American Methodism with Yeich and Lohrstorffer

A year ago I was given an 1844 Doctrines and Discipline of the Methodist Episcopal Church. These first few pages of this book lay out the historical and theological reasons for Methodism's existence. As United Methodism splinters, it's critical to have a historically informed perspective on the modern Methodist movement. Chris Lohrstoffer and Brian Yeich, two Wesley scholars, join me to read these pages and explicate their significance.

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Transcript

Welcome to the more to the story. Podcast I'm so glad you come along. This is gonna be a great episode which I think will help people in this particular moment, in the Methodist tradition. And I often talk about this tradition in part, because, not just be not just because the United Methodist Church is splintering at this moment, but because the seminary where I work is one that is serving the broad Pan Westland

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Andy Miller III: broad Methodist tradition, and I think a lot of it has its source in what happened in American Methodism

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Andy Miller III: in the late eighteenth century and early nineteenth century. So we're gonna talk about that today with 2 scholars of that area. But before I do that, I want you to know this podcast is brought to you by Wesley Biblical Seminary, where we are developing trusted leaders for faithful churches, and we have more than 500 students who are taking 4 credit classes right at this moment, and we're only growing. And we look forward to seeing all God's going to do

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Andy Miller III: through the ministry of Wbs. But even if you're not somebody who wants to do something at a for credit basis, we have auditing options, but also a program called the Wesley Institute, which will start again in August, and we'd love for you to check that out. Or if you're interested in

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Andy Miller III: a bachelor's master's or doctoral degrees, we have those options as well, so you can find out more about us@wbs.edu also. This podcast brought to you by Bill Roberts and his financial planning company. They come alongside people and help them ensure. They're ready for their futures and doing things particularly good at helping people who are in ministry, so I'd love for you to check him out at William H. roberts.com. You can find a link in the show notes.

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Andy Miller III: Also, I'm really glad to be offer several things from my website, Andy Miller, third.com. That's Andy Miller. iii.com. I have a study on heaven, or or the afterlife in general. I talk about hell. I talk about various other ideas, whether or not, dogs will be in the new heavens to new earth. All kinds of things like that. The 5 sessions on heaven called heaven, and other destinations, a Biblical journey beyond this world.

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Andy Miller III: I found out that we have people all over the world using this small group Sunday school last Sunday school, cool

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Andy Miller III: curriculum. And you can get that at my website. Also, I have a study on the book of Jube, and if you want to know more of the things that are coming from more to the story ministries. You can sign up for my email list and I'll send you a free gift. And that gift is 5 steps to deeper teaching and preaching. So check all that out, Andy Miller, the third.com. Also, if you could subscribe or alike, make sure, you're following this type of thing on regular

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Andy Miller III: basis, that helps us a lot be able to keep things going here at the more to story. Podcast okay. I am glad to welcome into Podcast 2 friends of mine who teach at Wesley Biblical Seminary, Dr. Chris, Lord Stover, who's a professor of Wesley studies, and Dr. Brian Yike, who's one of our regular adjuncts who teaches in Methodists and theology studies, practical ministries, guys welcome to the podcast.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Thank you.

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Brian Yeich: Thanks for having us, Andy.

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Andy Miller III: And I, what I want to do today in just a second, we're going to. I'm going to hold up to camera those who are watching on Youtube can see. I got I was gifted this little antique. It's a the doctrines and disciplines of the Methodist Episcopal Church from 1844. I mean something you could put right in your pocket.

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Andy Miller III: and I was so intrigued by it that I wanted to have a little further discussion with these guys about the start of Methodism in the United States, and how that is a prelude to what's happening. Even at this moment.

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Andy Miller III: with the emergence of the global Methodist church. But before we do that I'd love just to hear from you guys. So you, my audience, can get to know you a little bit. Brian will start with you. I know you've been a part of various Methodist things for a long time. And you did your dissertation thinking about John Wesley and entire sanctification. So just tell us a little bit about who you are.

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Brian Yeich: Yeah, thanks, Andy. I grew up in Louisiana. So I'm not too far from the and and we live in the Louisiana again not too far from the Wesley Biblical campus

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Brian Yeich: and I grew up in a Methodist home Methodist denomination. United Methodism ended up as a long story short, I'm compacting this way down, but ended up in the pasturing in the United Methodist Church, and pastured full time for about 11 years before going back to school to do a doc to do a doctorate degree a Phd. At the University of Manchester, did it under the supervision of Phil meadows, and I was looking at

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Brian Yeich: this question about the connection between holiness and evangelism, particularly Christian perfection and evangelism in a Wesleyan framework. And so that's what I did. My doctoral research on did a lot of reading in Wesley, of course, and the history of of the Methodist movement, particularly in England the very early days of the of the Methodist movement

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Brian Yeich: served on staff at another seminary for several years in administration, and also teaching. And before coming on to Wesley Biblical, and also do ministry through what's called the inspire movement, which is a national discipleship ministry, and we work with churches and church leaders and help them to develop. We, we say, we like to help people abide deeply with God and live missionly in the world.

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Brian Yeich: And so that's done through the the ecosystem of what we call fellowship bands and house fellowships

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Brian Yeich: which are kind of a contextualized version of early Methodist bands and class meetings. And so so that's what I do on the ministry side of a global Methodist church elder now, but don't serve a church regularly. I'm extension ministry as well. We call it so so that's a little bit about me, and I have to mention my family, that's all.

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Andy Miller III: Please, do, please, do.

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Brian Yeich: So we have 3 3 kids 2 old, older grown sons who live in Kentucky daughter who lives with us in Louisiana, my wife misty. We work together in the ministry with inspire. And so that's a that's a joy to do that. So.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, that's great. And both of these my guests today have the distinct honor of having the biggest classes in Wbs history as we've grown.

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Brian Yeich: As we.

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Andy Miller III: Screwed Brian is now now Brian's winning right now. I don't know. I need to check the to see if anybody's dropped out, but as we've added 300 global Methodist church pastors, one of the things has happened is that we've just had a huge enrollment increases. And Brian teaches with the the class I love to talk about, because, you know, you might know the global Methodist church is less, you know, 18 months old, but his class is called Gmc. And history, so.

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Brian Yeich: I always have to give the the the qualifier that it is the the history of the Methodist movement. There we go, which is a lot longer than the.

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Andy Miller III: Right. That's right, absolutely all right. And we have Chris Lorsifer, who has been preceded, be as the the Dean of Wesley Biblical Seminary, has been teaching here and at Wesley College. Take, Chris, just tell us a little bit about yourself.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Oh, let's see, I was raised Roman Catholic, actually born again in 1984, January, 1984. 40 years ago this year became a Methodist, then was asked to leave

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Chris Lohrstorfer: because I made the preacher crap.

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Andy Miller III: Oh, man!

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Yeah, I was one of those guys that I I was debating the pastor at every turn when when she would say things like nobody could ever be resurrected. We know that that's never happened that kind of stuff. But

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Chris Lohrstorfer: I I was actually then

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Chris Lohrstorfer: recruited to Wbs. I had to go to college first. I I moved to Mississippi to go to a college at Wesley College, came to Wesley Biblical Seminary. By the time I did. I was working at Wesley College as a recruiter, and then started teaching there.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: and I was there 18 and a half years, and then until 2,010. And then in 2,011, I started teaching online for Wbs online theology.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: And then it went from there. So so I've been here since.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Yeah, I'm a pastor. I've been at my church right now, Mo. I'm about to finish my twenty-seventh year at the church where I pastor.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: I'm ordained in the Congregational Methodist Church.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: but I pastor an Independent Methodist church

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Chris Lohrstorfer: and so yeah, I've got. Of course I'm married to my wife Mary. We have 2 children whom we adopted from Columbia, South America. They're now grown up, and we have 4 grandchildren, one on the way.

