Dangerous Affirmation: Revoice and Gay Christianity

After producing two excellent documentary movies with the American Family Association, In His Image and The God Who Speaks, M.D. Perkins took his research in these movies and saw a trend with Gay Christianity and the Revoice Conference. With his research behind him, he wrote this new book, Dangerous Affirmation.

Youtube - https://youtu.be/hSy2g6vLLCY

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Episode Links -

The God Who Speaks: https://thegodwhospeaks.org

In His Image: https://inhisimage.movie

The Prodigal Prayer Guide: https://resources.afa.net/prodigal-prayer-guide

Dangerous Affirmation: https://resources.afa.net/dangerous-affirmation-book

Contender: Going Deeper in the Book of Jude - This all-inclusive small group study on the book of Jude is out now. Check it out on the course page: http://courses.andymilleriii.com

Five Steps to Deeper Teaching and Preaching - I’m excited to share some news with you.  Recently, I updated this PDF document and added a 45-minute teaching video with slides, explaining this tool. It's like a mini-course. If you sign up for my list, I will send this free resource to you. Sign up here - www.AndyMillerIII.com or Five Steps to Deeper Teaching and Preaching.

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Transcript:

Andy Miller

Well, welcome to the more to the story podcast and the thinking is good for you podcast. We are coming together here at Wesley Biblical Seminary. We're we're in one of our classrooms here for a special edition. We're joining forces, but before we do that, we want to make sure you know that. This podcast is sponsored. By Wesley Biblical Seminary, where we are developing trusted leaders for faithful churches and that happens through a variety of programs as we help people develop pastoral skills and with bachelors, masters and doctorate programs, and we have several lay initiatives. One that I want to make sure you know about is the Wesley Institute. It's a program that walks people through. Every book of the Bible with seminary professors over A9. Month period, both Steve and I teach in that program and we have a second version of that program. As we've had people who have graduated from Wesley Institute one. Now they're in Wesley Institute 2 and that is one that walks through the essence, like not the essence, but like kind of essential elements of theology and this kind of at a Sunday school lay level. It's been a great program to help. Church leaders lay leaders become more focused in their learning, so we're really thankful for that. You can check out information about this at Wesley Biblical. Seminary at wbs.edu. All right, we have a special program for you today and I am delighted to welcome to our various podcast. Well, first let me just welcome my shared podcaster here. Doctor Steve Blake Moore, Professor Christian thought Wesley, biblical seminary.

Steve Blakemore

Great to be here today. Be with you again. We've done a couple. Of other joint endeavors before but it's great to be here and I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Andy Miller

Yeah, and we'll welcome in from the American Family Association, MD, Perkins, MD. Welcome to podcast.

MD Perkins

Thank you gentlemen. Good to be with you.

Andy Miller

Well, we want we'll bill talk about some of the work that you've done before as a filmmaker, but there's two particular. Documentaries you've done that are just beautiful. My family was watched him last night. I needed to make sure to get it in and I just got my copies, but why don't you just tell us about those two documentaries before we get into the two books at AFA?

MD Perkins

Has recently sure so the first documentary that we did kind of our big documentary on the authority of Scripture is called the God. Who speaks yes? So it traces the evidence for the Bible's authority through pastors, scholars, apologists answering the questions that people have about the scriptures. How do we get them? How do we know that we can trust them? How do we know that this truly is God's word for us, and what God intended for us to have so? That's that's a documentary that we did called the God who speaks. And then there's in his image, which you know is about delighting in God's plan for gender and sexuality. So you know when you take the scriptural authority question and then you begin to apply it. Then to this question of gender and sexuality you know how does that start to look. So it's. It's building not only just the biblical case, but also talking about obviously the things that are happening in the culture and society. You know, the ways that laws have changed and and there's this promotion of the LGBT movement overall. But also the the stories of hope and transformation that you know when the Lord gets a hold of somebody's soul and is able to to bring new life there. And what that can look like, and the hope that there that there is in Christ, for for believers so.

Speaker

Right?

Andy Miller

Amen, they're they're beautiful now American, the American Family Association and American family. Radio some people probably have listened to it and maybe they don't know that that's what they're listening to, but this is an A national platform. Tell us a. Little about AFA.

MD Perkins

Yeah, so AFA is a Pro family ministry started in 1977 by Donald Wildman. He was a Methodist minister. Who was concerned about morality and media and just the overall decline of of the as it as it was displayed on on television? You know, in the 70s you know network, television and the kinds of things that they were showing on the programs. And so you know part of what's unique about him is that he didn't just turn off the television. To talk about it among his church, he also, you know, would write a press release and send it around to the local media outlets and try and stir up this interest and conversation around the. Issues of the way that the way that society have been impacted by television at that point, but also going beyond that to some of the secular humanism issues and and broader issues in our culture and society. So I mean, American Family Association, located in Tupelo, Ms. It's been a stalwart defender of. Of Christian values and the family and standing against a lot of the cultural onslaught since since it was founded by Brother Don back in 77.

Andy Miller

And how many stations does the radio network?

MD Perkins

I believe there's over 180 stations of of American Family Radio. You had the the radio component came on in the early 90s and. I'm working on a documentary on Wildmen and the history of AFAS, so I've got a lot of those information points that they're ready, but.

Andy Miller

Oh, interesting, interesting. Yeah, interesting, now the in his image documentary is so strong and that led to the two books we're going to talk about today in part like even your own personal research. And a FA's approach. Let me just say I want to encourage people to check out in his image, and you can probably just Google in his image a FA and you probably. This we've just found out, you can't. It's not just on YouTube, you have to sign up at least to.

Speaker 4

Get it right.

MD Perkins

There's several ways that you can access it in this image. dot movie is the easy place to go. It's the main website for it, and it's still available to stream on there.

Andy Miller

OK.

MD Perkins

You can go to the AFA streaming platform, so AFA dot. Streaming.net I believe is the address. And you can have access to a lot of other afaz material. But also if you're trying to find something to share with a friend or something, it is available for free on YouTube, and that's a great way to you know, post it on somebody's social media account or someone who doesn't want to sign up.

Speaker 4

OK, OK.

MD Perkins

You know, for something because they're afraid of a Christian ministry or something, but they still wanna, you know, access the content.

Speaker 4

Yes, yes.

MD Perkins

You know the YouTube link is a great.

Andy Miller

OK, and it's also like.

MD Perkins

Is a great way to do that.

Andy Miller

But you have it as DVD's believe it or not. I actually put a real DVD and a DVD player in my house last night and I was looking at that just seeing this video and it's really interesting.

MD Perkins

Exactly, yeah.

