the mechanisms and the way history writing function to say.

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David Schreiner: Alright, let's look at it as a piece of his. He ancient history writing and figure out if we really do have to just deal with this tension that doesn't seem doesn't seem to be able to be recon reconciled. And as as you guys have already know, and we kind of tipped our hand a little bit. We weren't satisfied with that answer. We found a different answer, and we found a more satisfying answer that explained a lot, and then also clarified why the Biblical historian was writing the way that they did.

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Andy Miller III: Okay, thanks for leaving me back into that. I think this is so helpful because so often like, I just wanna go back to. Sorry. The inerrancy piece is just the top of my mind right now, as as we're thinking about rather or not, the Bible represents

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Andy Miller III: divine revelation. All of it, and, like God, has revealed Himself to us in these, with with all of Scripture Scriptures, the Old New Testament are given by inspiration of God. So if that's and and it's like, it's only through them that we can understand the way that we function. It's the primary way that we think about God's reality of entering into the world for its salvation. Okay, if that's the case, like

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Andy Miller III: the qualification piece, this is why we talk. This is why this is why not just why we at why, why we win a seminary context, educate ministers and future scholars. Certainly that's the case. But this is why

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Andy Miller III: we preach sermons is because we we think it's worth it.

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Andy Miller III: that God's clear revelation demands that we try to communicate it well. And I think that that's exactly what you are doing in this text, like, Okay, there's these things that are happening. It's going to take some qualifications for us to say this, but we think this is consistent with God's truthfulness, and the way he's communicated in space and time.

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David Schreiner: Yeah, as as Dr. Blakemore said, in what world do you not? You know in what context nowadays do you not have to qualify yourself and qualifications about just I mean, that's that's a that's a fundamental part of existence. It seems. So. Yeah, I mean, we are qualifying what's going on in here. We're explaining what's going on, because

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David Schreiner: we were not satisfied with the yes, the the the popular presentation of well, you either have to accept the extra Biblical records as true, or you accept the Biblical records as true, and whichever one.

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David Schreiner: whichever one you choose, the A, the your antagonists are going to be right there, propping up the thing that you rejected to say, Well, what do you do about this? And and so we we just we. We thought that that was, we thought that there was a better explanation for what was going on, and that's what we try to argue in the book.

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Andy Miller III: So give me give me the short version, if you want the full answer by their book leximpress. And it's not that long. It's not that long, really it's not. It's it's only like a hundred 30, some pages. So 140 pages. So it's not that long.

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David Schreiner: no, we keyed in on this animization, that is. And I and I mentioned this earlier. So if you look at for first kings. Chapter 20, first Kings, chapter 22, and second Kings. Chapter 3. That's where these ride wars are presented. That's where members of the Amride family, the royal members of the Amride family are going off and engaging in battle against their their foes

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David Schreiner: in a variety of different contexts. There's a literary reality that's going on to where the names specific names are being pushed aside, and it's just referenced over and over again of King of Israel, king of Israel, king of Israel, king of Aram, king of Aram, king of Arab.

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David Schreiner: And and so so we keyed in on that. And we found other places where this worked, where this was in play, both in the Bible and outside the Bible, and we make the argument that this animation is a literary mechanism to

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David Schreiner: we're referencing somebody anonymously. We're no longer using their first name to know specifically. But we're in in this instance. You refer to the king by King of Israel or King of Aram, you're using their title. And doesn't this happen to with Elija? 2. The man of God? Yes, this happens? In a lot of different contexts. And so we point that out in one chapter, particularly like this, this actually happens a lot.

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David Schreiner: because many people would say, you see that they're not. They're not mentioning Aab. Specifically, it's a later redaction from a later time period where Israel was weaker. And it's being retroactively applied to Ahab because we hated we were like, no, no, no.

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David Schreiner: we're not doing that. Rather, it's a literary mechanism to prop up the institution.

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David Schreiner: And the way that they did their business, because what you'll find is that these Amride wars are critiquing the method of operation of the King.

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David Schreiner: who valued political expedience and political opportunity over obedience. So so the king. So a prophet would come to the king and said, basically, You need to do this.

