Following God's Call with Cindy-Lou Drummond

Major Dr. Cindy-Lou Drummond serves as the Divisional Commander for The Salvation Army in Northeast Ohio. Her path to Salvation Army officership is distinct as she first served as a doctor 15 years before entering ordained ministry. As a single woman, she discusses the importance of same-gender friendship and how people live out a biblical sexual ethic.

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Transcript:

You know there's times, where a lot of people are calling.

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Andy Miller III: For there to be deeper levels of friendships, particularly if people have the same gender, this was something that came about as a result of my conversation with TIM tenant and a part of his book for the body which we've talked about a lot on this podcast.

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Andy Miller III: And today, we have a great example of that in the mid through the Ministry of major Cindy Lou drummond who serves as a leader in the Salvation Army in the eastern territory.

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Andy Miller III: Of the Salvation Army in the United States, I think you're going to find this conversation with major drummond incredibly insightful and helpful and kinda like a prophetic challenge to our time.

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Andy Miller III: To really pursue deep relationships and to find out there's more to the story of people than we kind of we can you imagine at times.

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Andy Miller III: i'm thankful to our sponsors who made this podcast happen and anonymous donor bill Roberts and wp oh development Thank you so much to these folks.

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Andy Miller III: who make this platform possible, and you can, in case you don't know if you go to Andy Miller, the third COM.

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Andy Miller III: that's at Miller II, you can sign up for my email list, and if you go there, you can win whenever you sign up anybody who signs up gets a free link.

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Andy Miller III: That will give you a four page document for people who are preachers and teachers to help develop creative ideas as they execute scripture now there's much more that we could say about preaching.

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Andy Miller III: But this just gives you a tool that I think can help you come to a place of having exegetical material that is presented.

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Andy Miller III: That that helps you then develop creative ideas when you move to a task of actually preaching in writing a sermon.

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Andy Miller III: Okay, also as we move through this process, it really is helpful as we try to develop this Community around the more this story podcast if people can just take a minute.

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Andy Miller III: To like and share this, I also have an author page on Facebook that's that's one way that we're trying to get the word out a little bit more just just Andy Miller, the third author page thanks so much for checking us out and enjoyed this conversation with major Cindy Lou drummond.

welcome to the more to the story podcast i'm glad that you have come along today, and I am delighted to have on with me a friend and basically a family member Cindy Lou.

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Andy Miller III: drummond major Cindy Lou drummond who serves as the division Commander for the neo cell division of Salvation Army and the osa.

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Andy Miller III: stands for the Northeast Ohio Salvation Army somehow they were able to include the Salvation Army in the title of their division there but Cindy loose welcome to podcast.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Thanks Andy it's great to be with you.

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Andy Miller III: Well, I said that we have a family connection your father is somebody known to me as uncle chuck.

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Andy Miller III: So right so we've have had a connection through generations wait, maybe, as we get started, could you just give a short version of the story of how our families got connected.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Sure um my father was a kid in the Court well actually he was a kid in the Community of Warren Ohio and his he was being raised by his grandparents and they owned a tavern.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: And the Salvation Army band came around doing an open air, and he fell in love with the coordinate and your grandmother was an assistant officer there.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: but also your grandfather had some connection with Warren and he my father became a.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Bands men, and in order to play in the band he had to come on Sunday, he got saved and as a kid in the core your father your grandfather.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Connected with him, he said chuck because very few people graduate from high school then chuck if you graduate from high school, you can come and live with me and serve with me.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: So my father, I mean, I think, five years would pass your your grandfather went into the military and then got married to on Joan and.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: The day he graduated he hitchhiked to I think they were in Dover and hitchhike and and knocked on the door and your grandmother answered the door and said, you know hi how you doing my father, with his suitcase and he said well i'm here.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: move in and your grandfather never told your grandmother.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: When my father remembered that promise and so that started the Dover days which were the glory days and that's what we would hear all the time, was what was happening in Dover and delivers a small community but it exploded under Andy and john Miller.

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Andy Miller III: And uncle chuck so.

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Andy Miller III: As it.

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Andy Miller III: interesting thing that happens is like imagine like it did at this phase, probably like the 40s and there is it like my grandparents would have just probably in their late 20s early 30s and all of a sudden here's this 18 year old kid i'm moving in.

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Andy Miller III: You said I could come so there it.

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Andy Miller III: Is and then it.

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Andy Miller III: lives on now even to this day.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: yeah exactly and a funny story when when your grandmother was pregnant with to.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Your grandfather had gone to the international youth Congress in London, so my father was staying with her and she went into Labor and my father took her to the hospital and they said, are you, the father and he said no, I just live with her.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: stories.

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Andy Miller III: It would have been different, you know her differently, these days, of course.

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Yes.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: You.

