Andy Miller III
Cold-Case Detective J. Warner Wallace, Person of InterestCold-Case Detective J. Warner Wallace, Person of Interest

Cold-Case Detective J. Warner Wallace, Person of Interest

November 18 2021


Cold Case Detective and Christian apologist, J. Warner Wallace talks about his new book, Person of Interest, on today’s podcast. Follow these links:


YouTube - https://youtu.be/HBIIwWS9xLA

Audio Podcast - https://share.transistor.fm/s/0531e88f

Thanks to Zondervan, we are giving away five copies of Person of Interest: Why Jesus Still Matters in a World that Rejects the Bible. Here’s how you can earn a chance to win one:

1. Share a link to this interview with Jim on your social media.

2. Join my email list here - https://andymilleriii.com/about/email-list

3. Make a comment on my YouTube interview with J. Warner Wallace

Find out more about J. Warner Wallace’s ministry here - https://coldcasechristianity.com/


Today’s episode is brought to you by two sponsors:

Keith Waters and his team at WPO Development do an amazing job helping non-profits and churches through mission planning studies, strategic plans, feasibility studies, and capital campaigns. We are honored to have Keith and WPO on the More to the Story team. You can find out more about them at www.wpodevelopment.com

or touch base directly with Keith at Keith.Waters@wpodevelopment.com.

AND

Bill Roberts is a financial advisor, who has been serving the retirement planning and investment needs of individuals, families, non-profits, and churches for 25 years. He is a Certified Financial Planner and accredited investment fiduciary. Bill specializes in working with Salvation Army employees and officers by helping them realize their financial goals.

You can find out more about Bill’s business at www.WilliamHRoberts.com


The following transcript likely contains errors, it was automatically taken via zoom. Please refer to the video for the correct aspects of this interview.


Welcome to the more to the story podcast I am honored today to have on the podcast somebody i've admired for a while and you might know him through his work on cold case Christianity, and that is Jay Warner Wallace, Jim welcome to the podcast.

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J. Warner Wallace: Thanks so much for having me i'm glad to be here.

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Andy Miller III: We are I love, some people my audience might not know about you and I hope that this is a great way to introduce you to them and your work and apologetics but you came about this in a different way.

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Andy Miller III: I kind of look at you, you know, through the lens of that great of course detective from the Sherlock Holmes, you know, like.

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Andy Miller III: The great depth of reasoner and you, you served as a cold case detective.

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Andy Miller III: Before as a career, maybe still do so, but that was impart how you came to Christ So could you tell us a little bit of that story.

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J. Warner Wallace: yeah I just didn't know any other way to investigate a claim, so if you're going to tell me something happened.

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J. Warner Wallace: In the past, or I had a skill set in place, I could use to to look at the past and every event every crime as an event in the past, if you're investigating as a detective.

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J. Warner Wallace: just a matter of how far it is and in cold cases can be three four decades all where you don't have any access to eyewitnesses.

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J. Warner Wallace: You don't have any access to the report, writers, who first interviewed the eyewitnesses less kind of like the Gospels right you don't have any access to.

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J. Warner Wallace: Those people who saw Jesus, and you don't even have the access to the people who wrote about what they saw about Jesus.

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J. Warner Wallace: So we just have to kind of make an effort to figure out what is how do we test the reliability and I did all that in a book called.

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J. Warner Wallace: cold case Christianity and I wrote about it, I was about 35 when I first began that process, you know it wasn't raised in an environment with Christians.

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J. Warner Wallace: didn't really think that this was really even worth examining, to be honest, I thought it was so silly.

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J. Warner Wallace: Just wasn't something that was part of my life growing up, but my wife was interested in going to church once we had kids.

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J. Warner Wallace: And so I went and neither one of us on a Bible we didn't know anything really about anything so so it started a journey, for us, and, as I am, you know encountered Jesus, you know, the first pastor who I listened to was pretty clever and.

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J. Warner Wallace: It was somebody who, who was used to having a non believers in his congregation so he kind of saw every Sunday is like a harvest crusade, you know, like a like a like a billy Graham crusade or something.

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J. Warner Wallace: Just let's just preach the Gospel and and see who we are rain in and one of the things he said that, on this particular Sunday was he said that Jesus was smart now I was it was going to be another nine months, eight, nine months before I would ever.

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J. Warner Wallace: Consider Jesus to be anything more than just a fictional character on the pages of the Bible, but I spent that time really studying who Jesus was.

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J. Warner Wallace: And I had enough time at work, because I wasn't working in a position where I had downtime everyday.

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J. Warner Wallace: Working investigations that required us to be on surveillances that would put us in cars, where we're just sitting around waiting for somebody to move.

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J. Warner Wallace: And I used a lot of my my days off to just work and every morning before I would go to work to investigate this case.

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J. Warner Wallace: And, and one of the things I was looking at was not just what's in scripture because I didn't really trust the scripture.

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J. Warner Wallace: Is this stuff that that if imagine if you had no scripture at all because you're not want to open it you're not willing to trust it.

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J. Warner Wallace: Right what could you know about Jesus just from the world around us, so that if every New Testament had been destroyed, I would still be able to figure out who Jesus was just from the world around us and that's really what i'm trying to do in this book person of interest.

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Andy Miller III: Interested so that that challenge and it's funny you use the language smart and Jesus smart Dallas willard.

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Andy Miller III: kind of clued me into that saying that Jesus was the smartest person that ever live, and that was a you don't hear that, like holy as kind, as you know, most compassionate.

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Andy Miller III: sack self sacrifice sacrificial but not smart and so, but that kind of just that little challenges what led you to that place where you and, obviously, you went to a place and found it to be true.

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J. Warner Wallace: yeah I think I think you're right if if if.

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J. Warner Wallace: That pastor has said that he was all those other things I wouldn't have been interested because it selfishly.

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J. Warner Wallace: Those those notions to may seem very religious you know he's the holiest or he's that to me okay what what's your definition of holy and why do you think you know that whatever, but when you say smart, most of us even non believers have some understanding what that might mean.

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J. Warner Wallace: And I would love to have the wisdom of a smart.

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J. Warner Wallace: wouldn't would like to have somebody say hey that guy's the smartest guy so i'm willing to steal the wisdom of others if you'll help me be the smartest guy in the room and that's really what got me started it was just that you know what's so smart about Jesus of Nazareth.

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Andy Miller III: yeah so when you did went through that it was really looking at the evidence that brought you to faith in Christ.

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J. Warner Wallace: yeah well I always say it this way, look at something it's.

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J. Warner Wallace: How I usually put it is, it seems to me that God has within his power to have every one of us born with the innate knowledge of the Gospel and Jesus.

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J. Warner Wallace: Okay, but that isn't the way it works right and also he could also flip that switch so that, when he decides to call us we automatically in a dream or in our consciousness, have the complete full understanding of the gospel.

