Narcissists, Enablers, and Andy Stanley

I am a big fan of Dr. David E. Clarke. He communicates with the clarity and passion that our society needs. Today we talk about how to develop strategies in working with narcissists and break the cycle of enabling relationships. We also talk a bit about how Andy Stanley’s recent comments might be indicative of these same problems. Check it out here.

Youtube - https://youtu.be/LvRq_9Ev05c

Audio - https://andymilleriii.com/media/podcast

Apple -  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-to-the-story-with-dr-andy-miller/id1569988895?uo=4

Dr. Clarke’s Website -

https://www.davideclarkephd.com/

Does the statement “faithful Christians disagree on issues of human sexuality” line with historic witness of the Church? At WBS we are hosting a conference seeking to answer that question, entitled God’s Gift of Sexuality: Mere Opinion or Christian Dogma. We would love for you to attend online—February 10-11.

Top scholars from across the theological spectrum will present a comprehensive case that the Bible’s view of human sexuality is a necessary requirement of the Christian faith.

In-person attendance is limited, but we would love for you to attend online. Learn more and register now.

Contender: Going Deeper in the Book of Jude - This all-inclusive small group study on the book of Jude is out now. Check it out on the course page: http://courses.andymilleriii.com

Five Steps to Deeper Teaching and Preaching - I’m excited to share some news with you.  Recently, I updated this PDF document and added a 45-minute teaching video with slides, explaining this tool. It's like a mini-course. If you sign up for my list, I will send this free resource to you. Sign up here - www.AndyMillerIII.com or Five Steps to Deeper Teaching and Preaching.

Today’s episode is brought to you by these two sponsors:

Keith Waters and his team at WPO Development do an amazing job helping non-profits and churches through mission planning studies, strategic plans, feasibility studies, and capital campaigns. We are honored to have Keith and WPO on the More to the Story team. You can find out more about them at www.wpodevelopment.com or touch base directly with Keith at Keith.Waters@wpodevelopment.com.

AND

Wesley Biblical Seminary - Interested in going deeper in your faith? Check out our certificate programs, B.A., M.A.s, M.Div., and D.Min degrees. You will study with world-class faculty and the most racially diverse student body in the country. www.wbs.edu

Thanks too to Phil Laeger for my podcast music. You can find out about Phil's music at https://www.laeger.net

Transcript

Welcome to the more to the story. Podcast. This is going to be one of the best, because I have a 3 time to guess coming on. But before I introduce him, and before I tell you more, I just want to make sure you know that the more to the story podcast is brought to you by Wesley Biblical Seminary, where we are developing trusted leaders for faithful churches. And as the Global Methodist Church is emerging, we're hearing that there are many churches that are looking for faithful pastors, and we want to do all that we can

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Andy Miller III: to help train them and help equip the church with the the leaders that we're training on a regular base. So if you are interested in learning more about Wbs westerly Biblical scenario, go to Wbs, dot LED you also. I'm thankful to Keith Waters and his Company Waters Development. They do

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Andy Miller III: capital campaigns, feasibility studies, mission plan saves all over the country. They help nonprofits, schools, churches really think about their future, and how they can get there, and they've been a sponsored this podcast ever since it started, so i'm so thankful to Keith and his team. So you can find out more about them@wpodevelopment.com.

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Andy Miller III: Also.

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Andy Miller III: if you are interested in learning how you can go deeper in your own teaching and preaching. I encourage you to go to my website and sign up for my email list. Andy Miller iii.com and I have this

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Andy Miller III: 45 min mini course on going deep in your teacher teaching and preaching. And it's a eight-page document that's available for you and a video teaching. So I love to share with you. So go and sign up for my email. That's the Andy Miller. third.com all right, i'm bringing in the first ever 3 time guest.

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Andy Miller III: and the more it's a story podcast, and that is my man.