Andy Miller

It's a great resource and I found out that you have or 500,000 views. 70,000 people have this DVD set, so it's a great ministry. And we're going to talk about some of this today and the first resource I want to talk about. We have two books 1, the AFA has put out called the Prodigal Prayer Guide. And this is scripture based prayers for the prodigal in your life. Now this is this is dealing with the same issues of human sexuality, right? So tell us a little bit about what's in this book and like the purpose of this and and and honestly like some people might already be resistant because maybe they know about the type of things that I've put out and maybe. To AFA as well. Even the fact that we're willing to stand up and say some of these type of things about scripture about sexuality. Maybe there are a resistant, but I think this show this book shows the heart of AFA and the.

MD Perkins

Sure, yeah, and and you know that was important for us with the documentary that it wasn't just bearing witness to things that were happening in. The culture or just? Just you know, kind of, almost in isolation, declaring the truth, but it was intended to be applied to the to individual people and to be a source of hope and compassion. Because we did want to, there are so many people who are dealing with these issues and they're personal questions, personal issues that are happening there, and in people's homes and their friendships and things like that. And so that's really where the prodigal prayer guide kind of came from, because. So in the documentary in his image there's a story. Of Laura Perry Who was she lived as a transgender man? She was born as a woman, was living as a man for for eight or nine years, and over the. The course of this time you know her mom was involved in the church and her mom kind of had a very. Legalistic, just kind of going through, very active in the church, but not necessarily spiritually minded. Yeah, and through this whole tension of relationship with her daughter, her mom is is kind of given a new perspective on things and is becoming dependent on the Lord and starting to. To seek him in prayer and in the scriptures and all these things in a. Way that she. Had in prior and in God's mercy. You know the daughter is is brought in and and is repentant and has faith in Christ and you know is able to overcome a lot of the the anxiety and and dysphoric feelings and things like that that she had experienced. But one of the one of the sweet means of grace that God used in their life was that there was this group of of women that her mom was was, you know, a part of this. This Bible study group and they had a prodigal prayer box. And so just you know, all of these women knew somebody in their life, a child, grandchild, you know niece or nephew or somebody who was straying from from the Lord who you know needed prayer and they started to write information about that. Put it. Put it in a box so that they could pull that out and and pray through those requests on a regular basis and it was through and. With the hope of praying people out of the prodigal prayer box, you know, and and so that's where these prayers come from.

Speaker 4

Hmm OK.

MD Perkins

You know, Laura Perry, Francine Perry, and one of the other ladies who was part of that group took, took scripture verses, and the Bible's promises, and or just.

Speaker

OK.

MD Perkins

Like personalizing them for for this child or for this situation, and so that's what the prodigal prayer guide is. It's it's just a way to help. Help parents and grandparents pray through, you know, the the situations with their children and grandchildren who have strayed from the Lord that you hope to see you know, brought back and restored itself.

Andy Miller

Stephen, that a little controversial that we would actually say something like people could be brought out and restored. What do you think?

Steve Blakemore

Yes, that would be controversial, but the only reason it's controversial because. There's a particular sort of. I hate to use such a big word, but a particular kind of metaphysical view. Of human existence that has begun to shape psychology and then is filtered its way into the church and the metaphysical view is this. There is no essence. Of what it means to be. A human. Being the metaphysical view says, we are essentially.

Speaker 4

Right?

Steve Blakemore

Not defined and we're self creators and therefore that spills over into into psychology and and that psychologists and the schools of psychology have embraced this idea that whatever is emerging out of someone's sense of identity. It's what that person really is, and then Christians don't know how to think about that because Christians basically love or we're called to love people, even the even the Sinner we're called to love them but. So it's controversial it's controversial. Downstream of a lot of things that happened way upstream and.

Speaker 4

Right?

Andy Miller

That's right.

Steve Blakemore

But we forget that everybody sense of themselves. Everybody's sense of identity is a product of forces that shape you. And not every force that shapes you is benign or beneficial, and so people can be shaped by experiences by. By cultural attitudes by cultural values, even by environmental factors that can cause someone to go haywire chemically so it gets to be controversial, but it's controversial because people just have this completely wrong idea first of all. What it means to be a human being? And then secondly, the idea that if you if we're calling on people. To think about the possibility of their lives changing somehow, that seems like an angry rejection of their person versus a loving invitation to come into health, right?

Speaker 4

Right, right?

Steve Blakemore

So there's a lot of reasons that Christians have have fallen prey to to the secular to secular ideas. And secular ideas play on Christian morality of love and goodness and kindness, but so it is controversial.

Andy Miller

This is so good and I love how this fits in with your research as a whole like and you have a book coming out on the nature of the soul and what constitutes how we exist as humans. But I love that you push it back to this idea of what is the essence of a person and it kind of reminds me of the Charles Taylor idea that we end up thinking of meaning. As it's either discovered. Or created and generally like we fall in like the worldview of an essence that says we create our own meaning. We create our own reality, our own truth that then stands in opposition. Instead of saying that something exists outside of us that we discover.

Steve Blakemore

Yes, and it's rather ridiculous that people push back against the idea of a reality that exists outside of me. Right, especially on moral reality, but let's even take take. Morality out of it. Right now some sort of X. I'll use another big philosophical term, existential reality. Something about the nature of existence itself that is stands in other objective. Beyond me and we have a set of people people reject that idea and yet everybody has.

Speaker 4

Right?

Steve Blakemore

To live their lives on the basis of it.

Speaker 4

So when I talk when.

Steve Blakemore

I talk to people who, for instance, embrace transgenderism as an actually real thing, not a real phenomenon. Right, there's a difference in the phenomenon.

Speaker 4

That's right, yeah, yeah.

Steve Blakemore

Versus transgenderism is a real thing and they say, well, well, you're just imposing a well view on people you're imposing imposing a set of values. And look at. Them and I said, well, wait a second. You're saying that transgenderism is a real thing and that if I don't think that's a real thing, I'm either stupid or I must be evil and.

Speaker

I want to hurt people who don't.

Steve Blakemore

Line up with my value. System I said you are assuming yourself. That this is that there is an objective. Reality, you just think the objective reality is 1. 180 degrees different. From the objective reality that that every culture that has ever existed on planet Earth basically has embraced right that there are men and there are women. There are males and females and that can be expressed across a continuum of waves. You can have have everybody from I'll just. Use recent persons from my. Lifetime you can have every kind. Of woman from Marilyn Monroe. To LA Clampit, but they're both women, right? You can have Annie, Oakley, and Florence. Nightingale can.

Andy Miller

You keep on choosing these women who use guns.

Steve Blakemore

Yeah, but anyway I so anyway that if this essence thing is really is really what's at the heart.