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J. Warner Wallace: But that doesn't work that way either instead what it is, is he uses humans to communicate something.

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J. Warner Wallace: That once God is kind of softened our heart to that message that we are able to hear and and and think about and consider seriously.

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J. Warner Wallace: Now, for me, as a guy who was everything was about the evidence that's the kind of that's a job, I was doing that I thought everything had to be grounded in some form of evidence, but luckily for me Jesus felt the same way.

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J. Warner Wallace: Jesus often was say it this way, he he would go into a city and he would first heal and then he would Harold.

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J. Warner Wallace: Why that order because he says in john chapter 10 chapter 14 over and over again he'll say if you don't believe it the words i'm saying at least believe on the evidence of the miracles i've worked in front of you.

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J. Warner Wallace: wow right and then, when you have john the Baptist has got an issue and needs good wonders is Jesus, the one he sends his disciples to Jesus he's in prison is this apples come and say Jesus said john wants to know, are you the one I think at that point.

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J. Warner Wallace: you're going to hear the heart of Jesus on how do you deal with doubt.

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J. Warner Wallace: How do you deal with this moment of crisis.

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J. Warner Wallace: Because you could easily have said hey you know what pray about it.

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J. Warner Wallace: You know me well enough that if you just pray about it, God will answer that prayer and he couldn't because he knows you know better he's my cousin he grew up with me he's one of baptize me you saw that instead, what he tells the disciples you've seen the miracles.

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J. Warner Wallace: Right go back on tell john what you just saw I feel I feel the sake, you know the death lame.

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J. Warner Wallace: All of that that's a very evidential approach to say look there's this thing we call that that's called indirect evidence the miracles, or we could consider indirect evidence and just to say hey you know the this is this proves my deity.

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J. Warner Wallace: Right, and this is why it says in acts Chapter one Luke says that Jesus spent 40 days with the disciples after the resurrection.

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J. Warner Wallace: Right, giving them many convincing proofs that were approved in the Greek is it where is often used for evidence well, what do you need really what evidence, do you need you've already risen from the grave yet Jesus spends another 40 days, giving them convincing evidence.

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J. Warner Wallace: So he can Commission them as I witnesses that's called direct evidence.

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J. Warner Wallace: So they can then tell the world what they saw even when Thomas but says, you know.

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J. Warner Wallace: finger is a you know blessed are those who have not seen it yet believe.

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J. Warner Wallace: Well, but how they how they going to believe, because you as an eyewitness that's called direct evidence, are going to testify about this.

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J. Warner Wallace: So even that statement, which seems rather anti evidential blessed are those who have not seen yet believe well how they're going to believe is based on your testimony so you're right back into the evidence again.

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Andy Miller III: yeah, so I think, in the end this view that I took.

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J. Warner Wallace: Was it was helpful to know as an early investigator of Christianity that Jesus took this approach because it seemed to me that's what I would expect right.

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J. Warner Wallace: yeah I knew a lot of religious people who would say things like hey just need to read my spiritual text.

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J. Warner Wallace: Right read this scripture pray about it, and God will confirm it for you and some mysterious one.

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J. Warner Wallace: yeah, this is by, for example, what mormon missionary.

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J. Warner Wallace: Colleague and I asked you to do at their door.

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J. Warner Wallace: Right, it was comforting to see that was never jesus's approach.

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J. Warner Wallace: Yes, gave me enough reason to believe.

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J. Warner Wallace: And that's what I think was got me started.

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Andy Miller III: I love it love this the inductive approach.

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Andy Miller III: yeah I I work and teach it was the typical seminary and our method for hermeneutics call induct inductive Bible studies should we take the next that we have and we pull as much out of it, as we can.

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Andy Miller III: But there's also value to come in from this deed active method as well and that's what's so intriguing to me about your new book person of interest and what what.

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Andy Miller III: What I see coming to this, particularly in the later chapters what you're trying to do is like if we did not have, and this was a part of your journey to, as you said, like.

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Andy Miller III: On a scene like waiting reading scripture figure out what's going on, even if we did not have the Texas scripture and don't hear me or or Jim was saying, like we're trying to get rid of.

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Andy Miller III: The script right right right, but even if we didn't have it, that we could construct the reality of the Gospel and the historical reality of it now.

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Andy Miller III: That seems to be one of the main can picture your book it's like and you use a lot it's interesting to me, you have illustrations throughout the book that are hand drawn, but you use illustration of a fallout.

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Andy Miller III: As if there's like a bomb that goes off and that sets up the way that you describe the effects of Jesus, could you describe that a little bit for us.

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J. Warner Wallace: yeah So if you know we've had this national case right now, and this missing woman who's the founder body and now they're looking at the suspect the boyfriend okay so.

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J. Warner Wallace: i've done a bunch of these missing body homicides where you don't ever recover the body, so now you have this guy says that she ran off or all she's missing well I don't know where she is.

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J. Warner Wallace: And you don't have in some some, for whatever reason for some period of time people believe that they can't find the body and then i've got somewhere they don't never find the body 30 years later, the body's still missing.

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J. Warner Wallace: So what now, but time you're working the case you know he's moved the House has been remodeled no one ever took a picture of the crime scene, because it wasn't considered a murder, back then, it was considered a missing person she ran off.

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J. Warner Wallace: If they can convince us that she ran up when they were even take a photograph so now, how do you solve the case in which you have no evidence from the crime scene, you have no crime scene, you have no body.

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J. Warner Wallace: What is how you do it, you tell the jury look if, on that day she went missing quote unquote she was actually killed by her husband or her boyfriend.

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J. Warner Wallace: yeah something explosive happened.

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J. Warner Wallace: But every bomb is preceded by a fuse that burns up to the explosion of the bomb after the bomb detonates you got shrapnel and debris all over the blast radius.

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J. Warner Wallace: So you can make a case and determine what happened on the day she went missing by simply investigating the fuse and the fallout in the timeline.

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J. Warner Wallace: And so it turns out, if you are not willing to look at any evidence in the crime scene of the Gospels you are not willing to look at the Gospels you assume they've all been destroyed.

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J. Warner Wallace: In some nefarious future dystopian world or you just for the sake of argument I don't want to get any information from the Gospels all right, well, you can still make the case for Jesus his historicity.

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J. Warner Wallace: His existence his deity you can do all of this just from the fuse and the fallout of history, so that second half of the book is about the fallout, and again i'm not just looking for areas that he deeply impacted.

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J. Warner Wallace: i'm looking for areas, he deeply impacted, so much so that he left his fingerprints, so I can reconstruct the story of Jesus from simply those aspects of culture.

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J. Warner Wallace: That we all take for granted, we don't even realize sometimes how much.

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J. Warner Wallace: Jesus was involved and the things that you take for granted as an atheist, if you have a high value, I was an artist before I was a detective so you're going to look at what art.