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david clarke: Dr. David E. Clark, Dr. Clark. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks, Andy. I I I i've had people on twice. But you're the first three-time guest in. Look, I am a mega fan of

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Andy Miller III: David e Clark ministries, because you know how I know that because Facebook told me that I am a top fan. I'm a top fan, so I I just love what you're doing. Now look that, Dr. Clark, you are becoming a a phenomenon on Tik, Tok and Facebook. What's up with that?

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david clarke: Oh, my goodness! And you wouldn't believe it! What God could do

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david clarke: this whole new administrative of helping abuse wives especially get out of these

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david clarke: abuse of narcissistic relationships. It's just taken off. If you can believe this on tik to my son in law, Phil, do. This of Duke is creative, is doing all this, and so he's got these the tiktok videos. One has over 8 million views. Oh, my goodness, it's like

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david clarke: It's incredible! So we've hit a chord.

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david clarke: I come across passwords all the time. They don't think narcissism is really a big deal.

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david clarke: Well, you know what it is a big deal. It's spreading opens. The ladies are fighting with this some men, too, so it's like Whoa! So. Praise God, he's just really. We're almost too busy. I was moving into semi retirement that's over with. Now we are.

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Andy Miller III: It's interesting. I think you as You've become bigger lately. Now look

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Andy Miller III: I in my in my mind. You've always been big, because to me

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Andy Miller III: I've been following you for more than a decade, and I like. I've known what you know the type of things you're doing, but you go on last year with your book. I'm going to hold it up the book came out through moody press. Enough is enough, well, you know, and initially we got a couple of nice responses, and some some people reached out, and I think it really touched them. Well, I, Dr. Clark, in the last month

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Andy Miller III: that video has had 1,500 views on on Youtube.

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Andy Miller III: Wow! Amazing gathering steam. Oh, my goodness, yeah. So so why is narcissism? Something that you're so interested in talking about? What is it about narcissism that you think is important. This is in our society now. It's important. Why is the tragedy? What's going on?

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david clarke: Oh, my goodness, it it's just accelerating. I always saw it in my practice.

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david clarke: But over the last, probably 5, 6 years, I think it's just really mushrooming become of the becoming part of our consciousness. Even in Christians. We're always behind the curve, the Christian Church. But you know you take that out of society

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david clarke: out of the universities, out of the schools, off the school boards you know any any he's he's really out of the culture. Can't talk about it. We see this anti-christian coming in. Okay, Well, what do you expect that leaves us with ourselves, or already selfish. The old nature, so media is, feel that the breakdown of the family.

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david clarke: which can be a part of score. When When families write down, you either spoil the children which creates narcissism because you're making up for what you did to them, or they're treated so badly that you know. If i'm a i'm a boy or a girl like

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david clarke: I have to survive, and so it's about me. I got to get through this I got a cope. And so that reads Narcissus.

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david clarke: Of course our politicians are narcissists. Our leaders are narcissists.

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david clarke: Huh? Hey? Whoa.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah. So

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Andy Miller III: when we

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Andy Miller III: tackle this problem we get to a place where we realize that that's just going. What's the response? If you realize that you're a narcissist or you're living with the narcissist like how? What? What are some quick responses that we can have? Maybe there is no quick response.

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david clarke: Well, with Dr. Clark there is always a quick response.

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david clarke: Look! If you're a narcissist, I I I that's not I don't help you. I have other people. I can send you to. Not many of that if you're d in the will, full blown narcissist, you're not change very small. I mean 5, 6. That's probably not

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david clarke: so. I'm working with the victim. The one who's caught

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david clarke: Usually a woman could be a man caught with this this narcissist, and it's not just a selfish person. It's well beyond that I just a lousy husband. This man is destroying you.

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david clarke: He's criticizing you. He's ripping into pieces. He's taking your identity. He's poisoning your own kids against you it is just an ongoing nightmare.

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david clarke: And so we're talking about a monster. So i'm going to help you biblically with the moody book, and the 20 lies book we have a whole collection of materials videos to to get you strong enough.

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david clarke: Believe the guy.

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Andy Miller III: Hmm.