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Andy Miller III: know what, if I have a couple reasons I wanted to have you on the podcast is that you have a unique story now see people who are watching on YouTube.

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Andy Miller III: will see you in your Salvation Army uniform and I described you as a Salvation Army officer with the rank of major and you serve as a divisional commander in northeast Ohio.

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Andy Miller III: But your path to Salvation Army officer ship is unique and it starts, because you, you are on a trajectory a wholly different from Salvation Army ministry so would you tell us a little bit about that, and like what led you.

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Andy Miller III: To the medical profession and then how that led you to Salvation Army.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: yeah well in a in a roundabout way, I always knew I was going to be a Salvation Army officer he felt called from childhood.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: To be a Salvation Army officer and I had a pivotal moment when I was 12 we used to do self denial in gatherings where we would bring.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: The money that we've raised over the course of a year for missions, and it was actually here in Cleveland when my folks were stationed here, I was 12 years old, we had brigid her doctor noble from Katherine booth hospital.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, yes.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: And the thing that intrigued me about him was that he did not have an arm.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: And I later learned that because.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: X Ray was used indiscriminately and they didn't use lead aprons and they didn't have the precautions back then.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: He had gotten cancer in his shoulder and they amputated his arm and you know he's a surgeon had given his life to the to India to the Lord and that just spoke to me, and at that moment I don't think it was romanticizing it, but I really I sense that that was what God had for me.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: And so it started me thinking about medicine and just so at 12 i'm thinking about my educational career how i'm going to get to Medical School.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: And that was always the plan I go to Medical School I go to training college and i'd be a missionary.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Okay, and so.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: went through asbury a graduate from high school i'm not i'm not a great student.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: But I would say that I am a persevere and i'll i'll work as hard as I can to get what what I need to do so, went through asbury and.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: ended up that I was on the waiting list for two medical schools and it's very common that many people are on waiting lists and as openings come because people are now admitted to the other medics there's a vacancy and I had determined that.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: i'd go to whatever school took me first that's that felt that that was the lord's leading and it happened to be the Philadelphia college of osteopathic medicine, which is a very unique.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: thing in America is that we have osteopathic medicine very was misunderstood.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: For many years, but now is.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: is equal par to the allopathic route, which is the md.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: So I went through Medical School on always with that goal that when I i'm done i'm going to the training college, and of course bills add up, and of course I had to work a little bit to pay that off, but eventually I was in practice in saginaw Michigan and an underserved area.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: and love that.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: And then.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: was my parents retired I moved to Lancaster Pennsylvania in a practice and that brought me I graduated in 1986 did my residency and then in 2001 went to the school for roster train.

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Andy Miller III: wow that's 15 years after you graduated.

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Andy Miller III: yeah so um it's quite a journey to get there now, could you just give it a kind of a bird's eye view of the difference in the two understandings of.

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medicine.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Basically, Western medicine is Western medicine.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: When it comes to md or do there are some basic things that are very much the same as matter of fact, many of the.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: osteopathic schools have coupled with empty schools allopathic schools and they offer osteopathic manipulation to the md students, where it's part of the of the curriculum for a deal.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: The understanding is that we're not just disease of like if your gallbladder is sick it's not just that it affects the rest of your body so it's a very holistic.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: way of looking at health and so because of let's say you have a sick gallbladder you may have pain in your back you may have difficulty breathing you may have.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: referred pain and osteopathic manipulation is to help alleviate that in treating the whole person not denying that the gallbladder sick taking care of that but also using osteopathic manipulation to alleviate other stressors from that sick gallbladder.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: We use it's probably not used quite as much as it was at one time and many osteopathic physicians do not incorporate manipulation or osteopathic.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: osteopathic principles in their practice, but there are some very good techniques that help to encourage healing and one of the things I remember most about my osteopathic training years is that the human touch is healing in itself.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: And if you go to a doctor today many times you're not even touched.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: I noticed that, as I take my parents to to see their doctors, but an osteopath will always put hands on you and I think there's something very significant about that so that's that's basically the difference, I did a an allopathic residency.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Okay.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: I belong to an allopathic academy academy FM with practice, but so it's very interchangeable and you won't even.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: realize that somebody said, do until you see maybe do on their on their white coat.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: I think about one of my classmates.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Charlie Sophie I don't know if you ever watch Dr phil but Charlie Sophie is now like a Hollywood psychiatry.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Okay he's featured but he was a classmate of mine i'm like wow that's really great.

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Andy Miller III: interesting.

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Andy Miller III: I need to get caught up on Dr phil I guess I.

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Andy Miller III: don't know I don't know that name, but some people i'm sure do something.

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Andy Miller III: So you did it for 15 years and now all long were you focused on still that that calling you felt that 12.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, okay.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: very much.