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David Schreiner: This is what you need to do. God has spoken. This is how it's going to transpire. This is what you need to do. And inevitably the king would say, Okay, actually, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to seek a way of action or a course of action that's going to be better for me politically in the long run.

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David Schreiner: And that's how I'm going to make my decisions. And that's how I'm going to conduct my business. So by relegating specific people and propping up the institution.

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David Schreiner: The writer is focusing in on the method of operation of that institution, and in this instance the right family. and how they did their business.

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David Schreiner: And it's a criticism. It's a criticism of putting politics, putting opportunity, personal opportunity, economic gain over obedience.

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David Schreiner: And that's the critique.

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Andy Miller III: So in in this case, if they're being Po. Make sense, then that outside sources outside of Israel would have looked at what he was doing and say, they're politically successful. I like that outside voices like what they're doing like he'd say, Yeah, Ahab is good. A.

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Andy Miller III: Because he's politically savvy.

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David Schreiner: Yes, he keep. He solidified everything. He stabilized everything because he knew how to play politics. Wow! And and that's essentially what the Assyrian records are saying. This guy was resourceful. He knew how to engage in coalitions. He knew how to engage in relationships with his neighbors for whatever purpose and whatever reason was necessary. And that's how he stabilized, and that's how he build his economic arsenal and his resource, and and and gained influence in the region. And the Bible is saying.

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David Schreiner: But he compromised on obedience, and he compromised on living in accordance with God's authoritative teaching.

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David Schreiner: And that's the problem.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah.

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Andy Miller III: wow, is that, does that sound familiar like, I feel like you could take out the names, Dave, and you could say, you know, like we have this situation where you know there's this clear teaching about God's revelation what God's asking us to do in Scripture, and the issue of our time probably is related to human sexuality. But you know, let's not say anything. Now.

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Andy Miller III: let's not speak on that, because it might be more to our advantage later. And that's how we can affect change. And we value political expediency.

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Andy Miller III: Maybe even in a, you know, denominations no longer enforcing the the rules and the guidelines and the Biblical principles that have undergirded them for years, and say, Well, we're just going to push that we're we're not. Gonna we're not gonna value obedience in our situation. Because, you know, we have a We. We were in the long game. We're doing something for political expediency.

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David Schreiner: and I think you could make the same. I think you could make the same connection on a personal level, a business level and a business level on a on a domestic level. you know, it's clear what I'm

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David Schreiner: yeah like. So if you're if you're a business owner. You know how you should run your business as a Christian businessman or woman. You know how you should treat people. You know that there are certain kind of opportunities that you steer clear because of what they represent. There may be a moral connotation or etc.

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David Schreiner: But man, think of the money that you could potentially get by forging that relationship, engaging and engaging that market share. Yes, and then I can then take that money and turn around and do something for the church

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David Schreiner: like that's that's that's doing something that you know violates a very clear standard that God is laid upon your heart. And as and and you're just gonna say, I know I know I know that. But look over here

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David Schreiner: and let's think about the possibilities, and let's begin to brainstorm. And let's begin to dream. And let's begin to envision what we could potentially look like down the road.

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David Schreiner: I believe that the historian is using those kings to make essentially that point, you you, you compromise disobedience for the sake of what could be down the road. And that's your problem.

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Andy Miller III: So okay. What II think I know. But what was particularly Ahab. How was he disobedient? What did he not do that God was asking him to do?

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David Schreiner: Yeah, we talk about that. So at the end of first kings, chapter 20,

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David Schreiner: there is a yeah, there's a confrontation. So what happens is is Aabs coming back from the battlefield, and a profit in a really interesting, fascinating kind of interchange. A profit goes to another profit and says, You know, hey?

