Flipping the Script with Dr. Frank Turek

You can find out more about Frank and his ministry at https://crossexamined.org

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Friends, for the most accurate transcript of this podcast please see the audio or video recording.

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Welcome to the more to the story podcast I am so excited today to have on somebody i've admired for a long time I just met a seconds ago, and that is down.

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Andy Miller III: Here frank terrific frank Thank you so much for coming to the morning story podcast.

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frankturek: Andy my pleasure thanks for having me on.

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Andy Miller III: You know people like that I hope some people know you already, but if not i'm really glad to introduce them to you I love the way God has called you to use your gifts and your rhetorical ability to.

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Andy Miller III: Go on college campuses.

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Andy Miller III: be active on YouTube active and various channels to really bring the Gospel into very dark places, can you tell us a little bit about how you came to faith and what led you to this type of Ministry.

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frankturek: yeah well I grew up in a in New Jersey, so I was Catholic because it's the law.

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frankturek: I don't know.

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frankturek: and

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frankturek: I always knew that God existed I knew there had to be a first cause I knew that there was a God.

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frankturek: Just I you know just through natural theology just well someone had to create all this right.

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frankturek: there's an effect, known as creation, there must be a cause of creator.

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frankturek: But I never really knew who Jesus was or how he fit in So when I was in the navy I wound up rooming with the son of a Methodist Minister and I had so many questions for him, he said, you just need to get josh McDowell books.

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frankturek: Evidence demands a verdict and more than a.

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frankturek: carpenter so I read those books and I realized wow this really looks like it's true and then, when I got out of the navy.

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frankturek: About a year after I got out of the navy, I met Norman geisler, who was the head of southern evangelical seminary here in Charlotte he had just started it and.

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frankturek: It wound up that I was interested in apologetics evidence for the faith and that's what this whole seminary is about, and so in 1993 my wife and I and our three kids three sons moved to Charlotte.

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frankturek: And attended seminary and then he and I wrote a couple of books together one's called legislating morality and the other is called I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.

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frankturek: And then in about 2007, or so I started a ministry called cross examine.org where we go to colleges high schools and churches and present evidence that Christianity is true.

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frankturek: And most of that you can see on our YouTube channel because we stream everything from a college campus and then we put.

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frankturek: The Q amp a up there as well, so there's over 1000 short Q amp a videos on our website that deal with college students asking questions and trying to give a you know kind of a short response.

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Andy Miller III: yeah I love it in this relationship, you had with Norman geisler who's really obviously.

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Andy Miller III: well known person in evangelical tradition tell me a little bit about that, like Obviously he was somebody who is you're very close with him and a lot of his process and his arguments are things that you've taken on and take into a very public level tell us about him.

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frankturek: yeah Well he when I met him was sort of the Michael Jordan of apologetics I mean.

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frankturek: In fact, when he died he died in.

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frankturek: They counted up how many books either wrote co wrote or re released after an initial release you know rewrites and that kind of thing, the total number of books was 129.

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frankturek: So.

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frankturek: So he has written more books than most people have read in fact i'm probably written more books and most people have read.

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frankturek: You know 10 or 10 or 20 times as many because he was just so prolific, and I say say I wrote a couple of them with him and he was.

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frankturek: A brilliant philosopher and apologist and someone who could explain the opponent's position better than the opponent could explain it and then refute it, you know, in the next sentence.

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frankturek: And so I learned so much traveling with him and learning from him and he see in him answer questions so that's really how I got into this.

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Andy Miller III: yeah I one of the things I love that they hear you do when i've listened to.

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Andy Miller III: Your debates on college campuses and even just a title that you use of the book that you and Dr guys, I wrote together, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.

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Andy Miller III: Is, you have the The turnaround phrase like so often you take, but people give to you and you understand where they're coming from, but you you turn it around.

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Andy Miller III: on them, so I don't have enough faith to be an atheist that's one of your books it's been a name of one of your shows in the past will tell me even about that phrase like How does How does that work.

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frankturek: Well, that actually I didn't name the book.

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frankturek: Okay, we were well I we did I didn't come up with it i'll tell you how it happened.

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frankturek: Dr guys should I used to travel the country doing a seminar called the 12 points to show christianity's true, which is essentially an outline he developed over the years.

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frankturek: To go, step by step from does truth exist, all the way to the Bible is the word of God.

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frankturek: And, at one point we were going through or he was going through the fine tuning argument for the existence of the designer you know the universe is fine tuned so there must be a fine tuned out there.

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frankturek: And he was just going through some pretty persuasive evidence and after he finished, he said, look in light of all this, I just don't have enough faith to be an atheist, and I went that needs to be the title of our book.

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frankturek: Right, because we were about to turn it into a book, and so we submitted it as the title and originally the publisher said we don't like the title, I said you don't like the title, what do you mean you don't like the title what's wrong with the title.

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frankturek: And they said, well, we think we should call it the truth about truth.

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frankturek: And we said sorry it's a deal breaker if you don't like the title we're going to another publisher and they said okay let's take the title.

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frankturek: Thankfully they stuck with the title because it's a counterintuitive title and that's the beauty of it right you think Oh, the Christians have all the faith no it's the atheist that have all the faith actually.

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frankturek: And the word faith in this context we're using it in the way the culture uses the word faith not really the way the Bible uses it, you know the Bible uses the word faith to say.

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frankturek: Really it's trusting in what you have good evidence to believe, but the culture thinks faith is, if you don't have evidence, you have faith it's blind, in other words.

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frankturek: Right, and so what we're saying is the atheists have blind faith to believe what they believe because there's so much evidence pointing to the fact that God exists and that Christianity is true they're the ones that have to have all the blind faith, not us.

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Andy Miller III: yeah absolutely what are some of those key points that you go through when you talk about that, with the I don't have enough faith to be an atheist fine tuning you already mentioned.

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frankturek: But what right well we do we do for questions when we go to a college campus or even a church.

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frankturek: The four questions that need to be answered, are does truth exists does God exist.