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J. Warner Wallace: I love music, literature education was important to me, I have a masters in architecture, before I even started the word the job.

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J. Warner Wallace: And you know science is important, I can when I grew up, I thought science would eventually answer every big question in life, well, it turns out those five things.

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J. Warner Wallace: are so deeply indebted to the Christian worldview established by Jesus and enacted by his followers.

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J. Warner Wallace: That we wouldn't be where we are today in any of those five areas if not for Jesus and his followers who has that kind of impact it wasn't Buddha and his followers it wasn't Confucius and his followers.

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J. Warner Wallace: It was Jesus and his followers I think about that for a second guess give you an example of this, if you're just looking at science alone, it turns out that the.

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J. Warner Wallace: Science scientific revolution of the 16th and 17th century is dominated by Christians in Europe in that period of time, known as Christian done.

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J. Warner Wallace: And you think well yeah because everyone in Europe as a Christian, but no, no it's not true, you have to say is everyone in the world, a Christian then know.

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J. Warner Wallace: There are larger people groups that are not Christian, then there are there are Christian, yet the sciences exploded within the smaller population of Christians.

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J. Warner Wallace: Rather than in the larger population.

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J. Warner Wallace: say, for example in Asia Persia it all the other locations that were non Christian the sizes did not explode their exploded in European Christian them.

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J. Warner Wallace: Because the Christian worldview sets the table for scientific discovery, in a way that other worldviews simply do not.

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J. Warner Wallace: Then I talked about that in the book and then you can look and trace this it turns out that the science fathers, the fathers of the major scientific disciplines, whether there's ones that are called fathers, mothers founders.

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J. Warner Wallace: The initiators of the major modern scientific disciplines from the modern discipline of chemistry and astronomy all the way to quantum mechanics whatever those things are in between.

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J. Warner Wallace: you'll see, I have a list of this in the book it's the only list I really put I didn't get to the end notes or to the case notes I didn't kick it out there, because I wanted people to see.

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J. Warner Wallace: Just just to kind of scan the pages after page after page of scientific disciplines, all of which were founded by a Christ follower.

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J. Warner Wallace: We have dominated the sciences, from start to finish, know you can make a decision today in 2021 if we don't want to dominate the sciences anymore.

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J. Warner Wallace: But that would have to make via it would have to we'd have to deny our historical involvement in the sciences is what's powerful about it.

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J. Warner Wallace: Is that every one of these major scientists in history, that was a Christ follower.

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J. Warner Wallace: So many of them had personal journals in which they express that press their devotion to so you can collect their journals on astronomy, but you can also collect their journals on Jesus, and you from those personal journals can reconstruct the entire story of Jesus.

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J. Warner Wallace: Interesting versus events i've got an entire list of what can be you can actually reconstruct as much, if not more about Jesus from the science fathers, then you can from the church fathers in the first four centuries.

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J. Warner Wallace: So it turns out that sciences are so potent that again you have to destroy really the history of science, in order to wipe Jesus from the map in that one area.

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Andy Miller III: So it's so interesting like what I would be kind of answer, why is going to ask it so some people might say or skeptic might say, well.

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Andy Miller III: Okay you're you're you can say that all these people are Christians but everybody was a Christian, it was a cultural expectation.

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Andy Miller III: To be a follower of Jesus, in that sense, and it was just that, if they were around today they wouldn't, be they wouldn't be Christians, but what you're saying if i'm.

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Andy Miller III: Correct me if i'm wrong is that if you look at what they did they were doing an in service of the church and they were really articulating why they were doing what they're doing because of the impact of Jesus as.

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J. Warner Wallace: Well, so you can say okay.

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J. Warner Wallace: So everyone in Europe and the 16th and 17th century was was a Christian because that's not actually true but, even if it was just for sake of argument if every single living breathing human.

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J. Warner Wallace: In Europe there are no Jewish believers, there are no agnostics there are no people who are just benign on the whole issue, everyone is a devoted Christ follower which is not true, but if it was.

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J. Warner Wallace: that's still not the whole world, the question is, why is it that science begins in European Christian them and not in some other worldview that preceded Jesus in a different location and the world, you know Buddhism began it begins.

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J. Warner Wallace: Before shanty Hinduism begins before Christianity, you know, there are lots of theistic worldviews that.

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J. Warner Wallace: Pre existed Christianity, yet that is not, they were not the catalyst for the explosion in the sciences that Christianity, was to deny that it look I get it, you can argue this for some other reason but to deny that this is a unique feature of Christian history is to not know your history.

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Andy Miller III: wow so you you go through several other areas, and you mentioned, you had five of them, like, for instance, you brought up music.

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Andy Miller III: So, like you see this saints are influenced this this fallout in music like if Jesus had non existent you wouldn't have this fallout, so instead we assume Jesus did exist and that the events of his life were our historical So what are what are some examples from music.

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J. Warner Wallace: Well, so for us so we're trying to reconstruct the story of Jesus, and we have no snow Christian scriptures from which to do that.

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J. Warner Wallace: Well then, we want to get as close as we can to the advance of jesus's life, well then we're going to start, I always say that that that period of time.

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J. Warner Wallace: In Christian history in the Roman Empire before Christianity becomes the religion of the empire, because up until the edict of Milan.

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J. Warner Wallace: were some hostility lots of hostility toward Christians, the effect of Milan and that hostility the edict of vessel Annika so we're looking at the early fourth century for both of these that ultimately creates.

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J. Warner Wallace: establishes Christianity as a religion of vampire but up to that point you have a Evan Evan flow of persecution and intolerance toward Christians some higher levels than others, depending on the Emperor okay.

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J. Warner Wallace: It seems to me that I could argue well the power corrupts so once.

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J. Warner Wallace: Power is involved with Christianity, of the Roman Empire in the Roman Catholic churches in place, how do we know that the story hasn't been corrupted some like his power corrupts.

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J. Warner Wallace: Well let's take a look only that the story and the information that's available to us in the first three centuries before any of that occurs.

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J. Warner Wallace: So i'm looking at the anti icing church fathers, for example in that period of time before it becomes the religion of the empire.

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J. Warner Wallace: And if all you did was look at the music the hymns that were son, in the first 300 400 years right in that range, you can reconstruct the entire story of Jesus just from hymns that are being sung by the Church.

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J. Warner Wallace: So there's a lot more in terms of document evidence you're going to have to destroy.

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J. Warner Wallace: Because now there's an entire body of music and not only that the Christian worldview, has always been a singing worldview.

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J. Warner Wallace: let's fast forward to the 21st century, here we are in America in the 21st century now let's ask this question what one place in culture, what one aspect of culture, what one group within culture.

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J. Warner Wallace: gets up on a stage in front of an audience every weekend and sings.

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J. Warner Wallace: Okay that's that's Christianity okay.

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J. Warner Wallace: And that singing congregation is where you have no idea how many people in pop culture started off seen worship songs in there somewhere right, and then the end up singing because we have a culture of developing singers and often today.