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Andy Miller III: What happened, how did that, then I mean that that seems like a long time to wait to do what you are feeling called to do tell me.

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Andy Miller III: about that.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Well, you know I think there's a mindset and I remember.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Dr Burry bon who was at asbury his was a doctor, he was, I think his mom was with w GM I can't remember exactly which mission group but.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: He had been a missionary and I remember going to one of their evening programs and him saying.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: You know people think Medical School so expensive i'm not going to do it because it costs too much, he said, but God who provide what you need and it's it's a path that you're called to, and so you just every day is a learning experience every day is something.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: New and so you just.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: You just do it.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: And so, even though it seemed like it was a long time to get to the end point.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: It really was a ministry for me, and I think that's the.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: The greatest thing about it it's um it's a ministry medicine is Ministry.

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Andy Miller III: amen so in was that, in part, did you wait, in part because you had to pay off the debt to.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Yes, yeah I thought, a big obligation to.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Make sure that I went into the Salvation Army without having them have to relieve me of my loans or anything like that this was my degree, this is my gift that the Lord had given me that I paid back, and so I I felt very, very needful to do that yeah.

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Andy Miller III: Interesting so did did you end then go to serve as a missionary at first what's or was that something that you're able to do in another country.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Well um it's very interesting and my training years my last two months, well, you have elective time in your fourth year of medical school and I actually went to Catherine booth college or Catherine booth hospital in Niagara coil and got to see where Dr noble.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Were lived they lost a child there.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: And there's actually.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: A surgical block called the noble block, so it was like a wonderful experience and if I had had the opportunity, I would have said.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: i'm saying this is it this I love it here.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: But I had to go back and graduate I had.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: I think I went in November and December, so I still had six months to go.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: But um excuse me.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: I.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: I did go to Zambia as a medical resident, because I was in Michigan and that division Eastern Michigan had a reserve that you could go.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: and relieve or help and admission country for a couple of weeks and Eastern Michigan division paid for, so when to Zambia thinking that's probably where I would go chicken kata.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Right um when I was commissioned as an officer in 2015 now i'm sorry 2005 2005.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: I was appointed as a core officer with the understanding that in a few years, I could do missionary service um.

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Andy Miller III: And this is not those who are not connected this Salvation Army, this is not a common.

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Andy Miller III: route for somebody to get a medical degree and then go into Salvation Army officer ship, I mean there's been I can only just think of.

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Andy Miller III: A couple of people who've done this through the years, and so this is in the Salvation Army has it has its way and you're part of the executive, you make that happen you execute that mission that way, but this is stepping outside of the ordinary path of a savage army officer.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: yeah yeah but I love being a corps officer to I mean it was it was wonderful.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: And well i'll have to tell you about that some other time but oil city wasn't able to practice medicine, but the connection we actually put together a dental clinic.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: In oil city as.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Because of the connections that we had with the hospital in the health department, but.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: So, after the three years at a core I was appointed to Zimbabwe now I had warned them that the osteopathic degree was not.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: accepted in all countries.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Okay, believing that they understood that or read that.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: And they appointed me to Zimbabwe at first, I read it, and I said i'm going to Zambia.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: And then I read it again, I said no i'm going to Zimbabwe, which I was very excited about because I I when I went to Zimbabwe or to Zambia, I was able to visit Zimbabwe, so it was I was very excited about that.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: But I didn't know the kind of trouble, I was going to have once I got there and they did not recognize my degree, even though my friend, Dr Martha Jensen, who we did the same residency Program.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Both members of the AMA both members of the American Academy of family practice.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: She got her license right away, and I kept getting deferred and get to getting deferred and getting deferred.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: To the point that.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Eight months almost eight months later.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: They didn't have a place for me they weren't going to license me so that was one of the greatest disappointments.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: of my life yeah.

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Andy Miller III: So you got me so i've been in a place where.

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Andy Miller III: This this had been the goal for decades.

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Andy Miller III: And now you're finally there and because there was a misunderstanding of what your degree was not able to serve as.

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Andy Miller III: yeah felt led.

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Andy Miller III: What happened in.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Well, it was decided that come back to the States and.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: was appointed to the training college, as the training college doctor.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Okay, was like a double edged sword.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: You think it would be a really good thing you know because oh wow all the cadets could have free medical care and.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: But the cadets I believe so, it has an invasion of privacy and and and didn't see it as the benefit that and at that time there was a lot of discussion about week management, which also is a very touchy subject with all.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Right so um, so I think it had a double edge we it was interesting that.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: There were a few really serious cases that we were able to manage and help the cadets through.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: So we're thankful for that, but it was it was an interesting experience.