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David Schreiner: Beat me up. Beat the tar out of me. And and it's it's a funny interchange in some instances, and it's also frustrating. Yeah, exactly. And he's like. And the first the first profits like, no, I'm not gonna do that, and he's like shame on you. And then he gets another guy that you know just way lay him. But anyway, he you know he gets himself beat up, and he he disguises himself

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David Schreiner: and

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David Schreiner: He meets Ahab on the road, coming back from his military maneuvers. And he basically says, and this is kind of this is this is, and it's actually we talked. Last time we met we talked about Karen. The actual same word is used in this episode as well, and it's essentially you did not fulfill the stipulations of the of the conflict leveled upon the King of Aaron. You put him back

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David Schreiner: in the political arena. You did not haram him. Yes, you did not haram him, but rather you renegotiated his treaty so that you could have economic opportunity in Damascus

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David Schreiner: because of that Ahab. Your dynasty is is going to fall. Your dynasty is done.

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David Schreiner: And so that at the end of first kings, chapter 20, we are told that there was a specific set of expectations. A Karam attached to his interactions with the King of Arum

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David Schreiner: that he violated.

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David Schreiner: and he compromised for the sake of what could happen in Damascus. I'm not going to take this guy off the field. I'm not gonna do away with him, like the Lord apparently told me to do, but rather I'm gonna renegotiate our agreements, so it's better for me.

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David Schreiner: and I get a better return on my investment. And I'm going to go back into Damascus and set up economic opportunities that will then directly impact me positive with. That's the issue with Ahab. That's what he did. And so first, Kings 22 is the end result of Aab. See? Seeing, realizing the judgment on him. And then second Kings. Chapter 3 is judgment. It's it's a similar thing that happens to one of his descendants

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Andy Miller III: in 22. It's interesting. I'm just looking at my Bible here. I noted like I wasn't positive what was going on.

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Andy Miller III: I read this passage once a year, right? And so. And here's what I play at the top here, David.

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Andy Miller III: the first time I called you David in a long time, Dave. Yeah. So I said, it's interesting here.

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Andy Miller III: Ahab isn't named. Just called the King. Yes.

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David Schreiner: yes, like, that's the optimization idea. Yes, that's that's the animization that we're talking about. What that does is. For a moment. It's taking a habit of pushing them aside. And we're saying, Okay, let's look at the kings in this family and how they did their business. That's what we're zeroing in on. We're zeroing in on how the Kings in this family did their business

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David Schreiner: wow, this is good. Thank, oh, I'm so glad to hear this, Dave, this is a great, this, thanks to you and Kyle for putting this together. I know we could go a little deeper in it, too. But I also wanna just hit a little bit of what you cover in silhouette subscription, too. I know. Maybe some of your chapters, too. It looked like, there's a chapter that is similar to this where you took. Talk about the King list tradition. That Drew wrote that one actually. Oh, interesting. Okay, yeah. So I wrote.

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David Schreiner: I wrote the chapter on the birth narratives of Sargon, Cyrus, and Moses. I wrote chapters. So that's chapter 2. I wrote chapter 4, which is Gilgamesh, Aka and Rekaboam.

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David Schreiner: I wrote Chapter 6, a prototype comparing the letter prayers of Sin Edi, Nam and Hezekiah.

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Andy Miller III: Well, that's interesting. II heard your paper on that list. Okay, well, let's let's just talk about the the birth narratives of Moses. What Moses, what's interesting about that? And so is that similar is a similar literary convention and used

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David Schreiner: oh, it's similar. Oh, it's crazy! So the birth narrative of Moses is. Everybody knows that Moses was born, and in in a particular context of of social oppression, and he had to be hidden as a child. And then, you know, the text tells us that he gets too big, and so what it was parents do. They don't want to kill their child like they're supposed to. Well, they put him in a read basket, and they they seal that read basket with pitch, and they put him in a river

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David Schreiner: and then he's adopted by another family, which happens to be the Egyptian royal family, and then he is raised for an extended period of time in the Egyptian royal household. Well, the legend of Sargon, and and we're talking about Sargon the first, which is a very famous

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David Schreiner: Assyrian king.

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David Schreiner: He also has his birth narrative, and he has talked about how he was the child of an unsanctioned relationship. His mother appears to be some type of some type of priestess, but she abandons her child as well, puts him in a reed basket, but sealed with pitch, and she and he sticks, and she sticks him on a river.

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David Schreiner: and that river takes Sargon away, and he gets adopted by another member of the family or a a another another family who's a Blue collar family, and he's raised in that family. He's given a trade as a manual laborer, and then, all of a sudden, God calls him out of that context, kind of like what Moses gets called out of that context for a specific purpose.