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J. Warner Wallace: Even stage performers Okay, who are singing in front of a group and musicians, and this has always been the case, remember david's writing songs.

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J. Warner Wallace: And the part of the Jewish tradition, we think that Jesus is probably singing one of the Psalms.

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J. Warner Wallace: boy, it was at the lord's supper which Solomon is is the question but that and then Paul says, you know you should be singing and spiritual songs and hymns, and this is a tradition that begins very early.

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J. Warner Wallace: And so there becomes a certain technological need to advance the cause of music as congregation as you grow as your REACH is getting larger and so you'll see, for example, that the first people who designed musical notation.

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Andy Miller III: Right.

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J. Warner Wallace: yeah it's a Christ follower the people who start to move in minor and major scales, those are Christ followers the people who move from single.

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J. Warner Wallace: singing acapella to instrumentation those are Christ followers people who start to work on harmonization of voices and of melodies.

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J. Warner Wallace: Those are Christ followers so it turns out that all of the little technical adaptations over history that we now see in modern music have their roots in the work of people who are in service of the church often or in.

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J. Warner Wallace: service of Christian groups of one nature or another.

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J. Warner Wallace: And so, this is what's so interesting we are indebted to Jesus in his followers for where we are as matter of fact, so indebted that if you look and he still inspires so many.

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J. Warner Wallace: singers and songwriters in pop music, so, if you look at all the forms of contemporary pop music and there's lists out there, the top 100 artists in the last 100 years.

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J. Warner Wallace: And they're all different hip hop and r&b and country and pop and you just they're all different genres okay.

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J. Warner Wallace: So I went in there and got all these lists and I made a master list there's a lot of overlap, but it's about 150 artists total that you see there consistently mentioned.

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J. Warner Wallace: And I simply search their catalogs I found that all but to had a song in which they saying about Jesus, and it wasn't always like you know flattering I mean you know frank zappa's got a song, you know Jesus thinks you're a jerk.

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J. Warner Wallace: Some are pretty funny.

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J. Warner Wallace: But the point is, people are inspired or inferior or motivated Jesus is one of those by the way, can you say this about any other historical figure.

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Andy Miller III: Try this.

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J. Warner Wallace: music.

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Andy Miller III: or in person in history.

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J. Warner Wallace: Right you nobody else has this kind of stature with musicians, nobody else is so inspiring that toward musicians and when you see it visually when you see the list.

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J. Warner Wallace: And you look at the songs that we're talking about here, it is staggering and and I think it's helpful for us to see lists like that's why I try to make so many illustrations you know.

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J. Warner Wallace: I basically take the same approach, I take in front of a jury, I know that sometimes to make a decision about a case journeys to see it, they need to see I see what you mean.

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J. Warner Wallace: And I get it, you know that was an overwhelming case, I can see the cumulative nature of the case so you'll see them my illustrations.

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J. Warner Wallace: are just straight out of the kind of presentations I would make in front of a jury, as a matter of fact.

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J. Warner Wallace: Just this week, we opened up an offer on our website at person of interest book.com for anyone who buys and reviews the book.

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J. Warner Wallace: we're going to send them a 525 slide PowerPoint that just physically, so that all those illustrations are available, so you can see how to make that case visually for others.

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Andy Miller III: So i've seen in the book, it seems like almost every page now I only have electronic copy but seems like every page has some sort of graphic component to it.

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J. Warner Wallace: yeah That was my hope and i'll tell you something reason why I did this, yes I learned yeah my drawing so the reason why I did that, as I learned something from doing kids books.

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J. Warner Wallace: Your kids books, the ratio of illustrations two pictures is about one to one, so if you've got you don't want to I always say I don't want a single page to be turned in a kids book without an illustration of some sort of some sort.

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J. Warner Wallace: Some graphic material.

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J. Warner Wallace: And I had the same goal with this book right now, I have some pages, where there are lists.

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J. Warner Wallace: So I don't have an illustration there, but we have we tried to make sure that you know 400 illustrations only 250 pages.

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J. Warner Wallace: So we're looking at trying to make sure that there's an illustration on almost every call some places it's two to three on one page because we've got some pages with the list so that's a different kind of a graphical approach but.

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J. Warner Wallace: Show me the graphic design of interiors on the books as just as important as the content, so I first start the content and then I moved toward me, we spent three months, illustrating this book.

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Andy Miller III: wow so France i'm Jay wondering was on the podcast with me here and his new book person of interest and we're really excited that zondervan the publisher is making.

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Andy Miller III: Five of these books available for my listeners so here's what you can do.

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Andy Miller III: If you take a minute, and you share a link to this on your social media they're like so you go and find this on YouTube or apple podcast you can share a link you'll be entered into a prize to win one of these, or you can leave a comment.

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Andy Miller III: On the YouTube channel as well, so there's two ways, you can when you can share link and those make sure we know it, and then we'll have a drawing to see you come in and so thanks so much zondervan for making that happen and for for Jim for you, helping.

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Andy Miller III: Make that move along.

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J. Warner Wallace: To so we can get your word.

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Andy Miller III: out about.

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Andy Miller III: These books.

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Andy Miller III: it's such an encouraging thing to think about the impact of Jesus as a whole and the way you're describing this now.

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Andy Miller III: You were just talking about the way the less should have way you've gone about this, and part of our audience our ministers and we just had a podcast not long ago, where we had two episodes talking to people about the use.

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Andy Miller III: Of illustrations and how important is in you were you were just saying that to you want every page to have it i'm just curious what type of this is off to someone in your book will get back to the book what type of advice, do you have.

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Andy Miller III: For preachers like when you travel around a lot, a lot of times you're probably the speaker, but you have you have some something that you'd say preachers about the use of illustrations or what is it that you'd like to say to us preachers.

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J. Warner Wallace: Oh well, I came from you know my work you just know I am entirely a visual and i've done trials in front of juries where we didn't use graphics in any way.

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J. Warner Wallace: And I just don't think there is effective, I think that there's I teach a course on this at Viola, then I call this segment of the course death by PowerPoint because you can ruin a presentation.

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J. Warner Wallace: Using PowerPoint, so I will use PowerPoint as a frame.

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J. Warner Wallace: But i'm trying to develop what's basically flip animation and using visual arts in a way that's very non PowerPoint like okay.

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J. Warner Wallace: So i'm a big believer in using visual presentations as a matter of fact, what I typically tell people is that if I come and speak at your church.

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J. Warner Wallace: it'll be an entirely visual presentation and I don't want to see my face on any of it, because you need to see what we're doing visually you won't make any sense and audio recording of this presentation.

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J. Warner Wallace: will make no sense at all, because a lot of what i'm going to be saying i'm going to say with images i'm not going to say it with words.