Andy Miller

OK, I want to get this over to MD. In a second and like this. Is why, like I love you very pastorally Talked about this and and that's what we want. We want to be have it, but it nevertheless is a revolutionary type of idea to say that if we really believe this like this is the reality. That we're affirming we're going to. Say that the best. For somebody is to not live in that. I mean is that the suggestion from this? Book like that's why.

MD Perkins

Oh absolutely yeah, yeah.

Andy Miller

We're gonna pray for that.

MD Perkins

And the prodigal prayer God obviously is looking toward that hope of transformation and people, I mean, and obviously a prodigal can be in any situation doesn't have to be somebody who's embraced LGBT in itself, but it did come out of that focus because so many people have.

Speaker 4

Right, right?

MD Perkins

Of had that question and that that issue partially because of that, that essence idea where someone is essentializing either trans identity or homosexual identity to the point where I am essentially biologically intrinsically this way, and you can't say anything against that.

Speaker 4

Right, right?

MD Perkins

And once they start to embrace that identity, it's really hard to break out of that, and partially I think you know the.

Speaker 4

Right, right?

MD Perkins

The spiritual things that are at work within sexuality have something to do with that too. Once they start to live out, you know in in that behavior and stuff too. But anyway, I think you know that's there's a lot that is tied into that, so.

Andy Miller

I have two friends who I mean I'm going to start using this prayer guide for I have I have. You might know Terry Tekel, you know that. Evangelist, he has his this most wanted journal, and I you like have the people you want to come to Christ or come back to Christ. And so I have them on the most wanted list, and they're two people who are living presenting as a different gender than. They are, from which they are born.

MD Perkins

We'll keep praying and and pray the people out of that journal, yeah?

Andy Miller

Well, and they're and they're kind of. They might be watching this podcast too, so and I hope that they do, and the idea is like we want to move people in a different direction now. Anything else we want to say about the the prayer guide and and even how we approach that before we move on. To the next book.

Speaker

Well, I would just like.

Steve Blakemore

To say this about the whole.

Speaker 4

Idea of praying for people, right? Interesting but.

Steve Blakemore

To reconsider their sense of identity.

Andy Miller

OK, OK.

Steve Blakemore

I want to link it to something that. Might not seem. Directly related. But there's there's also in. Our culture today. This whole movement that's called. Body positivity, which is about very overweight people. Most of most Americans are overweight but very overweight. Being affirmed. In their overweightness that if you don't affirm them in their overweightness, you're actually devaluing them. You're hurting them because it's hard for them to do XY&Z But everything that. We know medically everything that we know medically. Tells us that. To approach people on the basis of body positivity is to affirm them into a way of existence that is profoundly unhealthy for right, right, leading to everything from everything to diabetes. Type 2 to acute and chronic inflammation. That even can become brain inflammation that can lead. To cognitive problems and so everything. We know on the objective. Level of science says no. That's not right, so the same thing is. True then, if there is a way that we are that is most right. For a human being. To be and it's the way God is designed. To pray for someone to come out of a way of life that is contrary to what we understand, to believe them to be not only the most godly, but the most beneficial, the most healthy, the most full and robust and complete expression of the humanity to do that is to actually engage. In a in a ministry of kindness, A. Ministry of love.

Speaker 4

Hey man hey man.

Steve Blakemore

And a ministry. Of of encourage.

Speaker

But what?

Steve Blakemore

They do is they people take it and. They twist it and. They say Oh yes, but initially. Everything that you're. Doing is hurtful, right? It it it it it challenges. People sense of identity when in reality what's happening is people are saying through prayer, through ministries, through documentaries or whatever. Know there is a way that seems that Jeremiah, I believe it is there's a way. That seems right to a man. And yet, that way leads to destruction, and the only way that is right is God's way. So it's Christians, like us, are motivated by love, Amen, not hatred, not meanness, not rigidity. It's truly a motivation of love.

Andy Miller

And we have to keep that in mind too, as we are present as we are talking and in conversation that we try to approach it in a way that conveys the truth and love. Interesting enough like you talk about the obesity piece. One of my friends who is presenting as another gender, a woman biological woman presenting as a man we've come in and offered. Some people very active on my own post. From my social media pages and the like and my very kind loving mother-in-law. Got on and just simply said to this person I'll I'll be praying for you. And then there was this immediate reaction of saying you're getting yourself in trouble by saying you're going to pray for me. I didn't ask for prayer, I didn't ask to you. You are, you are almost like assaulting me.

Steve Blakemore

Right?

MD Perkins

Like you have to consent to pray.

Andy Miller

Rather, there's no that that. That word was used consent, like I didn't consent to this. Whoa, are we going to regulate at that level now? I mean, this is a whole nother. A whole nother. Place of thinking about what what we think and how we pray. So certainly it's good for us to get in a place where. We can pray for someone.

Steve Blakemore

I haven't invited you to think about my investment. In a way that's. Contrary to the way. That I think about my existence. How dare you have the thought?

Andy Miller

That's right, this this is where. We are anything else, Cindy. OK, I want to get. This I'm really encouraged by this encouraged and also honestly Andy, I'm a little. Little I come at this a little trepidation, alright, let's make a pivot here. I want to talk about this second book that you've written and it's just come out dangerous affirmation. The threat of gay Christianity. Now some people will be resistant already that we're saying that something is a threat, but this goes back to our idea that if we're going to live in the truth, and if truth. Comes from outside of us as revealed in the person of Jesus and our triune God and his work in space and time. If there is a truth we want. To lead people. To that truth, it is ultimately in their good for us to lead them to that. Truth, and that's the only. Thing we can do so. I'm OK using the word threat, but it is hard because we've been resistant to this. I want to just walk back a little bit to think about even the last 30 years or so of how the church has engaged the sexual revolution. And so we developed some some quick phrases that help us think about this in an orthodox way, so we'll say. We you know we're not necessarily talking about somebody's orientation, but we want to talk about the behavior. We will love the Sinner, hate the sin, and there's truth in that. But we want to be cautious with the way we use some of those words, but there's that the first phase of us was of the Christian. Response was was working through some of the more blatant areas of the sexual revolution, but in the last I would think like 10 years or so there's been a new movement that has maintained as they would say, an Orthodox position, and I'm not necessarily opposed that. I think of people like Preston Sprinkle his podcast theology in the wall. This Old Testament scholar who's really kind of taken the forefront on what's often identified as side B and somebody like Wesley Hill. But there's in a willingness to embrace the orientation. And then to say, as you say, here the threat of gay Christianity to put that adjective in front of the word Christian. And there's there's a challenge. That and some people say, well, who are you to tell me what I can put in front of things? But I'm I'm curious like this is exactly go back to our other point. I hear hear Steve laughing at me alright. So a FA American Family Association and even Wesley Biblical Seminary, to a certain extent, like we're starting to say we need to tap the brakes here. And you're saying this is a dangerous affirmation? Help us know, like maybe in some of the things I've said I've said are a little off already, so I'd love to hear what's led to this book.