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Andy Miller III: So when you came back you went to a training school where did what happened after that, with as far as your various appointments in the Salvation Army.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Well, I was at least four years as the medical director at the training college and there was a shift in leadership.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: As the assistant training principal and I was appointed as the assistant training principal for two years and then from there, I was appointed as the divisional Secretary in New Jersey, then for one year of General Secretary and then here I am.

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Andy Miller III: wow Now this is interesting path now, I want to, I want to come back to what what you're doing now in a leadership role in the Salvation Army, and that is.

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Andy Miller III: A unique path toward in Salvation Army officer ship but there's also something unique about your story, and you brought up Martha the other doctor your friend Now this is.

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Andy Miller III: A unique part of like what people would know about you in our society, we just we do not have categories, because of the way the sexual revolution has impacted our society.

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Andy Miller III: for developing true same gender friendships and I think what's happened in my view, if you a Martha is something that we've called like we've been calling board for a long time, but unfortunately society just is unable to see it very clearly.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: So.

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Andy Miller III: You have a lifelong friendship that has happened with Martha.

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Andy Miller III: And a lot of times, I imagine, this has led to.

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Andy Miller III: Challenging conversations, where people make assumptions so i'd love for you to talk about the nature of that type of friendship.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Sure well i'll go back to when I was doing my residency Martha was already an attending physician and part of the educational program in the residency.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: And once a week, we would sit she was in charge of the residents we'd said we discuss cases and I just got to know her on a personal level, because she was going through.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Something very, very challenging and that was that her twin brother had HIV and now this is.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: aidan.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Okay, so we're talking about the very beginnings of HIV awareness and there was still a lot of fear about HIV and not a lot of good treatments and Martha was.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: going to be with her twin brother in Detroit who had purchased old houses like you could get houses for a couple hundred dollars in Detroit and he was renovating these beautiful homes.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: And, in the midst of that he got very ill and she was trying to help him to accomplish his goal of of restoring these homes.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: So she would leave work on Friday spend the weekend, with him, working in the houses drive back late Sunday night and be back in in the office on Monday well.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: I was in a delivery and she was my supervisor in the delivery Labor and delivery and she passed out and it is with Dr Jensen what's wrong with Dr Jensen and it led to a conversation she was just burnt out.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: She was just.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Totally burnt out, so I got to the point that mark was very ill he had a lymphoma of the brain, which is common with this type of a condition and he couldn't take care of himself anymore and mark.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Martha wanted him to live with her like this point Martha was not a Christian she had gone to church, she was Presbyterian and had.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: heard about Jesus, but never, never connected that you have to have a personal relationship with him so in the process of our our conversations and her wanting to bring him but trying to figure out how can I take care of him at home by myself.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: I said, you know I could help you I was, I was chief resident of the residency program, which meant that I made the schedule, which meant that I could.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: really work it, however, would benefit because she still had to carry on her duties.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: And, and so it was that mark came to live with Martha and she opened her home to me, which actually benefited me too, I was a little bit closer to the hospital, so it worked out very well, so he was not left alone, and he deteriorated and eventually died.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: And it wasn't.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Until a little bit after that that Martha really realized the price God paid and sending Christ, for her, and so I wasn't even involved in that actual moment.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: It was actually in the.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Car but.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: She turned her life over to Christ.

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amen.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: So i'm sorry.

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Andy Miller III: No it's great I haven't heard this story.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: and

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: She wanted to be as a business.

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hmm.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: So we went to the core in saginaw.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: It was just a beautiful.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Beautiful time because she was like a blank sheet of paper didn't know anything.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Right and God did a wonderful work.

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Andy Miller III: wow so so this guy in this position where like in like in ministry, since you are serving a friend and a colleague.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: yeah.

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Andy Miller III: And you've gotten this situation where it's just like okay well Lord here I am I have been in this is a part of martha's conversion so she comes to.

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Andy Miller III: us as a result of this hospitality that you're able to show toward one another.

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Andy Miller III: And that that then just lead to like a friendship that you all have that has continued to this day.

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Andy Miller III: I needed to I would say.

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Andy Miller III: Partner I don't know it, though, the word.

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Andy Miller III: The words don't come.

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Andy Miller III: easily.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: So how me.

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Andy Miller III: know and i'll say maybe i'll give you a second, because I know.

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Andy Miller III: I growing up in the Salvation Army my parents were a divisional use Secretary for years, so we would we traveled.

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Andy Miller III: Three divisions and two in Michigan and then in indiana and I remember occasionally we would go and this so i'm old enough.

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Andy Miller III: Like so this has been like the late 80s early 90s, where we go to a place, we often stay in the homes of savagery mobster I remember a couple of course we go through particularly like a little smaller towns.

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Andy Miller III: There was two single women officers who are serving and they would they had lived out their callings together through the years in the Salvation Army recognize that as a single way I guess it could have happened single men too, but in those days, they would just move them around together.

