Enough is Enough with Dr. David E. Clarke

Enough is Enough: A Step-by-Step Plan to Leave an Abusive Relationship with God’s Help

Here are the links:

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw_DmWW9BmI

Audio - https://andymilleriii.com/media/podcast

Apple - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-to-the-story-with-dr-andy-miller/id1569988895?uo=4

When the abuse starts, that’s when you know enough is enough. It’s time to find a haven somewhere else. There will be a chance down the road to assess where your marriage is headed n the long term. No one is saying divorce is the inevitable outcome. God can transform anyone. But He doesn’t promise to do that. People choose to persist in sin. And that’s why it’s imperative for you to leave . . . so you can think clearly, take stock of the situation, and most of all, protect yourself and those whom you love. Dr. David Clarke, a licensed psychologist specializing in marital therapy for more than 30 years, wants to help you make the break from your abusive relationship. Whether or not divorce is on the horizon is beside the point. You need to get out so you can sort it out.

Dr. Clarke understands this journey won’t be easy. That’s why he provides a step-by-step plan that includes practical advice as well as biblical guidance. But leave you must, because abuse is a sin that doesn’t come from above. Let this book help you get away from your abuser so you can give your marriage the best chance to succeed. Because only with some distance will you be able to see what your loving, ever-faithful God has in store for you.

DAVID E. CLARKE, PH.D., is a Christian psychologist, speaker, and
the author of fifteen books, including I Don’t Want a Divorce, My
Spouse Wants Out, and I Don’t Love You Anymore. He is a graduate
of Dallas Theological Seminary and Western Conservative Baptist
Seminary. He has been in private practice for more than thirty years,
focusing on marriages in crisis. He and his blonde wife, Sandy, live in
Tampa, Florida. They have four children and four grandchildren (so far;
they have asked for more grandkids).

This transcript likely contains errors, for the most accuracy see the video/audio file.


Welcome to the more to the story podcast i'm so glad you came along, today is a great episode, I have my friend, Dr David E Clark on the podcast with me, Dr Clarke, welcome to the podcast.

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david clarke: Thanks Andy thanks for the E.

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Andy Miller III: Though look our middle names are important i'm Andrew s Miller and you said you always include the ease I thought I should.

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david clarke: Go people forget that middle that's right yes.

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Andy Miller III: So, Dr Clark is a psychologist speaker and author, some of you will recognize his voice from his work, I mean he's been on national shows, particularly folks in the family.

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Andy Miller III: that's where I came in contact with Dr Clark, and so, then I found out we work just a mile apart from.

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Andy Miller III: each other in Tampa Florida so i'm just so thankful for the opportunity we get to talk about your new book here so Dr Clark watching us fill us in on this new book enough is enough, why did you decide to write this book.

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david clarke: And the, the problem of abuse, especially emotional abuse is a serious one in the church The numbers are a lot higher than people realize and, as usual, the church evangelical church lags behind.

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david clarke: In dealing with this problem in an effective way they ignore it, or they miss handle it.

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david clarke: i've seen that over good passer godly people they just and biblical counselors don't know how to handle it.

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david clarke: And so I thought you know what I want to put this book out there, I was dealing with client after client that had this issue.

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david clarke: And so it's very viable, because very specific, very clear very direct like most of my books, like all of them in terms of what you're dealing with how to understand abuse defined it and how to get away from it.

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Andy Miller III: wow, and this is something that you specialize in like you've been a me a psychologist for more than 35 years and you've dealt with this time and time again, I mean is it's this kind of your specialty i'm sorry to say, specially nobody wants to specialize in something so bad.

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david clarke: I mean, I do.

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david clarke: miracle crisis is my thing is, you know and that's what I do.

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david clarke: Normal couples I don't do Premarital because it drives me crazy, I want to happy people who are getting married I can't do anything with that.

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david clarke: I gotta have a mess and So yes, I do the abuse the abuse spouses my thing.

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david clarke: yeah if you see a lady could be a man, how to help them get strong enough frankly to leave now.

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david clarke: I will say they don't even know they're being abused, most of the time.

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david clarke: They grow up that way that they're used to it.

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david clarke: they're living in denial, so my job is to break them out of denial, so you don't know this is an emotional abuser.

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david clarke: I don't use that term loosely if it's not true it's not true, but if it is true boom, we have to do something about it.

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Andy Miller III: Right absolutely I mean I got help as we get started here help me to understand what you mean by abuse what is abuse.

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david clarke: Good question, it is a pattern it's not just every now and then oh boy he had a bad day it is an ongoing pattern of narcissistic disrespectful and harmful behavior exhibited by one person in an intimate relationship.

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david clarke: Okay, typically marriage yeah.

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Andy Miller III: So, so in that case, then it's not just physical abuse.

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david clarke: Right, that is a particularly heinous example of it but it's.

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david clarke: Like and the Church, the church even understands that most folks get the physical abuse thing well that's outrageous and you gotta leave and, yes, you do.

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david clarke: But what they miss is the emotional abuse which, frankly, is just as bad if not more damaging than the physical abuse yeah because it just rips and tears if D personalizes it strips away a person's identity, it does incredible amount of damage.

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Andy Miller III: So it's kind of maybe I know that you have dozens of examples this but help me know like a few of these examples of of emotional abuse like when does this happen.

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david clarke: here's what it looks like Andy this, for example, verbal criticism is a major factor here.

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david clarke: Okay, and this is this is criticism across the board and it's an irregular basis and it never stops if it's the husband who's the abuser which usually is he'll criticize the wipes away.