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david clarke: Then he has a chance golden opportunity to, in fact, break and change and repent. Take him 8, 9, 10 months to a year to really prove it.

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david clarke: Most of them are gonna do that, and so God will direct you. But we're we're having a lot of success doing that. God just blessing what we're doing. We we feel like we're on the right track.

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Andy Miller III: And so it's a it's a hard thing, because at some point, because of the narcissist behavior, and because of what they're doing to their wives. I'm just going to say that I mean it it sometimes. Of course it's also wives to men. The wife is a nurses, but if if that is the case like

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Andy Miller III: you. You're you're leading them to divorce in. In some many cases like. Is that a tough thing to have to work through, I mean. But if this gets to the issue of abuse in general, like we need to encourage people to get out of abusive situations. Right?

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david clarke: Yeah, i'm. I guess it's the way God made me. I'm okay. With that I wasn't. For 30 years we're saving marriages, and of course I would. I don't recommend divorce, but i'm i'm moving closer to you gotta get out. I was to sell people get out

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david clarke: and and you don't have any. You know many options god's gonna lead you. I'm. Okay, with that. It's been a weird kind of a transition. But I feel like God is blessing what we're doing.

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david clarke: And this is why God has these Biblical exceptions in the Bible. These are catastrophic events, Even what inc of adultery is catastrophic, and the marriage is over now, can you rebuild it? If the person repents absolutely. You can. I've helped hundreds of couples do that. Abandon it by the the non Christian Catastrophic marriage over

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david clarke: now, I believe, of course, is chronic, ongoing, never going to stop emotional us is also a Biblical reason.

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david clarke: You know the whole. It can be a whole Biblical case for that.

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david clarke: And so that is also that ends of marriage. So what you're doing if you do that God guide, guide you the file, You're only formalizing what is already happening. Your Your spouse has destroyed the marriage. He's on the way to destroying you. It's okay. To get out. Absolutely. It is

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Andy Miller III: So you've said that you've You've added the idea of emotional views as well, which is like kind of like a a

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Andy Miller III: not always been there not something that the Christian community has emphasized. Tell me about that.

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david clarke: What? This this is probably the last 2 years, and this is kind of been part of the fuel of what we're doing now who I've always respected. I I think he's brilliant.

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david clarke: He has come to this conclusion. He wrote a small book about it. He's got some online material. I thought, Wow! I always kind of wanted to believe that this is a chrome. Get out.

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david clarke: but I really only had the first 2.

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david clarke: Well, he makes a strong case first, for the and 7 15 is is kind of the hallmark of his case.

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david clarke: First 15 to 7, 15, B.

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david clarke: When it says it first, of course, is the abandonment by the unbeliever. Now we know that clear. Okay, you can get out. That's that's the reason for the books.

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david clarke: because that person. Whats that? Okay, but the second half of that verse in such circumstances I love his case. It's like a wow

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david clarke: like Gary chapman's 5 blood languages. Whoa! I did never thought of it.

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david clarke: That's that's where

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david clarke: he's parallel in that in the same way as if it was an abandonment by an unbeliever that level of trauma. That's another reason. Of course, we have Old Testament support as well as as well as other teaching the dealing with the serious center. Yeah, I believe it's true. And of course we look at a loving Father. For Heaven's sake, why would he want you

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david clarke: to stay with a man even staying in a marriage with a man who is destroying you and your kids. He he wouldn't want that right right.

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Andy Miller III: Look, you know, Dr. Clark, part of the reason I love having you on so much is Well, first of all, I just like being around you. Okay, I will thank you. That's a fan of you. I'm not sure if Facebook says that. But i'm a fan.

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Andy Miller III: Okay, I know You're probably not even on it yourself. But you know i'm not. Phil Dubus is doing all this. I love it. It it's like, you know. I I I I've always appreciated your ministry, and but but this a second reason is the other times I've had you on every time I have. Okay, just 2 times those 2 times

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Andy Miller III: there have been people who have connected with me. I've sometimes connected them with you connected in with your books who have

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Andy Miller III: left abusive situations.

