Evangelical Egalitarians? Dr. Matt O'Reilly

Is an evangelical egalitarian an oxymoron? As Wesleyans engage in evangelical circles, tensions often arise around the role of women in the church and the home. Certainly, complementary distinctions between men and women exist and are worthy of celebration. At the same time, most in the Wesleyan tradition affirm that women should be encouraged to preach. Dr. Matt O’Reilly and I talk about the challenge of engaging the larger evangelical community regarding women in ministry. Check out this podcast here:

YouTube - https://youtu.be/AukCjYd5750

Audio - https://andymilleriii.com/media/podcast

Apple - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-to-the-story-with-dr-andy-miller/id1569988895?uo=4

Here’s a link to an article Dr. O’Reilly has written on this subject. https://www.theologyproject.online/post/complementarian-rhetoric-calmy-considered-a-response-to-denny-burk-and-owen-strachan

Also here are two videos on the exegetical case for women in ministry that deal with common objections: https://youtu.be/HNB00Sfv3gw https://youtu.be/YHJzYyc3XKg

Five Steps to Deeper Teaching and Preaching- Five Steps to Deeper Preaching and Teaching - I’m excited to share some news with you. Recently, I updated that PDF document and added a 45-minute teaching video with slides, explaining this tool. It's like a mini-course. If you sign up for my list, I will send this free resource to you. Sign up here - Five Steps to Deeper Teaching and Preaching.

Today’s episode is brought to you by two sponsors:

Bill Roberts is a financial advisor, who has been serving the retirement planning and investment needs of individuals, families, non-profits, and churches for 25 years. He is a Certified Financial Planner and accredited investment fiduciary. Bill specializes in working with Salvation Army employees and officers by helping them realize their financial goals.

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Transcript:

Welcome to the more to the story podcast I am glad that you have come along today we have a great show in store for you and I have my friend, Dr matt o'reilly.

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Andy Miller III: Whose an adjunct Professor here at Wesley biblical seminary he helped lead our doctor of ministry program and the research portion there and.

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Andy Miller III: Probably, most importantly, he serves as a pastor of hope whole united Methodist church in Alabama and the Montgomery area I said, most importantly, man i'm sure there's some other things are more important to you like your family.

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Matt O'Reilly: family is is is high on the list.

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Matt O'Reilly: Absolutely, the highest place on the list.

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Andy Miller III: So I didn't mean this make your church, the most important thing to you, but maybe I was saying, your church and your commitment to your calling there, maybe is more important than even web so we'll take that as well.

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Matt O'Reilly: Well, I try to I try to find a way to hold all of the various hats that I wear together in balance, as well as much as I can so.

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Matt O'Reilly: But yeah they're all they're they're important aspects of the way I understand my location as a pastor theologian.

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Andy Miller III: yeah yeah so.

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Andy Miller III: let's talk about that for a second and thanks so much matt for coming on.

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Andy Miller III: I think you all, are going to enjoy this podcast today where we're going to talk about.

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Andy Miller III: you've met my have drawn you in by our title but that's important piece to matt like even how you respond to this is that you see your vocation as pastor theologian, a lot of people say think there might be two separate things there, so what is a pastor theologian, what is this discipline.

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Matt O'Reilly: Sure sure so so.

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Matt O'Reilly: i'm a part of a group of pastors called the Center for pastor theologians which listeners may be interested in taking a look at that pastor theologians calm, I believe, is the address you can Google.

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Matt O'Reilly: cpt are Center for pastor theologians and it's a group of pastors who have done usually advanced degrees of some sort or another, so so there's some some.

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Matt O'Reilly: Formal theological.

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Training.

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Matt O'Reilly: But instead of seeking the primary expression of that training in an academic setting primarily, we are committed to using our training and.

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Matt O'Reilly: gifts and the skills we've been been given through our training in the context of the local church and the idea is every every pastor functions as a theologian.

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Matt O'Reilly: In many ways.

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Andy Miller III: Right right.

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Matt O'Reilly: But not every pastor is necessarily a professional theologian, in the sense of academics writing books and things like that, and so so.

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Matt O'Reilly: We we Center for pastor theologians have some concerns about what seems to be.

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Matt O'Reilly: A pretty strong division between the Church in the Academy.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right pastors don't think of themselves as theologians even though it's the pastor's job, let me, I should say pastors in general don't think of themselves as theologians.

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Matt O'Reilly: By the pastor's job to speak about God to the people of God, on a weekly.

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Matt O'Reilly: or even more frequent basis.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right and a lot of times the Laity members of the congregation don't think of their pastors and theologians I was with a group of Lady not long ago, and ask them.

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Matt O'Reilly: Whether they thought of their pastors whether they knew any theologians or whether they thought or their pastors is a theologian.

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Matt O'Reilly: And they indicated that I was the first one, there was there were you know one or two others who may be kind of fit the mold a bit, but as far as like like formally trained professional theologian writing things they hadn't had a theologian for pastor before.

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Matt O'Reilly: And I think that that we've sort of.

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Matt O'Reilly: instantiated that really strong distinction and that it's not helpful.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right so, so I would want to say we have academic click theologians who you know who work in seminary settings or other academic settings to do crucial work, who have the time and the resources to do a lot of research that a pastor theologian is not going to do or not going to be.

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Right.

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Matt O'Reilly: But on the other hand, in a complimentary fashion, I don't want I don't want us to see these two roles in any way as as antagonistic towards one.

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Andy Miller III: Right, no.

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Matt O'Reilly: one's role, but the pastor theologian is or ecclesial theologians how we might say it we've got academic theologians.

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Matt O'Reilly: or theologians who work in an academic concept text and ecclesial theologians who are theologians who were primarily primarily in an ecclesial or church context and i'm not going to be doing the sort of.