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david clarke: i'll talk to criticize the wife in the bedroom no criticize the lifestyle housekeeping mothering if she has a job anything she does is cut down never good enough and it never quite end that's how he maintains control over her.

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david clarke: And for the abuser who's also a narcissist usually controls everything to them, he wants you to be one down and he wants you to keep trying to please him, but the game is it's never going to work.

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david clarke: And, of course, also there's there's an absolute neglected for needs the Bible is clear the husband has to meet the wife's needs.

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david clarke: We see the undefeated 525.

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david clarke: lover as Christ loved the church that covers everything well he could care less it's all about his needs her needs mean nothing.

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david clarke: hmm there'll be the silent treatment kind of a classic technique of the narcissist either it's always a model on people rant and rave and criticize, and then you have to agree with them, or will just get worse.

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david clarke: And you do disagree, he will shave his these guys shut down for days and weeks and months of just cutting her off no communication.

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david clarke: yeah for a woman that's just awful.

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david clarke: yeah and these guys could end the course they have no conscience, so they always believe they're right he has no he's never felt bad about it he's done his life.

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david clarke: wow could take the form of course he controls the finances controls your friends controls what church you go to controls your the clothes you wear controllers always have major factor and abuse.

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david clarke: huh he will slam you to other people even your own children lot of these guys will over a course of decades turn your own children against you.

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david clarke: wow well moms in the lunch table it months crazy, you can take an incident where maybe you lost control of melted down but that's about mom because he wants to win them to I mean it's just how insidious.

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david clarke: yeah that could be an addiction they're usually it's gonna be a sex addiction could be an alcoholic or drug addict.

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david clarke: So those are these are serious categories, this is not a guy that struggles with something has gotten better and is walking with the Lord, oh no he's a dirtball I mean for lack of a better word hey.

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david clarke: Well, I ended up.

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Andy Miller III: yeah I appreciate, you said, because that I had done a podcast last time with your book that you self publish call my spouse wants out and we had that conversation the day that I published it, I had a couple people contact me and say this is me.

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Andy Miller III: And, and I think what was helpful.

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Andy Miller III: And some people don't like this approach, I know you've probably heard this criticism, like you just said, this is a dirt ball.

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Andy Miller III: And you like ask people to kind of get in a realistic place to realize what has happened with the challenge, and this is the challenge is that people are listening to you right now, and they heard right in that moment that's me.

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Andy Miller III: wait before we go i'm have some other questions, I want to, but like before we go on, what do you say to those people if they're sensing that they're kind of like feeling oh I can't do this, this would be too hard and but what do you say to somebody who's living with a dirtball.

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david clarke: Well, I say look at this was a process you're not you're not going to get strong enough today to leave him you're not this may take weeks, months, even a year or two, but you, we have to start the journey.

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david clarke: Because, by the time I see them Andy and you're you've been a pastor you know what that's like they are just so devastated they can't they can't even think about.

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david clarke: Right, however, we serve the God of the universe, who has infinite power, he can do anything.

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david clarke: Until that person doesn't know Jesus, I will I will introduce them to Jesus.

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david clarke: i'm the last time they are Christians, and so we start a process, first we defined it very carefully.

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david clarke: They want to make sure, well, I need to make sure that what you're saying is true, I say I walk them through their story.

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david clarke: After 35 years doesn't take long all that I say look he's doing this he's doing that there's telling their story, but it's like they're talking for somebody else they you know they think it's okay they're in denial.

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david clarke: So I will say after 45 minutes on the phone with them or in person, you are married to an emotional abuse or you absolutely look at look at all these.

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david clarke: Until that the light and they'll they'll resist me on that because there's more enough to know blah, if this is true that i'm gonna have to do something about this.

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david clarke: Right it's destroying needs to torment children and i'll even tell them look we're going to give this abuser chance it's destroying him to we're going to get.

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Andy Miller III: A high.

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david clarke: To change hey fair, so it just I had to break takes a couple sessions to break through the denial barrier.

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Andy Miller III: yeah I want to hammer i'm not i'm not a warm fuzzy guy.

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david clarke: i'm just going to deploy and i'll say look i'm just telling you, you can do what you want, you can choose to stay with that guy until everything's distort God will allow that but he doesn't want you to do that.

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david clarke: wow well I gotta get him out of the denial, both under cold hard reality land mass and realize okay here's what i'm dealing with.

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david clarke: And we had to get strong enough.

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david clarke: Because many of these ladies, you know Andy have they grew up in a home where there was an abusive mom or dad was.

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david clarke: abusive one parent passive they've seen it and so they're just this is just the way it is why they chose this guy in the first place, so they have to get the have to work through some things to get strong enough to go, you know what I have a voice i'm not putting up with this anymore.

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Andy Miller III: yeah yeah I just hope people are listening like this might just be the place where people have come to, and I hope that you'll take.

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Andy Miller III: Dr clark's encouragement and I mean what's the likelihood about no i'm not trying to look for odds necessarily but of things being restored, I mean.

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Andy Miller III: If it's going to be restored it's going to have to take this tough approach, where you knowledge what it is i'm but is there any hope of restoration when abuses happened.

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david clarke: There so yeah.

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david clarke: And I never know you know what which of us is going to change in which one well, but the fact is, if it's a bonafide abuser the way i'm describing it yeah it's not good four to 6% that's what you're looking at yeah.

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david clarke: Now, fair enough and biblically we give we give the Center a chance.

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david clarke: Right, the Bible is clear, we could front, we Matthew 18 is very clear and confronting and going and, in my case you're leaving him when I tell it isn't all the time, I told free this last week.