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J. Warner Wallace: I don't use a script I just I know what's gonna i'm just walking people through a step by step, video experience right imagine if you could stop and start the video experience i'm going to narrate that for you, but you're going to be watching this on the screen.

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J. Warner Wallace: And it's going to start saying and I open my mouth and i'll go all the way until I am.

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J. Warner Wallace: As a matter of fact, I asked on our event would you give me two years to build the stage presentations for this book i'm gonna have to build I think like 10.

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J. Warner Wallace: Right three for the fuse one for the fullness of time and should explains why Jesus came when he did, and then you know you know, five or six for the end of the book and so.

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J. Warner Wallace: They allowed me two years to do it, and when I got done, I had these huge color you know gigabytes of presentations.

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J. Warner Wallace: And I knew I couldn't put those in the book was there's no way we can afford to do that, so I knew I needed to read cast those as line drawings.

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J. Warner Wallace: So what we have in the book are really my visual presentations reduced to line drawings, so that you can print them in a book right.

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J. Warner Wallace: without having to print photographs of the color work so so i'm so committed to this process that I really write this way i've always discovery, if you can do this in front of an audience look I.

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J. Warner Wallace: I will assemble an approach and it'll might take me a week to do it's going to be a 32nd sequence.

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J. Warner Wallace: When I spend 40 hours building it and then I do it in front of an audience and I realized, you know it doesn't work.

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J. Warner Wallace: wow I thought it would work in my mind, I thought this is going to be very powerful and then, when I get up there, my guys that's Okay, but.

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J. Warner Wallace: Okay, no cutting it.

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J. Warner Wallace: Well, those things don't make it into a book, but I need time to do this in front of an audience visually so I can see what should be included and so you'll just you'll see in the book typically is you know all the hopefully you have enough time to take the failure stuff out.

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Andy Miller III: Oh interesting hey I like to just the way that your desire is truly they connect to people like whatever it's going to take to make that impression, using all the skills and things now, this is connected to to make.

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Andy Miller III: The next subject I wanted to cover i'm sorry to spend as much time on the fuse and Jesus.

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Andy Miller III: I mean.

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Andy Miller III: By like me, maybe we have time to get back there, but I was really intrigued by this like when you talk about art and here you are talking about your.

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Andy Miller III: own artistic approach but you're thinking through our history, what it is like you can see again that fallout after the fuse after the coming of Jesus, you can see the fallout of jesus's influence in the world of art.

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J. Warner Wallace: yeah it's it's just it's probably even more incredible than it is in the music so So if you look, you can reconstruct I did this in the book, I tried to show and.

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J. Warner Wallace: The there's a case note file that's a PDF file it's available on our website that case note file.

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J. Warner Wallace: I think only about 50 pages of case notes or in the end of the book, the other 279 pages of case notes or a PDF file this downloadable from our website, because I knew that I was going to include, for example.

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J. Warner Wallace: You can reconstruct the entire gospel of mark episode by episode just from art done by.

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J. Warner Wallace: Christians right and the first before the Middle Ages, so what you have is the ability to read you have to you have to destroy every one of those buildings and surfaces.

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J. Warner Wallace: In order to get rid of the Jesus story because it's, not just on the pages of scripture and I only use mark, because I knew it would be the least amount of work he sure does Gospel, but you can do this every Gospel OK.

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J. Warner Wallace: OK, so I have a list of all of the pieces of art that reconstruct in sequence from the opening lines of mark to the ending lines of mark every sequence every.

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J. Warner Wallace: episode in mark, so you can see that this is how much has been covered by this cannot be said of any other sacred texts.

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J. Warner Wallace: That it can be said, why is it that it's so inspiring as matter of fact.

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J. Warner Wallace: If you look at the history of artists and I don't care which genre of art history you're looking at from antiquity, all the way through to modern pop art impressionism along the way.

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J. Warner Wallace: Whatever your form of art and i've got the entire list and the book if you just Google this for the top three artists in each genre.

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J. Warner Wallace: And each historical period you'll get three artists.

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J. Warner Wallace: Or you can do five if you want to get the three, you will find that every single one of the top three artists in every historical period of art history.

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J. Warner Wallace: has painted etch a sketch or drawn Jesus of Nazareth as an inspiration, including warhol or you anyone, you can think of who's in that top section.

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J. Warner Wallace: Of these historic periods and it's not just a Western phenomenon, because i've got an A to Z catalog in the book that shows you out globally Jesus has influenced the arts and what's interesting about Jesus.

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J. Warner Wallace: Is that he's an adaptable savior in the sense that because God has created all of us in the image his image we are all equally image bearers.

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J. Warner Wallace: And regardless will be might look like, or what culture we might be in or what race or ethnicity, we are, we are all equal image bearers and so what's interesting about that is that if you move around the world.

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J. Warner Wallace: And look at like paintings or sculptures of the Buddha they will look pretty much the.

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Andy Miller III: same jesting yeah.

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J. Warner Wallace: Right, if you look at paintings and sculptures and drawings of Jesus he looks like the ethnicity, of whatever area he's in.

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J. Warner Wallace: crowd very differently may have facial hair may not have facial hair, I mean he adapts because we see him.

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J. Warner Wallace: As the savior the second Adam and we all are just sending it from the first Adam.

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J. Warner Wallace: And so we simply see him in our form because here in the image of God is like much as anybody other race is in the image of God, and he adapts and so you'll see that artists, then, are inspired within their cultural context to depict Jesus within their cultural context.

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J. Warner Wallace: yeah and that's why you see so much creativity it's not as though I have to change and learn the customs of you know, fifth century BC Persia in order to adopt.

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J. Warner Wallace: My you this theistic view.

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J. Warner Wallace: No instead Jesus comes into the 19th century comes into the 10th century wherever you are in the world, and you start to envision him in the context of your setting and that inspires art in a way that's unparalleled.

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Andy Miller III: It shows how the Gospel is translatable like his is.

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J. Warner Wallace: Like that's right.

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Andy Miller III: same thing is it and other religions, you don't have the same thing, where a that's a cultures What a beautiful way to think about that, and how that helps us again like wait what you're doing by highlighting the influence of Jesus in art or music, is it not saying Andy warhol was a Christian.

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Andy Miller III: No, but but Andy warhol Paul had to deal with this.

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J. Warner Wallace: Big yes right the same way that the musicians, who are non Christians made us Jesus pro family in their music.

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J. Warner Wallace: But they don't ignore Jesus they see the power in the profane use of Jesus, just as somebody who's inspired by Jesus sees the power of his inspiration.

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J. Warner Wallace: That to me is fascinating because it's unique to historical figures now, this is why i'm where i'm going with this, but we're saying if you're arguing that a another mere human.

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J. Warner Wallace: In the history of Brazilians of humans had this kind of inspirational impact on history, the question would be why.

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Andy Miller III: Why.

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J. Warner Wallace: Yes, yeah So if you just another ancient sage from the first century.