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Matt O'Reilly: The same sort of research that many academic theologians will do with you know significant time in libraries are looking at primary sources and different kinds of things like that the.

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Matt O'Reilly: The pastor theologian of the ecclesial theologian, a lot of times is is not simply translating.

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Matt O'Reilly: theology, and the local church, but is offering theological shepherding.

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Matt O'Reilly: At a serious level for the larger church local church and the larger church so yeah one of the ways we talked about this, and this.

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Matt O'Reilly: has shaped a lot of our doctrine ministry research at Wesley seminary is we might think of this in terms of theological appropriation for example.

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Matt O'Reilly: So, so what are some of the issues that that are on the front burner for the Church, so to speak, what are really.

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Matt O'Reilly: issues where the church needs theological shepherding where we need theologians to think through.

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Matt O'Reilly: Like today we're going to be thinking about the relationship between men and women and and and and how that relates to roles in ministry right that's a front burner issue it's very much on people's minds.

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Matt O'Reilly: And what does it look like for academic theologians to help us with that, but also what does it look like for people who work in ministry context every day.

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Matt O'Reilly: To help us think through that at a serious level and offer some theological shepherding and and I think that the context is going to maybe give us a slightly different take on that and just being in in the ministry setting is going to kind of drive the way we come at that.

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Andy Miller III: And so I.

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Matt O'Reilly: We need to see pastors as theologians even if they're not writing theologians they're still preaching theologians who are leading the people of God to think theologically.

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Matt O'Reilly: yeah you're doing that, whether you realize it or not.

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Matt O'Reilly: I think, to do it well, you probably need to recognize it.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right and strive to speak welcome.

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Andy Miller III: This is interesting, and this is the tasks that people enter into and the entrance a ministry i've been found very helpful, particularly in 15 years of Ministry.

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Andy Miller III: Kevin man hoosiers description of the public theologian like the pastor's task in the Community, I imagine you in hope hall are like engaging your Community like I drove and visit your church, a few weeks ago.

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Andy Miller III: there's a you know gigantic plant like not far away, well, you have something to say very good for people who work in that plant, the way this society is structured there.

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Andy Miller III: Being a public theologian that was helpful for me as a savage army officer who.

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Andy Miller III: You know I had pastoral responsibilities for a congregation and ecclesial context, but often much of my work was with city council members board members fun in a fundraising capacity.

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Andy Miller III: Standing poor planning and zoning Commission these type of things, so I think these titles are helpful, I appreciate what you've done.

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Andy Miller III: To help put some bones that, and you have your own kind of way of expressing this through your own online platform and people can find you, is it the theology project is a.com.

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Matt O'Reilly: Oh you're on the project dot online.

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Andy Miller III: Oh yeah okay gotcha.

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Matt O'Reilly: yeah.

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Matt O'Reilly: You can find videos.

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Matt O'Reilly: i'm sorry matt o'reilly dot net i'll get you to the same place as well.

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Matt O'Reilly: Okay.

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Andy Miller III: that's great and that's kind of what brings us here today is a you had a response to something that's been an itch.

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Andy Miller III: That, I think a lot of people in my audience have had actually people have reached out to me with the very, very type of questions that you are answering or the tension point that exists within.

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Andy Miller III: Broad evangelicalism so that's what I want let's get into that here one of those challenges is is that we often find resonance.

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Andy Miller III: In the evangelical world with people who come from a different perspective of us when it comes to what kind of wesleyan or reformed Calvinist traditions.

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Andy Miller III: And that leads to some other other kind of distinctions are made wow we might affirm the way that some folks in reformed traditions might speak of the authority of scripture may human sexuality in general.

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Andy Miller III: The necessity of conversion all types of things like that the thing that often comes up with some of these folks like, for instance Danny Burke oh and strand Albert Molar people who either have a lot of appreciation for and some some respects in some varying degrees between them.

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Andy Miller III: Women in ministry comes up and in Wesley biblical seminary affirms the role of women preachers and, as does, like most of the nominations that we serve.

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Andy Miller III: So you respond to this and I imagine there's a little bit of tension and even just doing that in the first place so tell us about your what generated this response to these folks.

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Matt O'Reilly: yeah so so basically the way that this came along, his own stran on Twitter tends to like to be dory.

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Matt O'Reilly: Yes, and and what's interesting, is it will go and say things, but then he won't engage the responses.

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Matt O'Reilly: And he frequently blocks, those who attempt to engage substantively with him which he did with me.

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Matt O'Reilly: And so, so.

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Matt O'Reilly: there's an element where it's a bit frustrating.

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Andy Miller III: yeah can.

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Matt O'Reilly: You make these kind of wild claims and then trained.

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Matt O'Reilly: Credible theologians attempt to engage and instead of actually engaging the arguments you just block them.

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Matt O'Reilly: All things a very unhealthy.

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Matt O'Reilly: and very pet store Lee irresponsible.

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Matt O'Reilly: hmm wow.

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Matt O'Reilly: In theory, I just it seems to me seems to be embarrassing as far as the Christian faith goes.

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Andy Miller III: Right.

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Matt O'Reilly: Like I want I want our students.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right, be able to engage seriously and at a robust level with charity and force.

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Matt O'Reilly: hmm I don't want them to just just cancel people they disagree with them.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right like so so it was a little bit you know i've seen that track record and then this comment came along, and I forget exactly how it went, but basically.

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Matt O'Reilly: One of the complimentary aneurysm and egalitarianism or evangelical egalitarianism.

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Matt O'Reilly: or these kind of different different different perspectives on women in ministry and that it flares up online and in social media every so often.

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Matt O'Reilly: And it's had some particularly intense flare ups here lately, particularly in relation to what's called first order doctrines and second order doctrines.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right so.

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Matt O'Reilly: First order doctrine would be something like the Trinity the resurrection of Jesus.

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Andy Miller III: Have nothing yeah.