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david clarke: When you when you're leaving your abuser when you leave him that's when you find out if he loves you he loves the Lord if you love your kids or he does.

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david clarke: When i'm in loses his woman the right guy will move heaven and earth to get her back.

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david clarke: he'll do whatever I want the Lord gives narcissism fixing their own programs for him.

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david clarke: But if it's the wrong guy he never will that will be your confirmation.

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Andy Miller III: interesting.

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Andy Miller III: wow it this narcissism and he brought it up several times, and this is when somebody is just focused their whole life is on them, everything is is is.

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Andy Miller III: Like thinking they're not asking questions and conversations or they're controlling things to benefit themselves, I mean when they do this type of thing.

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Andy Miller III: Do you think they like it comes because they've gotten something that they want in the past, is it like it's worked for them is that Why is a hard question it's not answerable but why are people narcissistic.

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david clarke: boy, is a good question I think most of the narcissist and i've dealt with them enough, I see him one time that I refer them to somebody else because I have no patience I work with the victim, but.

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david clarke: Yet they grew up in a home.

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david clarke: Where often there were there was abuse and even they were abused until the fight that to overcome that it becomes all about me it's me against the world so that core of narcissism.

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david clarke: The other possibility is old they were on a pedestal from day one, the only boy in the family or the only girl, they were just they were just.

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david clarke: You know their loved on and and it was just overkill you know the trophy mentality, and so I get everything I want so they're used to it, and this works well in American society it absolutely does.

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david clarke: wow politically, economically, a career, you know you can really get successful by being a narcissist we've seen that across the board in politics most politicians are, frankly, if a narcissist.

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Andy Miller III: Probably.

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david clarke: Am so that's developed that way now in our culture it's just feeding narcissism the last 1015 years, especially social media, I believe, plays a role in this.

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david clarke: Okay it's all about me what i'm doing the trip i'm taking look what i'm having for lunch people take pictures of their food, I don't care.

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david clarke: it's just one of those ad Christian folks well you know what.

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david clarke: it's all about so of course Satan pushes the identity.

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Andy Miller III: Are you on social media.

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david clarke: i'm only because, like have to be.

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david clarke: I and it's a business thing for me it's a it's a ministry thing up phil Davis my son in law, one of my son last do is creative he does all my digital stuff so he's he does the social media I don't frankly.

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Andy Miller III: yeah I gotcha.

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Andy Miller III: So one of the things that this is all restaurant, and this is why i've always appreciated about you he's like you have the the training as a psychologist that therapist but also you have this biblical training as well, and you bring that into your discussions, always in.

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Andy Miller III: Like, for instance, even in your book say every time in your books and I just haven't read them all, but i've read a couple, it seems like you find a place to present the Gospel in may not always be at the same place.

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Andy Miller III: So this rest on the fact that you have a theology of marriage and you like it, and with that theology there some people would disagree that there is a mechanism for divorce, even in scripture can you talk to me about that is there is there really a justification for divorce in scripture.

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david clarke: Well, there is absolutely there are exceptions now God has clear he doesn't want that to happen to please him he hates divorce, we see and molokai to he's right.

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david clarke: However, because he knows the hardness of heart he knows abusive men, and that was to in the Old Testament as well as the new there are exceptions.

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david clarke: Now i'm very careful with that, even if I have a woman sitting in front of me or man who has clear biblical reason, and I think there's three biblical reasons for divorce taught in scripture.

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david clarke: And I studied it very carefully, but two seminaries i'm careful about this, even if I have that I never recommend divorce not my business.

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david clarke: i'll say look.

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david clarke: God has, you have the book a reason i'm not recommending it as far as like go with separation, like in this book The enough is enough book Andy but i'll say gobble gobble guide you God will direct your path we've got ongoing unrepentant adultery that's number one it's a heavy.

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Andy Miller III: has been.

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david clarke: Against a marriage i'm not going to stop okay that's a biblical reasons so destructive.

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david clarke: we've got the abandonment my the unbelieving spouse that's clear and at first Corinthians seven what I also believe now.

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david clarke: And this is what careful study and thought Dr Wayne gruden who's one of my heroes up theologically.

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david clarke: Now, believes that there is a third biblical reason for divorce, and that is ongoing unrepentant never going to stop emotional abuse also found in first Corinthians 715.

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david clarke: The phrase in such circumstances, he believes applies not just to the abandonment issue, which is horrible and destructive but other issues, and we look at the Old Testament news a whole whole theology here that can be developed, and I believe it's true.

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Andy Miller III: um.

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david clarke: But again i'm not gonna i'm not going to play God, there are therapists to do that and even pastors by yeah I think you should get divorce that's never going to come into my mouth that's that's god's decision.

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david clarke: There is a sacred you're gonna have to, and most of these deer ladies, you know and.

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david clarke: you've seen work with them, they have this isn't the in the first month of the abuse they're thinking about leaving or divorce it gets 20 years it's 25 years it's.

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david clarke: 30 years.

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david clarke: i've seen these sweethearts and married 50 years two adorable and there's nothing left to them, they don't want a divorce.

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david clarke: wow so I just go so far as leader, we let's see what he does get ready to get strong enough get the finances get the kids ready to leave and let's see what it does.

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Andy Miller III: yeah that's helpful now let's just imagine right now that somebody is watching watching this listen to this and they think that this is me, could you just I can't say give an example of what will happen if they stay with this abuser.

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david clarke: yeah here's what's going to happen and i've told hundreds if not thousands of ladies this number one, you will be physically destroyed.