MD Perkins

Yeah, so let's back up and think of what is gay Christianity? So gay Christianity is the attempt to reconcile the Christian faith with homosexuality or the LGBT movement in some in some capacity. You know the Christian faith is a collection of values, beliefs, and practices that the church has held. You know throughout. Existence defined by Scripture that have guided our worship and our practice and our thinking on this. And obviously we know what the Scripture says about homosexuality. And so when it comes to homosexuality, though, that's also a big topic because it's not just. Not just a practice or a behavior or even a. Desire or predisposition or orientation has some people have to find it, but it's also identity, it's also vocabulary. It's also politics and culture and language, and you know there's so many things that are connected to that idea that basically you have two counterpoint religions that have differing views. Of of reality and the self, and even definitions of what is sin and righteousness, you know. So those things cannot be reconciled.

Andy Miller

Now you're saying homosexuality, and so I've almost been resistant to that, like we'll say homosexual practice, right? I mean, this is what's been grilled into us, baked into I don't know.

MD Perkins

Yeah you, you've got to make the distinction. You know you've got to form. The nuance is what everyone keeps saying, you know. But I mean, think about Romans chapter one where it talks about dishonorable passions. You know, like. That's this is a passion that brings dishonor. So like it's not even just talking about behavior. Obviously the behavior is wicked and wrong, but you're also talking about the sinful pattern of desire. Passion within the Greek. There the idea is like something that befalls you. You know it's not even necessarily something that you're seeking out, but the. The cultivation of it.

Speaker 4

Right, right?

MD Perkins

You know over time you know, continues to engender that even more deeply inside of.

Andy Miller

So it that that it's dangerous to embrace that like that side of things and and what the and before we get into, I wanna drop, drop back to the idea in a second, but maybe it'd be helpful to describe what the difference is between side A and side B.

MD Perkins

Right, OK? Yeah, so side A is what we would also call the. Affirming church OK, you know that's pride. Flag in front of the church. You know we're open and affirming you know those kinds of. Words being used. And the attempt there was usually to make the Bible somehow affirm homosexuality, homosexual behavior, gay identity, gay relationships, gay marriage, all that you know. So basically saying God made you this way, it's good, it's just part of his diverse creation, you know, and so we just need to celebrate. That as Christians. And so that has been what most people I think have thought of when it comes to the idea of gay Christianity.

Speaker 4

Right, right?

MD Perkins

You know, they just think of the affirming church, but there is a newer movement like you were alluding to this whole side B position and where that comes from is people who've grown up within an evangelical conservative church space. And then you know, had some kind of homosexual temptation or desire. And then they thought, well, I, I know that this is what the Bible teaches. But I also know that I'm a Christian. I prayed for this to go away. It never happened, so therefore I am innately and immutably homosexual and they've grown up not only in a conservative church but also in a society.

Speaker 4

Right? Right?

MD Perkins

Has been given over and is affirming and celebratory and feeding all of the all of the language. All of the talking points about homosexual. Reality about all of those things is coming from.

Andy Miller

Everywhere, right?

MD Perkins

The world.

Andy Miller

You know, like from our you know, television to clubs at school and there's just like a lot of times people will say, Oh well, you know I brought up with my kids and there's just we can't even say it to our kids like there's just an assumption that that's what it has to be so that side B kind of comes away to. Straddle the fence here.

MD Perkins

It is, yeah, it's it's presented as kind of 1/3 way kind of a middle ground, you know.

Andy Miller

We're not like middle grounds, right? Yeah, yeah. So we don't want to say either. Or right?

MD Perkins

Yeah we don't. Yeah, it's a both and you know like so we want to say that. So what they're saying essentially is that that you can have this K identity. That there is somehow essentially that you are homosexual and that that cannot change and you know it might change in a miraculous instance, but you know, as one one side, the author puts it, you know we don't expect for waters to be parted. You know as as a matter of course, you know.

Speaker

Hmm, interesting.

MD Perkins

So like they don't. Put it in the realm of Christian sanctification and growth in godliness, and as you are conform more to Christ's likeness that you you begin to desire the world less, and you live like the world less and even your desires and. And temptations change through that you know?

Speaker 4

Right?

MD Perkins

So yeah, it's it's a problematic thing because it it poses a threat to not just to individual Christians who are struggling because it does pose that. And it offers. Essentially, I would say no. Hope you know, no hope of transformation.

Speaker 4

Right, right, right.

MD Perkins

You know you just have to find a way to steward your sexuality is how is actually the phrasing that they'll use.

Andy Miller

And they'll even use things like in this true side B side. They'll often use things to say that this is a gift for the way I look at the world. And this is coming from like we're saying that this is a part of the. All like you, you allude to Romans one. If that's the case, if we're saying that we're celebrating this way that I'm disoriented in the world, this is this has some ramifications, and then you know the revoice conference, which is the kind of flashpoint or the clearest way that the side B has. Demonstrate it. Itself would even have something like a conference that has queer treasures in the new creation. So there are things that have been discovered within queer world. I'm sorry if I'm not using right word like in in that expression that is going to be.

MD Perkins

Yeah, it's basically this idea that all things in culture are inherently neutral and that you can.

Andy Miller

A part of the new heavens and New York.

MD Perkins

You can embrace certain aspects of that, and so there's certain things that you know are part of queer culture that they would say. You know part of part of the recreation and part of the the new heavens.

Andy Miller

And new earth. Now it's interesting that somebody like Rosaria Butterfield has talked about how hospitality was a beautiful part of her experience and what brought her in to the homosexual community was just the community actually felt. And then she's written a book about how Christians need. To do better at Community, I mean so is that not an example of one of those things that they're the LGBT Q culture is doing that? Maybe Christians should learn from.

MD Perkins

Right, and that's you know, part of the issue. There is the feeling of isolation that someone feels when they have those experiences and temptations you know, and a lot of that internalized, like feeling like I can't talk to someone, or if I do, I'm going to get yelled at or like God's mad at me. Or like I can't talk to my pastor or that kind of. Thing, and so like there is a a gentleness and a friendliness that she's referring to there with the with the hospitality thing that that Christians do need to be aware of. You know, I mean, we do combat. We do have to bear witness to the truth in the in a secular and godless culture, you know.

Speaker 4

Right, right?