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Andy Miller III: but in it sometimes, I wonder like, is this a narcissistic thing? Me doing the podcast in general like. Am I just like trying? But I really believe that God uses the opportunity to have conversations. Even the fact that you and I have a friendship, and we are in Tampa, Florida together, and all this sort of thing that God uses, that to help people get out

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Andy Miller III: of terrible situations, where somebody who is willfully sinning is abusing another person. So I just want to encourage people to listen to these words of Dr. Clark, I mean one of the things after Clark that comes up sometimes. People who are in these situations is that they don't want to disappoint God. They think somehow that if they can't change

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Andy Miller III: their husband or or their spouse, or they're in the abusive situation that they're going to disappoint God. How do you respond to that.

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david clarke: Oh, I tell! And this shocks, and when I tell them that these are good hearted souls, and they really have parts of gold, and they don't want to disappoint God, I told them. Look, you're gonna disappoint God if you stay looking at it from the other direction. They're staying glorified him. And that's why we're here on our serving. Glorify the Lord. What! This does not glorify him.

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david clarke: So we have to kind of get their thinking changed.

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david clarke: and I actual in the verses, and and how, what does staying do? And frankly, even though I don't really care about the narcissist. Frankly, you know what it the the only opportunity he's ever going to have to change is when you leave him.

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david clarke: That's enabling that's co-dependency. He thinks everything's fine. These guys are clueless

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david clarke: and they don't care. So you're and this is Biblical too. God gives all of us an opportunity. You're giving him an opportunity about that. Actually, I say, look, this is now about you, not the selfish way this is about you and your kids now.

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david clarke: and about the for 10 years, 1520, 30 years now it's about you, and you have every right to protect your

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david clarke: yourself.

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david clarke: I talked to these ladies in their sixties and and and late fifties, and and they're still with the narcissist and their kids hate them, and they and they're broken down physically, and they're broken down emotionally. And I say it, you can still get out. You've still got time. That's still going to bless you. But the cost

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david clarke: we're trying to get them out as soon as we can, right.

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Andy Miller III: and one of the things that you do. I mean, you have several books that do this. Maybe you could point to one. It's like a lot of people have very practical questions like how to work with a lawyer. What does this mean by? I mean they? They maybe people have 0 financial life, you know, like, how are they going to be? I'll make it work. What? What? What's one of those books that you can point people to if they're looking for a plan for how to get out of the situation.

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david clarke: We've got a 1, 2 pot, and we've got the 20 lies that keep you with your abuser book which really attacks the codependency. Look, there it is there it is there it is

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david clarke: the my biggest fan.

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david clarke: I feel the same way about you, so that that gets the coded pendency out of it, and begins to strengthen the woman as she's still with the guy, because you don't leave tomorrow, you're not ready to leave. You got to be strong. Got to get the kids right. They got to get a survey that' get close to the board, got it built your support team. And so there's a shift, and you're getting your identity back through the 20 Lies Book, because you've given that up

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david clarke: and you feel like you're you're helpless. That gets you strong. Then shift over to the enough is enough book which means I can sell 2 books, and that's always good. The blonde answer needs, and then watch the video on Tik, Tok and Youtube and all those places that's fine.

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david clarke: Now enough is enough is a very specific preparation plan Biblically. Why, you can leave Why, God actually wants you to leave. That's okay with it. He wants you to leave. If you're with a monster and I define it. Use very carefully. I don't want to be misused.

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david clarke: And then, of course, the Biblical support, and then step by step, preparation. You'll like this, Andy right now. I'm running a brand new book.

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david clarke: This is gonna be revolutionary.

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david clarke: and a lot of Christian radio people are gonna have me up.

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david clarke: But, Andy Miller, I I I will. You got it. Yeah, this is it's called escaping your narcissist. It's gonna come out probably in the fall. Self-published.