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Matt O'Reilly: So, so the things that make you a Christian or not.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right right if you don't believe in the Trinity you you're not a part of the Orthodox Christian faith.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right that's tier one second order or tier two doctrines are the sorts of things where like honest Christians disagree.

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Matt O'Reilly: One of those is the role of women in ministry, so if Angelica legality reasons, like us, would affirm fundamental complementarity between men and women, that we would say that gender does not prohibit ministry offices or four roles.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right, so a compliment darien would say there's complementarity between men and women, so we agree with the on that.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right, they also say that scripture forbids women from holding pastoral offices.

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Matt O'Reilly: In teaching offices and so that's where the conflict is so strange I was reading came along and said something like i'm working from memory here is i'll paraphrase something like.

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Matt O'Reilly: You know, even though women in ministry is a second second order doctrine.

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Matt O'Reilly: It that we can't use that as an excuse for going soft on these sorts of things and.

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Matt O'Reilly: And those who, this was the part that really got me those who affirm women in ministry and teaching rules egalitarianism or denying the authority.

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Andy Miller III: They he said flatly denies biblical teaching.

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Andy Miller III: yeah you and I.

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Andy Miller III: People who work, we are a seminary we an order to work a summary, we form an errand see according to Chicago statement.

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Andy Miller III: And like pretty committed people around us most of the time we're called the fundamentalist right and i'm.

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Andy Miller III: But yet we're being called this because we, we are this type of complementary roles, nevertheless, he, like a firm, the role of women taking pastoral office we're ones who flat lead and I biblical teaching.

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Matt O'Reilly: So that that language.

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Matt O'Reilly: send me all for sparked me, so to speak.

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Matt O'Reilly: When you know the notion that a position I hold is said to flatly deny biblical teaching, you know i've said from the pulpit so many times, if I didn't believe that scripture was true and authoritative I would get a different job.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right I wouldn't get up at five o'clock on Sunday mornings.

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Andy Miller III: yeah.

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Matt O'Reilly: To go and teach the Bible if I didn't think it was both true and authoritative.

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Matt O'Reilly: Yes, and so so strange comment is just outlandish it's misleading.

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Matt O'Reilly: And, and it is slanderous right.

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Matt O'Reilly: it's it's it's a false claim in print and so, so I think we need to.

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Matt O'Reilly: Like there needs to be some accountability for that, and so I decided to write.

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Matt O'Reilly: to write a more kind of response, and then there were some other things didn't work and written some some some more substantive and more precise.

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Matt O'Reilly: Precise articles about this recently, but even with his precision and nuance far more than you get in a tweet it still basically amounted to if you don't hold my view you don't believe the Bible.

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Andy Miller III: Right right.

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Andy Miller III: yeah so we would affirm like you could there are there are matters where you can say that but let's talk about, then how we moved to interpretation, I mean that's part of like the next task I don't want to jump ahead of you.

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Matt O'Reilly: where you want to go somewhere else first well I just kind of want make sure we're moving along in an agreed pace.

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Matt O'Reilly: So I think.

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Matt O'Reilly: I think the crucial distinction, then, is, we need to make a distinction between authority and interpretation.

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Matt O'Reilly: So.

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Matt O'Reilly: yeah bird stran and some of the folks that they quote like league Duncan.

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Matt O'Reilly: who got a great deal in.

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Matt O'Reilly: Ways mark never i've had the chance to meet briefly and appreciate a lot of his work i've learned a great deal from him about.

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Andy Miller III: me to.

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churches.

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Matt O'Reilly: evangelism I uses evangelism texting evangelism classes.

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Matt O'Reilly: But on on this item, a lot of these guys kind of draw a pretty hard line in the sand and say something like.

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Matt O'Reilly: If you don't agree with the complimentary and approach you're rejecting the authority of scripture and so.

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Matt O'Reilly: The problem is, there is a category mistake right, we have two categories in play one is the objective truth of scripture and the other is yours yours and my subjective interpretation of scripture.

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Andy Miller III: Right right.

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Matt O'Reilly: So scripture is true objectively, regardless of what I think of it.

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Andy Miller III: Right.

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Matt O'Reilly: I could think I could reject it all together, I can affirm it all together, I could pick and choose which bits I like in which bits I don't my posture towards scripture does not change its objective trustworthiness.

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Matt O'Reilly: yeah so like it's That is something scripture is objectively true because it is given to us by God, whose character is objectively true right if we never existed scripture would still be true.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right my interpretation of scripture is subjective, that is to say it is.

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Matt O'Reilly: It is derived from my experience my reading of scripture my understanding of the tradition, my my my best attempts to read these texts in their original context I work, you know I mean.

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Matt O'Reilly: Take your New Testament scholar yeah.

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Matt O'Reilly: yeah i've taken an advanced degree in New Testament to learn to because I take the take seriously and want to.

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Matt O'Reilly: be able to interpret it well, so so but but, but my training as part of what I bring to the table to interpret my ecclesial background is part of what I bring to the table to interpret my own experiences.

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Matt O'Reilly: are part of what I bring to the table to interpret and that's true for function and the complimentary inside as well, they don't have some secret code object of interpretation, but no one else has.

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Matt O'Reilly: So Burke Danny Burke own stran.

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Matt O'Reilly: Their training is part of their subjective interpretation their ecclesial background, as part of their subjective interpretation and, and this is just part of the deal we can't do anything about it.

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Matt O'Reilly: So, so what we have to do is do the best we can, with our interpretations, but it's a false move to go and say my interpretation is the authoritative interpretation.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right, unless you have an ecclesial body or tradition, they can make that claim, you know, so the Roman Catholic Church.

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Matt O'Reilly: will give the give constituents of the Catholic Church, the authoritative interpretation, the bishops are the living voice of the Church, they can give.