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J. Warner Wallace: And I list all of the other important people from the first century in the book in the last chapter i've given you a list if you're wondering what who is it that changes.

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Andy Miller III: His research and that night there's hampers there's other poets and there's other sages and that list as well you know, none of them, you probably recognize because they didn't have the impact combined that Jesus had.

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J. Warner Wallace: And I looked at all the other world leaders throughout the history of world leaders i've got the top I think 20 or 30 on that list.

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J. Warner Wallace: They haven't had this impact on history, the other deities and religious leaders haven't had this impact, even the other people who claim to be the Jewish Messiah Messiah and I include that list as well.

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J. Warner Wallace: How is it that this guy has this kind of impact, and if you really think about who he is and who he wasn't never did anything significant and the world's views of significant and never let a nation or rule the nation or lead an army or.

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J. Warner Wallace: or wrote a book or formed a company or had a family of his own and a legacy of children never had an education, he could boast about never wrote a concert, this is not somebody who has all doesn't have a Twitter platform does not.

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J. Warner Wallace: social media right.

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Andy Miller III: yeah I never even had a home, you could say was his he only born in some small insignificant town and raised in another small insignificant town and never traveled more than about.

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Andy Miller III: 200 miles anywhere and and you only had three years in which you had a Public Ministry this guy who was pursued by people who had power.

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Andy Miller III: and rejected by people who are religious and denied and betrayed by the people who said they loved him and then falsely accused and mocked and brutally beaten and executed unfairly and then have to borrow a grave to be buried, this is the guy.

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J. Warner Wallace: impacts every aspect of human history so deeply that they're forever changed, and you can reconstruct His story from the fingerprints, he left, how do you explain that.

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J. Warner Wallace: If he's just another human that's why I think you know, of course, if he's got.

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J. Warner Wallace: Entry industry his own creation.

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J. Warner Wallace: Well, that would expect no less.

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J. Warner Wallace: Right and, and this is why I think that this is a good evidence for the Deity of Christ.

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Andy Miller III: wow I love, how you put all that, together, this is it made again i'm with Jay wondering, while still want encourage people to check out his book person interest, where he goes through all of this in detail and we're offering our listeners.

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Andy Miller III: Free copies of this if you enter our contest so just share social media link, or if you go onto YouTube.

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Andy Miller III: make a comment that will be something that we can do it enter you into the contest to win one of these books and I had on podcast your friend frank terrific yeah.

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Andy Miller III: And I actually just spoken in a day or come out at a different time, but he did something similar what you're doing here so often what he'll do if somebody complains about the about evil.

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Andy Miller III: exists, the existence of evil in the world, he turns it around pretty quickly and says, well, what do you mean by evil.

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Andy Miller III: Right.

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Andy Miller III: Right right hey here's the you're kind of saying like okay you don't you don't affirm these things of the historical record about Jesus or his divinity but you do seem to think he was an influential person and why, would you sing about him why would you write about it.

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Andy Miller III: right kind of.

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Andy Miller III: turn the question around like it seems like he's had a pretty big influence so you and frank, have a lot in common.

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J. Warner Wallace: Well yeah we're very good friends and i'll tell you this is a good point you're making because you can say look so why are you singing about they did the first comebacks going to be well because I was raised in the last.

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J. Warner Wallace: But the question isn't but because I get it, you were raised in a world that was deeply influenced by Jesus so now in that deeply influenced world you end up singing about him, the question is, though, why is the world deeply influenced by Jesus.

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J. Warner Wallace: Yes, the question is, why is it, this is the environment, you find yourself in.

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J. Warner Wallace: that's, the question we have to ask right so it's a more foundational question right that's a pretty kind of putting the cart before the horse.

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Andy Miller III: You want to and that's what the by looking at the fallout you're going back to that original event and that's totally unique it's like.

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Andy Miller III: We we believe we have a historical faith that we can describe all sorts of things we want to about theology, and how we.

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Andy Miller III: Come to articulate our faith but at some point, like what makes Christianity distinct it's his with all these things have historical reference.

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Andy Miller III: And so we point back to those moments, and everything you highlight to its architecture and the development of architecture, could you talk about that a little I know we only have so much longer, but I want to, I want to make sure to get a little bit of that and I found that so interesting.

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J. Warner Wallace: yeah and maybe this is just me and my sweet spot because I was an archetype before I became a police officer, but for a lot of this is that you find yourself.

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J. Warner Wallace: There the evolution of of churches, for example, is a direct product of trying to elevate two aspects of the Christian story right when they first started meeting there, and these Palestine Palestinian.

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J. Warner Wallace: Jerusalem area and they're in the areas where the mud structures are really the building materials are so primitive enough.

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J. Warner Wallace: That you have thick walls and cool interiors that's good in a hot region, but they are kind of dark and so the question becomes, how do we, you know Jesus is the light of the world, how do we have an environment is a little brighter than this and we're looking celebrating our.

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J. Warner Wallace: Union with God in heaven these spaces are not heavenly on are not bright so there's a movement in architecture to get as a spaces get bigger to figure out ways to make these more heavenly and lighter.

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J. Warner Wallace: And so what you'll start to see is that the walls are in the ceilings are the focus of most early church architecture.

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J. Warner Wallace: Looking upward and heavenly the first churches are pretty much like you know simple Gable roofs and simple spanning roofs and they're not much to look at.

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J. Warner Wallace: But Dome architecture evolves pretty quickly within Christendom because that gives us an opportunity to light the ceilings and a heavenly way and most dumbs in the early church.

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J. Warner Wallace: Were painted with heavenly the pictures to depict the heavens, and then you have a walls, of course, then, how do I support this tall huge expansive ceiling.

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J. Warner Wallace: yeah got these walls, I mean they gotta be pretty thick right masonry but it turns out when they start designing flying buttresses and the Gothic period.

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J. Warner Wallace: they're able to take it and create a secondary wall, supported by these flying buttresses which are still not have made it a masonry.

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J. Warner Wallace: But the secondary wall now can be class because I don't not supporting the roof anymore, the buttresses are supporting the roof.

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J. Warner Wallace: And the interior walls, then give you these large places for glass and on those stain an entire genre of art in stained glass now begins to evolve, because we are getting the light spaces.

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J. Warner Wallace: That look more, and they are those some of those churches are absolutely haven't laid because they have been so they become conservatories for the arts.

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J. Warner Wallace: a place where Christians need.

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J. Warner Wallace: To do to view the art about Jesus and the story of Jesus can be reconstructed from any of these churches.

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J. Warner Wallace: And to sing about Jesus so there's this effort to design churches that are acoustically pleasing as well.

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J. Warner Wallace: And this is the kind of thing that is just further advances the other two things we talked about which is art and music you spaces became the place where a Christian art and music could thrive.

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Andy Miller III: it's now it's interesting there's a move, of course, to be incredibly functional.