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david clarke: Because no one's touching this book. And i'm talking about actually what to expect when you divorce a narcissist, and in a few weeks not now. You've decided you've gone to the first to book. Okay, now, i'm getting out

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david clarke: going. And and you're You're filing what? That process is like. Oh, it's! And it's a nightmare. If living with an arc is bad divorcing him is awful. So you gotta gotta be strong. Someone to get the the lady strong all the different areas of strength, and then just to survive and get through.

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Andy Miller III: Wow! So so this there's a whole, another, another category of things that need to happen

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Andy Miller III: after you actually make the moves because I'm I'm sure they're not happy with how this works. Okay, like they they like the arrangement they had.

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david clarke: Oh, you you threaten a Narciss control and his image. Oh, my! He doesn't love you, he when he loves himself, but he doesn't want to be divorced. They'll rarely file.

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david clarke: He wants to stay married to you. Legitimacy. Take care of the kids, you know, making love to you, even though it's just sex for him, you know. But he he wants, and he can do whatever he wants, or you're threatening that. And also it's his money. I don't care if you make more than him. It's his money.

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david clarke: And so all of the back got to get ready for the backlash he's gonna hire. He's sleazy attorney, and and you're gonna have to fight that so? All the steps getting protecting your kids

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david clarke: fake repentance. I'm. Covering the waterfront. It's going to be very intense and very specific. I'm.

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Andy Miller III: When i'm writing a book. I I feel like i'm never closer to God, because he's right with me, and we're doing it together, and it's coming together. Oh, I love it. Okay. Now, one of the things you do is you help in? I think you've done this in multiple books to find codependency like you have a a distinct definition, Christian codependency.

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david clarke: Yes, I do.

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david clarke: Here it is.

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david clarke: It begins with following popular Christian advice, which is kind of sad, because many pastors are close and they'll and they fuel this. So, following popular Christian advice, let me try and get this done right.

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david clarke: Yes, and feel by deeply entrenched lies. Of course that's why the book is called 20 lies.

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david clarke: You.

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david clarke: You give up your identity, who you are, what you think, what you feel, your hopes, your dreams, even your relationship with the Lord and your service for him

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david clarke: in a desperate, unbiblical, destructive attempt to change the abuser you live with.

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david clarke: This is not garden variety, codependence where i'm married to a wonderful guy, and he's he's a I treated like a king, and i'm kind of codependent, but he takes care of me. I'm not talking about that.

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david clarke: This is a Co. Depending on a dirt ball. Who's destroying you? But you're thinking, and these poor ladies they think they're doing the right thing. It's an epiphany when they realize i'm not doing the right thing. I'm enabling this guy to continue the abuse, and it takes time for the gears to change this doesn't happen overnight.

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Andy Miller III: All right in the 3, 2, one.

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david clarke: These ladies are amazed when they realize they're doing the wrong thing by staying the wrong thing by keeping trying to love him, and read marriage books, and talk to the pastor and go to marriage counseling. You, don't waste your time in marriage counting with a narcissist.

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Andy Miller III: Hmm!

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david clarke: If he's you, you lose it the way. When I saw those guys I confront them right away, because that's who I am. They're out by doing 5 min. I hate you. You're a quack. Okay, fine. And then I work with the other lady. Or if you, if you're more passive and you try to build a relationship with the narcissist and kind of draw him in Eventually you're gonna have to say, hey, how about your issues, and you'll still bolt.

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david clarke: So it's just a waste of you. Don't do that. You get your own personal work to get strong enough to leave him. He doesn't know that. But that's what you're doing.

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Andy Miller III: Let me ask you a question. Then. Outside of marriage, where, when you're dealing with narcissist in other contexts. Maybe it's work. Maybe it's a a boss. Maybe it's family. Maybe it's extended family. Maybe it's a neighbor. I don't know what is. Well, could you give some advice for dealing with nurses in those situations. It's not as the

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Andy Miller III: I probably is, terrible as it is in the in the sense of marriage because you're under the same roof. But we're having to learn to deal with these situations all over society, since this is almost a pandemic in itself.