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Matt O'Reilly: Roman Catholics an authoritative interpretation same is true in Eastern Orthodox Church in the United Methodist Church, which i'm apart, our discipline gives us authoritative interpretations, to some degree.

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Matt O'Reilly: I mean not the same degree is.

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Matt O'Reilly: Roman Catholic magisterium but each denomination each ecclesial body has articles of faith or some sort of statement of faith that that interprets certain scriptures.

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Matt O'Reilly: In specific ways and so those are authoritative for the tradition in which you fall but united Methodist interpretations, you know ecclesial interpretations are not authoritative for the Salvation Army or the southern backing.

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Andy Miller III: Right sure.

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Matt O'Reilly: So we have to think of these things in in in relation you're in you can only get an authoritative interpretation in an ecclesial tradition, where the Members agree to submit themselves to the to the to the ecclesial body that defines the authoritative interpretation.

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Andy Miller III: For an individual.

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Matt O'Reilly: going to.

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Andy Miller III: attack, so this is really good and I imagine, some people are going there already in their mind, so I just want to have the relieve them or think through this as it relates to human sexuality.

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Andy Miller III: So, like this is the big concern okay well that's just your interpretation.

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Andy Miller III: But I think what i've said in correct me if i'm correct me if you have a different way of nuance, and this is a.

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Andy Miller III: say that, like those authoritative communities authoritative bodies have a firm throughout centuries of the Christian church.

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Andy Miller III: The same view of human sexuality as particularly as it relates to what sexual sin is at this and also the biblical monologue on the subject is incredibly consistent there's not really a way.

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Andy Miller III: To move outside of that without rejecting authority scripture so some people would say, well, here Andy and matt you're critiquing the.

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Andy Miller III: The these folks because of women in ministry and but you're doing the same thing with sexuality, do you think that that that i've made a good enough case that there's a distinction there.

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Matt O'Reilly: yeah there well there's if you just do it text by text and that's that's the way these things as a new doesn't guy.

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Matt O'Reilly: that's my effort to do it, I think it's the right way to do it, you just go text by text and do the exit Jesus right it's not particularly I mean it's pretty clear the New Testament doesn't give a pathway towards the affirmation of same sex practices.

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Andy Miller III: Right right.

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Andy Miller III: And that's held by scholars, who would have a different view.

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Matt O'Reilly: yeah so I mean you know you get people like Luke Timothy Johnson.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right highly credible New Testament scholar he affirms same sex practices.

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Matt O'Reilly: I mean I don't want to over speak for him, but his he's you know he's he's on the progressive side of the issue he just think but but, but he thinks it's eminently clear that Paul condemn same safe practices.

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Andy Miller III: Right right.

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Matt O'Reilly: He just thinks Paul was wrong.

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Andy Miller III: Right exactly.

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Matt O'Reilly: So you know you do get you do get attempts I don't want to I don't want to.

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Matt O'Reilly: commit a hasty generalization myself you do get attempts to sort of.

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Matt O'Reilly: Say that Paul created space for the sorts of same sex relationships we have today that weren't the same sort of thing like, then I don't find those persuasive and I think pretty serious critiques of that has been done, and done successfully.

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Matt O'Reilly: But, but if you look at the tasks that involve women in ministry and we can take a look at a few of them if you.

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Matt O'Reilly: Like.

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Matt O'Reilly: they're not even remotely as clear cut as the compliment periods would want you to say and people like Danny bird I think in the article which I responded.

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Andy Miller III: A month or so i'll post a link to that to in the show notes, you can find.

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Andy Miller III: matt article there yeah click on that sorry to interrupt you.

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Matt O'Reilly: But but but Danny and some of the folks he quotes tend to say things like well you give a little on women in ministry okay.

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Matt O'Reilly: But it's a slippery slope to you know affirmation of full affirmation of LGBT Q, like all that.

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Matt O'Reilly: And I would want to argue, and I would point to plenty of evangelicalism New Testament scholars who argue that it's not a slippery slope, and they they don't do that right, you have plenty of folks who are thoroughly committed to trustworthiness of scripture thoroughly committed to.

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Matt O'Reilly: A traditional orthodox understanding of the complimentary complimentary nature of Christian marriage.

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Matt O'Reilly: Who affirm the full full roll women in ministry in full roles so it's not it's not like oh i'm that one guy who who who hasn't fallen down the slippery slope there's there are plenty of folks.

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Andy Miller III: Right.

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Matt O'Reilly: And you listen to the article people who have been.

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Andy Miller III: You know, Presidents of the President of evangelical theological society, I mean.

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Andy Miller III: We could go down your mentor and you've been with ringtone you could mean we can just keep on going at a long list of folks.

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Andy Miller III: are in.

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Andy Miller III: really happened to be also in our traditions, to a lot of times but not not exclusively right.

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Matt O'Reilly: yeah yeah I think eight of the past presidents of the Angelika theological.

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Matt O'Reilly: theological society have been egalitarians which means they earn the guarantee of scripture and they have firm full full roles for women in ministry, so it seems to me just.

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Matt O'Reilly: Just all together misleading to say that this slippery slope exists, and there are literally dozens and dozens and dozens of people.

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Matt O'Reilly: In the evangelical Community not just people but scholars, I mean there's plenty more outside the scope of scholarship, but there are plenty of scholars, you can go to for these things.

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Andy Miller III: there's plenty of people not slipping down that slippery slope.

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Matt O'Reilly: that's right and and it makes me think I and that's why that's why I was willing to take a rather aggressive posture in my my essay is because people like going strain and any bird don't get to pretend they don't know about this stuff.

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Matt O'Reilly: right there both PhDs.

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Matt O'Reilly: You know Danny Burke, is, I think he's the President of the Council on biblical manhood moment they know the material they know who the people are who are out there.

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Matt O'Reilly: If they you know they don't get to say oh I haven't heard about those folks like it's easy to find you can find them on Amazon.