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david clarke: And the stress of living with an abuser breaks down the body and when the more sensitive their their systems and so people break you down.

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david clarke: The ladies to end up leaving in every case i've had they improved physically every single time.

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david clarke: So physical destruction happens, you are emotionally destroying your depersonalize you have no identity your self esteem and competence is shredded.

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david clarke: you're going to be depressed they're going to be anxious all kinds of emotional damage is done can avoid it going to happen.

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david clarke: spiritual damage as well, which is the most serious thing of all your relationship with God will be will be stressed, you will not be even on the level of you will not be an effective servant appears as much as you could be because of all you're going through.

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david clarke: Plus just questions about God and why, would you love us to happen all that stuff happens and for ladies, especially the fourth damage is the most important say look what your your kids will also be destroyed, they will never be the same if you stay.

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david clarke: The boys end up learning how to be abusers because dad's modeling that.

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david clarke: i'm not stopping it boom they're going to be abusers and they'll start abusing you to the girl who are they going to look for the date Mary boom and abuser and it's dirt balls are everywhere, so that that's going to happen, I will be on you, you don't know mom wants that.

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david clarke: Also, as I mentioned before the abuser turn he poisons the katie turns them against you.

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david clarke: They will lose respect for you, they will lose love for you, because the kid this is dad they they're not living the the marital nightmare.

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david clarke: And there's a different boundary here, so they think well dad and dad's convincing them it's going to end up being your fault, and so what happens is they side with the abuser and you're left alone.

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david clarke: Oh, my goodness, so that that's what happens there are no exceptions that that's exactly i've seen it so many times you ladies who.

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david clarke: i'll see them in a marriage that maybe 1012 years in and i'll say look you better get out, he was a book but here's the end they decide not to ICM 10 years later, Dr Clark, I should have listened my kids won't talk to me.

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david clarke: i'm still married to the sky and i'm broken down I have kidney disease have car probably sick will get out now so don't wait.

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Andy Miller III: don't wait yeah so what i'm thinking about to my audience like I, so I teach at Wesley biblical seminary we have 500 students here who are training to be trusted leaders for faithful churches and we have people who are an audience, who are serving as pastors right now.

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Andy Miller III: What are what are some things they could do, or what how about this, what are the mistakes we make is pastor said, probably because we probably mess this up, sometimes that that's one side, and then to kind of what's the positive side of what we can do.

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david clarke: Oh pastors can have a tremendous impact study after study shows, and this is the way it should be when people in a church setting are really struggling who do they call First they call him pastor he's a shepherd the spiritual guy and they shut.

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david clarke: Everybody I see in therapy, I have them sign a release if they were ensure your church, you know your pastor I haven't released sign for the pastor so I can contact it he's on the team is critically important.

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david clarke: So they can really make you come alongside of women, the women, I know who who have been supported by a pastor who's in front of the husband has helped her lead the home Oh, my goodness, it means the world to them.

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david clarke: Right those passions that don't, of course, it can it can turn them against the Church, which is not good, I say local do you have to find a new church.

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david clarke: But pastors well meaning people that don't do the work that I do they often make mistakes they'll tell the lady actually she's told her story of abuse and say well you know the Bible is fair, you have to submit, you have to submit to your husband.

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david clarke: hmm you kidding me you don't submit to abuse and sin.

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david clarke: they'll say well it's not abuse they'll redefine it because they don't want to really face it, they don't have experience Well he called he loses his temper so it's mineralized.

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david clarke: it's justified and so she's left thinking well gosh it's not abuse or or or she'll be told, which is often the case in church was a boys club, sometimes it may sometimes and well sweetheart that it was abuse going on here but it's your fault.

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Andy Miller III: Oh, my.

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david clarke: If you wouldn't trigger here, and he would love him more than change that's ridiculous and totally unbiblical but they're well meaning.

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david clarke: That, if the pastor thanks i've got this couple of the front of me.

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david clarke: He doesn't understand abuse anyway, but he thinks this guy this guy is not that a change, so I the one I have to work with is the lady, but the problem is.

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david clarke: Rather than, say, like, I would say, get away from him to take steps get strong get a voice leave him anything no it's a marital thing so i'm going to help her if she'll make changes, maybe he'll change.

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david clarke: Right, no.

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david clarke: He won't it's been five years 10 years 20 years that feeds the the whole process is just enabling you guys like this don't change.

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Andy Miller III: Right, this is, this is why it takes like to produce change, I mean it takes this.

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Andy Miller III: Dealing with reality with putting it in a position where we're able to say, this is the consequences of my actions, and therefore I want to change.

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Andy Miller III: Okay, I want to jump in here, make sure people know we're talking about your book enough is enough and it's published by Moody publishers and i'm so thankful for Moody.

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Andy Miller III: They reached out to me, and they offered I don't know if you know this, Dr Clark they offer their give me five books, they must think I really need know that.

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Andy Miller III: they're getting five bucks to get to our audience today, so if you you're listening to this, and maybe you're in this situation and, like you need this book for your own relationship.

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Andy Miller III: Well i'm guessing that most of my audience probably needs this because you need this as a resource so here's what you can do to win a copy this book, you can go to social media and share a link don't be narcissistic narcissistic when you do this by the way, okay that social media.

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david clarke: We want to see your lunch.

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Just.

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Andy Miller III: Just Dr clark's book.

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Andy Miller III: You share a link to this podcast us write a word about it, make sure, make sure I see it, I mean generally I do when people share from my author page.

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Andy Miller III: You can leave a comment on YouTube or you subscribe to my email list so you go to Andy Miller third calm as Andy Miller, I I calm and there you can sign up for my email list so anytime like when this is published to two weeks after that.