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frankturek: Are miracles possible and is the New Testament reliable enough to let us know if the resurrection occurred because of the resurrection suckered in the resurrection really did occur Christianity is true.

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frankturek: If it didn't occur it's fall, so we deal with those four questions true God miracles New Testament and.

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frankturek: So you have to deal with truth, because people will say there's no truth you got your truth, I got my truth and when they say that we just point out it's self defeating right to say there's no truth is the truth claim, you know.

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frankturek: That there's no.

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frankturek: You can't get away from it, so of course there's truth, otherwise you'd never go to college you'd never try and learn anything right, of course, is true.

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Andy Miller III: Now.

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Andy Miller III: interrupt you there i'll say, since I am there's no doubt about it, it comes through in this interview that i'm a i'm a frank Turk fan at Dr frank Turk fan, and therefore my kids are frank Turk fans too.

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Andy Miller III: So you're the great intro to the great intro to your radio show which is American family radio.

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Andy Miller III: And not here, it was a biblical seminary we're connected to that network.

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Andy Miller III: My kids will say they hear your intro which says so, when somebody asked you about about truth that you don't leave absolute truth, you have it, is that true.

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frankturek: Right is that true car, they just say they say it.

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Andy Miller III: Every time.

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Is that good.

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frankturek: yeah Russia, you know I really think that's the key Andy that one idea of turning a claim on itself is really half of what you need to know to defend the Christian faith, because so many.

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frankturek: So many positions that atheists and agnostics or unbelievers have are literally self defeating you know they say there's there's no truth is that true they say Oh, I get to live my truth and you ask them is that the truth of just your truth right.

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frankturek: I mean if it's a truth, then it's not just your truth and if it's just your truth, or in other words if it's just my truth it's just my opinion, then why should I believe it it's not grounded in anything outside yourself right.

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frankturek: or they might say all truth comes from science and ask them well does that truth come from science.

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frankturek: that's a philosophical claim you can't prove that in the laboratory.

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frankturek: And you can't do science without philosophy that's part of the what what we cover in the book stealing from God or they might say you're not judge and then you ask them most out of judgment, you know why you're judging me for judging say.

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frankturek: So turning claims on itself is very important.

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Andy Miller III: It helps people that often when i've used that and you've helped me get there when i've used that they often don't know what they say back i'm not trying, unfortunately, it can seem like a gotcha sort of moment.

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Andy Miller III: But really trying to point out that existence of truth claims.

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Andy Miller III: it's not so bad.

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Andy Miller III: For instance, so i've actually had this podcast what i'm doing to the more industry podcast is coming at truth through an Orthodox wesleyan perspective so like in the that takes it Bible seriously that takes a claim to consensual claims of Christianity series.

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Andy Miller III: History so um but I got pushed back soon as I came out in the podcast to say, well, how can you say you know what orthodox right and.

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Andy Miller III: it's it's the same sort of thing as well, it sounds like you're claiming somewhere.

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Andy Miller III: Right yourself.

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frankturek: Right you're claiming it's it's it's it's not orthodox to say that people are an Orthodox.

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frankturek: Right right.

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frankturek: that's what they're saying that they're orthodox position is is that every positions true.

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frankturek: yeah well how can that be right.

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frankturek: that's you're claiming that's an Orthodox position as well, and of course they all can't be true.

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frankturek: claims are mutually contradictory, so they can all be true.

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frankturek: So everybody is coming from a position of an absolute The only question is is the absolute true right everybody's making judgments, the only question is is the judgment true.

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frankturek: I mean atheists make judgments right they judge there's no God they judge the bible's not true, they judge there's no meaning to life when you die you're just going to become warm food, you know, have a nice day right there's.

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frankturek: there's Those are all judgments that the only question is, are the judgments true that's really the issue and and that's that's what I think you need to stay on you know, are the judgments true and because everyone's making judgment, again, the only question is, is it really a true judgment.

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Andy Miller III: Right i've noticed that you take, and even your in your book stealing from God the end you talk about the four point case for mere Christianity.

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Andy Miller III: And yeah i've used that that language mere Christianity at even a post, the same orthodox you know traditional conservative is that is that language you think that is more effective like.

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frankturek: Getting to the well yeah because I think it's a.

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frankturek: it's dealing with just the essentials of the faith as CS Lewis would say mere Christianity right right, so we.

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frankturek: are not going to divide over secondary and tertiary issues you know we're not going to divide over motive baptism or your your s eschatological viewpoint, unless it's totally heretical you know Jesus is coming back that kind of thing.

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frankturek: You know we're not going to divide over the color of the carpet certainly.

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frankturek: we're not going to divide over your view of alcohol right, I know some Christians will but are divided over the age of the earth, or you know these kind of things.

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frankturek: Right, because as Paul says those things are really Romans 14 issues there.

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frankturek: They are disputable matters, and you can have your own conviction on it just don't try and impose your conviction on somebody else in fact that's the Orthodox view don't impose your conviction.

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frankturek: On the secondary and tertiary issues that don't have anything to do with salvation or sanctification yeah don't impose those on on one another.

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Andy Miller III: I want to go through in a minute your your book stealing from God.

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Andy Miller III: I want to come back to Norman geisler and you know there's something helpful that you, you produce a few years ago.

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Andy Miller III: Andy Stanley was also influenced by Norman geisler probably at Dallas theological.

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frankturek: Detroit yeah.

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Andy Miller III: And you know, and he came out with his you know, probably not the best use of language thinking of unhinging from the Old Testament.

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Andy Miller III: You had him on and I helped me to hear that why he was coming at that perspective was through the same emphasis that you have from Norman geisler that the real case is for the resurrection I get the.

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Andy Miller III: resurrection happen like that's.

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frankturek: kind of the basis for our friend who you.

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Andy Miller III: talk to me a little about that, and like it was a pretty I think it's a pretty bold thing for you to do because some folks who might even be your regular listeners would have been the first to kind of distance themselves from Andy Stanley but you decided to take a minute and really.

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frankturek: engaged yeah well Andy and I learned from the same guy and because of that we know one another.