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Matt O'Reilly: In plenty.

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Andy Miller III: So right, and I think you and I would both say.

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Andy Miller III: We wouldn't say that they are not allowed to hold this position, like they come to a different view that and and they could be a part of organizations are denominations that do not affirm that that's fine but let's not call people's evangelical street cred you know into question.

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Matt O'Reilly: that's right yeah and and and I have plenty of friends who disagree with me on this, who are complimentary.

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Matt O'Reilly: We love each other, we are friendly we are charitable we pray together we care for one another, our kids play together right it's not it doesn't have to be an aggressive antagonistic relationship and in these days of just such deep conflict in our society and polarization.

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Matt O'Reilly: yeah I would think that you know it would be better for those of us who are committed to the trustworthiness of scripture to to say you know I don't agree with o'reilly on these sorts of things, or whoever.

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Andy Miller III: Right right.

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Matt O'Reilly: But in this world.

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Matt O'Reilly: Of polarization and conflict can't we can't we focus on this can we just give each other the benefit of the doubt all.

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Andy Miller III: Right right.

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Matt O'Reilly: So I wasn't so much arguing against complimentary aneurysm i've done that, before and i'll be happy to have that conversation I was primarily in the essay you reference arguing against the posture.

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Matt O'Reilly: Yes, and when I take to be core argumentative strategies that a couple of particular complimentary things are taking.

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Andy Miller III: yeah and it's a pretty strong conclusion to this essay that you wrote, because you end with us and.

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Andy Miller III: Sorry, so I can't help but laugh a little bit, but just to confess and repent I mean that's the call now it's like a it's a prophetic posture that you're taking but you you feel like there's a reason to make that call because they're they're really calling into question.

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Andy Miller III: Somebody else's like the foundation for their their life and Ministry.

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Matt O'Reilly: that's right that's right so here's here's here's an example, so I teach I teach my students.

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Matt O'Reilly: to represent those with whom they disagree as ably and as as accurately as possible, so we're wesleyan if they're writing something on Calvinism I don't want them to to.

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Matt O'Reilly: commit the straw man fallacy with cal.

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Andy Miller III: Right right right.

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Matt O'Reilly: you give me the absolute best version of the other view as you possibly can, because if you give me a week version of it.

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Matt O'Reilly: Your argument won't be credible right you've got to argue against the real thing 1111 scholar I forget who was one Professor said, give me a steel man, not a straw man.

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Andy Miller III: There you go.

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Matt O'Reilly: Are you against the steel man, not a strong right so for Burke and strain to say people like us reject the trudge the authority of scripture.

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Matt O'Reilly: And are fuzzy on its truthfulness, then that like that's a straw man because that's not how that's not like we weren't quite we work hard to have a robust view of the trustworthiness, and the authorities.

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Matt O'Reilly: And so, when they go and attribute things to us that we don't actually hold they're committing a straw man fallacy, and it under my and and it undermines.

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Matt O'Reilly: It undermines their credibility.

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Matt O'Reilly: The issue with this particular debate is these guys know better.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right they're not they're not novices they're not rookies this isn't their first, the first time they argue this debate, they know.

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Matt O'Reilly: Who been witherington is or they should because he's been riding on this for decades right Lucy pepe it.

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Matt O'Reilly: Lynn kogi like there Craig keener there are plenty of folks who have written on this to affirm the truthfulness of scripture and disagree with them.

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Matt O'Reilly: And so, so it's miss the reason that I took a rather more prophetic posture calling them to repent is because I think they're just lying there committing as they're leading people they are acting.

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Andy Miller III: As an.

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Matt O'Reilly: Employee and that may seem like a strong statement, but I think it's true right.

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Matt O'Reilly: You know, and you get this tone and in berks argument he says well these folks say they affirm the authority of scripture but they don't really right that's that's a lot.

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Andy Miller III: it's just not true right right.

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Andy Miller III: I appreciate you hitting this mountain out Oh, I want to get next page some of the passages and we'll talk about this more you can actually look at i'm sorry I have.

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Andy Miller III: A lawn mower outside my office, right now, so if you're here, please forgive me folks i'll just try to keep talking here, I have leaves BERT personnel up in my windows that kind of thing so.

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Andy Miller III: Could you present think of that the steel man view the charitable view what's the charitable view of their position kind of like In summary, like two to three minutes.

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Andy Miller III: And then let's get let's go let's look at like maybe at first Corinthians 12 and 14 and look at some of those after that but let's look.

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Andy Miller III: what's the steel man.

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Matt O'Reilly: So so for the commentary in.

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Matt O'Reilly: First, Timothy Chapter two is really the crucial text, there are some others that are important, but this one is particularly significant and it's it's train new the new revised standard version translates it this way.

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Matt O'Reilly: it's first Timothy 211 let a woman learn in silence with full submission I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she is to keep silent.

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Matt O'Reilly: For Adam was formed first then Eve and Adam was not deceive but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

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Matt O'Reilly: And so the argument is Paul says very clearly that women shall not teacher have authority and folks like don Carson and TIM Keller argue that that's not two things it's one things it's exercise authority by teaching.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right it's how I would put it.

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Matt O'Reilly: And so, so.

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Matt O'Reilly: You know so so you hear folks say things like you know how you can go and take this commandment omen shall not teach.

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Matt O'Reilly: exercise authority by teaching and think that it's okay for women to be pastors and teach and have pastoral authority you've just catch this verse aside right, you might as well, read that page of your Bible.

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Matt O'Reilly: And so, so so that's the argument just in summary form.

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Andy Miller III: yeah.

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Matt O'Reilly: The problem with that is that it doesn't take into account the problems in this text.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right, for example, the word that Paul uses for authority here isn't the typical word he uses for authority.