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David Schreiner: So I go about that. And so the the birth narratives and Cyrus is similar. Cyrus is similar. It's not exactly the same, and I actually subordinate Cyrus. Birth narrative. Cyrus the Great, the Persian king, is who I'm referring to. But so I go into that discussion, and I begin to ask ourselves the I begin to ask the question.

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David Schreiner: Look, we can't pretend like these similarities don't exist. I mean, they're just. They're they're too similar. They're too significant. So the question becomes is, what's going on?

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David Schreiner: And that's that's the nature. And so and and there are many instances in that book where Drew and I look at passages, or look at things that happen in Scripture

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David Schreiner: through a

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David Schreiner: that looks at broad convergences and arrow convergences and differences and those types of things. So we're not just looking at the similarities. But we're also looking at differences to try to figure out what the Biblical writer is trying to tell us, because here's here's what's going on. And this is one of the things that you get from a seminary education that you may not get necessarily from the pulpit or in a Bible study.

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David Schreiner: John Walton is very

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David Schreiner: famous for saying that Israel was embedded in the ancient Near East. It was an embedded culture. They were part of a cultural river, and so that cultural river ran over it, ran around it, ran underneath it. And so Israel was affected deeply by the ancient near Eastern culture in which it operated, in which it functioned.

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David Schreiner: and that involves their literary expressions that involve their literary creations and those types of things. In other words.

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David Schreiner: they composed similar types of literature, and they composed literature in similar ways as their neighbors.

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David Schreiner: And when you begin to read these texts outside the Bible, you begin to realize this, and when you come across passages like Sargon's birth, narrative and exodus, chapter 2. You're kind of floored because you realize.

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David Schreiner: Oh, my goodness, there's a lot of similarity here. But and this is the key factor.

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David Schreiner: But

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David Schreiner: there's also a lot of differences, and you have to look at it from the standpoint of what's similar. And then also what's different? Because together

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David Schreiner: they come together and they give us an insight on what the Bible's intended meaning is. One of the things that I have found. The more I've done this, and the more that I read this is that the Biblical writers

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David Schreiner: have an interesting way to kind of take subtle jabs at the prevailing culture. In many instances they'll

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David Schreiner: have puns. They'll make subtle illusions. They'll make references sometimes. Direct references. Isaiah is very well known to do this. Isaiah will

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David Schreiner: will make explicit direct references to Assyrian rituals in order to make fun of them. and to tell them how ludicrous they are. So this happens a lot in a lot of places, and when you're and when you're made aware of the other literatures outside of the Bible, you begin to figure out. Okay.

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David Schreiner: there is an instance here where the Bible, the Biblical writer is making fun, or critiquing, or pointing the writers, or pointing the reader's attention to something that they know

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David Schreiner: in order to subvert that message in order to recalibrate that message in order to to tell the writer you think it's this way, or tell the reader you think it's this way.

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Andy Miller III: It's actually this way. And here's the right way forward. And here's the right way to go through it. So like, for instance, a modern example of that is, yeah, I come. I claim Chicago is where I'm from, you know people in Mississippi like this hear my voice after a while. They're like you're not from around here are you? Same for Chicago, well known in Chicago, is the Chicago Cubs, my baseball team.

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Andy Miller III: and there's something very subversive about the Chicago Cubs. Harry Kerry, the famous commentator, you know, telecaster, whatever you call him. He would at the seventh inning stretch, come out and re in lead in the singing of Take me out to the ball game when he would get there, and always toward the middle for its root. In. Normally people say the home. What does Harry Kerry say?

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David Schreiner: Room for the cubbies

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Andy Miller III: root for that cubbies? Right? He in that moment changes the convention of the time.

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Andy Miller III: It says, No, no, no, we're not just rooting for a home team. We're rooting for the cubbies. So as if to say, Your team doesn't. As if to say, your team doesn't matter. Our team is the one that matters, and we're better than you

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Andy Miller III: who knew that we had a subversive

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David Schreiner: and Harry Kerry. But we do? Yes, yeah, we did. And yeah, and so you know, you gotta ask yourself, okay, what's the connection here? Like, okay, we talked about Aab's house for us, and that's a hit. A study of the history, writing the method of history, writing in order to engage a historical question that's oftentimes presented as a way to kind of undercut the veracity of of the Bible and the authority of the Bible.