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Andy Miller III: And in my denomination I Salvation Army there's some of that but yeah we're a very visual organization, I see even behind you, I see some police hats.

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Andy Miller III: which looks a lot like a Salvation Army cats right and we will be out in public and we we say we would have the Cathedral of the open air.

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Andy Miller III: In the early days of our movement but.

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Andy Miller III: there's something interesting too about the move toward.

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Andy Miller III: instrumental functioning like that we're just functioning in a way, just to get the job done and even like have like the stereotypical and I don't mean to me this too much of a negative way like big box church right just get.

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Andy Miller III: Your House and let's just get people in and out, but we do we missed something by not having that sort of.

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J. Warner Wallace: It as a matter of fact, you know my wife was greater than a Catholic tradition and so she would have probably been Margaret cultural you know this kind of thing for me, I was willing to go into I didn't know what churches were out there.

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J. Warner Wallace: But I knew that you know the Catholic masses on Christmas Eve, and on Easter seem very traditional in these neighborhoods so i'm like okay so that's what this is about.

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J. Warner Wallace: It turns out, there is something very special about the tradition of church building that is very ancient you know starts very early and the more ancient traditions we have within Christendom.

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J. Warner Wallace: are still carry the remnants of that architectural progress right, and so you have cathedrals and so, if you've been spent time in any kind of Cathedral type setting.

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J. Warner Wallace: When you get into a big box and that's where we were when I first heard that preacher say that you know that Jesus was the smartest man who ever lived I remember walking in and my wife said, looking around going I don't know this doesn't seem very holy.

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J. Warner Wallace: shit, this is a God place this just seems like a God bless us market concert place.

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J. Warner Wallace: yeah and I thought okay I just didn't mean to me at that point as a lever I wasn't really my focus.

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J. Warner Wallace: Right didn't matter to me but but looking back at it, I think you get it once you have kind of studied the movement and it's so funny even before this is now probably in the late 90s.

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J. Warner Wallace: And when we were in the early 80s, we were touring Europe because susie was born there and we were going from one church to another Castle to another church to another castle.

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J. Warner Wallace: Studying architecture.

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J. Warner Wallace: And every other church every other building was a church.

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J. Warner Wallace: And I never thought.

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J. Warner Wallace: Really, about the influence of Christians, I was just looking at the kind of aesthetics and tracing from Gothic cathedrals to broke two different forms of architecture that are kind of historically displayed in different ways yeah and I was just absorbing that that difference right.

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J. Warner Wallace: That historical difference I wasn't paying attention to the fact that you realize that all of these were inspired by Jesus and his followers who are trying to do things.

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J. Warner Wallace: Trying to make this space reflect the nature of Jesus and the expectations of Christians in heaven and that's that's and you'll get into some of these spaces, where you're going to allow it feels otherworldly.

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J. Warner Wallace: Right, and that was really the goal and they achieved it many of those spaces.

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Andy Miller III: One of my favorite theologians will heart pounding greenberg and he says that he was converted watching the sunset.

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Andy Miller III: yeah yeah and there's there's something to that like.

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Andy Miller III: The way that we that we sense God and we.

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Andy Miller III: Experience him through creation through our through leisure through architecture.

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Andy Miller III: And again i'm not trying to it it's easy to pick on big churches, sometimes so i'm really not going to be, but I think your wife had an experience by being at these church growing up in the Catholic Church like that.

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Andy Miller III: It kind of cast her in a certain way now of course there's weaknesses to some of those more liturgical nominations like that.

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Andy Miller III: That shouldn't come about, certainly, but there is something to that as poker it speaks to your point like you realize i'm a part of something bigger here like.

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Andy Miller III: i'm a part of something that is it to the fallout i'm connected to something.

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Andy Miller III: That people believed happened enough that they built this building, and that they thought about how it was designed.

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J. Warner Wallace: yeah That is very true and I think also, if you think about it, there is a sense in which many young people, I think, are moving or are wanting to be connected to something larger.

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J. Warner Wallace: Right and and and those eight more ancient traditions are still attractive to people who want to see something transcendent in their tracks and worldview.

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J. Warner Wallace: Like we hold this view of God transcends time, yet we seem to be in this, you know very contemporary fleeting kind of structure that seems like it's just a moment.

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J. Warner Wallace: is just one rock and I stream that seems to be going by us right so, so I think there's a sense in which we want to be connected to something transcended that hasn't changed that like wouldn't you like to know, and this is when you study music.

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J. Warner Wallace: you realize that.

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J. Warner Wallace: That until musical notation was invented the words can be written down to hymns and to Psalms.

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J. Warner Wallace: Right, but you don't know what that psalm sounded like when David.

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J. Warner Wallace: was saying.

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J. Warner Wallace: You just know what the words are it turns out that this the melodies were communicated person to person, so the tradition how's that song go you just.

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J. Warner Wallace: sing it.

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J. Warner Wallace: The words you don't need to memorize that, but the song the melody you would transmit orally.

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J. Warner Wallace: Until musical notation was invented so so I always kind of think Okay, we got a written.

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J. Warner Wallace: document, here we have their written history of hymns we know what the hems words or in the first century, but we don't know what the music was in the first century, like, I want to know what the melody was.

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J. Warner Wallace: Right, and so you think Okay, so, if I can get into some Christian environment that's part of the most ancient traditions, what would those be there i'll be there Greek Orthodox or the big.

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J. Warner Wallace: Catholic in nature, if you hear the way the music is played there you kind of ask the question.

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Andy Miller III: Is this yeah.

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J. Warner Wallace: Is this close to what the first you know oral.

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J. Warner Wallace: traditions were about music about the melody would you like to know right, so I think there's a sense in which people are interested in that.

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J. Warner Wallace: It where i'm interested in, as we get.

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J. Warner Wallace: into the current the modern age, and especially in the social media age, I think everything has changed, and even the way that pastors lead churches has changed because we are a social media environment.

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J. Warner Wallace: And every pastor has got a platform every pastor has got some social media.

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J. Warner Wallace: And at some point we all shift toward it and we see our our platform growing on social media and you're thinking to yourself, really.

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J. Warner Wallace: Well, is this really now about church leadership, or is this about growing your social media platform.

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Andy Miller III: Right.

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J. Warner Wallace: As sad, as that is that's always a concern that I have right like where's this all headed.

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J. Warner Wallace: And I always think hey in the most ancient versions of the church those.

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J. Warner Wallace: I bet you there's probably not I could be wrong about this, but i'll bet you there's probably no Greek Orthodox priest who are leader within the church who's got a large social media platform and YouTube channel maybe i'm wrong.

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Andy Miller III: Okay yeah yeah i'm.

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J. Warner Wallace: always looking at hey is there still a version of Christianity out there.

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J. Warner Wallace: yeah where the leader is not trying to become an influencer.

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J. Warner Wallace: yeah social media, because I think that's corruptive.