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and

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frankturek: What Andy is pointing out is that when the first century in the in the first century after Jesus rises from the dead, the apostles didn't go around to even Jews or non Jews and say.

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frankturek: The reason you need to be a Christian is because this Old Testament is in Aaron right.

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frankturek: Now they believe that but that's not that's not the that's not their lead their lead is is because Jesus rose from the dead and as Andy said and he's right about this, he said.

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frankturek: The New Testament or let me put it another way, Christianity did not originate with the book it originated with an event.

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frankturek: The resurrection he said, do you realize, there were thousands of people who are Christians before a line of the New Testament was ever written.

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frankturek: Right and the answer is yes, why because they witnessed a resurrected Jesus they didn't read it in a book.

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frankturek: right they witnessed an event Jesus appeared to them, and so the approach is taking is the apostles approach to focus on the resurrection because of the resurrection really occurred, then everything else falls like dominoes after that.

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frankturek: Right, because that means Jesus is God and whatever God teaches is true Jesus taught the entire Old Testament is the word of God, and he promised the New Testament so you wind up with an errand Bible.

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frankturek: From the resurrection not because you can go through every single scrap of scripture and answer every possible objection to it.

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frankturek: Right now, I think we can do that in most cases, there may be some areas where to go I don't know the answer to this yet, but the reason I believe in an errand see is because Jesus did and and that's the that's the point that andy's making and that's the point that geiser always made.

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frankturek: that the key to an errand see is Jesus and the resurrection not the fact that you can.

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frankturek: give an answer to every suppose ID problem in the in the scriptures, as I say, I think we can, in fact, Dr geysers famous book.

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frankturek: It was called when critics ask now it's called the big book of Bible difficulties, where he and Tom how go through about 800 different questions about the Bible alleged contradictions and give a cogent answer to them.

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frankturek: That, I think that's an excellent book, but his point again is that Christianity is true because Jesus rose from the dead, because an event occurred it's an historical event.

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frankturek: it's, not because we have an inerrant Bible, the reason we have an errand Bible discuss Jesus rose from the dead that's the point.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, I love that and I think it's just it's an apologetic tactic that's how we come at it might not be and, unfortunately, probably a lot of people who are listening to that come at it, maybe from a discipleship.

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Andy Miller III: aim that's why they would listen to Andy Stanley, and so it might seem like you know the hitch comment and it's unfortunate that that language was us but, nevertheless, like the goal is something I think we attach and you helped me see that, too, so thanks for.

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Andy Miller III: Taking yeah well I think if you were to ask Andy today because he.

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frankturek: He said i'm open to other language on his from the Old Testament I think really what he he meant was unhedged from the old covenant.

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frankturek: Not the Old Testament.

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frankturek: Right, because the old covenant is obsolete according to the writer of Hebrews right we're not under the old covenant, and the problem is is we tend to mix and match our covenants as Andy put it.

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frankturek: And that's true.

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frankturek: A lot of the prosperity Gospel nonsense comes out of the old covenant right.

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frankturek: sure that you know they're they're quoting from molokai that god's going to you know fill up your store houses that's not that doesn't apply to us.

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frankturek: That applied to Israel and so people are mixing and matching their old covenants there's a lot in the Old Testament that that is is binding on Christians but it's not the old covenant.

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frankturek: You know the proverbs are still binding right that prophecies that are still good they still tell us the truth about Jesus.

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Andy Miller III: Some of the law that's right.

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frankturek: yeah yeah some of the descriptions of what what God is like obviously still apply, but his his covenant with Israel doesn't apply to Christians and yet Christians think it does right.

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Andy Miller III: You certainly can be ways that we can apply it, but at the same time it doesn't it doesn't necessarily like govern.

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frankturek: Look at our lives right.

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Andy Miller III: Okay, I wanted to talk to make sure I get in a little bit about the stealing from God book.

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Andy Miller III: which I love because it's the same idea that you able to do with even taking that phrase I don't have enough faith to be an atheist you point out in this book several areas where.

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Andy Miller III: The word atheists are just people who don't believe in Jesus or don't believe in the historical reality of our faith what ends up happening is they are dependent upon things that are revealed by.

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Andy Miller III: revealed in scripture revealed by Jesus himself so i'm really curious just take care of walk through these So the first one that you mentioned is causality, how is that something that gets stolen from God.

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frankturek: Well, why is this a world of cause and effect, I mean think about that fact when atheists say well there's no evidence for God I stopped you there's two there's two ways of dealing with that you could ask them well what evidence, would you want to see in order to.

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frankturek: Say it's possible God exists, but I kind of put that aside, and when they say there's no evidence for God, I asked them why is there evidence for anything I.

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frankturek: mean, why do we live in this world that is so governed by cause and effect and orderly natural laws, why is this word world orderly and why can our minds.

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frankturek: ascertain truths about the real world outside of our skulls right why, why can our three pound brain ascertain truce about the real world.

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frankturek: That seems to only make sense, on a theistic or at least a D mystic view of the world, not an atheistic view of the world right.

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frankturek: Order orderliness comes from an order fine tuning the fine tuning of the universe comes from an order from some fine tuner right that the creation of the universe itself.

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frankturek: comes from something outside the creation and so.

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frankturek: When atheists are trying to use cause and effect to say God doesn't exist they're actually pre supposing, this is a world of cause and effect and then you have to ask them a question why is that the case, why is this world so orderly, why does everything happened.

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frankturek: By cause and effect, why are the natural laws which govern all physical things it's an interesting the Andy that all physical things change, but it appears that the laws that govern physical things don't change.

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frankturek: Right, why is that right.

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frankturek: I mean, these are questions that you have to.

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frankturek: Ask.

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Andy Miller III: yeah existence of numbers and math.

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Andy Miller III: Why, why do we have this, what is this point, do you like that that enables you and I, to be talking right now.

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frankturek: yeah I know exactly.

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frankturek: And so we cover that and we also cover in that Chapter A atheist by the name of Lawrence krauss who wrote a book called the universe from nothing.