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Andy Miller III: When you sign up for my email list you'll be entered into the contest to win, so you can win Dr clark's book enough is enough anything you want to say about the book Clark before we get I want, I have a few more questions for you.

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david clarke: will only that as we discussed earlier it's a miracle that that that Moody has picked up this book, I have great respect, as you do it from mooney.

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david clarke: solid and this came out of like nowhere but it's it's a God thing, like everything is it's a way to really I think get the word out, and I will also say this movie publishers need to these two published several books by Andy as Miller, the third.

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Andy Miller III: Oh yeah.

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david clarke: And I believe that's going to happen.

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Andy Miller III: Okay well when when I finished my dissertation i'll be in touch with you, and you know you can give me a nice slide entree into.

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david clarke: These two I will do whatever I can but all the district, I know the dissertation data that's got to come first.

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david clarke: yeah.

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Andy Miller III: I have, I mean I have my past two books and then I have some other projects and they're there and i'm putting off to the side like stay focused stay focused.

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Andy Miller III: gotta get through the day I appreciate you saying that in look, one of the things like those you guys are interested, Dr Clark, you know, has a national names on national programs, have you seen on folks and fam books published by all kinds of evangelical.

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Andy Miller III: publishers, but at the same time, like for a while you're just published self publishing because you could control it better you're making more money from it, but you've decided to go with Moody in part here because it's getting the word out and they're really good at that.

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david clarke: Right, they are.

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david clarke: they're editing was was masterful the people I work with just world class, they have a platform that's very impressive and it's trusted.

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david clarke: Right, so this is a chance, where people should trust David Clarke, he Clark, but they're not sure what a shock, then they with Moody Moody would not publish this book no word of it unless they were fully behind it.

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david clarke: Right i'm thinking wow This is confirmation and, unlike a lot of books on abuse I don't waste time talking about.

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david clarke: Why the abuser is the way he is I mean who cares that's another rabbit hole understand and only so you can change and he'll i'm worried about the victim he'll get a boys protect your kids and get out.

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Andy Miller III: Right.

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david clarke: it's a very different specific focus.

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david clarke: Yes, however biblically we once you're out you do give the man, a chance to change you do, and that will confirm frankly will confirm, one way or the other, what we're dealing.

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Andy Miller III: Now, in your book you do talk about four things that people should do before they leave you know before, so I love I love how practical it is.

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Andy Miller III: And you crack me up your writing just cracks me up sometimes i'm sorry like hahaha but you've got one of those four steps you want people to take.

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Andy Miller III: Before before they leave.

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david clarke: Number one you have to get a team around you a team of warriors, this is not something you do alone, so if, in fact, you have a supportive pastor that's a goldmine sign him up.

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david clarke: If you don't have a pastor pastor simple you go to him when you talk and he doesn't get it okay you're not going to keep going to give you may still be your pastor and you might not leave the Church, yet, because you got kids and you're not ready.

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david clarke: Because this whole plan to secret plan is, you know and the user doesn't know.

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david clarke: You find another pastor hopefully at another church even that may support you.

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david clarke: You need one accountability partner of the same sex close friend, especially if you who's on the team who can keep a secret, who is supportive of you.

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david clarke: You tell the secret of the abuse to family and very close friends, mostly these don't say a word outside the home because they know it's embarrassing i'm trying to protect my husband I think it's my job, no it's not not with an abuser.

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david clarke: So these are people, you can trust they're not going to confront your husband.

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david clarke: that's not going to be the point not now that comes later after you blend which you've got that you also, if you can find a great Christian therapist who gets it like.

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david clarke: Well, nothing great but, like me, a therapist who gets it who understands male or female, that can be very helpful.

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david clarke: Obviously the guide you through the process and you'll tell the abuser look i'm getting therapy for myself, because I messed up he'll buy that because he thinks it's your fault, anyway, no worries that.

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david clarke: And then, of course, you I think a solid family law attorneys very important you want to do this legally protect yourself financially, so you have that person on the team as well.

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Andy Miller III: And one of the things that I ran to even last time I had you on the podcast I had people reach out to me who.

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Andy Miller III: they're like my spouse wants out that was saying, the book they're like look i'm in this situation, and they were hesitant about pulling the trigger to even pay to have a conversation with a with a therapist or pay to see a lawyer.

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Andy Miller III: I mean, it seems like it just might see like so much money and it, it is, do you know to certain people, particularly people who.

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Andy Miller III: You know if they're not the ones who control the funds in their family to speak to that issue a little, how do you handle that if you can't if you can't afford it.

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david clarke: Or, this is what the body of Christ is for a couple ideas here part of my strategy Andy is before you leave, of course, is develop in your financial life.

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david clarke: Okay yeah chances are you don't have any money you're a stay at home mom or whatever money you do make.

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david clarke: You money make more than your abuser he tasted he controls so there's a moves, you can make there because you're his wife, that you can kind of get more access and get more money.

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david clarke: I recommend starting a secret account that got us your name on it and you start that's your that's your war chest you start putting money in their education train this might take months but you're getting yourself together financially.

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david clarke: Okay, and that's a family and friends of what we have some dear friends, we have helped before and they've helped us.

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Andy Miller III: Okay.

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david clarke: Because the certain points in life, you don't have anybody we had four kids and they were all in college talk about no money.

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david clarke: I was making a lot of money, but like I couldn't show.

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david clarke: So some friends helped us so yeah you go to a friend and even one time, like like me a one a one time session can make a difference in a lot of money, but to give you a plan of action and get you going in the right direction.