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Andy Miller III: And there was a great.

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Andy Miller III: team teamwork that came and there was no assumption that this was any sort of like living out of a lesbian relationship or anything like that.

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Andy Miller III: So anyways that's a little bit of history until.

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Andy Miller III: that's not been a common practice.

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Andy Miller III: Lately, but that was basically.

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Andy Miller III: It was is that yeah happen you guys.

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Andy Miller III: Just formed a friendship that was able to serve as I come a life partner.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: yeah well you know it's I really because of the way our culture is and using that term partner, I wish that there was another word but there really isn't I mean it's a it's an association we're friends it's a sacred friendship, but as far as i'm concerned and.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: It it's not a sexual relationship.

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Andy Miller III: Oh, we just I just lost you.

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Andy Miller III: record again.

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Andy Miller III: Okay.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: yeah yeah um I really don't like the word partner, because of the connotation in our culture right.

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Andy Miller III: Oh no.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: yeah.

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Andy Miller III: And 321 yeah.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: I don't like that word partner, because of the connotation in our culture, but.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: it's it's an association and there's not a sexual relationship at all, but we build on each other's strengths, which is and where one has a weakness, the other has a strength, I think that that's something that we just don't see anymore with.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Any kind of relationship even sometimes in marriages I don't see that.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Right um I think.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: This this team ministry, it has been so important as Martha and I even in medical practice we had never practiced together, other than resident.

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And attending physician.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: So we've never been in the same medical practice, but there are things that I know Martha is so much better at doing than I am, and I go to her, will you read this ekg with me and make sure that i'm not missing something.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Because that's our kind of thing.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: In the same way, it was in the core she was very much hands on practical ministry, I was very program oriented and and preaching was really my thing and, and so we shared the pulpit in a course situation.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: But I knew that I could leave all the day to day things with the food management, the facility itself everything Martha was all over that it got her she's a Martha you know she.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: really is a biblical Martha.

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Andy Miller III: yeah she.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: wants she's busy.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: And and i'm probably a Mary I would rather sit at the feet of Jesus and just take it all in so.

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Andy Miller III: sure.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: And that's just kind of how it's always been so you're right the our culture today has made it very difficult going to that first appointment, even before that going to the training college.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: yeah I know the territory thought they were doing a great thing, but they interviewed us, we were the first candidates to be accepted for this particular session and we.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: We had this interview, and as soon as we got to the training college in September several people came up so you know what is your relationship, are you guys lesbians, what is.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: The same thing at the first appointment, it was in western Pennsylvania cultures, maybe a little bit different there but.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Just couldn't believe that people would outright say that to our faces.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Knowing that we're Salvation Army officers, knowing what the doctrine of the Salvation Army now, I imagine, people do live a secret life, I mean, I think we know that.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: People leave.

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But.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: That was not our case and that it made it very, very awkward at a time, but it's one of those things you just have to let it go, you know who you are, this is the truth, this is how i'm living and.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: pray that people's perceptions don't close her eyes to what God has to say so.

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Andy Miller III: Right, I think it's so clear when you're when you get to connected to someone we when i've interacted with you, through the years.

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Andy Miller III: That that's the nature of your relationship to me.

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Andy Miller III: But nevertheless, like that the question is still there and I remember saying to my parents like when I first met you a Martha.

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Andy Miller III: Well, what How does that work and my parents were very close to their friends their friends in the end they share things together it's it's.

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Andy Miller III: helpful to have somebody who shares expensive with and, like the team approach to life in general, how, how do you try to, and I imagine there might be some other people.

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Andy Miller III: Who could be encouraged by this, who have a similar type of relationship, but in our time it's just it almost like.

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Andy Miller III: Our culture wants this to stop that from happening, and once you soon, do you try to get in front of it, or you just wait for people ask you questions it's so I imagine so hard.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: yeah it's one of those things that.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Some people don't talk about.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: I know that there were some rumors at the training school and we took swift action to discuss it and say no, this is not what it and trying to nip that in the bud.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: But people like people are going to be people they're going to think in a very always thinking, the worst instead of the best of people.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: we've had a few women who have come out of the training college that have had similar type of relationship of friendship.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: That are they work so well together they know and how much better, is it as a Salvation Army officer to know that.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: The person that's working with you, you don't have to worry about all the drama and all the other things you know them, you know how you can work together and see efficient it's it's for the kingdom it works so.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: On occasion it's usually if people ask and help at the training school had a little different role because we speak into people's lives more openly there.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: But.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: yeah I I guess I kind of wait for something to be said, or happen to address it yeah but there's no sense in getting angry about it, you know it's just people don't understand and I was so thankful that you spoke with Dr tenant and that he mentioned that.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: yeah about.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: About friendships and I actually bought his book, after listening to that podcast.