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Matt O'Reilly: The word he uses for authority here only occurs one time and the entire New Testament it's called it's a.

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Matt O'Reilly: it's a hot box like dominoes it occurs here and nowhere else and the difficulty with that is the way that we will figure out what words mean.

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Matt O'Reilly: Is will say all right here's Paul and he uses the word for righteousness in all of these places, and so let's put them all on put them all up and go through and get a sense of the semantic range.

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Matt O'Reilly: yeah was it can mean different times in different ways, whether it's talking about god's own righteousness or my.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right just status before God different places that work and mean different things, and that range will give us kind of some options and then we'll go to specific texts and try to figure out which one of those options works in.

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Matt O'Reilly: Which text well this instance you don't get a semantic range, because you only have the word showing up one time, not only in Paul, but in the entire New Testament no one else uses this word.

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Matt O'Reilly: And so we don't get it's not his typical word right, so if Paul were sort of sort of borrowing women from typical authoritative teaching wouldn't we expect him to use the normal word he uses for that.

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Matt O'Reilly: And, in this instance outside of the New Testament the word he uses here typically has negative connotations.

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Matt O'Reilly: So it's more usurping authority that doesn't belong to you, those sorts of things, and so my my suggestion is what we have here is.

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Matt O'Reilly: You have, first of all, it would be unusual for women to be sitting at the feet of men learning anyway that's a that's a student posture you know, a rabbi would gather his students around him.

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Matt O'Reilly: and

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Matt O'Reilly: In the Jewish context and teach them a man teaching men you wouldn't typically have women in that in that setting, and so the very fact that the women are in this place learning strikes me as as a typical anyway and sort of countercultural.

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Andy Miller III: That versa.

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Matt O'Reilly: For the for the first century GRECO Roman world and and then.

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Matt O'Reilly: You have this instance where, and so my suggestion is is these women are probably being taught in preparation to be teachers.

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Matt O'Reilly: But they need to finish their instruction first and not usurp authority that they haven't been trained for beforehand, I think that's an accurate reading and this takes the commentary and also say, well, the problem with that o'reilly is that Paul lodges this in the creation order.

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Matt O'Reilly: Adam was created first.

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Matt O'Reilly: He was created a second so that's an authoritative structure.

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Matt O'Reilly: He was created for she was created so again, she was to see the thing about, that is, though, is it's it's not quite it's not quite an argument from.

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Matt O'Reilly: Priority right it's an argument based on how the deception came about, and if you go back and look at genesis.

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Matt O'Reilly: In genesis to Adam gets the command not to eat the fruit before Eve is created, and then, when the serpent as Steve did God really say not to eat the fruit remember she wasn't there when the command was given she says he said don't eat it and he also said don't touch it.

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Matt O'Reilly: We never actually said don't touch it.

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Matt O'Reilly: He just said don't eat it, so the question that it takes invites us to ask the question where did where did that, where did that come from where did that extra prohibition come from.

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Matt O'Reilly: And it seems to me a thoroughly appropriate conclusion, to say that Adam was entrusted with instructing get like with transmitting god's word to her.

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Matt O'Reilly: So God gives us were to add them and it's Adams job to teach Eve, and if he had taught her well she wouldn't have been deceived, she would have been prepared for to do battle with the serpent right because he failed to transmit god's word like accurately.

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Matt O'Reilly: He set her up for for deception and failure, she touches it everything seems fine so she eats it and then he did, and they fall right, so the issue isn't.

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Matt O'Reilly: Does the first person have some sort of ontological inherent authority, the issue is how did the deception come about.

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Matt O'Reilly: hmm and the appeal to the creation story isn't about ontological authority or inherit male authority it's about how how Eve was deceived right so.

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Matt O'Reilly: So Eve was deceived because she hadn't been given the full to the accurate teaching and is that analogous to the argument of what's happening in.

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Andy Miller III: These women need to have that full teaching.

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Matt O'Reilly: yeah they need to get the whole story before they're ready to teach.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right, so they shouldn't negatively you serve some sort of teaching authority before they're.

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Andy Miller III: prepared right.

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Matt O'Reilly: I think that makes better sense of the creation of paul's appeal to the creation story.

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Matt O'Reilly: In light of what we actually get in first Timothy.

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Andy Miller III: that's good, so I mean we weren't even good at passes by I appreciate that because I like blue you're able to present that, in a way.

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Andy Miller III: That was again a good example of the way of dialogue Tara charitable way of presenting their view now of course they're going to disagree there'll be disagreements, but um let's let's jump to the first Corinthians.

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Andy Miller III: Two because, like, for instance in first Corinthians 14 women should remain silent in the churches, they are not allowed to speak but must be in submission as a law says and there's this interesting comparison with other places to even within this letter so help us with that matt.

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Matt O'Reilly: yeah so a lot of times when I write or speak about these things people will quote first Corinthians 1434 women should be silent, how can you be a pastor if you're supposed to be silent.

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Andy Miller III: Why and.

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Matt O'Reilly: The trouble with that again is not reading it in context so so Paul says, first, first of all, the question is what's an issue in first Corinthians 14 and the issue is orderly worship not who the pastor is.

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Matt O'Reilly: Alright, so I think it's a fault step initially to go and take a text that's written about how to maintain order in worship.

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Matt O'Reilly: And then extrapolate something out about pastoral offices that, in my view, is a really bad interpretive strategy, you can make the Bible say anything you want it to say, if you take things out of their context so.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right so Paul isn't even asking the question, who is the pastor here, nobody said, are women allowed to be pastors.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right sugars.

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Matt O'Reilly: Is if there's a disruption if a woman disrupts the orderliness of the service, how do we proceed we'll come back to that in a second.

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Matt O'Reilly: So.

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Matt O'Reilly: In the larger context, if you go back to first Corinthians 11.

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Matt O'Reilly: Paul says in.