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Andy Miller III: Awesome.

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Brian Yeich: Yeah. And I forgot to mention my have one grandchild.

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Andy Miller III: Oh, there you go!

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Brian Yeich: Our very first, yeah.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Wow!

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Andy Miller III: Well in in, Chris. You did your doctoral work on Wesley as well. Right and.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Yeah. So let's say, but.

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Andy Miller III: Our Manchester people.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Yeah, I went to Manchester. Somebody just in passing, asked me after I finished my masters. He said, What are you gonna do next. I said nothing. I'm gonna teach. But I realized at some point

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Chris Lohrstorfer: that you know, there's 2 types of teachers, those who talk about other people's discoveries and those who are making discoveries. And I I wanted to be the the latter type. I wanted to get out there and do research and do something that could contribute. And so I I I called over at Nazarene Theological College and the guy that was President at the time at the time at Ntc.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Was Dr. Herbert Mcgonagle, and he probably I I I surely would put him in the top 5 Wesley scholars at the time.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, for sure.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: And I almost killed him. I was his last Phd. Student. He had a stroke while I was almost done.

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Brian Yeich: So.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: He's still alive, of course, but he doesn't teach anymore. And he didn't take any more students, he said, I'm done with that. I nearly killed him. So

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Chris Lohrstorfer: yeah, anyway, that that's the way.

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Andy Miller III: You did your work on on John Wesley's understanding, and of original sin. Right.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Yeah, his sources for his doctor of original sin. Yeah.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Yep.

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Andy Miller III: So this is interesting, like the the just. Just even here in the background of Brian and Chris. You you kinda you get a sense for their scholarship, but also where they're serving. That Chris is a Congregational Methodist minister, teaches at Wesley Biblical Seminary serves and

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Andy Miller III: association independent Methodist. This kind of comes in a tradition, and even for me, as somebody, you might not always be associated with Methodism and Wesleyanism, though I'm a global Methodist church elder. Now I was 6 generations in the Salvation Army, and it's a very, very similar tradition. So when I find something that

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Andy Miller III: precedes the history of the Salvation Army. I'm shocked off. Not actually, I'm not shocked anymore to see the parallels

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Andy Miller III: in the in these early expressions of Methodism, and how they're similar to the savage army, and what I found is that it's enriched my understanding of my own tradition, and and is give me a thankfulness for it at the same time, maybe seeing some of the challenges that I know both of you have. Have come up with operations.

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Andy Miller III: you know times in your life, in ministry and teaching, where there's some criticisms, maybe like of of some emphases or over emphases in the holiness, movement, and Methodism in general. So I think that's I wanted to be able to highlight this as an opportunity

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Andy Miller III: for us to think about that a little bit more deeply. So I'm going to share my screen. And this is the first time I have ever done this on a podcast.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: What my.

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Andy Miller III: Be the last. We'll see this happens. So if you are watching on Youtube.

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Andy Miller III: you'll be able to see this text as we go through it. So I'm holding up this little version of now, but you'll see on the screen it says the doctrines and discipline of the Methodist Episcopal Church, and then it gives a publisher, and it says, 1844, and this is, you know, a little gift I received. But, Brian, I want to ask you first of all, what what's even behind this title like when we we think about the doctrines and disciplines, this, and discipline.

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Brian Yeich: There is a.

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Andy Miller III: Cleanse. What what are we talking about with in Methodism?

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Brian Yeich: Yeah, within Methodism, you know, from early the early days of the Methodist movement you have, you know, John Wesley, meeting with his preachers in conference, and from those meetings you have. I think, the and Chris, you may have to help me here, but I think it's many times it's the the minutes of several conversations, or the tiles of those of those collections.

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Brian Yeich: But what they would do is, Wesley would gather all the preachers, and there would be instruction, and there would be

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Brian Yeich: conversations around the key doctrines of the methods movement. So there would be questions like, for instance.

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Brian Yeich: you know, how how should we preach sanctification and and Wesley famously says, Well, you know, and I'm paraphrasing, but you know, don't preach it at all of those who don't wanna hear it. But if you do do it always drawing, never driving and so there will be conversations like that. And so from early on Methodism. Really like to kind of codify these

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Brian Yeich: rules if you will. But maybe rules is too strong a word. But it wasn't until really the, you know, Methodism became a denomination that we start having these books of discipline and doctrines and discipline. And so, you know, Methodism becomes a denomination in 1784, in love at Love, lovely Lane Chapel, in Baltimore, Maryland.

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Brian Yeich: Christmas Day. That's right. Christmas Conference, yeah. And and and from that, you know. You get the first disciplines, and I have a collection of disciplines. I should have pulled some out of the box. But I've got some going back

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Brian Yeich: into the 17 hundreds.

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Andy Miller III: Got some.

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Brian Yeich: 3 old ones.

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Brian Yeich: and they were all small, just like the ones you're you're pointing out.

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Brian Yeich: And I think the idea was that, you know, for Methodist preachers they could have a copy of the doctrine and the discipline of the Church. The discipline is really just the ordering of the church. This is how this is how we do things as Methodists, and and they could put that in their coat pocket, and they have it with them traveling, you know, wherever they went. And so that's you know. That's some of the I guess the background. Chris might have some more insights than that. But.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Well, I think you're right on there, Brian, in in. Not only were they carrying this.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: they would carry a hymn book, and they would, you know, and the original thought was

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Chris Lohrstorfer: that they would have

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Wesley's works as well at the preachers at least. However, those things, if initially, weren't really the Wesley stuff really wasn't published at first, and it kind of fell out of thought that they would use Wesley stuff

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Chris Lohrstorfer: so much, you know, right off the bat, so that kind of fell out of the way pretty early on for a while at least.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: They would they go back to it. But but yeah, that was the thought. Some people didn't want Wesley's connection so much to the American church.

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Andy Miller III: Alright. We'll get to that in a minute. In in, just for a prelude to that. Guys like guys we're thinking through those who are listening. Just think why, that might be the case. 1784. Okay, there's a little tension going on between the United States and Great Britain at this time. So do we. We have to keep this historical context in mind

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Andy Miller III: as we think about what's happening in Methodism. But I appreciate you saying, Brian, that this is what the word discipline means

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Andy Miller III: it within the most recent version of a united Methodism. They had just the book of discipline, but it's interesting. The globe Methodist Church has is coming to be. It's brought back in this language the doctrine and discipline, is it? Do you think that's intentional? Brian?

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Brian Yeich: I I do. I I think. Because there's been. You know, there was so much controversy in the United Methodist Church about well, what is the doctrine, you know, and what are what, what is non negotiable.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: They're adopting.

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Brian Yeich: Yeah, or is their doctrine in some cases? Yeah. But but primarily, you know what? What is the content of that doctrine? And and even though that's in the United Methodist Book of Discipline, often, I think it was minimized or just kind of, you know, mostly people focused on. Well, here's the here's the ordering of the church. Here are the rules

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Brian Yeich: by which we organize ourselves. Not so much talking about, you know the the disciplines or the discipline of the Church? Yeah, or the doctrine of the church. Yeah.

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Andy Miller III: In in other traditions, and I'll just highlight my own like this. The savvy army took this exact same language, and so the first, like what now is. Sort of the handbook of doctrine was called the doctrines and Disciplines of the savvy army came out in 1881. So, and it was similar idea, a little book that you could put in your pocket and then carry your song book or your hymnnel along with it.