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frankturek: Where he's trying to explain how the universe could come into existence without God and he fails miserably even atheists admit he doesn't it doesn't work because his definition of nothing is not nothing.

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frankturek: it's actually something.

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frankturek: And he actually eventually admits that.

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frankturek: So that's what we cover, in fact, the book stealing from God I contend that atheists steal aspects of reality that would only exist if God existed in order to say he doesn't exist.

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frankturek: And it's in an acronym crime, so we just talked about seeing our is reason I his information and his morality is evil and SS science, these are all things that atheists.

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frankturek: Say somehow point to atheism when, in fact, none of those things would exist in my view.

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frankturek: causality reason information morality evil and science, none of those things would exist unless God existed so they're they're actually stealing from God argue against them, they have to sit in god's lab to slap his face that's what.

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Andy Miller III: Well, and you said something to use as you get started there by by starting with it the before we got the causality piece.

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Andy Miller III: This is a helpful piece I glean from you as well, was the going to somebody to say, if you are presented with the truth, would you believe, maybe that's not how you phrase it.

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frankturek: Was Christianity were true, and you become a Christian that's the question asked right if it were true, and most of the time, the atheists will either hesitate.

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frankturek: or they'll say no, because they're not on a truth quests are on a happiness quest right they don't want there to be a God, they want to be God have their own lives and they think God is going to get in the way of their happiness.

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frankturek: So what they don't realize is that god's moral commands are in place for our benefit for our own flourishing they're not meant to hinder our flourishing, but to advance are flourishing.

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frankturek: In fact, Tim Keller gives a good illustration, he says, when you buy a new car comes with a manual right and it's going to say you know do this if you want to maintain the car well but don't do these things, if you do these things you're going to hurt yourself and maybe hurt the car right.

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frankturek: Now we don't get mad at hyundai or Ford or chevy whoever when they give us a manual that say that says do this and don't do this, we go oh thanks you're that you're the designer this thing we get it Okay, we know.

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frankturek: Why do we get mad at God who essentially gives us the same thing, it gives us a manual about how to operate life.

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frankturek: And we're mad when he says don't do these things, or do these things well what, why is that.

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frankturek: it's not because we're being reasonable.

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frankturek: Right it's because we just don't like it, because we want to do our own thing we love darkness, rather than light.

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Andy Miller III: And I think in your chapter on morality and evil, this is a you often go back to that and I appreciate that and then, when i've watched your debate.

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Andy Miller III: So often um people might bring up violence in the Old Testament but then you'll quickly say you know, a all of a sudden, you really like to see God respond the evil.

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frankturek: right here, I hear this.

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Andy Miller III: Pretty regularly that you got to do something about this, and when he did you don't like it very much.

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frankturek: Right that's right God.

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frankturek: yeah when they're always complaining why doesn't God stop evil and then, when in terms of the cane canaanites were literally sacrificing their children to molik God steps in and stops it and they're going that's wrong but wait a minute.

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frankturek: Look, you can't have it both ways you want God to intervene or not Okay, he does, and now you're mad well because he killed children yeah well okay that's what it seems to say and maybe maybe that is actually the case, it could be hyperbole as Paul co pan talks about.

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frankturek: right in his book is got a moral monster, but even if God does decide to kill people it's not the same as us doing it.

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frankturek: Why because God is the author of life, he can take life anytime he wants if he wants to judge people at any age, he can.

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frankturek: And he can resurrect them into the next life because look if Christianity is true people don't die, they just change location right they go from this life to eternity.

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frankturek: And it's up to God when that happens, where do we don't have the authority to take life unless we're part of a just government who are protecting the innocent from evil, but as individuals we don't have the authority to take life but God certainly does.

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frankturek: Right so.

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frankturek: And sometimes i'll ask them.

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frankturek: Andy when they asked that question, you know about the canaanites and they're all upset about it i'll ask them will Where are you on the abortion issue, are you a pro life or pro abortion and almost invariably they say pro abortion and I go wait a minute.

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frankturek: Why is it that when, God, please God in the Bible and decide to lives and dies he's immoral, but when you play God here on earth, and you decide who lives and dies, by way of abortion you think that's your moral right, why do you have a moral right to kill but God doesn't.

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Andy Miller III: Right right.

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frankturek: You know.

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frankturek: I mean it's it's very inconsistent.

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Andy Miller III: In that you use morality argument like CS lewis's argument pretty regularly because that just seems to come up on almost most of the questions.

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frankturek: That you have more questions.

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frankturek: Right now.

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Andy Miller III: In and what forms of those take particularly like I I, and I find benefit from watching you engage on secular campuses and generally that's what people are wanting to talk about what are some of those questions that come up.

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frankturek: yeah well questions on morality, I think, are probably about 70% of the questions we get on a college campus you know you could talk about the beginning of the universe, the design of the universe, and the design of life and then you talk about morality.

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frankturek: People can ignore the creation, people can ignore design, but it's really hard to ignore morality, because they deal with it every day right and wrong a dealing with every day and on a college campus.

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frankturek: People have a very overdeveloped sense of justice right they think they've got all sorts of causes there for or against right everyone has a right to this right to that so they're really dialed in on on morality and justice, well, I point out look if there is no God there's no justice.

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frankturek: And there are no rights.

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frankturek: everything's just a matter of opinion right it's just your opinion against somebody else's opinion.

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frankturek: But anyway, the questions here are the moral questions you get if God why evil obviously a moral question why does God allow certain evils that's another moral question.

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frankturek: The LGBT Q issues are always coming up right that's that has to do with morality and rights, but there are even questions that don't appear to be on the face of them moral questions, but they really are like what about those that have never heard.

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Andy Miller III: Right.

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frankturek: that's actually a moral question because it's somehow alleging that God is immoral if he doesn't get the Gospel to everyone, or why did God send people to hell, he or he or why did God create people he knew would go to hell right that's a moral question.

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Andy Miller III: The question is, it themselves our evidence evident our display a rate that they're stealing from God.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, the questions in themselves depend upon the reality of a creator preserver and Governor of all things.