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Matt O'Reilly: verse five any woman who prays or prophesies with their head on unveiled disgraces or hey we won't get into head coverings in this one that's a big issue in itself My point is simply to say in first Corinthians 11.

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Matt O'Reilly: Paul acknowledges that women do indeed speak in the gathered corporate worship right praying and prophesied right so praying and then prophesied will be some sort of.

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Matt O'Reilly: exhortation in the language of the people yeah not speaking in tongues but but but an understandable teaching instruction exhortation.

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Matt O'Reilly: On god's behalf as a in some prophetic role right so so whatever Paul means in first Corinthians 14 saying women shouldn't speak does not mean women shouldn't speak in every circumstance.

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Matt O'Reilly: I right because he's already given us to circumstances in which women are permitted to speak right.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right prophesied.

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Matt O'Reilly: So you cannot read first Corinthians 14.

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Andy Miller III: As this.

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Matt O'Reilly: Universal objective unqualified rejection of female speech in church.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right that's not what I did.

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Matt O'Reilly: And and and there's another another another point to be made as well and Lucy pepe it makes this point in some of her work on first Corinthians which I would give give listeners a link to her work.

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For.

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Matt O'Reilly: Women in worship in Corinth but, but she makes the point you know do do these great painting the you know first first century Rome is a patriarchal society.

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Matt O'Reilly: And let's say let's just let's just play a little mind experiment thought experiment here let's say there are some rowdy women right who are just.

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Matt O'Reilly: Making a lot of noise and disrupting the worship service Do we really think the corinthian men are so weak that they have to take the time to write a letter to Paul to.

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Matt O'Reilly: To you know which will take time to get it written weeks to get it delivered time for him to compose a response weeks to get it sent back like and they're going to go on weeks and weeks and weeks and months and months, waiting for Paul to tell the women to be quiet.

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Matt O'Reilly: hmm I that's that's, not even a remotely reasonable hypothesis right a man in the first century, if he wants a woman to be quiet will tell her to be quiet.

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Matt O'Reilly: yeah he's not going to write somebody in another city and asked him to do that for it so so and a lot of people think that's what's happening here like the women are going crazy and the men are like what do we do.

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Matt O'Reilly: That like that's not a plausible hypotheses, what is it plausible hypotheses well it's Luke pepe it makes this argument she says it's possible that that Paul is here, quoting his opponents.

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Matt O'Reilly: it's not Paul, who says, a woman must be silent it's the corinthian opponents who say well.

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Matt O'Reilly: interesting and and and and here and the difficulty is coin agreed in the first century didn't use quotation marks so it's hard for us to know right, but the Corinthians would know if Paul were.

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Matt O'Reilly: Were summarizing their position or not, so the question then becomes well how do we, how do we, how do we discern these quotes and and all New Testament scholars agree that Paul quotes his opponents.

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Matt O'Reilly: Ryan first Corinthians in my work on Paul and the resurrection I deal with that, to some degree, I push back against that consensus about the length of the quotation in first Corinthians 612 to 20 right, so all New Testament scholars agree that Paul quotes his opponents in first Corinthians.

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Andy Miller III: Well, we have been here.

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Andy Miller III: At take me another podcast where we talk about this exact same thing.

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Andy Miller III: We had Dr Isaiah Allen on to talk about titus and he did his dissertation on the statement about the cretins always been lazy gluttons.

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Andy Miller III: So I think it's the same thing, like he asserts that what's going on here it's a quote like they would even say something like this.

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Andy Miller III: They would even say like that you're this way you lazy gluttons that type of thing so anyways this is, I just wanted to highlight if people are interested in that idea go back to my interview is a lie okay keep going back.

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Matt O'Reilly: there's a lot of great stuff on this so everybody agrees that call it quits his opponents, we will we don't agree on is the extent to which he closes opponents.

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Andy Miller III: And where it.

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Matt O'Reilly: says the bones, and so pepe it argues that one of the ways, you can that the ancient ancient authors would indicate that they were quoting someone else is like if it stands in direct contrast with something they've already said.

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Andy Miller III: yeah.

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Matt O'Reilly: Sure right, so if Paul says something that seems contradictory to something he's already said chances are in one instance he's quoting someone else.

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Matt O'Reilly: hmm and just a few minutes ago, we noted that in first Corinthians 11 Paul talks about occasions when women speak in worship.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right, so the this this this almost unqualified declaration that women must be silent seems to at least stand intention with that, if not contradicted which is at least, which is evidence that we should at least consider the fact that this may not be paul's words at all.

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Matt O'Reilly: yeah maybe voting.

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Matt O'Reilly: his opponents and so.

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Matt O'Reilly: Here here's the.

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Matt O'Reilly: here's the thing for me.

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Matt O'Reilly: Compliments marion's tend to treat these texts as eminently clear open and shut cases.

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Matt O'Reilly: And the problem is first Timothy to first Corinthians 11 and 14 are some of the most problematic text in the New Testament grab a commentary.

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Matt O'Reilly: You grab a critical commentary on first Corinthians and you read the sections on 11 and 14 and any scholar worth her or his salt.

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Matt O'Reilly: will acknowledge that there are manifold difficulties to actually an exegetical E with interpreting these these texts specifically and then from for me then.

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Matt O'Reilly: The question then becomes Am I comfortable telling.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right half of the Church.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right you're not qualified.

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Andy Miller III: or even a third of the Church.

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Matt O'Reilly: yeah yeah the women.

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yeah.

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Matt O'Reilly: In your.

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Matt O'Reilly: your sense of call is invalid based on some of the most problematic and difficult takes in the entire candidates.

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Matt O'Reilly: yeah man to me just seems irresponsible.

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Matt O'Reilly: and wrong.

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Andy Miller III: yeah hey man, this is so interesting in you're not denying anything about the differences that people have that men and women have.