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Andy Miller III: Okay, so we're gonna move on to the first page. What I wanna do is just read a little bit at a time, and I just wanna read a first few pages and think about how important this is like this. If those of you are serving in any sort of Methodist expression in this time.

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Andy Miller III: it might not hurt to do something like this occasionally, even in worship.

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Andy Miller III: that they are setting the context for who they are, as a people, as a group of people who are are distinct and like wanna in in. Think this is happening in 1844. Yet listen to these words

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Andy Miller III: to the members of the Methodist Episcopal Church. Dear, dearly beloved brethren.

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Andy Miller III: we think it expedient to give you a brief account of the rise of Methodism both in Europe and America.

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Andy Miller III: and then it quotes, in 1729, 2 young men in England, reading the Bible saw they could not be saved without holiness, followed after it, and incited others so to do.

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Andy Miller III: In 1737. They saw likewise that men are justified before they are sanctified, but still holiness was their object.

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Andy Miller III: God then

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Andy Miller III: thrust them out to raise a holy people, Chris, when they're talking here at the beginning about

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Andy Miller III: these 2 people? Who are these 2 people to these 2 young men? And what's this idea of holiness?

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Well, this this would be John and Charles Wesley, of course. And they did initially. Understand, salvation is an issue of holiness. This is something that set the foundation for Wesley's theology. He never thought

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Chris Lohrstorfer: that, at least theologically, as an adult, he never thought that Christianity was just just about somehow getting to heaven.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: He always saw it even before he even understood exactly what all that meant. He saw it as a restoration of men to holiness.

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Andy Miller III: Amen!

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Now he would have got that, you know, in some sense, from the Anglican Church with in which he was raised. That was their. That was their concept. So he came to it even before he probably knew what any of that meant. He saw that but initially on

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Chris Lohrstorfer: in search of holiness. And you know, right across from my desk here, I'm looking at a huge

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Chris Lohrstorfer: picture of the Holy Club on my wall. The Holy Club, in some sense was a failure.

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Andy Miller III: And what do you mean by that.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Well, they were looking for holiness, but they thought it was gonna come through and he got this from Jeremy Taylor. Maybe intention, you know, you need to journal your day really good. You need to make sure that you do prayer at at top of the hour every hour, and they said about, they said, about trying to live such a rigid life leading to holiness.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: But they were missing something.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: and I when I read their stuff, and I'm looking at it. I think they were very frustrated

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Chris Lohrstorfer: and felt like a failure. We know they felt like a failure, because several of them went as missionaries to America, and the 1737 thing he mentions there.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, yes, yeah. I want to get.

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Brian Yeich: That. Yeah.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: They? They realized that something was missing.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Something was missing in there, and if I could just read you something.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Let me pull it back up here.

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Andy Miller III: And Brian just.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Like. Well, he.

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Andy Miller III: He's pulling that up. I'm gonna ask you about 1,737. Why, 1737, not 38. But go ahead, Chris, what do you got.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Well in. So in 37 well, you're gonna get him on 37.

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Andy Miller III: So sorry. Go ahead.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Maybe you should ask him about 37 before I read this cause. I wanna pick up.

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Andy Miller III: So, Brian, we know, like every, if you want to get into a Methodist church, if okay, if you want to get into a Salvation Army. And there's a code 1,865 pound is probably how you're going to get in. If you want to get into a Methodist church, 1,738 pound. You're going to get in or start. Okay? But this says, in 1,737, what's up with that year.

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Brian Yeich: Well during those those years leading up to 1737, and I don't remember the exact framework. So so Chris might have to help me. But by that time both John and Charles had been to Georgia. So Methodism in some ways had come to America, but it didn't, because it was a it was a failed project. Back. Wesley, in his journal, says. And again, I'm kind of paraphrasing. But he said, you know I went to

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Brian Yeich: America to convert the Indians.

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Brian Yeich: But who will convert me, you know. And so there is this. There is this crisis of faith that happens because you know, famously, you know Wesley's on the boat. The Simmons riding over to America, any you know

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Brian Yeich: in that day riding on a ship

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Brian Yeich: crossing the Atlantic was was a feat of of courage. And so, you know, you're on this ship. It's being buffeted by the waves and the wind.

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Brian Yeich: Wesley's scared to death, you know, and then he sees these Moravians, this group of Moravians, German Moravians.

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Brian Yeich: who are just singing and and don't seem to have fear at all. And and so Wesley is. S. You know, sitting here thinking to himself, something is wrong with me, you know. There's something wrong with my faith. There's something wrong with my relationship with God, what? What's going on here? And so there is this crisis, really. And I think some some historians will even say that 1738, which you referred to Alders Gate would never have happened without Georgia.

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Brian Yeich: He needed that Georgia experience. And really, Charles, too, I mean, it was not a great experience for him either. And they both have these heart warming experiences. In the spring of 1738 just weeks, a couple of weeks from each other, and

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Weekend. Yeah. In fact, one week. Yeah.

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Brian Yeich: Yeah, one week. That's right.

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Brian Yeich: So that's that's kind of the.

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Brian Yeich: you know, 1737 is kind of that

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Brian Yeich: crisis point. I guess you will in in those early Methodist early Wesley Brothers lives. Yeah.

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Andy Miller III: That's helpful, Chris. What what is it that you wanted to highlight about that time like thinking about this Ju justification?

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Okay. So this this fits right in behind what Brian said. Wesley went through 3 basic stages of understanding what faith is.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: And the first one, he said, if God said it, and it's reasonable.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: I will believe it.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: his mother said, That's not good enough. He came to a second point.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: If God said it, I will believe it.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: But that wasn't good enough, because when he met the Moravians they said our well, we we can be calm during the storm because of faith. And he said.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Yeah, what? That doesn't make sense. If God said it, I believe it. How does that affect me on the boat.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: and they began to describe to him a kind of faith that was different than that.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: not a belief, a trust in the, and but believing in what the Bible said, but a full trust of your entire being in the work of Christ.

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Andy Miller III: Hmm.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: So everybody knows that on

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Chris Lohrstorfer: May 2417 38,

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Wesley. Here's

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Chris Lohrstorfer: someone reading from the preface of Romans.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Martin Luther's preface in the in the Luther Bible, every book of the Bible. He wrote a little commentary on it in the start.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Everybody knows that, but nobody ever goes and reads it. So let me let me tell you what it says.