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J. Warner Wallace: And I no worries corrosive I worry so i'm on I sometimes can see why people might be attracted to ancient forms, both because they are connected to the past, the transcendent nature of God and because they hopefully are not as corrupted by the moment we happen to be in culturally.

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Andy Miller III: Right and I hear that critique myself like it is certainly this balance, like you have something to say, but you know I had the last church I served before I came into the Academy, there was a Coptic Orthodox Church right around the corner.

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J. Warner Wallace: and

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Andy Miller III: You know, they just they kept it you really feel like when you walk in and you see what's happening in their worship man, this is this is connected the centuries, and we are just babies.

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J. Warner Wallace: yeah that's that's a great way to say it, and I think this is true for all of us like we all have to deal with this issue of what celebrity is doing to us on social media, I have the same problem.

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J. Warner Wallace: Like if you're writing books, you want people to read your book right.

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J. Warner Wallace: podcast you want people to find your podcast so we're all engaged in trying to reach the world using the mechanisms we have in place which, right now, or social media, so I get it.

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J. Warner Wallace: And this is now available to us in a way that the past only billy Graham maybe had access to the kind of media.

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J. Warner Wallace: By which you do preach the Gospel now every one of us has access to that.

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J. Warner Wallace: Right, and so I think it is a challenge, can be a challenge for us going forward.

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Andy Miller III: yeah Well, unfortunately I have to close out here, but.

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Andy Miller III: Jim like one of the questions I asked everybody is.

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Andy Miller III: That this podcast is called more to the story, and we do that kind of like theological tradition, where and emphasizes the doctrine sanctification.

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Andy Miller III: That there's more than just getting saved that God wants to make us holy but at the same time, I wonder if there's more to the story.

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Andy Miller III: Of Jim wallace like Is there something that you don't often get a talk about that you're really passionate about like maybe you like to you have a collection of something or you're really interested so what's what's more this story of Jim.

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J. Warner Wallace: Well Okay, so there is, but I do talk about it once in a while so i'm not sure it's like a secret.

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Andy Miller III: Okay it's Okay, but yeah.

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J. Warner Wallace: yeah yeah normally you know i'm pretty pretty locked in on what I do now.

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J. Warner Wallace: And i've always been this way that you don't get I think probably you don't start to succeed in any of these things if you aren't completely devoted and locked into them, so if you're working in case you asked my family it's like Amazon okay it's just it's to tell that thing is over.

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J. Warner Wallace: that's like i'm just going to be checked out for a while trying to work this case and hopefully it doesn't take too long, so so that, but the thing I think is.

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J. Warner Wallace: So I think that the Gospel has the singular power to change the world the Gospel addresses every kind of Stupid that's in the world today.

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J. Warner Wallace: So whatever the issues that need to be fixed whatever stupid thing that's irritating you trust me the Gospel would fix it if we all embrace the Gospel how we treat each other.

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J. Warner Wallace: How the world functions, a lot of stuff would change if all of us would truly embrace the Gospel but outside the Gospel there's one more thing I think that would change culture pretty fast it's marriage.

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J. Warner Wallace: We have moved away.

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J. Warner Wallace: From marriage as a traditional view of marriage.

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J. Warner Wallace: We have moved away so really since.

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J. Warner Wallace: Probably in America at least since no fault divorce.

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J. Warner Wallace: right was popularized under Ronald Reagan who who always considered to be his biggest mistake here in the state of California, is where it.

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J. Warner Wallace: started but but i'll tell you that that move away from marriage is killing us as a culture.

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J. Warner Wallace: yeah and, and so I The thing that I spend, probably as much time if i'm not working in Christian apologetics just making the case for Christianity susie and I are working in some form of marriage ministry, because we know that a return to the the the traditional view.

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J. Warner Wallace: In which God actually shapes us into something that we are meant to be through our spouses is and then looking even even Paul was the head, I was supposed to be married, but if you're not married to a spouse that's because you've been called being married to Jesus and Ministry.

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J. Warner Wallace: They are still in some kind of a marriage relationship is turn.

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J. Warner Wallace: yeah so this idea of marriage and this is a place in which we learn how to submit we learn how to be humble to really learn humility.

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J. Warner Wallace: You know you learn the the nature that DEMO that perfect balance between god's justice and god's mercy.

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J. Warner Wallace: That that's the kind of stuff that works, can a marriage can, if you do it right a marriage can actually do that for you can help this is why God says and Asians right that we are to present our brides to like crisis present the church to God.

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J. Warner Wallace: amen like the marriage vironment is a place in which we can help each other grow in the faith.

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J. Warner Wallace: yeah so that we can print present each other holy to a holy God.

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J. Warner Wallace: And I think that's what I think is probably the other aspect of our work that.

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J. Warner Wallace: You know I don't I don't have a i'm not a marriage counselor and so i'm a detective so I stay in my lane right, I talked about the things that I can help you access assess the evidence in places, maybe, where you weren't but I don't have a degree in marriage counseling.

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J. Warner Wallace: Right.

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J. Warner Wallace: But it turns out, or yeah but i'm Susan have been together for 42 years and i'll tell you that if there's a there's one thing that we value after the Gospel it's managed.

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Andy Miller III: yeah beautiful and that's been an emphasis on our podcast i'm sorry.

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Andy Miller III: Maybe have the back some time to talk about that I just we just had an interview with katie files to the organization then before us, you know emphasizing like the way to think about family values is the importance of marriage between a man and woman.

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Andy Miller III: cream and children had other folks on to in my tradition.

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Andy Miller III: Every member of the Salvation Army church has that they will uphold the sanctity of marriage and family life, and when we do that, I think we'll see the benefit in other areas as well.

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J. Warner Wallace: yeah I mean if even if you were not a religious person, you said i'm not interested in yes fine if all I can do is get you toward that step of being interested in marriage.

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J. Warner Wallace: yeah right, I said a lot, I would say it, I love marriage, even more than I love my wife.

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J. Warner Wallace: wow that should benefit her right because I want the kind of marriage that's crazy that's great that's fantastic that people write books about that's the kind of marriage I want and that's going to you're going to do that, then you're going to have to live your life in a way that.

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J. Warner Wallace: produces that but, but that transcended in value if I don't have God it before ever knew God is do I transcending goal, it was marriage That was my transcendent goal so so that's something I think that could change the world.

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Andy Miller III: Wonderful well thanks so much again person of interest is his book will have information about him and cold case Christianity and the show notes.

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Andy Miller III: Jim thanks so much Jay wonderwall says his name pen name, so you can find them at all the all the things he's done Thank you so much for coming to the mortar story podcast it means a lot to me, and we really appreciate the ministry god's given you.

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J. Warner Wallace: Well, thanks so much for having me I really appreciate being here.

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Andy Miller III: God bless you.

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Andy Miller III: All right, thank you so.



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