For the Body with Dr. Tim Tennent
February 17 2022
Too often Christians are known by what they are against, particularly as we work through the challenges of the sexual revolution. On today’s podcast, Tim Tennent helps change the conversation to describe what we are for. What is it that Christians are for? We are For the Body! Dr. Tennent takes a little time with me to discuss his book. Here are the links:
YouTube - https://youtu.be/_03D4P82TU0
A FREE RESOURCE FOR MINISTRY – By signing up for my email list, you can get a four-page PDF document - A Guide for Exegetical Preparation for Preaching and Teaching. Sign up here.
You can find out more about Dr. Tennent and this book at https://timothytennent.com
AND a new article
I wrote an article for a new magazine called The Salvation Soldier. My article, “A United Army in a Difficult Time,” can be found here - https://files.ctctusercontent.com/c9aca873801/f828f370-fb15-4692-9d63-dafff17c2ff6.pdf?rdr=true
Today’s episode is brought to you by two sponsors:
Bill Roberts is a financial advisor, who has been serving the retirement planning and investment needs of individuals, families, non-profits, and churches for 25 years. He is a Certified Financial Planner and accredited investment fiduciary. Bill specializes in working with Salvation Army employees and officers by helping them realize their financial goals.
You can find out more about Bill’s business at www.WilliamHRoberts.com
Wesley Biblical Seminary - Interested in getting going deeper in your faith, check out our certificate programs, B.A., M.A.s, M.Div., and D.Min degrees. You will study with world-class faculty and the most racially diverse student body in the country. www.wbs.edu
For the King!
Dr. Andy Miller III
00:00:01 Andy Miller III
This is the more to the story podcast with Doctor Andy Miller.
We hope you guys enjoy today's conversation.
00:00:08 Andy Miller III
You are in for a treat today and it's not because anything I've done.
00:00:12 Andy Miller III
I am so thankful that I have opportunity to share this podcast with you with Doctor Tim Tennent as my guest.
00:00:18 Andy Miller III
He was with us at Wesley Biblical seminaries.
00:00:20 Andy Miller III
We hosted a series of.
00:00:21 Andy Miller III
Classes in Washington DC at the Institute on Religion and Democracy and Doctor Tennant shared with me some of the kind of like a a Cliff notes version of his course and his book for the body.
00:00:33 Andy Miller III
This is one of the most important books of our time, really.
00:00:35 Andy Miller III
I think it's like kind of like a foundation piece for us to think about the doctrine of creation in Revelation, as particular as it relates to.
00:00:41 Andy Miller III
Challenges that our society experiences with human sexuality and a whole range of issues, so I think you'll find.
00:00:48 Andy Miller III
This really helpful doctor Tim tenant is a intellectual, pastoral and administrative leader for the Wesleyan movement as a whole.
00:00:56 Andy Miller III
He's a friend of mine, been a kind of a key mentor for me, and I'm so thankful for the fact that he gave us a few minutes here to share.
00:01:03 Andy Miller III
In this podcast, we actually do this interview from the Institute on Religion and Democracy.
00:01:08 Andy Miller III
I just want to make sure you know.
00:01:09 Andy Miller III
Something you know that there's a free resource available for you from Andy Miller.
00:01:13 Andy Miller III
Third com, that's Andy Miller E.
00:01:15 Andy Miller III
Com, It's a four page PDF document that helps preachers and teachers move from the stage of looking at Scripture and executing Scripture to moving to the creative process of presenting it.
00:01:28 Andy Miller III
So I think you'll find this tool really tool really helpful if you sign up for my email list, I'll send it to you for free, and if you'd contact me if you're already on my email list, I'm glad to share this with you to just reach out to me.
00:01:39 Andy Miller III
I'm glad to be in touch.
00:01:41 Andy Miller III
I'm thankful to that.
00:01:42 Andy Miller III
Have a podcast, sponsor some podcast sponsors who've come along to make this happen.
00:01:46 Andy Miller III
My thanks to those wpo.
00:01:48 Andy Miller III
Development Bill Roberts and his financial planning firm and an anonymous donor who have helped make this podcast in this platform or reality.
00:01:55 Andy Miller III
I hope you'll enjoy this podcast with Doctor Tim tenant on the more to the story podcast.
00:02:00 Andy Miller III
God bless you.
00:02:01 Andy Miller III
Welcome to the more to the story podcast.
00:02:03 Andy Miller III
This is a great day.
00:02:04 Andy Miller III
I have one of my favorite people on the podcast with me and I mean that look in my eyes growing up.
00:02:10 Andy Miller III
I had a poster of Michael Jordan and I had a poster of Isaiah Thomas Ryan Sandberg.
00:02:17 Andy Miller III
If I if you had to get the active person now.
00:02:21 Andy Miller III
I think it be you 10.
00:02:22 Andy Miller III
Tenant Dr 10 tenant.
00:02:24 Tim Tennent
President for Asbury Seminary
00:02:26 Tim Tennent
Thank you so much.
00:02:26 Andy Miller III
For coming to podcast.
Thank you Andy it's.
00:02:28 Tim Tennent
Good to be here.
00:02:29 Andy Miller III
So we're here in Washington DC, so this isn't our normal location, but here we are.
00:02:29 Speaker 2
Gonna be here.
00:02:34 Andy Miller III
You've come in helping us at Wesley Biblical seminary teacher class.
00:02:37 Andy Miller III
Based upon your book and some of the sermons.
00:02:39 Andy Miller III
You've done on the body and we want to talk about some network.
00:02:41 Andy Miller III
The Institute for Religion and Democracy.
00:02:43 Andy Miller III
Democracy headquarters right here.
00:02:46 Andy Miller III
So thanks so much for coming.
00:02:47 Speaker 2
Thank you, it's great being.