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Andy Miller III: Okay.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: It describes faith. Remember, Wesley had a couple of issues.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: He his his issue of faith. He. He did not believe his mother's favorite devotion book was called Inquiry after Happiness by Richard Lucas.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: and she read it over and over in her life, and Wesley did as well.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: But but he says 2 things in it that was hurting Wesley, he said. If you don't have faith to die, you don't have saving faith. That's where Wesley got that. Secondly, he said.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Conversions ended after the New Testament like instantaneous conversions, and if you, if you remember, in Wesley's journal, when the Moravians confronting him on this. He that's one of the things he said. Well, I don't think conversions like this could happen after the so he kind of quotes. He quotes Richard Lucas. But here's what Martin Luther says.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: He says if I could get my computer to get here, let me go to the to the most important part. Now he describes Wesley perfectly

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Chris Lohrstorfer: about somebody who says they have faith.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: but it does nothing. He says this

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Chris Lohrstorfer: faith is a work of God in us which changes us and brings us to birth anew from God.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: It kills the old. Adam.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: makes us completely different people in heart, mind, senses, and all our powers, and brings the Holy Spirit with it.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Now, what's interesting is

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Chris Lohrstorfer: in your book there, Wesley says the the discipline here is quoting from Wesley

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Chris Lohrstorfer: that 2 men saw that holiness was was necessary, but in in 1737 they found out that you have to be justified before you're sanctified.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: What's interesting is what Wesley gets, and he says this in his own writings. What what happens to him at Alders Gate is not about justification as much as it is

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Chris Lohrstorfer: regeneration.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: And so that, that's an important thing. However, he sometimes ties justification, regeneration, and sanctification into one work. Of course it happens, and when he says justification here, I think he's talking about the whole thing

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Chris Lohrstorfer: in that.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: What he was missing was the Holy Spirit.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: the issue of the Holy Spirit, because sanctification Wesley determines is not about your intention. It's not about you cleaning up your life, and fat fashioning habits of virtue, as Jeremy Taylor said.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: It's about a mysterious work of God in which the Holy Spirit comes and changes who you are.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: and that's

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Chris Lohrstorfer: that's the issue here.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: It's not so, he began, a different understanding of Holiness. Post 1738. So yeah, he found out.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: I'm missing something in my faith

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Chris Lohrstorfer: which is about justification. You know I'm missing that. But what he gets from Luther is.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: this is. And here's what Luther says finally. Faith is a living, unshakable confidence in God's Grace. It is so certain that someone would die a thousand times for it in that funny.

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Andy Miller III: Mean.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: This kind of trust in, and knowledge of God's grace makes a person joyful, confident, and happy with regard to God and all creatures. This is what the Holy Spirit does by faith, that's what Luther said. And when he heard that his heart was strangely warmed.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, this is so helpful, Chris, to to put the emphasis not just on this culminated

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Andy Miller III: sanctified moment, but instead, the regenerating, justifying work of the spirit being the total packages, leads that and Brian, that leads us to interesting places. This very last sentence that.

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Andy Miller III: He says something unique, and in it this is an has a ecclesiological dimension of like what they're called be God. Then thrust them out to raise up a holy people. And why? Why would that sentence be important for a book of discipline? This doctrines and discipline.

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Brian Yeich: Well, I mean, for a couple of reasons. I I wanna back up and say something. This is connected. I promise so to play off what Chris said. I think it's important, and I think it was. What was revolutionary about Wesley is that

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Brian Yeich: you know, you know Chris talked about those intentions and those right virtues. Well, what Wesley didn't do is throw the baby out with the bathwater.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Exactly.

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Brian Yeich: He! He's what he figured out was, these things aren't ends in themselves. They are means to an end. And there are means by which I make myself accessible, reading my Bible prayer meeting with others, and accountability. This is these, this is the space that I put myself in where the Holy Spirit can then work in my life and and produce that kind of holiness that that we're talking about.

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Brian Yeich: And so it was out of that that Wesley even says I mean and and again, I'm not. I'm not the greatest at quoting verbatim things, but but he talks they talk about? Well, what is the purpose of the of the Methodist movement? And the purpose was to reform the nation. And and

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Brian Yeich: Well, the end of it was to spread scriptural holiness across the land. I mean, that was, that was the goal was to spread scriptural holiness.

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Brian Yeich: And so so for God to then thrust them out to raise a holy people. That's that's that mission. And I think that goes back to some of the debates, and Methodism over the last few years is, you know, the not a Methodist book of discipline we've got the. There is this mission statement that says, you know, the mission of the United Methodist Church is to make disciples

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Brian Yeich: and says a little more than that, but that's that's the essence of it, and there are those who would argue, well, that's the mission of every Christian

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Brian Yeich: Methodists ought to have a little more unique mission, and that is to spread scriptural holiness. And so there are those who would say.

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Brian Yeich: If you're a Methodist.

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Brian Yeich: yeah, of course, your mission is to make disciples.

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Brian Yeich: but not just any disciple

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Brian Yeich: those who are pursuing holiness.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Said it was the grand depositum.

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Brian Yeich: Yes, yup!

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Yeah, that message was the the main issue God raised. That method is important.

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Andy Miller III: So I just because I know we could stop key, continue on this paragraph the whole time I'm gonna keep going. But that grand deposit him, then spreads. And I think this this last sentence is a great kind of segue into what then happens in America. So I'm gonna go on to the next paragraph.

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Andy Miller III: and I'll ask Chris to speak first, because he has a special tie to this first name. In the year 1766. So John Wesley dies in 1791. This is before 1784. Kind of with the official.

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Andy Miller III: Not one of these like clear moments where something happened. So

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Andy Miller III: Already people are coming to what becomes the United States. I need to stop talking. Just read. 1766. Philip embry a local preacher of our society

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Andy Miller III: from Ireland, began to preach in the city of New York, and form the society of his own countrymen and citizens, and

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Andy Miller III: the same year Thomas Webb preached

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Andy Miller III: in a hired room near the barracks.

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Andy Miller III: About the same time Robert Strawbridge, a local preacher from Ireland, settled in Frederick County, in the State of Maryland, and preaching there form some societies. The First Methodist Church was built in New York in 68, or 1769, and in 69, Richard Boardman and Joseph Pillmore came to New York, who were the first regular Methodist preachers on the Continent.

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Andy Miller III: In the later end of the year 1771, Francis Asbury and Richard Wright of the same order came over. Now we don't have time to talk about all those people I'm gonna ask in just a second. I'm gonna ask Brian to talk about Robert Strawbridge if we can. And then, Chris, tell us about Philip embry. I mean, this is what what's going on? Who is he? Why, what's this idea? With all of a sudden we have this person who's here and then starts Methodism.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Yeah. Well, Philip Embury was converted under Methodist Ministry in Ireland became a local preacher, and in 1760 he and his sister, I guess, was whole family immigrated to America.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: and for 6 years he did not preach. He really felt like the people there didn't want to hear what he had to say, really, because they were pretty raucous, and finally his sister. Her name was Barbara. Heck.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: she said, if you don't preach, our blood will be on your hands.

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Andy Miller III: Wow!

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Chris Lohrstorfer: And so he's. She said, well, I don't have a church. And she said, Start in your own home. So he starts in his home, but he ends up. The First Methodist Church really built in America, came from Philip in various ministry. The John Street Methodist Church

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Chris Lohrstorfer: was, it's considered, the First Methodist Church. He built it. He also is the guy who wrote to Wesley and said, We have a lot of converts. You need help. Send somebody to help us. He's the one who called for the missionaries, which ended up with Asbury coming and board men, etc. That's always argued whether he or Strawbridge were first.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Strawberries was different

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Chris Lohrstorfer: cause he didn't care about like who was doing sacraments and stuff. He went ahead. Did that, but for Emberry, you know they needed he, if it'll Philip Embury, could, didn't feel like he could do the Sacraments cause he was not ordained

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Chris Lohrstorfer: again. Straw Bridge didn't care. I I used to think, maybe in various first, but I think I've come to the conclusion

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Chris Lohrstorfer: that, in fact, in the Historical Dictionary, Methodism, the new one coming out. I wrote the article on Philip Embury, and I said that Straw Bridge was first as well.

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Andy Miller III: Okay.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: I can't remember why I came to that. But my my research.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: I feel like strawberries was just a few months ahead of him, actually in preaching. At least he may have gotten here first, but in preaching I think I think Strawberry was a few months ahead of him.