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Andy Miller III: How could.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: I think it's it's so important and people people don't want to invest in other people as a friend, I feel like Martha is my peer but at one point I was a peer mentor.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: To her spiritually.

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Andy Miller III: For sure.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: She is an encourager to me.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: And I think that that's one of the great things about having a friend like that that understand you understand where you're coming from encourages you can be very honest with you.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: yeah in a way that you, you take and respect and aren't offended by that so.

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Andy Miller III: Well, I hope that this can be an encouragement to people to pursue.

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Andy Miller III: same gender friendship it's, it is a challenge to not have even in in public, last week I was at Association for biblical higher education conference in Orlando there's a colleague from another university, we were working on a.

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Andy Miller III: On a partnership within our within our two institutions, so we had two meals together, and here we are, dressed up going out to eat.

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Andy Miller III: And you know both of us our wives and our children are at home, but I did have the thought several times, oh people might be looking at us like as if we are in a same sex relationship.

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Andy Miller III: In a sexual relationship, and I was frustrated by that i'm like I can't even sit down and have a meal now i'm not I nobody came up to me and said set set anything but unfortunately that's where we are, as a society but that shouldn't prevent.

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Andy Miller III: The good that can come when what we know to be true in our hearts when things are still within the boundaries that God has laid out.

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Andy Miller III: For friendship like it if it's not if it's not violating god's boundaries let's go for it, and this is a way to enrich our lives i'd love for you anything else you want to say about the spiritual friendship.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: um you know I look back now now Martha and I have shared living arrangements for all these years i'm really.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: A 3030 plus years.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: I think and and for the last 10 years my parents have been living with us, and my parents retired officers, but my father had a traumatic brain injury.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: My mom lost her vision within months of him having this.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: traumatic brain injury and they are dependent on us so 10 years there 90 in their 90s now and I could not work if Martha wasn't with me.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: She retired two years ago.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: And she has been really the glue to help keep the household going she they are her parents spiritually.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: yeah funny story when she was doing her candidates papers for training when it put down when it says your name or your father she put my father's name down.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: wow she said I just wasn't even thinking.

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Andy Miller III: Because it's been like a father to me so.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: But her own parents died soon after her twin brother.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: died actually within six weeks of each other so she.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: She went through a quite a bit of trauma at that very beginning.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: So my family has become really a family, for her and in the midst of this, but I think it's so important, we need each other.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Where I helped her many years ago she's helping me now she had a hip replacement the other week.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: i'm here for her you know.

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Andy Miller III: yeah.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: it's hard thinking about being a single person and doing some of the things that you have to do.

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Andy Miller III: When you have so badly.

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Andy Miller III: yeah.

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Andy Miller III: Our society is built for these type of relationship that I think that mirrors and part.

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Andy Miller III: Of god's very nature God is love God exists as try Yun and if that's the case like these.

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Andy Miller III: Relationships were met, not to be alone in part of the challenge within the Salvation Army, I think, is that we have in the United States at least I can speak to that.

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Andy Miller III: That our model for Salvation Army officer ship really is built on the team model.

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Andy Miller III: There, there is an in part, all that has to happen in a field appointment or then in the divisional appointments and territorial appointments follow the same assumption that the compensation model is based upon a team.

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Andy Miller III: husband and wife team, the responsibilities in an appointment like you outlined the things that you all did an oil city I, this is, in part, the challenge like there's not.

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Andy Miller III: As a zone or a slot for single ministry, as I may have i'm sorry it's it's it's that really helped me it helped me articulate that.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: yeah um.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: there's so much work to be done.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: I mean, I find that even here in my position is divisional commander, this should be a married couple.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Empty kind of position.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: I am not only the divisional commander but i'm also the the women's divisional women's ministries Secretary.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: leader.

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Andy Miller III: I don't know, President you.

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Andy Miller III: know.

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Andy Miller III: I always think it's kind of funny how it's like.

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Andy Miller III: World president or something.

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Andy Miller III: That was my aunt when she was in that job.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Right right yeah well i'm not that high yet.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: But.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: yeah I think that there's a benefit to that even the kind of work that we do that requires discussion that it's not one person's at this at this level, not one person's decision.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: It really should be talked through and having a partner.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: To do that now I use my staff to participate in decision making, but and that's that's just the way I lead, but there are people that.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: would just probably consult their their wife or their spouse, but yet they're just really there are many single people in a core setting.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: But they cannot do it alone, and if they don't have the local officers or community leaders or even employees to come, alongside them.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: It is a daunting task for them to to lead and and live and move because we have to have relationship with God, we have to have that time and some are so overwhelmed.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: That that's, the first thing that goes and they don't have friendships they don't make connections in the Community, the most successful single people I know.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: In a core setting or in the Salvation Army have outside connections, they have friends and you need to have friends.