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david clarke: Oh, boy, it's good point, and i'm dealing with more and more with those cases, too. Yeah, the boss the co-worker the mother in law shouldn't say mother-in-law the father of in law, your own father, your own mother, your brother, sister, right?

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david clarke: And if you work for the man, and then you have a supervisor who is like that? Oh, that you don't live with them, which is good. But yeah, this is the case where you have to learn how to manage them, and how to deal with this person in a in a firm but Chrysler way. And there's ways to manage.

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david clarke: If you need your job, for example, you need to stay in that relationship. Okay for a while. Okay, Ultimately you could leave if you have to, if it's a relative, I don't care who it is the Bible is there? There are no caveats on sin, and this sort of behavior is simple.

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david clarke: and so you confront it, you know, in reasonable ways, and if they don't respond like Matthew, 1850 to 17, in case. Okay, game over relationships suspended until there's repentance that could be the rest of your lives, because these people don't change.

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david clarke: But to continue to go over to the person's house and have them criticize your kids or treat you like garbage. You don't have to do that. They have to. Well, it's my family. It doesn't make any difference. No.

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david clarke: you don't just suddenly cut them off. They have ample opportunity, and Scripture indicate stages of confrontation.

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david clarke: I talk to you. I bring in one or 2 witnesses. I go to my pastor, see if you'll help me. Nobody does this. You should boom, boom, and then, if they don't respond to that. Okay, i'm done.

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david clarke: I'm coming over for Christmas. There, maybe Christmas cards, or you might reach out, not thinking of you loving you. But you're done.

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david clarke: If you don't do that, they're obviously never going to change. They have no reason to. I can disrespect you and damage you, and you take it.

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david clarke: Am I going to stop? No, i'm not going to stop.

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Andy Miller III: Wow!

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Andy Miller III: So it takes that moment of like really having to.

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Andy Miller III: You have the confidence in the strength to stand up, and those situations right to be able to call just like you do like it, it it to to change the behavior.

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Andy Miller III: The woman in in the marriage context. The woman leaves right, and i'm Again, i'm just using the woman as an example. And and and do you think the same thing happens in other relationships as well? It's like You need to have that moment where you say this is this relationship. Isn't going to be marked by this anymore?

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david clarke: Right? Same thing. You can have an adult child adult prodigal Who's who's disrespecting the Lord and you and living a sinful lifestyle as an adult. Okay, you're going to go through some stages of confrontation.

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david clarke: because prodigalism is a part of is is a form of narcissism. It's the same thing.

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david clarke: Oh, interesting. I i'm done. I've I've I've spoken the truth, and the relationship may remain on some level, but it's not going to be the same. Wow, no, that's a new book you have coming out right. It is. In fact, this is yeah, I can show. I'm not sure if you. Yeah, I don't just happen to have it right here, but a soccer I don't feel to break your heart. This is available now.

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Andy Miller III: So people are in this spot.

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david clarke: And again, I think it's part of the fueling of narcissism. It's just really increase the prodigal adults that we have in our society, because society tells every single one of them in these categories. You're fine

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david clarke: sexual. No problem transgender, hey? Great! Let's have a parade when when they're destroying themselves. We're living all these young people that are Christians, and they're living with each other wrong. It it's sinful of your parents cutting off the Lord all the different societies. Fine with that, because you can do whatever you want.

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david clarke: and it's okay.

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david clarke: So we're we're fighting that. And again it's the same thing. You're going to confront it. I got a series of steps. Always have a plan, and then we we move out of that relationship, and then, when they make a call and they're ready to repent, as the Bible teaches us, everything changes. I'll course from that

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Andy Miller III: Well, as a result of the sexual revolution in all that we're experiencing. Now, with the way people and Christians and Christian leaders are changing their views on human sexuality. You know. How does it generally happen? It comes because of a family member a lot of the times

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Andy Miller III: it's like. Well, I have this family member, and there it maybe comes to a place where you don't want to say the the hard truth. You don't want to acknowledge that that there is a move that the lifestyle that is existing is against God's design, and it's ultimately hurting someone. Why? Because that puts us in an uncomfortable situation.