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Andy Miller III: And you you came upon an Inbury church right

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Yeah, I used to go to Invari Church back in before I moved to Mississippi, and they had no idea what it meant. So I did. A little research came back and said, Dude, this is like one of the first

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Methodist preachers in America

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Chris Lohrstorfer: you're talking about here. So anyway, they didn't even know that what their name meant. But Inbury, United Methodist Church.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: 5 Mile Lane, right on the Ohio River, outside of New Albany, Indiana.

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Andy Miller III: Here it is. These names, I mean are are so important and connect. So I know I'm skipping a few things here, but we already kind of brought up the historical debate about Straw Bridge. But but this one of the more color colorful figures right, Brian, in Methodism.

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Brian Yeich: Yeah, he's a he's a bit of a bit of a maverick in some ways.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: So calling rogue, but.

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Brian Yeich: Yeah, yeah. But but I really think. And the more I read about Shrubbridge, the more I think. He was really reflecting the spirit of Wesley, because Wesley, John Wesley, I think, felt backed into a corner. He had to do something for America eventually, and so he ends up ordaining people for the the ministry in in in America.

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Brian Yeich: which, of course, you know, causes a big stir. But here's straw bridge, you know. He's coming A. A again from Ireland. And I, you know one of the cool things. In the last couple of years we've discovered our family on my mom's side. We have really a lot of Irish background.

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Andy Miller III: Hmm.

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Brian Yeich: And so it's it's kind of fun to to read about all so many of these early Methodists that came to the Us. Or are the colonies at the time were Irish, and so there was a huge influence from Ireland, and of course Ireland was one of those kind of

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Brian Yeich: huge hubs of revival in the British Isles, anyway, you know. Methodism quickly spread to Ireland and was is very healthy there. But Strawbridge came, you know, comes over we're not really sure. At some time between 1760, 1766. We're not absolutely positive. But he was a Methodist preacher in Ireland. And he began preaching pretty soon after arriving. And

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Brian Yeich: you know I consider him probably one of the pioneers, or the maybe the pioneer you know. He preached in his log cabin home he organized Methodist societies as early as we think, 1763, maybe 1764 his first class.

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Brian Yeich: as I said, met in his home and John Evans, who was one of his converts opened his home as well, and and then eventually he built a log meeting house as well.

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Brian Yeich: And of course the the thing that's so that strawberries is remembered for is the fact that he would offer the sacraments to people, even though he was not fully authorized as an ordained preacher. And this caused some consternation between him and Asbury, and eventually I think it's by trying to remember what year I think it's

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Brian Yeich: 17

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Brian Yeich: 30, you know. It'll be well after that, 1775 or so. He's no longer listed as one of the Methodist preachers in in the list of preachers. So he kind of gets pushed aside, you know, and then Embury, I think, kind of becomes the the, you know. In some in some books becomes the the hero. But I I really think you know

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Brian Yeich: it. It's you know you have to think about the context. You you mentioned that earlier, Andy. Here we are in this wild frontier. You know, untamed wilderness in many ways. I mean the colonies that it existed for a while. But

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Brian Yeich: we have to remember this was a pretty, you know. People people have be pretty tough

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Brian Yeich: to come and emigrate, and especially live anywhere but the cities. And there weren't many of those at that time. And so, you know, I I Strawberry, I think, is one of those who's just kind of willing to get out there willing to to preach, willing to share the gospel with people, and he sees the need of people.

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Brian Yeich: And you know, if he's heard Wesley preach. Wesley, of course, emphasizes that the sacraments are an important means of grace. And so

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Brian Yeich: here he is. What am I? Gonna do you know? And I think he felt back to no corner, and felt like he needed to do this for for the people. So he he's remembered as a bit of a rogue. But.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: These are good.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, go ahead!

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Now let me let me just mention I know you skipping, Thomas Webb, but let me mention him 3. He's one of the 3 main first men guys. He was a he was a naval captain.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: and he would preach in full uniform, pull off his sword and put it on the pulpit, and that's how he would preach. He was very powerful, very he was a very animated preacher, and he raised the money for that John Street Church. He would.

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Andy Miller III: His.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Preaching was very influential in in really getting a Methodism in New York there really formed he was. He was quite a character as well.

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Brian Yeich: Often told my students here.

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Brian Yeich: I'll often tell my students try preaching with a sword on your pulpit. See what.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Try that one out.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah, it's so interesting. Anything else in this paragraph? I well, I I do. I I do want to think like significance of Francis Asbury coming, and Richard Wright at this point like this, like th, this is a sanctioning of sorts

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Andy Miller III: from Wesley.

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Brian Yeich: Right.

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Andy Miller III: They like. This is, this is a clear moment where they're okay. These other things are going on almost. And it's interesting, like the parallels again to the savage army. Similar thing happens. The savish army starts in United States because of an Irish immigrant like it comes and just says I'm here. I'm gonna do it and that I think it's something similar. Robert Straw Bridge is here, hey? We we wanna have communion. Let's do it. Well.

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Andy Miller III: here, though. Now there's like an official move in 1771. Why is this important here.

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Andy Miller III: Chris Martin, jump in there.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Well, of course a again, and Barry called for missionaries, and Boardman and Pillmore came first. Now Boardman was a I don't know. I don't know if he was lazy, or if he had, maybe some physical issues. He kind of stayed a little tight, and when when Asbury gets there he made him, you know. He kind of spurred him out. He didn't go very far. He didn't really like it.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Boardman didn't like it. He left and died just a few years later.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: That's why I say, maybe he wasn't physically able to handle the rigors of being in America.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Those first couple of guys they had to leave, though, because, as the American Revolution is kicking up, of course, they're Anglican. And of course Wesley wrote that track against

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Chris Lohrstorfer: the revolutionary from from America side and so that put a real pressure on them. Everybody actually really leaves except Asbury. He has to go underground somewhat, but this is a difficult time for these guys, because being a Methodist means being Anglican sort of what that most of them really weren't quite that. But it was seen as an Anglican movement, which means, they're the enemy.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: And it was very. It was very difficult during this time, however, and very knew that they needed. They needed ordained ministers.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Why? Because

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Chris Lohrstorfer: this is about discipleship. The early Methodist movement is about discipling people. They're not trying to make converts.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: They are making disciples, and their their attempt is to to disciple them through to holiness.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: because they felt like you get transformed in order to transform your world around you. And so he called on these ministers because of discipleship issues.

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Brian Yeich: Yeah.

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Brian Yeich: yeah.

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Andy Miller III: Interesting.

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Andy Miller III: Brian. You want anything else. There.

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Brian Yeich: Yeah, I was just. I've I've a little section that I have found years ago from Pillow's Journal, and I think it's really insightful, and but what's going on? And he he says this. He says, of all that I've seen in England and Wales, where I've traveled, nothing was equal to this, and he's describing what's happening in America. He says the word runs from heart to heart and from house to house in such a manner that I'm filled with wonder and with praise.

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Brian Yeich: So you know, it's a it's an amazing, you know, move of God that these people are describing and how you know.

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Brian Yeich: using these, you know.

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Brian Yeich: some many people who are not, you know, trained and not, you know, really prepared for this kind of work. And yet God is using God's. Raise them up to to to do this, and but they are calling. As as Chris said, they are calling for missionaries. They're calling W. We need some help, you know.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: No, so my point about Boardman was. He stuck to Philadelphia and New York. I think.

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Brian Yeich: Yes, that's right.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: So as Barry pushed him, and he went to he went out to Boston.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: But that I mean really what Asbury was wanting him to do was go, go, go! And he was not going going now. I'm not saying he was doing nothing, but he wasn't going like Asbury wanted, and I don't know if Asbury told him, hit the hit, the high ho or or what, but he went back to England and died died not many years after that. So so I don't know.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Yeah.