MD Perkins

But at the same time, you know. When you have these relationships with people you know to to have a spirit of gentleness and and loving, you know you're wanting. To it, you know it isn't necessarily trying to get them to to change their language right away. You know it's like, understand where you coming from what, what, what happened, what's part of your background, you know, and I want to understand that so that I can not just love you as a sentimentality, but like the Christian is always. The love that we show has that objective toward growing you in Christ likeness, you know and hoping to point you toward Jesus.

Speaker 4

Yes, yes.

MD Perkins

You know, so that's that's our goal and our aim. So it's never just like this passive love like we just are together singing Kumbaya. But it is a a sanctifying hope that we have in those interactions, so that's that's where I would throw the balance in, because the the revoice kind of thing is supposed to present kind of this alternate community.

Speaker 4

Right direction

MD Perkins

Of like the church doesn't understand us or get us and they're just mad at us. And so we're coming together because we're the only ones who can understand each other. So we're going to have real community and fellowship here.

Andy Miller

And that's why the sometimes the movement is just not through revoice is also called the spiritual friendship movement.

Speaker

Right?

Andy Miller

Now there is something really valuable, of course that we can learn from the Spiritual Friendship Group is that we want to encourage people who are single to have opportunities to have deep friendships. And we need to as a church, be responsible for that. So I'm very. Yeah, welcoming to throw that idea like I want to figure out ways that as a church and as a somebody start for the pastor for 15 years, creating an environment and a culture for that. But what comes along with? It is is where it gets a little problematic within the spiritual friendship. How movement. So how does the spiritual friendship side? Move in a dangerous way.

MD Perkins

Well, it it begins to embrace certain things that you know, for instance it. It loves to talk about chaste, physical affection, you know, and. Immediately when you're having to use the word chaste, you're already alluding to something that is potentially problematic in the the physical affection that you're trying.

Speaker 4

Right, right?

MD Perkins

Show and so you know, talking about like men getting together and snuggling together, or people have even talked about doing nudist colonies and things like that as a way to help them overcome the fact that they're committed to the celibate life. And so that they can kind of play on the edges.

Andy Miller

Are you serious Dave? Like talk about having Christian nudist colonies of people who experience same-sex attraction. Yeah, OK, and like the idea is they're not crossing the line, right? Like OK, we're not having sex.

MD Perkins

That was something that Ed Shaw put out on livingout.org. You know several years.

Speaker 4

OK.

Andy Miller

Ago one more thing and then one get Steve into this. The five years ago there was a a group of Christian leaders that came together from a variety of denominational perspectives, and there are people from Wesley Biblical Seminary that were part of signing the Nashville statement, which had an article that they had it. We affirm, we deny, and a variety these articles and one of the things that they brought up was. Kind of addressing the spiritual friendship movement and the idea of embracing disordered identity as. Elematic well, even just since it's been five years. There is a call and that's all that you highlighted this of people saying you need to repent. If you sign this statement, well, I signed that statement. What do what do you think? Talk about the the Nashville statement, how it interacts with this.

MD Perkins

Well, the national statement was basically a consensus statement. You know, it was intended as just a clear kind of rallying cry point for Christians in light of. Two years after Obergefell, you know. So this is like August 2017, you know. So a burger fell happened June 2015, so a couple of years later, in light of the decline that's happening in culture, the way that churches in light of that Supreme Court decision, you think politics doesn't impact the church it always does in terms of especially people, just general perception and willingness to go along with things.

Speaker 4

Right, right? Right, sure.

MD Perkins

So they were starting to see some of those shifts and. Movements, and so a broad spectrum of the Evangelical Church got together, wanted to codify a statement on biblical sexuality, and it addressed it, addressed transgenderism within it. It addressed this idea of gay self conception, which was the Article 7 that. That guys like Nate Collins who founded Revoice had a real issue with and you know pushed back on so it.

Speaker 4

Right, right?

MD Perkins

You know, in some sense I think it did highlight a fracture point that was already there within evangelical churches. It just wasn't very visible to that point, but it really brought that stuff up to the surface in a way that hadn't had an opportunity to really before, because everything was kind of connected together.

Andy Miller

Right, right, we're we're still kind of learning to express the boundaries of this now I'm not sure what she's going to say next, but I know I want to hear from him. So I mean, Steve, I don't know. Sure, if you like you, you and I haven't had too many conversations about what what's coming with gay Christianity or side be, but I would really love to hear what you think because, you know you've talked classes. On on these subjects, and particularly how we view with how we think about the self and the image and what makes us. Up as people.

Steve Blakemore

Well, what I find incredibly. It's both interesting. And depressing. About our culture. For me, is I mean I've been around for a pretty long time now. I mean, I'm not, I'm not.

Andy Miller

I'm not going to comment on that.

Steve Blakemore

I'm not getting any younger, I'm not at. I'm not at midnight yet, but I am in the late afternoon of my life.

Speaker 4

OK.

Steve Blakemore

OK, I I recognize that and of course across the the course of my life I have had multiple. Homosexual friends. And I had fairly close friendships with them. And time and again. Until they walked away I was able to just continue to say I love you, but your life is not what God wants for you. Now the thing that I find so interesting is is. This profound move. It that that began it probably began right after World was put it this way. Sexual promiscuity has always been a problem in human life. Always been a problem in human life, so you go back to the ancient Roman world or the ancient Greek world. Bisexual what we would today call bisexuality, which was essentially married men carrying on sexual trysts with younger men. But they were actively. Engaged with as a married man with children and they would also have these homosexual. What we call homosexual attractions, and so that's been a part of of life forever. Sexual promiscuity, in terms of multiple sexual partners, has always been rife throughout. Human existence. Even the Victorian era people off of the Victorian era was probably as disgustingly sexual in its in its promiscuity as any as any other time. There's no golden age, but what has happened? Since probably after World War Two. And that was I'm not that old yet, but I'm I'm old enough to know people who knew the world right after World War Two.

Speaker 4

OK, OK.

Steve Blakemore

But surely from the time I was born. In the 50s. Up through the 60s into the 70s, what began to take place was. The idea of sex sex. As an identity maker. So it's it's an it's an identity maker, and then he became an identity marker. And so the whole sexual revolution. In the in the began in the 50s with Kinsey into the 60s. Then in the 70s and then in the 80s, sex your sexual life was an identity marker. And it became inherent to the expression of your selfhood. Now that that's a profound, profound shift to no longer think about sex as an activity that is central to human existence. Instead, to be beginning to think about sex as that which, Marks and makes your identity. That's a huge shift.

Speaker 4

All right, right?

Steve Blakemore

And shift and so people like Charles Taylor and. The Carl Truman as they talk about the way the sense of self develops. It's not just because an ideology took out took took over, but a way of living values that were presented to us. So that's been a profoundly interesting thing to observe. And today therefore we have the idea of sex. And our sexual attractions as the essential. The essential thing that makes us something. So so.