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frankturek: Right slavery in the old Testaments a moral question canaanites moral question.

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frankturek: Right, these are all moral questions now when an atheist brings any of these up i'll normally ask them well why are those things wrong if there is no God.

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frankturek: Right what by what standard, are you saying i'd say God is immoral because he kills the canaanites where does that come from.

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frankturek: Now, an atheist has no objective standard by which to judge that wrong, but in his heart he knows it is wrong, but innocent people shouldn't die.

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frankturek: Right any fancy canaanites are innocent, even though they're really not right so he's he's asking a question that presupposes a moral standard, so you always have to ask them where's this moral standard come from.

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frankturek: Now, an atheist doesn't really have a moral standard and Objective one, what do you can say is okay well you claim your God is a god of love, why does he killed the canaanites okay that's a fair question to ask a Christian right.

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yeah.

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frankturek: But he doesn't have a moral standard himself what he could say, and this is a fair point, you could say.

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frankturek: Well, look i'm not an atheist i'm a theist, but I think the God of the Bible is not the true God that's a fair position to take right.

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frankturek: You can say now, I can impugn the God of the Bible for what I what I see.

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frankturek: As doing immoral things because I do have a standard the true God just isn't the God of the Bible, the problem is, if you take that position.

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frankturek: Then you've got to deal with all the evidence that the God of the Bible is the true God and that goes right through the resurrection because of Jesus rose from the dead.

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frankturek: he's a firm the Old Testament he's affirmed your way, he says he is your way, he says he's the great I am he's affirming that the things that go on in the Old Testament have to do with judgment they're not they're not immoral uses of force their judgment that's what's going on.

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Andy Miller III: and whatever.

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Andy Miller III: is created, whatever God, they have probably, then, is that their own projection of their own desires of what that God would be.

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frankturek: yeah that's a problem when people say I don't believe in God, you can sometimes asked them what what kind of God don't you believe in.

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frankturek: Right, because after they describe them i'm going to say I don't believe in that kind of God, either.

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Right.

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Andy Miller III: yeah that's a great point now the second chapter, you have talks about reason how reason is something that is taken in itself, then we talked about that a little bit like that the way that we're able to just even make logical moves and universe, but how is reason distinguished from causality.

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frankturek: Well atheists believe that we're just molecular machines that were moist robots why because there's no a material realm everything's just made a molecule So my question is if everything's made a molecules, how do we even reason.

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frankturek: Right, how do we even come to valid conclusions, because if i'm a molecular machine and i'm driven completely by the laws of physics, why should I think anything I think is true.

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frankturek: i'm not reasoning to a valid conclusion, based on the evidence i'm not following the evidence, where it leads i'm following physics right.

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frankturek: Now, nobody said this better than CS Lewis, so let me, let me give you a short quote from Lewis on this because anyways saw this problem, you know 70 years ago and here's how he put it.

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frankturek: he's talking about our minds, and the fact that our our minds and brains are not the same.

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frankturek: But if you're a materialist you think your your mind and brain is the same and there's no intelligence, they gave you your brain here's what he said he says suppose there was no intelligence behind the universe, in that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking.

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frankturek: He says thought is merely the byproduct of some atoms within my skull but, if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true, but if I can't trust my own thinking, of course I can't trust the arguments, leading to atheism and therefore have no reason to be an atheist or anything else.

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frankturek: Unless I believe in God.

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frankturek: I can't believe in thought so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God.

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frankturek: wow boom, I mean you can't say it better than that right.

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Andy Miller III: Right to me I somebody were referred me on to a.

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Andy Miller III: This American life episode, where the whole time they just talked about ants and how amazing ants were and how they they move about the world and.

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Andy Miller III: They were really trying fair, how is it that it can build.

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Andy Miller III: These sophisticated.

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Andy Miller III: colonies and, finally, they had this scientist and that scientists they come up came on and they indicated okay there's there's something that happens.

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Andy Miller III: In the brain there's some movement and out brain whatever whatever it is there's some biological thing that they could trace, but then, then they said, why is that.

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Andy Miller III: Well, we don't know right like we it just there's something happens there it to me, I thought, like what will you go through all of this, all this explanation and you can't physically explain you can't scientifically explain why it is.

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Andy Miller III: Then they build these gigantic colony like, why is that, like.

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Andy Miller III: The way our ability, it like in our Britain even i'm not that i'm like a cognitive scientist, but.

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Andy Miller III: What we don't know about our brain activity is wild the beach and how we can have an opportunity to think about our thoughts, the existence of our conscience that there could be an in material reality that's that to me in itself often points to.

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Andy Miller III: A way to start with conversations with people.

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frankturek: Well, there is an immaterial reality and part of it is just even thinking right because again if you're if we're all just molecules in motion moist robots.

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frankturek: We shouldn't be able to trust our thoughts, but we can trust our thoughts, so if we can't trust our thoughts, we have to reason from that effect back to a cause.

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Andy Miller III: Right.

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frankturek: And if the.

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frankturek: If the cause is just molecules bumping into one another that's not an explanation, the cause is really much is really a mind the reason our minds work is because our mind is made in the image of the great mind.

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frankturek: And without that we shouldn't trust anything we think, but we can trust what we think in fact Andy when people ask me, you know how do you know God exists, I say I know God by his effects.

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frankturek: So that's what scientists do they start with effect they reason back to a cause so if there's a creation and there is that's the effect we've got a reason back to a cause and creator.

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frankturek: If there is design and there is, you have to reason back to a cause of designer there's a moral law written on our hearts and there is, you have to reason back to a cause and moral lawgiver.

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frankturek: If we have the ability to reason and come to valid conclusions, in other words, we have a mind, we have to reason back to a cause a great mind, who gave us disability.

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frankturek: And so we're reasoning from effect to cause and that's what scientists do so, the scientific way of discovering that God exists is your reason from effect back to cause.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, so we hit we hit on some of the other ones, and your crime, so we got see and are the next one we've touched on a little bit to information and intentionality, how is that still employed guy.