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Andy Miller III: This this all very interesting, and how this this go, go, go! Spirit is represented in the next sections. I'm gonna read a little longer section. And just ask you guys a comment in just a second. We believe, they said, we believe that God's design in raising up the preachers called Methodists. This is common language, that is, the people called method. The preachers called Methodists in America was to reform the continent

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Andy Miller III: and spread scriptural holiness over these lands we heard. We talked about that earlier as proof hereof. We have seen since that time a great and glorious work of God. From New York, through the Jersey.

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Andy Miller III: Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North and South Carolina, and Georgia, and also of late to the extremities of the Western and Eastern States. We esteem it our duty and privilege most earnestly to recommend to you, as members of our Church our form of discipline. Talking about this book.

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Andy Miller III: which has been founded on the experience of a long series of years, and also on the observations and remarks we have made on ancient and modern churches. So anything you guys want to highlight there.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Well.

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Brian Yeich: Well.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Happy.

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Brian Yeich: So great question.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: No, I was. Gonna say, obviously the plan was a plan to preach the distinct Methodist doctrine

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Chris Lohrstorfer: of Scriptural holiness. That is

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Wesley. Wesley said, you know God is a God of love, and what his purpose is is to make us people of love.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Love God, love your neighbor. That was for him scriptural holiness.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: It wasn't so much you know the clothes you wear, or

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Chris Lohrstorfer: th those kind of things, the the the outward things, although those would be affected by the heart holiness. But the primary thing was love for Wesley, and that message was to be the message of the Methodist Church.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah.

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Brian Yeich: Yeah. And I think it also, I I think it.

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Brian Yeich: This paragraph really kind of in some ways captures the missionary spirit of that of those early Methodists as well, because.

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Brian Yeich: you know. And there's stories that you know as

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Brian Yeich: America moves West, you know, as we're moving on in time, that circuit riders would be some of the first people there, you know. There'll be a new settlement, and before you know it, there's a Methodist circuit rider.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: They said they said, with every train of wagons going west, there was a Methodist preacher. Yeah.

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Brian Yeich: Yeah. So it was just a remarkable, you know. Missionary zeal. That was a part of of this movement, you know, willing to go wherever people were going.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: I will, I'm sure.

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Andy Miller III: It's also connected to it, says in the very last line that I read, that what what here is their observations and remarks they've made on ancient and modern churches, so they see themselves, like their work, connected, and often the languages use of the primitive church right. Chris.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Primitive Christianity. Right? Yeah, Wesley, Wesley said. This is nothing new.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: primitive way. Yeah. And what? And you know, this is something I've been saying in my classes

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Chris Lohrstorfer: the difference between Wesley and the Reformers. The reformers went back to the fifth century to Augustin.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Wesley goes back to the fourth century.

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Brian Yeich: Right.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: And so he's just a he's just a step a a generation behind the reformers.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: and what he sees there is an emphasis on on therapeutic grace and and the life of holiness that maybe gets kind of washed out with Augustine. And and further, and so he actually goes beyond that place where they're going, and and see Scripture holiness.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: that the Biblical, the Biblical doctrine of salvation, he said, if you ever find a preacher that doesn't preach that salvation is about restoring the image of God. Stay away from that man.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Yeah, re, he said. Revere him not.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Because it's a he said. It's a it's a it's a mere mockery of God.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, wow.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: And I'm telling you he would. He would hate the church of today. I think.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, it. It goes on to describe the what this discipline this little book is meant to do. We wish to see this little publication in the house of every Methodist.

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Andy Miller III: and the more so as it contains the articles of religion, maintained more or less

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Andy Miller III: in part or in the whole by every reformed church in the world. Okay, so he's connected himself here to the the Reformation tradition. Just a paragraph of, or he's connected himself to the ancient tradition. And then here, as he's working through, he misses the articles of religion which in this, in this this book, and his original kind of volume that he sent to the United States called the Sunday Service. He took the 38 article to religion, and took them down.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: From the Church of England.

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Andy Miller III: Church of England. Yeah.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Yeah. That's why he says it's re the of the Reformed churches. That's that's the Church of England. Yeah. He's talking about. It connects him to the, to the Protestant Reformation.

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Andy Miller III: So he so it just. We won't go over him here. But Wesley edits out a good chunk of those articles religion to become more consistent with what

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Andy Miller III: the Methodist movement has affirmed. But those are part of this. So he's setting the stage historically, for where Methodism falls.

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Andy Miller III: far from wishing you to be ignorant of any of our doctrines or any part of our discipline, we desire you to read, mark.

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Andy Miller III: learn, and inwardly digest the whole.

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Andy Miller III: You ought, next to the Word of God, to procure the articles and canons of the Church to which you belong. The Presidention President is so is small and cheap.

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Andy Miller III: and we can assure you that the profits of the sale of it shall be applied to charitable and religious purposes. Okay, I I wanna just jump back here to the intended. Any any comments here on what this is describing like this picture, Brian. Maybe you could go first just thinking of what this says about what Methodism is

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Andy Miller III: in this time.

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Brian Yeich: Yeah, I mean, I think it's I. I think it's, you know, emphasizing that

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Brian Yeich: you know.

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Brian Yeich: next to the and of course, that I like that phrase next to the Word of God. So it's making sure that. And to emphasize that the Word of God is primary.

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Brian Yeich: But next to that you ought to know this. You ought to know the the articles and the canons of the Church to which you belong. You ought to know, the doctrines of the Church. And and I think you know this is something that the modern church has lost as well, that, you know our our average, and this is painting with a broad brush. But I think the average person in the pew would be hard pressed

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Brian Yeich: to say, even if we have articles of religion, much less what they are, what they cover, or you know what they talk about, or what are our doctrinal sources? What are the things that we draw our doctrine from, you know. I I think now I do think that's I. I. One of the positive things that I really see

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Brian Yeich: in the Gmc. Is a renewed interest and a renewed emphasis on catechism, and making sure that people do know what it is, we say we believe and and I think that's a I think that's a really healthy change, you know. you know, we've often said that in in America, in the in a democracy, you know, democracy kind of rises and falls on the ability of individual citizens to know enough.

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Brian Yeich: you know, to be informed enough, you know, to make good decisions. And and I think the same, we can say for the Church that are, if if our congregations are not informed enough

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Brian Yeich: to to know. Well, that's a heresy. Or you know, that's what this group of Christians believe. But what we believe is a little different than that. And that's okay but this is what we believe. And and and so I look forward to a day when

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Brian Yeich: the you know, for lack of a better term. The average person in the pew

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Brian Yeich: can tell you what not only what they believe, but what their Church believes where their church stands in. In in many of these particular issues of doctrine and theology, and you know, maybe not sophisticated, but at least the basics.

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Andy Miller III: Yes.

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Brian Yeich: Little bit of a rant. I apologize.

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Andy Miller III: Good. Yeah.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Yeah, so this is an issue of discipleship.