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David Schreiner: What's so? What's the connection between this and this? Well, it's it's

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David Schreiner: it's another attempt to try to figure out what's going on in the literature. It's another attempt to try to figure out the intentions behind the literature, particularly how it's functioning in that iron age context. Because, remember, remember, in Erin C. In my opinion.

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David Schreiner: has its way forward. If the conversation includes those of conventions, those literary conventions, the way that they did their business, the way that the literature functions, etc., etc., if we can hang onto that. And this, yeah, and these are all. These are all parts of the conversation, because on a level.

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David Schreiner: one of the functions of these texts

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is to

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David Schreiner: bring into the reader's mind these popular conceptions about XY or Z. In order to clarify them in accordance with the Biblical worldview. Okay, that's a part of what they're trying to do. That's a part of the function that's a part of the attention. And for an errand, see? To have a way forward, we have to have that conversation. It's not through philosophical concepts, modern philosophical constructs. That's not it. It's through the conversation of convention. The Bible is in errand. It does not err.

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David Schreiner: and, as Dr. Vaster said. it is true in everything that it teaches. but that key phrase is in everything that it teaches, and in order to understand what it's teaching.

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David Schreiner: We have to recognize the literary conventions, the literary intentions, the literary function

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David Schreiner: of what's going on. And that is the connection here. That's the connection between both folks.

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Andy Miller III: Yes. Oh, Dave, this is so exciting. I know, you know, who I know is gonna love, really enjoy this podcast

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David Schreiner: who's that.

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Andy Miller III: my boys?

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Andy Miller III: Andy? They're big, they are Dave Shriner, fans and like, I think, like, you know, this, this is something interesting about this, like being able to think about. And III think I think it's so interesting to be able to provide this kind of stuff. I hope that people can see in pre predict, like the preachers or people who are teaching Sunday school classes. As you're listening to this like.

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Andy Miller III: yeah, we we stopped a few times, and drew the kind of

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Andy Miller III: applicatory pieces to our times. But there's really something helpful for us to drive back this. It's so easy to kind of punt and say, No, no, no, this just shows the Bible's wrong.

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Andy Miller III: Let's do the work like, let's get the work and yeah, go ahead, Dave.

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David Schreiner: No, that I think that's good. I think I think

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David Schreiner: in my experience the questions of

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David Schreiner: the questions of well, is the Bible true? Is it getting it right?

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David Schreiner: They are radically minimized, if not done away with.

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David Schreiner: If we're willing to do the hard work which involves trying to understand the intentions of the text, what is it trying to communicate, particularly in that ancient context? Because what that does is that forces us to get out of our comfort zone, get out of what we assume to be true, and to actually look at the literature through the conventions and through the canons of its day.

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David Schreiner: And when we find that out, we realize, oh.

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David Schreiner: what I actually thought was going on was not actually the case. And because I'm now armed with this new information, that thing that I thought was a big issue, not really that big of an issue anymore.

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David Schreiner: And and so and so, yeah, there's there's a lot of truth to the thing that there's a lot of truth to the statement of Don't just give up.

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David Schreiner: be willing to do the work, and and that's a good seminary. Education will teach you how to do this. and then you can then model that behind the pulpit. Because I tell you what you know this conversation about Sargon's birth narrative. It's a part of the exodus narrative, and when you look behind the plain words

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David Schreiner: plagues, and you look behind the plagues, and everybody says, Oh, you know, it's it's targeting elements of the Egyptian pantheon. And yeah, that's that's true. That's but it's a part of a larger anti imperial rhetoric.

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David Schreiner: When you understand the exodus narrative against its historical context. In the in New Kingdom, Egypt, you realize that Egypt represents the imperial, all imperial powers.

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David Schreiner: and God is there to take the things that define those imperial powers, flip them on their flip them on its head, and basically say, I'm bigger than you. Don't think that you can control my people.