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frankturek: But let's talk about it well information has to do with the information in the genome.

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Andy Miller III: Okay.

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frankturek: You know that there's it's 3.2 billion letters long in every cell.

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frankturek: And if I if you are walking along the beach, and you saw on the sand john loves Mary you would immediately go oh there's got to be a mind that did this you wouldn't say the waves made it the crabs made it, you know you'd go through john or Mary did this right.

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frankturek: Right well if john loves Mary requires a mind how about a message that's 3.2 billion letters long.

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frankturek: Right, I mean it requires a mind as well and Stephen Meyer has done the real groundwork on this and his book signature in the cell.

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frankturek: So that's that deals with information and scientists have no idea how information can come from natural laws it can't it repetitive natural laws won't give you information, you need a mind to do that.

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frankturek: And so it's not a God of the gaps argument to say well you know we just haven't find a natural law for this yet.

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frankturek: it's actually you're not arguing from what you don't know, which is what a God of the gaps argument is you're arguing from what you do know so, for example, when you see john loves Mary in the sand.

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frankturek: there's not a gap in your knowledge you don't just lack a natural cause for that you have positive empirically verifiable evidence for and intelligent cause.

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frankturek: john or Mary right.

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frankturek: same thing is true when you see this 3.2 billion letter genome your DNA.

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frankturek: You don't just lack a natural explanation for that you have positive empirically verifiable evidence for an intelligent being.

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frankturek: Now we don't know if this intelligent being is the God of the Bible it doesn't get you all the way to that.

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frankturek: But it couldn't be the God of the Bible that's all we're saying you could you know you Couple this with the cosmological argument, the argument from the beginning of the universe, the fine tuning argument.

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frankturek: The moral argument, the argument from reason we just mentioned and Jesus, rising from the dead, then you realize the same been that walked out of the two 1988 years ago is the same being in whose divine nature, created the universe out of nothing.

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frankturek: But you know you don't get that from one argument you got to add all the arguments up and then you realize.

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frankturek: That Jesus is the creative.

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Andy Miller III: So starting starting from creation just seems to be such a great place to go to.

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Andy Miller III: When you're moving through it's like, why is there something rather than nothing.

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Andy Miller III: Right to me that points even like how we affirm some of the basic claims in scripture One of the interesting thing we've.

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Andy Miller III: we're offering at West the biblical seminary right now, of course, in spiritual warfare and a lot of times, people are very cautious about acknowledging the existence or reality.

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Andy Miller III: Of the demonic and certainly scripture only gives us so much that we can fill that picture up but they're certainly affirming the non physical world affirming the fact that they're the Bible Luton demonstrates this on a regular basis.

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Andy Miller III: But I point back when we've had some pushback on this class I said well you know we say in the apostles creed, you know that we have from the creator and we were talking about a miraculous and when we talk about Jesus being raised from the dead, we talked about creation out of nothing.

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Andy Miller III: that's a pretty that's a pretty strong claim if we can different that that can also then help us those two things that are beyond the physical world of experience and now.

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frankturek: Right, let me say one other thing too about the Ai in crimes.

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frankturek: You mentioned the ants you know why do they do what they do Aristotle could have told them because Aristotle discovered this 2400 years ago not particularly about ants but he noticed that.

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frankturek: All of nature's going in a direction, like, for example, why does an acorn if it's properly nourished always become an oak tree.

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frankturek: You know why does it become an elm tree or a birch tree or a Seahorse right you say well it's programmed to become an oak tree yeah well who programmed it.

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frankturek: And it's an acorn conscious know in a course, not in the ground going all right, what do I have to do to become an oak tree right it's unconscious.

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frankturek: Yet if it reliably goes in a direction and it does and it doesn't have a mind of its own, there must be an external mind directing it toward an end.

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frankturek: And that is what Aristotle, called the unmoved mover mean, as you know, the unmoved mover and aristotle's world wasn't a big bang unmoved mover wasn't a creator like.

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frankturek: He thought mistakenly thought the universe was eternal what Aristotle was saying is that there needs to be a cause a mind cause every single second of existence.

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frankturek: And so, Thomas Aquinas comes along and he says this is going to be my fifth way to argue for God that all of nature is going in a direction well if it's going in a direction, there must be some sort of director right.

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frankturek: natural laws, why are they so orderly and precise and all going in a direction driving things toward an end driving things toward a goal driving things toward What would it both Aristotle and Aquinas would call a final cause.

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frankturek: Because there's a mind behind all this right there's a mind behind nature.

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frankturek: And that mind is what we mean by God, this is why Paul could come along and say you know after Aristotle and say in him we live and move and have our being and Christ holds all things together.

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frankturek: And the writer of Hebrews says God sustains all things by his powerful word right he doesn't just create it and leave it that's Deism he creates it and he sustains it every single second of existence.

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frankturek: Right and and so you could put it this way that God is to the universe, what a band is to music.

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frankturek: Right a band.

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frankturek: creates and sustains the music as it's playing, but once the band stops playing the music's over.

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frankturek: same thing is true with God God creates the university creates the natural laws that drive the university creates us, and he sustains the universe, the natural laws that drive it he sustains us every single second.

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frankturek: And so, if he were to go out of existence, so would we or if he would pull his hand away so would we we wouldn't exist anymore.

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frankturek: So this is an argument that says look even if you want to argue for say macro evolution you're not getting rid of the need for God why.

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frankturek: Right, because the laws that Dr MAC revolution and I don't think macro evolution is true don't get me wrong i'm just saying, for the sake of argument.

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frankturek: Right, the laws that Dr MAC revolution need to cause a sustaining cause and that's what we mean by God wow.

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Andy Miller III: I this the connecting it to move mover one things i've often thought about this sustaining cause is that what I missed in that sometimes is the personal nature of God.

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Andy Miller III: Like that he reveals himself in the person of Jesus, and he is eternally three persons existing in a loving relationship so.

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Andy Miller III: that's all.