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Andy Miller III: And in you know, Wesley Biblical Seminary, we have a conference is going to be happening in mid- February, where we're like really tackling. This question and this is is going to get us in trouble, and many seminaries wouldn't do this. But David Clark would sign up for this. I'm sure it's like, is human sexuality.

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Andy Miller III: dogma, Christian dogma, or is it just mere opinion.

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Andy Miller III: is it? And this is what's separating churches. Many of my listeners are part of the global Methodist Church. Many are part of the Salvation army and other like, have Wesley and nominations and non-denominational churches. Everybody's dealing with this right but are we willing to say this isn't just something that faithful Christians disagree about.

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Andy Miller III: and if we do like, at a place where we think that the nature of the human body, human sexuality as a whole, and the way we express that the distinction between male and female

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Andy Miller III: is Christian dogma.

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Andy Miller III: Then we actually have to live differently because of that truth.

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david clarke: because now, not only are we against society? Of course that's always been the case even more so. Now now we're against many in the church. What does God say in the Bible.

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david clarke: It's clear as about people are twisting that misinterpreted. No, no, he says this now we love them, we care for them, we try to. We try to convert them. We try to get them out of the out of the simple sexuality in all of its forms, living with someone and and having sex with that person outside of marriage is just as bad.

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david clarke: Okay? Well, we're not gonna allow them to serve in the territory. Leaders and churches are starting to do that because we hate to offend anyone

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david clarke: just offended people so much that they killed him. So we we need to step up now. It's not in love

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david clarke: Christians, legalists who just cut them off. They they can't come here, of course not. We're loving. We're caring, no matter what the category of Sit and we're all centers. We are trying to

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david clarke: go sanctified with with the Lord's power, and become different and change.

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david clarke: and of course they can change.

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david clarke: Society says, No, you're born that way. God doesn't say that that's never been true, and it's not true. Now

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Andy Miller III: imagine somebody's listening, Dr. Clark, to this podcast right now, and they're like. Well, my my son just came out, or my my child just came out, or or they're presenting as another gender. And

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Andy Miller III: your this book that you have coming out dealing with the heartbreak of the particles in your life. What what you're suggesting is, you need to have an act of plan of action for the Narcissist protocol right to help, then get back on track, not just merely to accept their behavior

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david clarke: right, which is what society wants to do and what they want you to do. This would be putting you in a simple position. Now, as far as you say, it's awkward, and and in many cases it's going to lead to a broken relationship, at least for a time.

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david clarke: But there's a chance, and there's all kinds of steps that I apply to all chronicle scenarios, and I 0 one on 10, and one of them is the my my son's come out of this gay, or my daughter's come out as Lesbian live, and that's just a hard talk about a hard problem that way. Oh, my goodness! And you know the whore they are going to face because it does it's not God's plan, and it doesn't work. It's never worked

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david clarke: right.

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david clarke: But you're gonna take care of your own parental sin. You're gonna you're gonna confront sin lovingly but firmly, and there'll be boundaries on the relationship

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david clarke: not going to be well received.

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Andy Miller III: Well look out for this book, folks. It's coming. It's coming soon, and and maybe we'll have you on the talk about again. I would love that. But before we finish up you said something that's kind of interesting to me and it we're going to talk about a contemporary issue. So people who are going to watch this video in 2,050, when this is like over a 1 million views, you might not know what's going on but January 2,023 in the church world. I got a story of a well known church leader. Andy Stanley has kind of come to the fore, and I mean you might not know about this, and I have a reason for asking you.

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Andy Miller III: because i'm thinking of this through the lens of behavioralism, and like the the reality of what we want people to do like you come from. You work with people, confront people when they're in the midst of saying, you want to lead them to another place. Well, he's just. I don't know if it's recent, a video has emerged, maybe of a past conference where he's saying, Well, all the gay people. And now I'm summarizing here, forgive me for not getting this perfect. I'm. All All the gay people in my church are the best volunteers, and they've been abused for so long, and the church. Hasn't liked them

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Andy Miller III: all that we can in. I just wish that basically my heterosexual people, my church would be just as good and have as much faith as the gay people in my church, and so he uses that term very kind of broadly.