Andy Miller

Yeah, interesting. That's what enters into this conversation, then, about how we how we could ever have somebody who called themselves. A gay Christian.

Steve Blakemore

Yes and so. So if you say I am a gay Christian. OK. What power, what role? What effect does that adjective? Have on the noun. Right, what if I were to describe myself and say I am a white Christian, right? People are going to get very troubled about that, right? Oh, that means you are a person who sees your whiteness as central to your Christianity, which is therefore exclusive of others. How does a gay Christian going? How is a gay Christian going to argue that their their adjective is far more? Nine, then then that right so? I would say instead instead of talking about people saying I'm a gay Christian. The better way, the more precise way. If they want to be faithful to Christianity is to say I am a Christian, a devoted follower of Jesus who has surrendered my entire sense of identity. To the Lordship of Jesus Christ, as he has revealed to us in the scripture, and my central temptation. The besetting sin in my life is this attraction right now that's a mouth.

Andy Miller

Well, exactly so let me just jump in there so.

Steve Blakemore

But that that's more precise.

Andy Miller

It is certainly more precise, so Wesley Hill would say, and I've heard him say on other interviews, is in maybe the leading voice in this. I just can't say all that. I'm just going to say gay Christian.

Steve Blakemore

And I would say, well, if you can't say all of that, then you're not speaking precisely. And if you don't speak precisely, people can make out of your language anything they want to, so you owe it to people to speak precisely.

Speaker 4

Thinking is good for you.

Steve Blakemore

And if you don't have time to speak precisely, keep your mouth shut.

Speaker 4

Wow, tell me how you feel.

Steve Blakemore

That's true, that's not just true. That's not true. Just about that kind of argument. It's true for Christians across the board.

Andy Miller

For Christology you know like our Trinity.

Steve Blakemore

Yes, we need to. We need to keep our mouths shut. Sometimes if we don't have time. To to speak clearly and thoroughly and precisely because these are deep life forming or malforming deep life, enriching or impoverishing conversations that we have. And so these little catchphrases and this little bumper sticker. Way of thinking about conversations over truth. Things that itself is a sign of our fallenness. Now let me shift just a second about in terms of what I've said about a sexuality as a as a as something that is a identity maker. People look back at like the Book of Leviticus Chapter 18. And that's where he says, have sex with this person, but not with this person. Don't have sex with this person. Don't have sex with this kind of person. Don't have sex and people look and they say oh that's just a whole lot of rules. But what if the thing that's driving Moses in understanding the revelation of God, enlisting all these things is basically something much more profound than just who should you? Engage your genitals with, but instead it's a statement about human beings.

Speaker 4

Yeah, yeah.

Steve Blakemore

Made in the image of God. Right, God is 3 persons God God is this fellowship if you will. Human beings made in the image of God are made not just for God and we're not simply individuals, but we are made by a multiplicity of kinds of relationships. So yes, I need I. My identity is partially made by. And significantly made by my sexual relationship with my wife. But my identity is also made by my relationship with my sons. My identity is also made by my relationship with my brother and my sister by my yeah and academic Dean and my friendships and women who are nothing more than friends to me.

Andy Miller

An academic Dean.

Speaker 4

Right, right, right.

Steve Blakemore

Men who I have such deep affection for. That some people would say, well, that's a sign of that you're having a bromance with them. But once again, that's just another term to confuse things. But such a deep affection for that has nothing to do with sexual attraction. All of these things in which we need all of these kinds of relationships. But in our culture, the idea. Of male to male friendship or female to female friendship has been infected by this idea that if those kind of attractions are intense enough. They they ought, they they will inevitably trigger sexual desire and therefore that sexual desire will be a part of your identity. And I just find that empower an impoverished way to think about human existence.

Speaker 4

Right, right, right.

Andy Miller

So This is why it's so important. Is that what we're saying is it's not good enough just to say. Anymore like we need more clarity, more nuance, more thinking about orientation and behavior. Because these things are very connected.

Steve Blakemore

Yes, and that's what I like about what MD is doing in his book.

Andy Miller

Yeah yeah, yeah.

Steve Blakemore

He's he's saying it's, you know you could. You could use any number of metaphors. You could say he's tapping the brakes or he's firing the flare or.

Andy Miller

Sounding the alarm blowing the trumpet.

Steve Blakemore

He sounded the alarm, whatever metaphors to say. Wait a second, wait a second.

Speaker 4

Yeah, yeah.

Steve Blakemore

There are consequences to embracing these things. I think that's really what you're trying to get at, right?

Andy Miller

Yeah, let's get to that. So is it really a threat? I mean it is gay Christianity. This perspective that's coming from side B? Is it a threat, yeah.

MD Perkins

Absolutely yeah, I mean, and the ways in which it a threat. The ways in which it is. The threat vary, you know depending on who you are, you know for young children you know it's a threat. In terms of shaping their ultimate thinking about sexuality and which also shapes how they view, you know the Bible and and all kinds of other things you know for pastors, the thread. This is toward one of silence, or resistance or hesitancy, to speak with the same level of forcefulness the Bible does on this, but also with the same offer of graciousness that the Bible does. You know it, it tends to be an either or scenario with the the either tending toward the gentle, which means don't say much at all. You know, and then you know for for just your average Christians you know it's it's shaping how you are viewing the world. It's shaping. How you view the scripture? It shapes the way that you interact with the world. And the things that are happening in in culture and society, you know, tending to shrink back from it, not wanting to say not wanting to say clearly or definitively, you know that certain things are wrong, or certain things you know shouldn't happen. You know. So I mean, the threat and and and to go underneath that. It's not just that. That we have to say the right thing or think the right way. The point of that is because of the spiritual threat behind it all, which is that there's an enemy that is seeking your soul. And he's seeking to devour and steal and kill, and one of the ways that he does that is, is through this whole sexuality movement. And so, like there is a spiritual threat underneath all of you know, we could think about the cultural threats or theological threats, or losing clarity of language, or any of that. And those are all very serious and real. But underneath all of those movements is is that spiritual reality and Christians have to keep that in their sights. We can't lose that because so much of this is an attempt to.

Speaker 4

Right, right?

MD Perkins

Just move it into the realm of science or just move it into the realm of psychology as if the scripture and the spiritual life have nothing. Nothing but alform.

Andy Miller

Right, right, it's it, is it? It puts us in an interesting situation. Dangerous situation. You are getting to a point there where you're thinking about what happens in Leviticus 18, and that it's more than just this physical response. What else is that? What, what is that pointing to?