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Andy Miller III: Like what i've tried to push away from i'm really glad that I feel like it's a good critique for me and i've been critical of the unmoved mover side of things, at times, because of that, but at the same time, this sustaining cause is so important.

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frankturek: Right well Aristotle didn't have a full or view of God.

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frankturek: And he never got his philosophy and religion, together, he didn't worship the unmoved mover.

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frankturek: He just said there had to be this mind that kept everything going Okay, so you can take what you want from Aristotle Aquinas really baptized Aristotle and.

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frankturek: I think rightfully so in the sense that God is a sustaining cause and that's why the scriptures talk about this right he doesn't just create leave he has to sustain it every minute.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, let's get this we've got to morality and evil real quick science, how is that's that that's an s of your crimes.

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Andy Miller III: How is science stolen by atheist.

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frankturek: Well, for the very reason we just mentioned that that that in order for science to work you have to have an orderly universe.

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frankturek: You have to have natural laws and cause and effect reliable cause and effect and.

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frankturek: That is best explained by mind it's not explained by just molecules bumping into one another, first of all, why did where did the molecules come from, to begin with, and why do they.

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frankturek: Why do they follow a law like pattern, where the laws come from they come from law givers right there's a sustaining cause that keeps everything going and the title of the chapter, by the way, is science doesn't say anything scientists do.

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frankturek: wow and you can just think about it, right now, what, why do we get conflicting advice on coven people will say follow the science and then you got to ask them well which science right.

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frankturek: yeah because science doesn't say a word it's scientists that say things Why do I say that because all data needs to be gathered and all data needs to be interpreted and who does that scientists do that.

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frankturek: Right, the reason we have different advice on coven is because scientists may be looking at different data, and therefore they come to different conclusions or they may be looking at the same data.

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frankturek: and interpreting that data differently or they may have inadequate data and yet still trying to draw conclusions from it.

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frankturek: or there might be a political agenda going on, where which sure seems to me there is right there's just too many contradictory things going on in the whole coven debate that you're going wait wait a minute.

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Andy Miller III: yeah.

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frankturek: Why do you want everybody back vaccinated.

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frankturek: Why are you worried about unvaccinated people if the vaccine protects you from the from the disease, apparently, the vaccine doesn't protect you from the disease right.

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frankturek: Right, because you can still get it, and still pass it.

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frankturek: In fact, quietly I don't know if you've noticed this, but just on September 1 of 2021 the CDC changed their definition of vaccine they got rid of the word immunity now they just say protection because the coven vaccine is not a traditional vaccine it's not like smallpox and polio.

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frankturek: Right it's it's a vaccine that tamps down the symptoms, when you get it apparently but it doesn't prevent you from getting it.

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frankturek: Right or passing it to others, this is why even rhonda Santas in Florida about a month ago, saying.

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frankturek: Why, why do we have 300% more cases of coven a year after this whole thing started when we have a vaccine why why, why is that what.

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frankturek: it's it's it's.

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frankturek: Out of a scene isn't real vaccine right.

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frankturek: yeah polio.

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Andy Miller III: polio vaccine stop polio.

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frankturek: Right right right yeah so I you know i'm not saying don't get a vaccine don't get me wrong i'm simply saying that.

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frankturek: That scientists say things not science and you've got to look at the data they have see if they gathered it correctly see if it's good data and then see if they're interpreting it rightly.

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frankturek: Right and and and and this goes right to the creation evolution debate Andy, as you know, because Why do so many scientists believe.

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frankturek: In macro evolution I submit to you it's not because the evidence shows that it's because they have been taught that.

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frankturek: Because early on, it might appear to have been the case that evolution were true, until we learned a lot more about all the impossibilities that would have to occur for evolution to occur, like you'd have to overcome.

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frankturek: you'd have to overcome irreducible complexity.

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frankturek: DNA would would would create a new body plan, where we know now that's not the case DNA does not create new body plans you need epigenetic information to do this we cover this all in the book, by the way, I know i'm going through technical stuff now.

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frankturek: Also, the fossil record in darwin's day we thought we.

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frankturek: We investigate the fossil record and discover all these transitional forms and he thought that would that would happen well 160 years later we've investigated the fossil record and we still don't have transitional forms.

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frankturek: Certainly not in the number, we would need to say MAC revolutions true so now people think well yeah MAC revolutions true.

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frankturek: And they're starting to realize that there's a lot of problems with it in fact in 2016 they were all society that a gust scientific affiliation out there in the UK which one of their founders of it or one of the initial members of it was Isaac Newton.

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frankturek: 2016 they had a conference where they they said, we need to find a new theory of evolution because Neil Darwinism doesn't work.

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frankturek: We know that mutating DNA and natural selection is not going to give us a new body plan, we need a new naturalistic definition or I should say theory and they all met they didn't come up with a new theory but they know the current theories crumbling.

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frankturek: yeah and so science doesn't say a word scientists say things and that you need you just really need to be aware of that, when a scientist says something or someone on the new says science says we.

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frankturek: Do.

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frankturek: Y or Z right now hold on time out which science and what.

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Andy Miller III: Are they say the science that side.

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Andy Miller III: yeah you know the science, or just not good, science, I like.

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frankturek: Right right.

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Andy Miller III: Are you really reading that literature, so I think that's.

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Andy Miller III: An interesting point now we went to that some fairly technical things there, and you break these things down, and you have a lot of resource that you offer I just love for you to tell people about some of those things that you have available.

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frankturek: yeah well if go to cross examine.org that's the hub and cross examined with a D on the end of it.org and if you go there.

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frankturek: you'll see so many blog articles you'll also see some videos and if you go to our YouTube channel cross examine two words.

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frankturek: you'll see over 1000 short videos some of them are longer to the entire presentation we have up there, and some interviews as well, we have a podcast called I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.

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frankturek: Where we go through some of these once a week it's about a 48 minute podcast and it's on the American family radio network, as you know, we have an APP two words in the APP store cross examine, which has the podcast has the TV show streaming live.

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frankturek: and has a quick answer section on it as well that people can use right off their phone.