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Andy Miller III: yeah, this is the challenge that comes is that if we.

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Andy Miller III: And i'm not i'm not suggesting it needs to be changes made in Salvation Army, because I think that that's part of the strength.

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Andy Miller III: of what has happened that there is this assumption of the married couple or a bit of a team approach.

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Andy Miller III: But it takes and you would know this to like working as a division commander putting people into appointments and being a part of the appointment process it takes thinking about what type of situation in context you're putting somebody into.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Absolutely yeah that that goes into it and then how can we support them if they're going in as a single person, how can I support them do I get a candidate intern do I get someone that that will really give them what they need, while they're in that appointment it's tough it's tough.

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Andy Miller III: Well, so now you're you're serving this role as a divisional commander, and I imagine that that back when you heard Dr noble.

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Andy Miller III: And it when you're 12 years old, you were thinking okay i'll serve as a missionary somewhere and now you're responsible for.

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Andy Miller III: A whole division operation and officers and staff and development and Cleveland and all these type of things, what are some of the things you're learning in your appointment now.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Well, I i'm learning that it's very pastoral that and everybody has said you're the pastor to the pastors and I love that part of it, one of the new things that we've started in this division is officer development and, although I don't directly.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: lead that program I I am included in it and we've taken our our officers to try to help them to grow and to learn.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: and not get stagnant and that's you know we've got the five year program for the new lieutenants and there they've got a connection with asbury for a degree program but.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: learning should keep going, and they should grow their people should grow and discipleship has been really the key theme that i've wanted to express to this division and I think this is one of the ways to do it so being the pastor to the pastors I love that.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Hard parts are discipline and correction that's that's always a very difficult thing but it's different than what I thought it would be, and I think covert has influenced that, to some degree in a way i'm glad for that, because.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: The schedule just get so stressed out, and I know i'm hearing that from the officers, there were so many events so many and so maybe this pause was a good reset for us.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: I.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: There are so many things that i'm learning I just go.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Just about people.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: About leaping and i've.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: i'm glad, for it it's a it's a good thing up.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: I think people have an idea oh.

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Okay.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: yeah.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Okay, I hope, it's not my Internet there but.

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Andy Miller III: i'm gonna see see if I can figure out where we are i'll just see if I can time it out.

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Andy Miller III: Okay i'll just make a note here that we need to.

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Andy Miller III: Let me jump in here i'll jump in I think will be fair, I can ask a question to get us going and then out to finish up finish up.

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Andy Miller III: So Cindy Lou when you think about where things are in the Salvation Army and it's mirrored in other denominations other denominations that particularly I think about in the western tradition that will evangelical denominations.

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Andy Miller III: What do you think the challenges are for us and how do we face those I mean obviously that's a big question but you're right on the front lines.

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Andy Miller III: Dealing with dozens of Salvation Army officers who are dealing with co vague the sexual revolution challenges from all sorts of fronts, but what is it what is.

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Andy Miller III: what's the way you can encourage us today.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Well, I think, culture is one of our greatest issues we are one foot in culture and one foot in the Salvation Army.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: passionate mission and.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: We can't be divided like that I think this is one of those things and I hear you say this over and over again and i'm with you 100%, we have to be grounded in scriptures or first doctrine, we have to believe that that's really where we are and when we have doubt in that.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Security in that foundation then Salvation Army officer ship should not be entertained we we've got the 100% in, and I think the life of self sacrificing life that's really what we buy into as Salvation Army officers.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: But I would encourage people that we can I mean it's very true, we can be in the world, but we don't have to be of the world, and I think this is one of the things that we have to really get that mindset of Christ that.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: We are to be serving we are to be totally dedicated to him and.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Let him take care of us rather than us trying to think it out and and work it out so to our benefit.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: We trust him with our plans with trust and obey I think those are the.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: biggest things that we trust and obey.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: And I I am challenged by what's happening in the in the world, especially the sexual revolution I i'm so discouraged by what is happening in the Salvation Army.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: That we've gone away from what we know and what we believe, and what the scripture says and we're trying to fit it into what we want, or what we think we should be doing or what the culture is doing what's really what it speaks to.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: And I think that's that's our challenge.

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Andy Miller III: it's so what's the answer I mean you're you're at an executive level where you see it from a different seat now and i'm outside of all ships serving as a soldier.

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Andy Miller III: But what's the answer.

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Andy Miller III: For this arbitrary at this stage when there's.

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Andy Miller III: competing interests like there's I was i've said there's mixed messages like there's.