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Brian Yeich: Yes.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: So remember, everybody knows the famous statement from George Whitfield. My disciples are like a rope of sand. They're gone, they're, you know, but Wesley's remains. Okay. So what did Wesley do? Different from George Whitfield? Well, he got us people together, and he taught them what we believe.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: The society meetings were doctrinal training.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: You know that was doctrinal training. And so what did he do? Well, he puts together a 50 volume

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Chris Lohrstorfer: library for his preachers.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: How do you? How do you get your preachers to understand your perspective? It's not about memorizing doctrines. What? How do I get him to see my perspective? So he writes a 50 volume. He edits

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Chris Lohrstorfer: all these works into 50 volumes for his preachers.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: and it wasn't published again till the 8 mid 18 hundreds.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: I mean that that tells you something.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: What he he put all these writings that he wanted them to learn from, and one generation of preachers got it.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: And I think it's almost it's almost 80 years or something before it's even published. Again.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: we dropped the concept of getting a Wesleyan mindset.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: And so what these guys are doing is, how do we get? How do you have a Wesleyan mindset? Well, you take this little book, and you read our doctrines and our practices, and you see who we are, learn it, study it, meditate on it.

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Andy Miller III: Right. I mean, you didn't really digest it.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: It in your head, you know.

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Brian Yeich: Yeah, yeah.

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Andy Miller III: I love this, and and it just shows the thoroughness of what's involved like. I'm expecting you to do this. I'm expecting you to write these things down and to follow it up alright. I'm gonna move forward it then the signs off on all the people who are there, the the kind of the leaders of the 1844 denomination.

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Andy Miller III: Alright. But now I wanna just read this next little section chapter one section one of the origin of the Methodist Episcopal Church and this highlight, some of these things that are coming about what leads to starting. And th. This isn't just ha doesn't just have implications for the Methodist movements and Methodist denominations United States, but also for what ends up happening to England.

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Andy Miller III: says this, the preachers and members of our society in general, being convinced that there was a great deficiency of vital religion in the Church of England in America, and being in many places destitute of the Christian sacraments.

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Andy Miller III: Several of the clergy had forsaken their churches, requested the late Reverend John Wesley

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Andy Miller III: to take such measures in his wisdom and prudence as would afford them suitable relief and their distress. In consequence of this, our venerable friend, John Wesley, who, under God, had been the father of the great revival of religion now extending over the earth by the means of the Methodist, determined to ordain ministers for America.

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Andy Miller III: and for this purpose, in the year 1784 sent over 3 regularly ordained clergy, but preferring the Episcopal mode of church government to any other.

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Andy Miller III: he solemnly set apart by the imposition of his hands and prayer. One of them. These Thomas Coke, Doctor of Civil Law, late of the

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Andy Miller III: Jesus College and the University of Oxford, goes on and tell him about him a little bit. Okay, I want to get to next little section in a minute.

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Andy Miller III: Okay, Brian.

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Andy Miller III: 1784. This ordination, what does it say about Wesley's ecclesiology? What's going on. And and why, like what's leading to all this is this is the significant, I think, one of the most significant moments in Methodism, and I think, probably the source of some of the things that we're dealing with even today.

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Brian Yeich: Oh, yeah, and and and you know Wesley again, you know he sees he sees the need. And and and he, you know

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Brian Yeich: again this idea of primitive Christianity. He's going back, and he's he's looking at Scripture, and he's and he's wrestling over this. And he he finally, you know, comes to the conclusion that well,

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Brian Yeich: I I've got to do this. I've got to. I I've got to ordain people because this is a again kind of feeling, I think, in some ways backed into a corner. And and and so in a thought process is really interesting. You know, he, he says, and I'll I'll see if I can find the quote. But he says

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Brian Yeich: basically that you know he has as much right to ordain as any.

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Brian Yeich: Is anyone. looking at it from, you know both a historical and theological perspective, and and sees himself in that line, you know that he where he could do this. So

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Brian Yeich: So it's really interesting, you know, to to see this kind of

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Brian Yeich: you know thing coming from Wesley, and and how you know he makes this move. That is pretty bold. I mean, you know his. His brother didn't like it. In fact, he wrote him, a a against him.

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Andy Miller III: Find it, and quote it here for us.

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Brian Yeich: Okay. I've got it if you don't, because it's it's pretty interesting.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: There you go!

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Andy Miller III: Do. Yeah.

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Andy Miller III: Chris, any thoughts here, too, like what the necessity? Or maybe you want to even think of the sources that maybe led him to get to this place. I'm just guessing what you might say.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Well, I mean, you know, it was a difficult decision. Some people really criticize John on this, because

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Chris Lohrstorfer: it's a little weird. Some of the things that happen during this.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: You know he contacts this Greek orthodox Bishop Erasmus, or whoever and.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah, that's right.

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Brian Yeich: Yeah, you got.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Because he believes in the in the a a apostolic succession, you know, basically an ordination.

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Brian Yeich: Shrimp.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: And so so he he doesn't just do it himself.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: He gets this guy to step in, and it kind of led to some confusion, because some of the other Methodist preachers went to this guy without even Wesley knowing it for ordination. A bunch of people kind of ran to him for that, and it. It was kind of a confusing thing. I don't know that it was all good, but that was how he figured it out. That's how he was able to work it out.

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Andy Miller III: So he found us. He found some like backup for this idea of something that, like just pragmatically needed to happen. But, as you said, I found the the hymn that Charles wrote, and so this just highlights attention. And, by the way, this might be the first time I swear on my pocket.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Casting bye.

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Andy Miller III: I'm just quoting Charles Wesley. I want to say that very clearly.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Horrible decree.

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Andy Miller III: So here it is. So he writes this to his brother, so easily are bishops made by man's or women's whim.

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Andy Miller III: Wesley. He just says W. There.

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Andy Miller III: Wes W. His hands on C for coke, so myria wes W. His hands on C hath laid.

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Andy Miller III: but who laid hands on him.

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Andy Miller III: and then he goes on a little further. A Roman Emperor. Tis, said his favorite horse, a console maid.

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Andy Miller III: but Coke brings other things to Path

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Andy Miller III: Pass. He makes a bishop of an ass.

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Andy Miller III: Sorry. I'm just reading just reading. There.

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Brian Yeich: Don't!

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Andy Miller III: And this led obviously to significant tensions here. But what we see happening in the United States

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Andy Miller III: is this, by laying their hands on, by laying his hands in ordaining Thomas Coke. Then they come over, and then there's the election of Francis Asbury, Francis Asbury, and then takes on democratically, very much in the in the mode of what's happening in United States. The title of Bishop

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Andy Miller III: John Wesley doesn't like this.

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Brian Yeich: The.

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Andy Miller III: This, then, like, is almost a separation.

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Andy Miller III: is a separation of Methodist in America from Methodist in Britain. But what is it that happens in America. It explodes. It just goes crazy in a beautiful way. So I I can't help but think.

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Andy Miller III: And now this is where I want you guys to to stop me or correct me, that what happens in in the United American Methodism is kind of the unleashing

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Andy Miller III: of of Methodist theology in the the American context.

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Brian Yeich: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I I think Wesley again, I found a copy of of Wesley's letter. So he sent a letter with coke and and what coke as he sends them over, and he says this, he says

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Brian Yeich: my scruples are at an end. I mean he just that that is, that is visceral language. My scruples are at an end, and I can save myself at full liberty, as I violate no order and invade no man's right by appointing and sending laborers into the harvest. Hear that language laborers into the harvest. I have accordingly appointed Dr. Coke

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Brian Yeich: and Mr. Francis Asbury to be joint superintendents over our brethren in North America. If anyone will point to a more rational and scriptural way of feeding and guiding these poor sheep in the wilderness, I will gladly embrace it. At present I cannot see any better method than than that I have taken.

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Brian Yeich: so he he! I think again. Bill's backed into a corner, but it is. It's the harvest

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Brian Yeich: that that's what Wesley's seeing. Wesley is hearing these reports, and he knows that the the movement is growing in America. And he, I think I think, really for Wesley

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Brian Yeich: he feels like if he doesn't do something he's getting in God's way.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: And look at. Listen to these results. When Asbury comes, there's 1,200 Methodists when he dies. There's 214,000 members.