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david clarke: And if you can find a therapist who can help you then that's yeah your dad pay if any one of my precious daughters came to me and needed money I would give them the shirt off my back, of course I would so family, friends.

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david clarke: And in terms of the legal situation in most communities there, the government will have an option county government, especially will have any State law, they will have some service for the abused wife, that you can avail yourself up.

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david clarke: These might even be liberal people who cares if they're helping you use i'm living with their abuser.

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david clarke: They can provide some legal legal aid society there's people that can help you in that way, so yeah you, it may take a while to get the money to do it, but just getting on start somewhere.

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Andy Miller III: yeah sure that's really helpful, you know what do you do now, like so let's say they've taken those steps they have their team, they have their money they have their lawyer in place now now they're out there they're out underneath the abuser what do they do, then at.

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david clarke: That point and you in a lot goes into leaving, of course, but the first month of leaving you have very little contact.

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david clarke: With the abuser the fact it's only through intermediaries you're gonna have one solid support person could be your dad could be could be a close friend so i'm going to be a pastor.

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david clarke: who's communicating because, as you leave legally, if you have kids that are still minors, you will he has the right to see that we don't hold the kids back from me.

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david clarke: But all that's orchestrated outside of your direct contact because you're you're done.

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david clarke: So a month of just kind of getting settled in getting your place is a huge adjustment nature, the kids are okay there's somebody else you you work out the details of when you can see the kids and it's outside of your presence, he hasn't lost you.

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david clarke: wow and, frankly, in that month that first month of not much cuz you're going to other folks are dealing with him for you, that you're going to find out what it's like as the furious as you blaming you, is he truly broken as he's sitting he's willing to do anything we'll find out.

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Andy Miller III: Okay.

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david clarke: So, after the month that's all we start doing biblically Matthew 1815 to 17 you've already.

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david clarke: you've already of course you've left now, but now we start that process by visitors a listing of all here's a list of things, if you want me back because i'm done with you because of the.

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david clarke: If you only about here, here are seven or eight things you're going to need to do over the next 567 months if you even want a chance to have you back no I say, ladies that will give any guarantees no guarantees might not I might.

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david clarke: Leave you and never, never come back, but if you want me back do these things Okay, and then and then that's that's that's the way the first Matthew 18 if he doesn't respond to that well ignores us as well.

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david clarke: I can't believe you're doing this to me i'm not doing any of these it's all your fault Okay, then we go to the one or two witnesses.

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david clarke: Your accountability partner can be the pastor to you send you send them to him and they click in front of him on his sin, you need to do the list he rejects them you take it to the Church.

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david clarke: pastor may already be involved with the Church, they can they can they can do church discipline, they can they can not make it make leaders aware what's happening, and they can come against him.

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david clarke: we're actually trying to save the abusers own life, he doesn't get it now he resists that then that's when the last stage of course in Matthew 1815 to 17 verse 17 as you back off.

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david clarke: You already separated you just stay seven I really have not much to do with it.

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david clarke: And then I say God God will guide to what should I get i've been asked this question many times, should I divorce it I say I can't answer that question.

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david clarke: Only God can answer that you're out you're living your life and you're kind of an observation when there's usually a period of time that God will have you wait.

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david clarke: Give me again given an abuser one more chance and then Okay, then you, you know he'll guide you if you if you can file.

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david clarke: yeah you know the local reason I just not gonna recommend it God has too much.

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Andy Miller III: Right right there has to be that confirmation, you know I am I always talk to you, we became friends in Tampa and.

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Andy Miller III: While we were there abby and I actually came and saw you for three sessions, and then you say get out of my office, I only deal with messed up people and.

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Andy Miller III: But but part of it was working through even what does it mean for for me to leave savage army officer ship that was kind of what i'm I know i'm kind of sharing personally here, but I see it.

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Andy Miller III: And you're like well sounds like there's a reason leave sounds like a reasons day but you're gonna have to hear from God on this and we're both going to have to hear, and that was really that was helpful, please him, then I got to a place where God was speaking, and then I had to decide.

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Andy Miller III: Okay, am I going to listen.

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Andy Miller III: And, and that was that was the maybe the harder point was like I can I can develop a rationale to ignore god's voice here, but I got to a place where I realized.

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Andy Miller III: That that would be sin and and i'm thinking, the same thing, maybe disobedience, even if they get to a place for you, you feel in in you pray and you sent you take the steps to Dr Clark gives you you.

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Andy Miller III: get to play for you say you know what Lord, this is what you're asking me to do I wish this wouldn't have been the case, but, given my circumstances you're asking me to take this it does that sound right and my offer that Dr Clark.

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david clarke: Later exactly right that's exactly how God works he's so faithful to his he loves us as a father or father to love his children the Bible says so yeah if you if you truly bring a matter before him.

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david clarke: He will answer it and he will open the door and when, God opens that door release gets clear Okay, then you have to act on it.

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david clarke: He will not condemn you to hell, he will not drop you if you choose not to leave an abuse or he won't do that.

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david clarke: But what he wants you to do i'm convinced biblically is to leave you have every right to leave and he wanted to leave God will for sure when he opens that door yeah take it okay.

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Andy Miller III: yeah this, this is also Internet i'd love to this book is going to be really helpful to people and it's the type of help that we need like when you really get in trouble.

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Andy Miller III: Now, you also have some other great things to say, like now, could you speak to that maybe there's a couple who listen to this podcast and they're they're hearing it and.

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Andy Miller III: Things are going well, but they just need a tune up in their marriage like they're not a place where they have an abusive situation, what are some of those your top few tips for improving your marriage in general.