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Andy Miller III: Totally the Salvation Army that are saying no, we can we can interpret scripture different where the or scriptures not the authority anymore my experience governs this, how are we going to handle this moment.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: yeah we may have to take a step back, we may lose people we may have to refine.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: But if we are true to our mission, I think that.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Those that just are not on board, whether.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: We sometimes have to cut with a knife and and I think that that's kind of a harsh thing to say, but there are other denominations.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: That may be.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: better suited for some people.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: But the body my mind just goes around in circles about this because it's god's word and if we try to look for something else to to make us feel good about what we're thinking and what we believe, but it's not spiritually based you lost.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: So it's.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: You know I say find another denomination but really why not get right with the Lord and.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: get it get the point and surrender I think surrender is the biggest thing.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: You know I think we have to obey we've and in obedience, we have to surrender I told you that discipleship is really my theme.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: And I feel because I don't think that I was disabled well as a younger person, there were good things, but I I wish I had no more earlier.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: I wish that there was an investment, although you know you've got your parents and family investing but just for somebody really investing in me and disciple in me I think that's just so important and.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: The word says that we are to take up our cross daily to follow him if we're going to be a true disciple take up our cross daily, and that means surrendering our will every single day and that's our emotions our sexual feelings are our everything.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: We surrender our will.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Our wants.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: or desires and that's what being a true disciple of Jesus is, and I think we've allowed it to mean something else and.

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Andy Miller III: Oh great this is so good, I mean it's also because because anybody who's listening to you talk right now here's the compassion here's the sympathy, at the same time, but also the truth.

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Andy Miller III: So often like we're not willing to say what was true cuz we don't want to hurt somebody's feelings or we don't want to be in a place where we're going to have to.

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Andy Miller III: Have a difficult conversation, but you even saying like it might need to be a cut with a knife but, but you immediately you didn't back off of it, you said, but I hope for surrender I hope for wholeness I hope for discipleship.

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Andy Miller III: Now some people would say Oh well, you're you're just asserting your way, but I think those who know like can hear the heart that you're speaking with.

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Andy Miller III: and know that this is like the way that we're committed to the principles that have united us already so I love that you want to add anything else to that before we finish up.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: I just believe that that God raised up the Salvation Army, I have no doubt about that, and we have a purpose, when we dilute.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Our mission dilute who we are our identity.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: We lose what God has called us to do, and we need an uprising of devoted disciples in the Salvation Army, we are an army to fight sin.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Yes, what we do and what comes out of that is the love and the compassion and the food and the housing and all of those things, but we can't, we have to keep what's primary primary.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Yes, and I think that's just so important, so I, I am a salvation is through and through and I, and I love the mission of the Salvation Army and it does grieve me when when we try to deviate from who we are we've got to really be have a solid identity.

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Andy Miller III: amen well and i'm excited to know that you're going to be representing your territory at the International sexuality symposium that's going to happen.

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Andy Miller III: In Singapore, I know about this, because it, how it worked was that they every territory would nominate a couple of people.

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Andy Miller III: Various age ranges I think they could dominate three and not everybody's going to be chosen, I was nominated but not chosen there it is that, but I was called but not chosen but.

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Andy Miller III: But you are nominated and chosen, and I know, several other people who have been chosen to participate across at least from the United States.

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Andy Miller III: And i'm so glad that you'll be able to hopefully i'm not sure what the format of that discussion will be for the Salvation Army, but you'll be able to articulate this which is.

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Andy Miller III: kind of like a theme that's come through on this podcast it's not something that I want to talk about all the time, but it's what the culture is throwing at us is what the.

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Andy Miller III: The challenges within the system of various denominations is throwing at us so it's it's impart what we have to speak to this is this is our moment and Cindy Lou i'm so glad that your perspective will be there and.

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Andy Miller III: And also i'm thankful that you're serving in the appointment that God has given you with the gifts that he's given you through the years serving as a doctor and the medical field and now an administrative role so thanks so much for taking time to come on the podcast.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: It means a lot to me.

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Andy Miller III: Thank you, oh I forgot my question more just story question so Is there more to this story.

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Andy Miller III: That we didn't get today.

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Andy Miller III: That is something you like to do or something that people don't often know about you.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: um.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: well.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: I think people know that I am a dog lover.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Okay, but big dog lover.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: And I my my to English masters both died last year.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: And I got a golden doodle.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: who's a medium golden doodle he's cute.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: But I am a dog lover I probably be a now working in a dog show or something if I know that's not true.

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Andy Miller III: yeah golden doodle we have a bunch of our neighborhood all they're so beautiful.

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Andy Miller III: yeah what's your golden duels name.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: rusty it goes with his color he's arrested color.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: But.

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Andy Miller III: Well, thanks so much for coming on Cindy Lou it's been a blessing.

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Cindy-Lou Drummond: Thanks Andy appreciate it.