Steve Blakemore

You think about Leviticus 18 and Leviticus 181920. The purity codes it starts out with sexual sexual things, but then it moves toward things like sacrifice, right? Even child sacrifice and toward idolatry and. In each one of those instances. When our sense when when you don't have this sense that there is an objective reality. Outside of. To which my life is called to conform, not as an imposition on me to reign me in, but as an invitation to me to invite me into the vast Vista of God's beautiful will and purpose for my life. When when you don't recognize that there's the existence of this objective reality, then we can begin to define. Other people in relationship to ourselves. For ourselves, out of ourselves, which is what which is what sexual promiscuity always is, where everybody becomes a potential sexual partner for me, you know, and the the problem with.

Speaker 4

Right, right? Right, right?

Steve Blakemore

When you do that and you and the. The side be kind of Christians want to say something like, well, this this way of of desire is just the only natural expression of me that I know.

Speaker 4

Hmm hmm.

Steve Blakemore

Right, yeah I want to stop and say, well wait a second. Finding other females attractive. I'm an older guy now, you know, but I'm not dead. Finding other females attractive. To the point that I could even be really sexually attracted to them. That's the only natural way I ever have ever known that I could be. So it's not a. It's not uncommon then that out of this sense of starting with the self, there's a now a new movement even among some Christians to begin to say, well the next the next. Legitimate step is to begin to affirm polygamy or polyamory.

Speaker 4

Right, sure.

Steve Blakemore

So where where does it start and then? Out of the sense of self. Right, the sense of self and starting with the self then your children among the Amalekites.

Speaker 4

Right?

Steve Blakemore

What what's the purpose of your children? That your purpose of your children are potentially to benefit your life. So if you need to to sacrifice them to Moloch to benefit your life right now, great.

Speaker 4

Right?

Steve Blakemore

So abortion. Is our malek.

Speaker 4

Yeah for sure for sure.

Steve Blakemore

Sacrament in the United States of America. Because children are now seen as either a blessing or a detriment according to how the parents. Value them and then we're also tempted to redefine God. Out of ourselves for ourselves, and we will always make a God in our own image.

Speaker 4

Right, right?

Steve Blakemore

Let me let me just tack on. One final thing here about. About this idea of sexual identity. Sexual attraction. And all of that first thing is this. The most honest homosexual. Activists out there that I have read, admit and psychologists who are honest admit that we have not really any clear cut definitive cue clue. As to what forms sexual attraction in human beings, we do know that there seems to be a correlation between some sort of disoriented. Nature of the relationship of the same sex parent, Umm, either an absence or an or something that was harmful. There seems to be a correlation, but we don't even know if all of that's causative, but the idea that that was put out 30 or 40 years ago, which was. Debunked shortly after that that there's some kind of gay gene or gay genetic condition. That that is seeped into the culture, but it's seeped into the culture. Because the activists seized upon it in a very cynical fashion. Know it's knowing it's not true. In order to promote their agenda. Now let me the final thing I wanted to say was for Christians. We need to think about home. I think we need to think about homosexual attraction. That people wrestle. In terms of a much a much. More nuanced categories than we have because we tend to go to the to the idea that it is sinful. Immediately, OK, yeah. That people are homosexual because there's something sinful in them. I say no. We become sinful in our actions because we are fallen right, we are broken. We are alienated really from the image of God and we're alienated from what we really are. Fallenness is not sinfulness, it is the precursor to sinfulness. We live in a fallen world. OK, our nature is fallen and therefore we are subject to temptations that. That are the result of that fallenness, and to the extent and I think MD mentioned this to the extent that we begin to entertain them and to act upon them and allow them to begin to define us or guide our lives. Then our actions do become sinful.

Speaker 4

Right, interesting.

Steve Blakemore

But one of the things that people resist is the idea that, ohh, my sexual orientation is sinful, and what I say is that. No, not necessarily, but it is fallen.

Speaker 4

Right, right?

Steve Blakemore

It is a disordered desire.

Andy Miller

So using that language is more helpful and like more precise to think of.

Steve Blakemore

Yeah, I think it's more theologically precise, and I think for a lot of Christians, if we could begin to realize that.

Andy Miller

It as yeah.

Steve Blakemore

That homosexual homosexuality is a sin. It's clear that it's that it's simple in its practice and its expression is profoundly sinful. People are twisted in our lives and our thinking and our desiring and our self understanding. Because of our fallenness Christ came not simply to take away our sins. He came to deal with our fallenness He gives us the Holy Spirit to recreate us so that we can be what God wants us to be.

Speaker 4

Right, right?

Steve Blakemore

And if Christians could see then and I bring all this up for Christians to realize that when you're standing for Scripture. You're not just making a moral stand. You're taking a stand for the healing of humanity, awesome healing and recreation into the image of God to to cure our fallenness so that sinfulness will not drive us.

Speaker 4

Amen, Amen.

Andy Miller

And this is the approach that we take in our systematic theology courses. Here is that like we have it with this Direct Line of the reality and nature of the fallen world. That leads us to sin, but then the great, the beautiful boy and you're just starting to get there is the restoration of that image. And like how that when we talk about sanctification, this privilege, that all believers. Have to have the opportunity to experience a time in their life for the Holy Spirit is so present that you don't actually have to. And this is the way that we experience the restoration of that image. Ultimately, in the new heavens.

Steve Blakemore

If I'm under if I am understanding what MD was saying about side B. The the problem with the side B Christian and Christianity is they don't recognize the extent to which fallenness is a spiritual problem.

Speaker 4

Yeah, that this is it.

Andy Miller

What do you think is that where we are?

MD Perkins

I, I think that's a that's an astute assessment. You know they speak in terms of fallenness and they recognize they would link the. Orientation to fall in this, but then, but it's still essentialized you know. So it's it's hard to move beyond that to where even one of them pontificates on. Perhaps you know God made a race of eunuchs that that he was intended to basically have this attraction, you know? Like pre fall OK you know. And and you know Nate Collins speaks of an aesthetic orientation that God made him with a particular bent toward male beauty as opposed to female beauty. And that the the fall just twisted that desire made it sexual. But really, you know the restorative thing for him is that it can become relational rather than. Sexual, but you know it's still. It's still all twisted up in a in a weird kind of nuanced. Mix of.

Andy Miller

Wow, so and and there's not really any way that we can pull that from.

MD Perkins

Scripture no, no. I mean it's all his own thoughts. You know that he he presents in his book all but invisible.

Andy Miller

Now Steve was taking us through a little bit of the history of how we move from this place of like sexual markers, sexual makers, and you. You in the very beginning of the book, though, talk about something happened in 1968 in the church and tell us what that was and like how that set us on a.

MD Perkins

Trajectory well the the the. Story I. Recount in the beginning of the book is on the founding of the Metropolitan Community Church.