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David Schreiner: and when the time is right, I'm going to swoop in, and I'm going to save them with such a mighty hand that will absolutely cripple you and take you off the table.

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David Schreiner: That's what the exodus narrative is about on a deeper level, and when you begin to look at it in the context of Egyptian iconography and the historical context, and in in the Egyptian literature of that time period.

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David Schreiner: you begin to realize that there's way way more to this than just God taking his people out of a context of oppression. It's a very complicated and sophistic commentary.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, that is so great and really in your books are a helpful guide to that. So if you're wanting to learn more about like what Dave's talking about here, check out these 2 books. We'll have links to them in the show notes, or if you want to go even further than that.

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Andy Miller III: you could audit one of his classes at Wbs. We, I know we just started. That's covering these areas. You could, I mean, if you wanna pay us, we'll let you get in, even though class is already started. It's 2 weeks on. I think it'll probably be a month in by the time. This podcast comes out. But you could you could check that out. And you could look back at his lectures on on this topic like, he's teaching a class

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Andy Miller III: on what's that class called

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David Schreiner: ancient Israel's history in the context of the ancient world. So we're looking at ancient Israel against these historical categories. And one of the things that we're do, one of the things that we've done, because by the time this comes out we'll have done. This is we looked at, we, we contextualize the exodus event against New kingdom, Egypt, against the late Bronze age, and we began to understand the significance of this event, and more than just God saving its people. Yes, I mean, that's true.

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David Schreiner: But there's way there's so many more layers to this. And who Egypt represents, etc., etc., and and and those types of things. So it was good study. It was a fascinating study, and I don't know. We'll see what the core would. So we'll see what the students say in the course evaluations.

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Andy Miller III: I always ask a more to story question. I've never done this before, but I'm gonna tell you what I want you to talk about with your more to the story, like, I always say, is there more to story? Tell us about your love for national parks and the type of things within a few minutes.

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David Schreiner: Yeah, no, we. We we like them, we we enjoy them. We've been to several. We particularly like the ones out the way out West.

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David Schreiner: and we've gotten to them through a variety of ways. We've gotten to them driving. So it was last year where we rented a car and drove

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David Schreiner: all the way. We ended up at White Sands.

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David Schreiner: in the deserts of New Mexico, which was amazing. That was awesome.

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David Schreiner: and we we looped around and saw the Guadalupe Mountains and Carl's bad caverns and and came back through. So we've driven to some of them out West. We we've we actually do a lot with flying into Denver, and then we use Denver as a hub, and we drive up to Yellowstone, Grant Tetons, or we go over to Utah, and Denver is a good hub for that, you, you know. Sometimes you have to drive like 7 or 8 h, but it's it's okay.

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Andy Miller III: Chicago, and then took an amtrak

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David Schreiner: 30 h Amtrak train, which was actually quite pleasant. all all the way out to whitefish, mon whitefish Montana, and then we went up to Glacier, and then we actually went into Canada as well and visited, advanced

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David Schreiner: up up Banth National Park up in there. But no, we enjoy it. We we enjoy using the opportunity to bond as a family, but also to show our kids the beauty of God's creation. And and

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David Schreiner: and we do believe that it's important for us as stewards as Christian stewards to to do what we can to take care of the environment, not abuse the environment? Because there are certain elements. There are certain places

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David Schreiner: that still kind of

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David Schreiner: manifest the beauty of our Creator in a ways in ways that you just don't see in other places, and the national parks. For all that they are.

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David Schreiner: they are at least

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David Schreiner: opportunities to to encounter the creative, the Creator in ways that you can't get in other places, and seeing those landscapes and seeing those valleys and seeing the animal life

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David Schreiner: makes not only makes good memories and great pictures, but it does deepen your appreciation for the creative activity of God.

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Andy Miller III: Awesome. Yeah.

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Andy Miller III: And anyways, I've been a good advisor to our family as we've taken on national parks lately, Dave, thanks so much for taking the time to come on the podcast I've loved this conversation, and I know it's gonna help other people, too.

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David Schreiner: I appreciate Andy. Thanks for having me on.