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frankturek: yeah so if they go there they'll and they'll get notifications when we're doing a live event because we stream everything live.

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frankturek: We we normally do a show every Thursday night anywhere between seven and nine Eastern.

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frankturek: And then we also when we go on a college campus we stream that as well, so.

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Andy Miller III: advanced training events and things there they can find that all on that way you do it's all there yeah we have a training event every year called CIA cross examine instructor Academy.

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frankturek: where people can learn how to present evidence and how to answer questions, not just for me, but from other apologists In fact this coming year in July it'll be in Cincinnati Ohio.

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Andy Miller III: It moves around okay.

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Andy Miller III: I love love that you're do that and, of course, that Wesley biblical scenario we have we offer an ma in apologetics as well, and we have a whole group there I don't know, maybe we can pull you in as adjunct Professor sometime i'd love to.

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Andy Miller III: buy that and now I want to just kind of personally think about some of the things like I watch these videos and you have you'll have a room full of people like 100 people lined up just to try to nail you and it's an interesting moment like.

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Andy Miller III: god's gifted you in a unique way to be able to handle that pressure to be able to respond charitably but also definitely.

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Andy Miller III: And i'm just curious like in in some of those examples that you've had, could you tell us like one moment that was just beautiful like a.

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Andy Miller III: hopeful story that came there and then maybe one that challenge you one that, like you, weren't quite sure how you're going to respond I just love to hear a.

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frankturek: story or two from those experience well actually uh.

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frankturek: You get a lot of the same questions over and over again it's really not that hard people think it's hard it's not I mean if you if you know the material it's not hard and I think the the primary.

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frankturek: The primary tactic that I mentioned earlier, is just to turn the claim back on itself, because there are so many assumptions Andy underneath the question being asked.

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frankturek: That, if you just question the assumption, then the pressures off you its back on the other person, you know they say if there's a good God, why is there evil What do you mean by evil.

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frankturek: Right, because now you're gonna free suppose the standard of good and if you're presuppose in a standard of good you're back to God right.

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yeah.

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frankturek: Or if they ask a question, you know the Bible is being changed throughout the centuries, what do you mean by that yeah and how did you come to that conclusion, what evidence, do you have for that position.

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frankturek: So you're just turning the claim back on itself now sometimes you get atheists and they get a little vociferous and I always ask them if Christianity were true, would you become a Christian yeah because that again.

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frankturek: throws it back on them to see how open, they are because most of the time they're not open, as I mentioned earlier.

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frankturek: And they can see these interactions on our website, now the good things that happen is we get Christians encouraged and sometimes we get an atheist to who does eventually become a Christian usually not on the spot, but they'll think about it right.

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frankturek: Right and some of the more challenging things are just.

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frankturek: What I think about when when there's some 20 year old kid up and a microphone.

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frankturek: I don't get upset if they're mad or they're angry, because I think look.

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frankturek: Why should I expect some 20 year old kid to agree with me.

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frankturek: You know i'm like 60 now why would I, why would I I didn't I didn't think the way I think now, when I was 20 right.

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frankturek: yeah, so why would, I think this kid should agree with me, I shouldn't so I just try and treat them like anybody else and say Okay, why do you think that's true and why do you believe that.

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frankturek: You shouldn't get mad at people right, in fact, Paul famously said look I was an insolent arrogant man, but Christ showed me mercy right yeah all of us are on some sort of spiritual journey either going toward Jesus or away and we shouldn't expect everybody to be where we are.

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frankturek: Look, we weren't even where we are say 10 years ago right yeah.

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frankturek: So why should we expect everybody to be where we are now we should.

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Right.

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Andy Miller III: But this podcast is called more to the story, and if people look into you and follow you like, I do like my kids know the intro and.

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Andy Miller III: You know your voice like one thing, but.

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Andy Miller III: Is there more to the story of Frank Turk like Is there something you like to do you like to snorkel Is there something kind of unique about frank that others might not know.

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Andy Miller III: Oh, really, the story.

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frankturek: of Frank well have a great wife and three sons and one grandson.

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Andy Miller III: Oh, there you go.

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frankturek: stephanie handles all of this stuff that you see online in terms of books and DVDs and that kind of thing, and she also runs.

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frankturek: Our little university called online Christian courses.com so we we do online courses from you know from our own homes, so if they go to cross examine.org and click on that they'll see that without her I wouldn't be doing any of that.

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frankturek: i'm a runner.

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frankturek: I like to work out, you know I used to run marathons years ago, but not anymore.

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frankturek: And in fact years ago I was in a world record race.

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frankturek: Where are you finished 43 minutes behind Alberto Salazar who set the world record in the marathon but 1999.

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frankturek: I was in the race, I could say I was in a world record event, you know you can't say you know how many people can say that, so you know that's my claim to fame right there you go.

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frankturek: And you are.

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Andy Miller III: You also you're writing a book with your son is that right.

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frankturek: or yeah it's called Hollywood heroes how your favorite movies reveal God it'll be out in April, in fact, right now, today i'm just going through the galleys and making final.

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frankturek: You know minor corrections to it so yeah we're going through stuff we're going through with fun movies, like iron man Captain America Star Wars, you know Batman wonder woman Lord of the Rings you know all that kind of stuff and then showing how you can use those movies, to point to Jesus.

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Andy Miller III: yeah oh man.

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Andy Miller III: I love it well.

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Andy Miller III: Thank you so much appreciate your time and coming on this podcast and.

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Andy Miller III: administrate guys like you and I appreciate you like not letting it seemed like when I said, you know how I admire you why I admire you this one one thing, but also putting it back on me and everybody who's listening like it's not that hard.

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Andy Miller III: And no not if we can't just say oh frank's exceptionally gifted rhetorically.

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Andy Miller III: That will this let him do that.

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Andy Miller III: No, this is our job to like will.

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Andy Miller III: Be contending for the faith once for all delivered to the saints, just like you are so thank you for setting example for us for the resource that you provided and for coming on today.

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frankturek: Thanks Andy thanks for having me good to see you yeah.