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Andy Miller III: Wow! Wow!

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Chris Lohrstorfer: With 700 ordained preachers under under Asbury.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: That's some kind of results.

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Andy Miller III: And and they think like E, even this last little page here I'm going to go back to reading about halfway down the page, e after it talks about setting aside, setting apart, commissioning Francis Asbury. He said, Francis Asbury being the first ordained deacon and elder, in consequence of which the said Francis Asbury was solemnly set apart for the said Episcopal office by prayer.

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Andy Miller III: and and the episcopal office is bishop and okay, like being called led to himself, be identified as bishop, and the imposition of the hands of the said Thomas Coke. Other regularly ordained ministers assisting in the sacred ceremony.

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Andy Miller III: at which time the General Conference held at Baltimore did unanimously receive the said Thomas Coke and Francis Asbury, as their bishops, being fully satisfied of the validity of their episcopal ordination

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Andy Miller III: like this. This is the and foundation. Now then, then, it stops, and you'll see if you're looking ahead.

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Andy Miller III: We won't read this here, but then you have the article to religion. This is setting the stage. This is setting a stage like there is this call to spread scriptural holiness across the land. There are people who have like been inspired to do this. They want to study. They wanna have this very particular type of religious body. And this is the history for it. So I I think that there's these interesting ideas at the foundation

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Andy Miller III: of what has become Methodism, America I love for you both. I know we've gone on for a long time here, but I'd love for you both just to offer some closing thoughts about what this kind of like

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Andy Miller III: this history.

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Andy Miller III: Might mean for us as we're looking at Methodism in 2024.

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Andy Miller III: Chris, let me let you share first. So.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: I think I think there's a revival of Methodism right now, because Methodism offers something that

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Chris Lohrstorfer: I think the a new generation is looking for they don't want. They don't want just religion.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: That is just some form with no power. They they like transformed life. They like a religion that works itself outward into society.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: and I think Methodism offers exactly what they're looking for.

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Andy Miller III: It.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: If they could understand. You know where we're coming from. I think that I think it would be exactly that. And so I think we're seeing that. I think I think people are are engaging in that, just like it was during in those days when when Asbury and some of those guys when you look at the next. Well, the generation of guys at Asbury raised up Freeborn Garrett. Even then, if you look at cart, Richard. No, that Richard.

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Andy Miller III: Peter Carwright.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Peter Cartwright, some of those guys, I mean, man, they were fantastic

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Chris Lohrstorfer: guys who were just absolutely sold out to this mission.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: And I think if we could.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: if we could see ourself in this way.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: I think I think we could offer this generation exactly what it's looking for.

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Andy Miller III: Amen. And you, Chris, you're you being active in association, independent Methodists and Congregational Methodists. And you see some of some hopeful signs right in those 2 2.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Oh, yeah, we're, you know. We also some of the churches that came off the Umc. Came our way in the Cmc. We we invited them to. And we're you know, we're we're looking at a significant growth for denomination. Our size. It's very exciting.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: We're really excited about, because everybody who's coming into our church

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Chris Lohrstorfer: they're very excited about what's going on. It's not just same old, same old. They're really excited, which is good for the rest of us in the Cmc. In the Caracal Methodist Church to kind of get that new influx of of mission and vision. But yeah, it's it's an exciting time

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Andy Miller III: Think.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: I think there's people ready to go if they can be led.

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Andy Miller III: Amen. Yeah. And part of this discipline is to provide a means whereby people can be led. And, Brian, I know that's the type of thing that you and Phil Meadows are putting together with inspire, like trying to

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Andy Miller III: put some of this structure here. That was a part of the heart of this. But what do you think the hope is? For the 2024? As we look back at this history.

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Brian Yeich: Yeah, a couple a couple of thoughts come to mind, Andy. One is, you know, I think Methodism has always been a movement.

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Brian Yeich: and when we cease to be a movement we cease to be Methodist.

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Andy Miller III: Right.

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Brian Yeich: And and it's a discipleship movement. You know Chris has mentioned. He's mentioned discipleship more than I have, and I should have been the one saying, anyway, but it is a discipleship movement and and helping people from not knowing anything about God, to becoming someone who is experienced

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Brian Yeich: Christian perfection. I mean, that is our, that. That is the movement we're talking about

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Brian Yeich: the the other thing that gives me hope. And, Andy, you've been involved in some of this, too, and I'm sure Chris has as well. But I see more and more connections developing between these various expressions of Methodism, Azure and Wesley and Free Methodist, Congregational, Methodist, Independent Methodist and and and just. A renewed sense of we are all e even assemblies of God and Church of God. I mean, we're we're part of a family that that has its roots.

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Brian Yeich: Yes, and John Wesley. But even beyond that, as Chris yeah, pointed out to the primitive church, you know, and

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Brian Yeich: we ought to be.

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Brian Yeich: you know, helping one another. We ought to be working together, you know, and so I I really see

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Brian Yeich: a new kind of, and I hate to use this word because it's I think it's gone off the rails in some ways, but I think there's a new ecumenical spirit within the Wesleyan umbrella to help

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Brian Yeich: people the people call Methodists. Let's just say it that way. You know. Embrace and continue this movement. That God raised up and then pursue that grand deposit on as as Wesley identified it.

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Andy Miller III: Amen. Oh, I love this and this! This gets me excited, and I I see some of my listeners who who have been with me for a while back, when the Podcast was called Captain's Corner from the Salvation Army. This is a part of our tradition as well and and part of the thing of like, of of us embracing this and not just becoming generically evangelical. Not that there's anything wrong with just Angel, but

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Andy Miller III: but what Chris is talking about the hope that people have that they're longing for a restoration, a total restoration, the image of God not just getting your sins forgiven, and maybe being floated away to some disembodied state at some point. But really this

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Andy Miller III: total picture of ultimate renewal.

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Andy Miller III: th. These denominations, even if we have different structures, different systems, different polity. When the my, my form, the the savvy army grass, this tradition, it revivifies

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Andy Miller III: all of its activity, and then we start to see like, oh, well, and I think Wbs is an expression of that when we we see our classes build up with all of these different denominations. It gives us a picture of what's coming, so makes give you all another last 10 s in case you wanted to say anything else, but I know I've kept you for a long time.

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Andy Miller III: Anything else, Chris. Anything else, Brian.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: I just think the future the future of Methodism is is pretty exciting.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: because the vision and the mission for so long has been been stifled by nonsense.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: and I think when you clear the nonsense away, we can get back to the business of being Methodist in the true sense of the word.

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Chris Lohrstorfer: Amen.

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Brian Yeich: I'll I'll just say this. This is a global phenomenon.

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Andy Miller III: Amen! Amen!

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Brian Yeich: And I was just just talking to a friend of mine who is from Benin, West Africa, and the the renewal that's going on there and the people working for that. And so I I really think, yeah, I I think there's a amazing future for the people called Methodists. As we follow God's lead.

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Andy Miller III: Amen. Well, thank you all. Thank you, Chris and Brian, for coming along, if you like, what you hear from them. These guys are teaching regularly here at Wbs. And love for you. If you're not interested in an academic degree, you come and audit a class with them. I know you'd be blessed by it. Both teach in theology and and history and practical theology. So we'd love to engage you love for you to be with them a little bit more. So check us out at Wbs, Edu, and thanks for coming along today. God bless you all.