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Andy Miller III: But it's this: it's this interesting thing like, and I I've always appreciated the fact that he's trying to help people think about unchurched people getting people into a place where they're going to be in a position to be able to accept Jesus to become Christians. But there's a little bit of uneasiness, and I feel of this like I feel like it's not dealing with the truth altogether like. I just wonder when they will. But i'm curious how you

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Andy Miller III: you respond to that in trying to think about human behavior.

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david clarke: I would say, Andy, if Andy called me. He won't, but Andy not this Andy the other, Andy Stanley Andy, You've gone too far. If we agree, I think we would that what they're doing in their lifestyle is destroying them.

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david clarke: Then we we have to take a stand against them. We love them, they are invited to the Church, they certainly can attend. They cannot, the small groups, all that.

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david clarke: however, they cannot serve, and they cannot lead that that would be a violation of Scripture because of the lifestyle any more that a couple of in their fifties who know Jesus, and who are living together also it' be the same thing.

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david clarke: But this this is this is cultural creep. We know what Andy is trying to do. We want to be inclusive and have them come, and then maybe along the way they'll make a change because of that love. No, they won't, because what you end up doing is enabling

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david clarke: you're applauding you. You can't do that.

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david clarke: you You come alongside of them. Once you realize what's happening and the pasture and the key leaders have to be trained and on board it's always done in love.

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david clarke: We have a concern. We love to have you come here, and instead of the word

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david clarke: but your but the lifestyle is is a sinful lifestyle, and that's because God says it is, and because it's destroying you. And so let's let's work together when you're ready to to to get you out of this lifestyle. Now, if they never come back to your church, you okay. But that is a Se. That's planted.

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david clarke: and and maybe it will impact them down the road. They're driving their cars. Anybody in serious in over a cliff. They're going towards a cliff.

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david clarke: And and now Andy Stanley is in effect, you know, standing by the side and going, yeah, hey? Hey? I like your car. Everything looks good. They're going over the clip. We have to get into the road and see if we can stop them. That's that's not fun to do. But that's that's what Biblical leaders need to do.

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david clarke: It protects the body.

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Andy Miller III: Okay, that you know that that would mean you're never going to teach on that because you might offend them. We need to teach the entire description, and that's part of it.

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david clarke: Wow! Always it love never, you know criminations, or you know, making it feel bad, or you know you're going to hell. Nothing like that it's just this is wrong. Here's why it's wrong. And here's the way out.

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Andy Miller III: I mean, these are the loving responses, since the same thing is that you've talked about throughout your ministry of dealing with a narcissistic spouse who's abusing like a of users protocols and the like. We want them to get in a better place, and we do that because we love them, and we speak the truth in love. So there's like

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Andy Miller III: Jesus comes full of grace and truth. We want to make sure that we're finding ways to do that. Okay, I know. I'm taking your time. Is there anything happening? Anything else you want to talk about any more to this story to Dr. Clark before we say goodbye.

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david clarke: we just just to praise God, he is just. Of course we know he's awesome. We were kind of, in a sense, kind of winding down, and we got his blessed us with some finances, and it's like I think i'm gonna do a few things. God has a different plan, and this is where we are galvanized. We're energized the blonde, and I

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david clarke: at working with Phil Douglas, my son in law and things are just happening, and we feel like man is just rebuilt. I'm only 63 only 63 come on.

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david clarke: And so right. And so we're gonna. We're gonna run this because God is blessing. They say, Dave, I got something else for you to do, and this is what I want you to do.

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david clarke: and it's awesome. So pray Scott, for that. Oh, man, I love it! Thanks so much for coming on podcast. We really appreciate your time, Dr. Clark. Always my pleasure first 3 time where I will cherish that i'm going to tell the blond. It's hard to impress her. I think she'll be

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Andy Miller III: sounds great.