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Andy Miller III: The complementary nature of the human body or anything like that this is like just saying like.

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Andy Miller III: there's not really a good foundation to question people I think that's and I hope, people can walk away like even if we're not a serious I think matt you could.

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Andy Miller III: You could be a full out complimentary and and present this view.

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Andy Miller III: present this say right this same article, because what we're trying to say is this is not a healthy approach within evangelicalism to come in amongst people who share the authority of scripture to come at it this way.

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Andy Miller III: To be able to say these controversial controversial texts that have vast problems is not a way to be the ruler like like thinking of like a ruler, or like a guide or a cannon for how we think about these passages.

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Matt O'Reilly: yeah that's right and and I remember my PhD Professor Andrew Lincoln said to me one time, he said it's not a problem to name the problem.

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Andy Miller III: Right.

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Matt O'Reilly: Its own like these are 2000 year old text written in a language that is in US anymore.

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Matt O'Reilly: In the same way, and there are like there are difficulties with that.

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Andy Miller III: yeah.

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Matt O'Reilly: it's not it's I mean.

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Matt O'Reilly: it's hard work.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right so and and and and for me part of taking the Bible seriously.

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Matt O'Reilly: means being honest when the Bible is difficult.

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Andy Miller III: Right.

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Matt O'Reilly: If there are textual variance if there are exegetical difficulties if there are places where there's tension like I don't want to say past story I don't want to say the congregation This is absolutely crystal clear no questions asked.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right, I want to say you know what.

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Matt O'Reilly: God has given us the scriptures and in his wisdom he's done it through this process of Revelation and canonization and he's done it providential and we have it in our language but that doesn't mean there aren't difficulties.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right, there are problems.

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Matt O'Reilly: It doesn't mean that he does that God doesn't expect us to approach this with some humility and some charity.

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Matt O'Reilly: Right, I think, just sort of pretending the problems don't exist are saying, well, some people think those are problems but they're not really is just really dishonest.

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Matt O'Reilly: And in my view, a person who won't acknowledge exegetical difficulties.

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Matt O'Reilly: Really isn't taking the Bible seriously at all.

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Andy Miller III: wow yeah good point and it's good reason for it to be a secondary issue like a secondary tertiary issue.

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Matt O'Reilly: that's exactly why it's tier two tier three because.

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Andy Miller III: You bring up the text, a few weeks ago we had.

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Andy Miller III: Our other colleague David shriner on Dr David shriner to talk about her arm in the in joshua.

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Andy Miller III: The for totally destroy totally devote devote to the band, and he was just saying like look with this word I would have.

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Andy Miller III: A student will get a good grade for me if they say.

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Andy Miller III: No God harass them, you know, like like, in this case like that's a good translation because it's really a hard thing to get to what the actual meaning is like really, and this is why in most translations that you have.

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Andy Miller III: We if you get to it and you look down if you see like a little footnote.

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Andy Miller III: And there's all kinds of words, it means like it could be decent sometimes those things are completely different because a textual traditions, this does it underscore or underrate the authority of scripture but we just seen a recognized.

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Andy Miller III: problematic passages when they come about and we can then trust that God is going to lead us and direct us we use other methods for being able to get to meaning.

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Matt O'Reilly: You know and that's, not to say that we can't understand the Bible and it's not only scholars, are the ones who get to do it.

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Andy Miller III: Right right right.

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Matt O'Reilly: The Church isn't.

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Matt O'Reilly: is a community of people who read scripture together lady clergy scholars popular level readers.

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Matt O'Reilly: You know, and we do our best together.

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Andy Miller III: And we.

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Matt O'Reilly: bring something to the table we don't want an elitist kind of academic thing where only the people who read Greek get to say what the Bible means.

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Andy Miller III: Right right right.

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Matt O'Reilly: But we do want to be honest about what we're dealing with in the Bible and take that serious and so like that's that's that's kind of where I am on it.

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Matt O'Reilly: And it seems to me that and it happens frequently people will say, like a YouTube video about Evan egalitarianism, people will just say it's clear women on can speak or it's clear women can teach and it's not clear at all.

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Matt O'Reilly: yeah those those texts are complicated.

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Matt O'Reilly: yeah cool.

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Matt O'Reilly: And we if we if we respect the Bible, we should be honest about that.

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Andy Miller III: yeah I says different interpretations matt thanks for taking time to work through this complicated issue and and again, if you like, what you hear here.

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Andy Miller III: I encourage you to go wps.edu where you could study with Dr matt o'reilly so now he's not full time Professor here, but he does teach regularly as an adjunct and in our demon.

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Andy Miller III: course so well, and we have many people who might be interested in working through a demon and matt helps guide that process as people work through their dissertation yeah you got one thing.

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Matt O'Reilly: i'll plug the demon program this way, if you like, what you heard about the pastor theologian.

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Andy Miller III: role yeah.

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Matt O'Reilly: And you want to be the sort of pastor who can lead your church theologically then our doctor ministry will be of interest to you.

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So.

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Andy Miller III: yeah and matt Orleans one question with the I hear I generally ask people what's more to the story for you, like a lot of times like people might know you a little bit maybe know you on Twitter but tell us a little bit more about men o'reilly let something that Bay people don't know.

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Matt O'Reilly: Oh, I love to play the guitar.

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Matt O'Reilly: and

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Matt O'Reilly: I do it as much as I can, which isn't as much as i'd like.

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Andy Miller III: Interesting now I thought we were going to hear something about all burn or something like that you certainly an auburn fan right.

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Matt O'Reilly: Over basketball is rocking and rolling over footballs got a ways to go.

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Andy Miller III: yeah we'll see what happens in the tournament one of my favorite times of the year is coming up soon, and you guys are positioned better than my indiana hoosiers at the moment but we'll see what happens.

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Andy Miller III: We will thanks matt God bless you.