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david clarke: Well it's a great question yeah I mean if you're not God praise God that you're not in this situation Oh, my goodness.

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david clarke: But you might and you might know someone who were so it's still a resource, but but i've got i've got a book for everything they should know in nds fill it with her, I met her classroom it or crowbars would be a great book for communication, improving it, honey, we need to talk.

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Andy Miller III: Okay, say that again that you know you you you're very familiar with that.

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Andy Miller III: Men are.

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david clarke: glad we did our clans.

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Andy Miller III: Men are need crowbars K again what what's that title.

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david clarke: The title is men are clams.

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david clarke: Okay, women or crowbars yeah I talk fast.

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david clarke: This is the guy that good guy but he won't open it up have trouble talking the ladies talking and trying to get into.

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david clarke: there's a whole strategy in that book a number of them to really help a guy open up and now the lady could be the plan to it could go the other way but opening up.

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david clarke: there's a book, I wrote called a marriage after god's own heart in fact it's the it's the best selling of all my books, it was written years ago 2000 I think.

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david clarke: Maybe, but after 2000 2003 or four we're putting God at the Center of your marriage and I mean I know this and i've written a recent devotional.

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david clarke: How to become soulmates.

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david clarke: Oh, and I think it's it's very personal.

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david clarke: And it's I think it's a very simple approach to this 52 you know different devotional just kind of going through talking sharing that people are really enjoying that it's really bonding them in a spiritual way.

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david clarke: Right he's got a book for you, you if you where can they get that.

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Andy Miller III: Where can they find this David Clarke COM is that right, it is.

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david clarke: Yes, it is David E courses to eat.

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david clarke: That goes without saying, but David Clarke PhD.

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david clarke: On the simple baby Clark PhD calm everything's there.

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Andy Miller III: gotcha that's great Now I want to get your your.

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Andy Miller III: your thoughts on something that's come through a new city now we're recording this in December, I think this is going to come out in January.

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Andy Miller III: When your book comes out, but there is a case I don't know if case or a ruling or something I heard on the news this morning out Canada, making a move to have a ban against comfort conversion therapy as relates to human sexuality.

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Andy Miller III: And you know I just I, I have some thoughts on this, but i'm curious like as a therapist I know this might not be the area you work in but how does that strike you when you see.

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Andy Miller III: laws like this are people talking about this type of issue, I mean it seems like it's moving against the general kind of Christian view that people can change in some degree i'm not i'm not saying that orientations change or anything like that, but i'm just curious your thoughts there.

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david clarke: boy I you know it makes me angry number one it's despicable that level of state control, I don't like I don't care what the area is, but this is a personal choice now you're telling me.

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david clarke: If I if i'm a man, and I have homosexual tendencies or i'm in the gay lifestyle and I have decided, with god's guidance to get out of it and I need help to do that I can't do that.

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david clarke: Because the therapist stuff as a therapist and telling me I can't do that kind of work unbelievable its way out of line.

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david clarke: And i've had cases I referred to a guy down and break to that does this work is a godly man, Dr deal worth bringing in Florida he's what he does, and he has made a tremendous difference in this area of sexuality, especially for men.

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david clarke: wow we're not here in the States, but they're going to already minors in many states, you cannot do conversion therapy.

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Andy Miller III: yeah.

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david clarke: Because they're smart enough to know we don't want that we can control miners I think and their parents and and if you if you can catch them in the teen years you have much better chance for the conversion.

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Andy Miller III: Right well.

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david clarke: If they if they get to 18 okay it's harder still doable but we're going to get that the same place here when I first came, it was it was a psychologist in my training Andy in the.

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david clarke: diagnostic and statistical manual, which is our manual of diagnoses homosexuality was in that book as a mental disorder.

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david clarke: By frankly it is.

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david clarke: Like all the rest.

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david clarke: No judging just way, it is well they took it out, they took it out and it's never going back in I mean for heaven's sake now you know.

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david clarke: We were to reach out to the to the gay people love on them never judge them try and lead them to Jesus, but if they want to change it should be allowed to change.

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Andy Miller III: Right people shouldn't be i'll have veal enter into a relationship with a counselor.

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Andy Miller III: To produce the behavior they want like you're talking to people whose marriage it like an abusive situation, they should be able to enter into that relationship with you as a counselor to make a decision, I want to change, I want to change the situation.

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Andy Miller III: They shouldn't get into your office as well, I feel, like, I think that that's what's happening here.

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david clarke: Can I know, there was a free country i'm not anymore and we're seeing similar things in the states with a massive level of control, my goodness, let people decide really telling me I can't work with the abusive wife and help her leave an abuser.

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Andy Miller III: mm hmm.

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david clarke: Well, you know what we're going to reach a point where, where I want to do that, whatever the state says i'm going to do that anyway there's a higher law.

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david clarke: And we're going to have to work and I get to where we're going to have to follow that but what the state says i'm not complying God is teaching me i'm gonna have to do this.

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Andy Miller III: wow.

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david clarke: I think that day is coming.

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Andy Miller III: wow there and the idea of therapies, there are a lot of different therapeutic approaches that you can take like you could take within abuser and I imagine like your friends in the field who work in this area of human sexuality.

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Andy Miller III: They might have like a different answer that they might use like a different type of therapy.

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Andy Miller III: And if if they use a particular approach that's one thing it's just funny to me where does the government.

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Andy Miller III: get into or or the church and there are even some you know i'm a member of the Salvation Army there even salvation army's.