Speaker

OK.

MD Perkins

Which was the first gay affirming church group to exist in America and you know it was founded by a guy who was a homosexual and he wanted to kind of marry evangelical theology to some extent with with homosexual activism and and a full embrace. Of that, and so yeah, that happened early. You know. The the late 60s you. Know was the. First meeting, and that's a that's an established denomination at this point, and obviously you know you see the expression of that same idea within a lot of the. Main line conversations and the overall affirming church movement, right?

Andy Miller

I love Steve. I want to get you in here again. I'd love us to kind of tie things up here of thinking of what we can do now. Like what? How do we respond to this cultural moment like and what's your hope from the book like where where you want to see things go as a result of like laying out this as we said. This marker, this the trumpet sound. This tap on the brakes to gay Christianity.

MD Perkins

Primarily, I want Christians to pay attention, you know, to to be aware of what's happening to be aware of. To not just take on every piece of language that gets handed to us by secular culture and society, and to then because what what tends to happen is, we take it.

Speaker 4

Yeah, yeah.

MD Perkins

And then we put our little Christian twist on it that we think justifies. It makes it OK. And then we start using it. But we're using it in a different sense. You know, like you were saying, you know the. The very clear need to be careful with our terminology and our. Language to speak more precisely, and if we can't speak more precisely, then maybe we don't need to speak at all on that issue or on that topic, and so just part of it is to help Christians understand to think through it, to recognize that there is a threat to see some of the ways that it is a threat, to see that illustrated because I think some people think, well, you know. That you know I'm I don't want to be a culture warrior. I don't want to be seen as combative. Of you know, and so helping to think, through some of those issues, because The thing is the culture warriors are there to warn you of the things that are coming down the line that are going to affect all of these other things you know downstream whether you want to be on the front line of the picket line or not. You know, like you're going to be impacted by this downstream and so. Part of it is just to get Christians to think more robustly. Hopefully, yeah, about sexuality beyond what they've just taken on from the.

Andy Miller

Yeah, So what do you think? How do we? Think think about the whole.

Steve Blakemore

Well, first of all, it's it's not an accident that the Metropolitan Church. Launched out of an expression of evangelical Christianity, why do I say that evangelicalism made a profound mistake?

Speaker 4

Right?

Steve Blakemore

And rendering salvation as simply an interpersonal experience of a relationship with Jesus. In the 1970s, Tom T. Hall, the country musician, had a hit song that said me and Jesus got our own thing going. Me and Jesus got it all worked out. We me and Jesus got our own thing going and we don't need anybody to tell us what it's all about. That is, evangelicalism. At its worst, this kind of interiority.

Speaker 4

Right?

Steve Blakemore

Of a relationship with God that doesn't touch necessarily other aspects of my life. But if there's anything we could we could learn from the traditional Roman Catholic theology or the Eastern Orthodox theology. And even really traditional Protestant theology. It's this we are not souls that exist in bodies and therefore we have this spiritual side of us that can be right with God. But our bodily side can be disordered, right? That's that's nostis. That's the ancient test. That's the ancient test. The most ancient of all heresies that the church wrestled with. And we have to help people see that when we come to Christ we are not coming to get an individualized personal relationship with Jesus. That will keep me safe and take me to heaven, but instead we are entering into God's new creation, the restoration of God's original creation, that Christ. Has come to make all things new by restoring what God always wanted things to be. Which and therefore. For the church to to overcome these these threats, we have to move not away from the idea of my personal. Encounter with Christ that nobody can have for me, right? Nobody can have it for me and I can't get it because my grandma was a Christian or just because I I, you know, grew up in a Christian family or whatever, but instead really following Jesus. Belonging to Christ being living in the life of the Holy Spirit. That's the only identity maker that there is that can lead us to life and every other thing that we think is central to our lives. No matter what it is. No, no, even the patriotism.

Andy Miller

Right, even even our religion, even our denomination, our institution.

Steve Blakemore

Yet everything has to be conformed to that image, and so.

Speaker 4

Right?

Steve Blakemore

And that's only going to happen if what MD hopes happens with this book that Christians are going to start to think seriously, deeply and long about this particular threat right now it it could be a catalyst for something much deeper than simply.

Speaker 4

Right, right, right.

Steve Blakemore

Fending off this threat right now, but it needs to be something much deeper and much more comprehensive in the life of the church, I think.

Andy Miller

Well and MD. Our thanks to you for taking on this up and AAFA for really coming after this topic because it's not just like ohh we're just yeah I had somebody respond to me because I'm speaking out toward my denomination about some of the tendencies I see in this direction. They said, well, Andy is just as he against and they quoted me saying against the gays being a part of the Salvation Army. Whoa, no Chad. That's those words never came out of my mouth. But what we're trying to do is say, let's we're a part of a bigger story and our you're hitting on. Our bodies are are the reality of creation is a part of God's story. It tells what God is doing in the world. And our our. Sexuality is a part of that as well. So I think we're dealing with the doctrine of revelation. How God has revealed himself this way, it comes from your like the the documentary that you had about Scripture. And its role in the world. A doctrine of creation, a doctrine of sin. A doctrine of fallenness, a doctrine of sanctification. We've had on all of these things today, so it's so important for us to keep thinking about this and in in West Biblical center, we're gonna be doing something here in February. Bringing together a conference, Steve is going to be a part of this from the philosophical side we have Robert Gagnon. Coming Christopher W. I'm going to leave people out, but about 10 different scholars are coming to present on this question. God's gift of human sexuality, Christian dogma or mere opinion. And this, I think this is another level like are we willing to say that divergences from this tradition? Is outside the bounds of Christian Orthodoxy, and that's another. And you're going to have to just come back or sign up for that course when we have it. Our thanks for you all coming MD. Thanks for coming down from Tupelo today. We're really thankful for your work, your documentary work and your video work. But also this book and I encourage people to go out and find it and the prodigal prayer guy, which you didn't write. That is from a FA, so our thanks to you buddy Smith and all the people at a FA for the great work that.

Steve Blakemore

You're doing with yes.

MD Perkins

Well, thank you. It's good. To be you.

Steve Blakemore

I admire people who will ***** ** the hard things to address, so I admire.

MD Perkins

Thank you, thank you.

Andy Miller

So this has been the thinking is good for you podcast and the more to the story podcast. Thanks for coming along. If you wouldn't mind liking this, leaving a review for whatever it does, it just makes the Facebook world and we're not trying to accommodate them too much. And all those type of people on Apple, iTunes and that type of Apple podcast. It highlights what we're doing, so we would love it if you'd leave a review for this, and thanks for checking this out. God bless you all.