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Andy Miller III: That have not in the United States, but in other other parts of the world i've said, we are against conversion therapy and like as crazy for Salvation Army said we're like the Salvation Army, but nevertheless.

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david clarke: it's crazy that's letting society dictate and override scripture God has cleared he's thrown all said homosexuality, being one of the sense, it is a sin, and he doesn't want you to be in that lifestyle, but you can't say that anymore in this world your people come after you.

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david clarke: Well i'm sorry.

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david clarke: it's just as much of sin as as heterosexual sin.

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david clarke: of adultery it's okay it's the same thing.

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david clarke: right but they're the society's car does an exception.

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Andy Miller III: Right.

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Andy Miller III: Are there any other therapies you're not allowed to use.

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Andy Miller III: Like there's a government stepped into any of your therapeutic approaches.

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david clarke: No, I don't listen to the government, anyway, but they really haven't no I haven't no problem there I like under the radar i'm a licensed psychologist in Florida.

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david clarke: yeah and and the FPA the for the psychological association if there's a good job I don't believe a number of their liberal views I don't.

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david clarke: But you know I they haven't bothered me I do, what I want to do, you asked my sanity my blog I do, what I want to do.

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david clarke: It because biblical I hey i'm gonna do it.

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Andy Miller III: yeah you just brought up sandy the blonde divvied out.

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Andy Miller III: We are your fans, I was your fan before I met you, and so I heard you either other radio shows, and you talk about your wife color the blonde you wanted to marry a blonde from California.

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Andy Miller III: And so, then I came to see you, and then I met, I met the percent the desk she had blond hair I did have the thought, and you, and then you said that's my wife i'm like the blonde.

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david clarke: that's that's what people do, and she is a wonderful person Oh, my goodness, as is your dear abby wonderful women of God and they put up with us.

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Andy Miller III: yeah so so what's next for you, what are you working on next what type of project, do you have coming down the Pike are you going to keep keep producing books.

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david clarke: I am i'm still doing the self publish it they've got a couple things in the hopper and I do as i'm doing a how to counsel video series we just we just filmed it and now phil Davis is going to kind of be putting it together, this is for pastors mostly for non professional counselors.

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david clarke: i'll just say basic principle after 35 years alone that out in the new year i'll be after.

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david clarke: Probably after February and i'm working right now on a pre step book to the enough is enough book.

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Andy Miller III: Okay okay.

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david clarke: And these ladies they'll say boy I get it it's biblical I need to leave he's abusive, but I just i'm not ready i'm not I don't have the emotional strength i'm not strong enough, though I don't know that Okay, so this book is going to help them.

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david clarke: i'm calling the 20 lies the working title is of the 20 lies that keep you, with your abuser.

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david clarke: And that fears under those lines so we're going to get a little deeper and help these ladies.

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david clarke: figure out the codependent thing and the Christian codependency and really get stronger, so that they can use the enough is enough book and get out so.

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Andy Miller III: gotcha.

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david clarke: Those are those are what's in the hopper yeah.

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Andy Miller III: I love it so one of the things that happened is my last time I had my podcast is called captain's corner i'm no longer a captain.

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Andy Miller III: But nevertheless, I have this more to the story podcasts and one of the things I ask people is.

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Andy Miller III: Is there more to the story of David eat Clark PhD what is something there's something that you like to do that, you don't often talk about like is there a hobby you have tell us a little bit more more there's more to the story of David Clarke.

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david clarke: Well, I like that I, I am a guy, and this may surprise, people are i'm I love I love to read i'm a big reader biographies especially but my favorite thing.

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david clarke: Is if if but as an entertainment person movie star or a TV person that i've always admired, if I can read a biography of that person or an autobiography I love it I love the creative process, I read one by Neil Simon who, I think, is gone now just that brilliant comedy writer.

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david clarke: And play right and it was fascinating I love all the creative process and the writing and the working with other people I just it just it seems superficial i'm sorry but I love it.

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david clarke: So it's just the intensity.

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Andy Miller III: You in the blind have a Friday night three What do you do.

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Andy Miller III: Oh man read Neil Simon or What do you do.

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david clarke: No, no, hopefully not that wouldn't be right Oh, I read out loud the Neil Simon book to the blog I don't do that.

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david clarke: Now we all do it we love to go out to eat that's one of our things that we were great conversational she's funny and she's quirky and she knows me so we talked about the kids in our life and the future.

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david clarke: And she, of course, she only works right within so she's got all kinds of input, so we would go to my college was Delhi, which we love to go to outback steakhouse is one of our favorites.

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david clarke: Okay yeah I veronese Jay counted my favorite place in the world, oh, my goodness.

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david clarke: There it's woodsy and not too expensive, and we can talk and spend a couple of hours that's our thing.

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Andy Miller III: awesome well I love I love you Dr Clark here just to close us out if you could say a short prayer for somebody who's listening to this and they're in that enough is enough situation like they need to make that move, could you just pray for them right now.

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david clarke: yeah good idea your father, we are asking this podcast would make a difference in the lives of ladies even men who are living with an abusive spouse bottom of their abusive nurse that they would realize they are.

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david clarke: And it's step by step, Father if they get the book or not or hope they do it, they would they would be able to get strong enough in you.

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david clarke: and build this new life and father eventually be able to leave this abusive person we are trusting you with that outcome, probably what the best for these people.

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david clarke: To understand, this is the way to go to protect themselves, their kids and even give the abuser himself or herself a chance to change father, would you would you answer these prayers for us in Christ amen.

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Andy Miller III: amen Dr Clark thanks for coming on the morning story podcast and thank you all for joining us today.

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My pleasure.