00:02:48 Andy Miller III
Here so I wanted to take a chance.
00:02:51 Andy Miller III
You put a book that's had a book that's come out lately or not.
00:02:53 Andy Miller III
I guess now probably a year and a half ago with Zondervan and seedbed for the body, and in that even just in your title, you kind of give us where you're going.
00:03:03 Andy Miller III
So even let's just talk about that first.
00:03:05 Andy Miller III
00:03:06 Speaker 2
00:03:07 Speaker 2
And I think that you know the first generation of responseto.
00:03:11 Speaker 2
Some of the issues on human sexuality been a lot based on what we're against this or against this, or against that right, and so I wanted to move the discussion beyond that.
00:03:20 Speaker 2
To say OK, we get that, but what are we for?
00:03:23 Speaker 2
What is the Grand Christian vision which compels us, well?
00:03:27 Speaker 2
You know, why are we against these things?
00:03:29 Speaker 2
Well, miss before something.
00:03:30 Speaker 2
So this is really trying to cast what?
00:03:32 Speaker 2
Is the the Christian view of the body we call a theology of the body.
00:03:35 Andy Miller III
Right and and so this is more than just responding to a specific issue like and and you highlight that that's been part of the problem, like what have some of those knee jerk reactions been from the past.
00:03:47 Andy Miller III
You know 1020 years?
00:03:49 Speaker 2
Well, I think a lot of it.
00:03:50 Speaker 2
There's false narratives that because we have position against things like same sex marriage or against gender reassignment.
00:03:58 Speaker 2
Therefore we are against people against certain groups of people, et cetera.
00:04:02 Speaker 2
So a lot of it is trying to.
00:04:03 Speaker 2
I think we have to get beyond some of those narratives and.
00:04:06 Speaker 2
Say no no.
00:04:08 Speaker 2
Part of the Wesleyan vision is universal grace. We believe in the grace of God, working all people, and so we, with all people, recipients of God, God's love and care. So we want to be in that redemptive mode. We also believe that God's word.
00:04:22 Speaker 2
Helps us to know how to flourish right and so therefore teach me about marriage about their body and one of the concerns.
00:04:23 Tim Tennent
00:04:27 Speaker 2
I think we have in the current phase is really to recover a proper view of the body and to realize that the church is sipping some Neo gnostic views of the body that that denigrate the body, and so we're trying to recover the creation.
00:04:39 Andy Miller III
Right, right, right.
00:04:42 Speaker 2
Is good, the body is good so.
00:04:43 Andy Miller III
Now, one of the things I was interested in me is we were talking recently actually in the.
00:04:47 Andy Miller III
Class she presented the fact that the.
00:04:48 Andy Miller III
Reason you came up with this and I had wondered this myself.
00:04:52 Andy Miller III
Your train is a missiologist expert in Hinduism, Buddhism, world religions so wouldn't necessarily think their next step would be to talk about human sexuality or a theology of the body.
00:05:02 Andy Miller III
Sotell what led you to move down this path.
00:05:06 Speaker 2
Well, I think on a I think.
00:05:09 Speaker 2
Basically you're right, it's not normally in my normal field of writing, but I did.
00:05:13 Speaker 2
I did feel like that misology.
00:05:15 Speaker 2
At the end of the day, is about communicating across boundaries and explaining things that are you know can be confusing.
00:05:23 Speaker 2
So in some way I think we are in a situation where North America is an emerging mission field, so it's kind of like Leslie Newbigin in you know, how do we understand the Western world is a mission field, so in that sense?
00:05:30 Andy Miller III
00:05:34 Speaker 2
I think it's the book is highly missiological.
00:05:36 Speaker 2
These are the kinds of things we have to learn, new competencies, new vocabulary, new way of talking about things to be effective in the gospel.
00:05:43 Speaker 2
Because this is a big issue in our culture in general, not to mention the church.
00:05:46 Speaker 2
But I think secondly, I think I'm in the Methodist Church and so this is a particular challenge.
00:05:52 Speaker 2
In Mod nomination, because we're facing a big crisis over it and so therefore I just was not happy at all with a lot of the things that were being said.
00:06:01 Speaker 2
You know by many of our leaders that I think we were not being wrong and a lot of our pastors were saying to me we didn't know how to respond to these issues.
00:06:08 Speaker 2
You know, we we, we know that this is wrong, but we don't know what we're for.
00:06:12 Speaker 2
They don't know these things.
00:06:13 Speaker 2
Another theological structure, the whole thing, and so.
00:06:16 Speaker 2
I thought, well, you know what?
00:06:17 Speaker 2
I can do this, so I thought I would.
00:06:19 Speaker 2
Just do it so this book is really a humble attempt to.
00:06:21 Speaker 2
Probably hopefully spurn many other better books that could do a better job than what I've done just to.
00:06:26 Speaker 2
Get the whole conversation going right and it has.
00:06:28 Andy Miller III
It's been really helpful to me and I remember some of the initial sermons that you gave at Asbury Theological Seminary, and people can get that your website is it.
00:06:36 Andy Miller III
00:06:36 Andy Miller III
00:06:37 Speaker 2
Yes, Timothy tenant.com.
00:06:38 Andy Miller III
Timothy tenant so you can go and find that like those are just great message.
00:06:41 Andy Miller III
That helped me think about how to even preach on this topic before the book came out, but the book itself is incredibly helpful and it's interesting to me the the missiologist type of role is like finding out what the questions people are asking like this is the question.
00:06:55 Andy Miller III
And unfortunately, it's like I kind of feel like Jude in the beginning of Jews like I had.
00:07:00 Tim Tennent
Intended to write to you about this.
00:07:02 Andy Miller III
But now I have to call you to contend for the faith because there's other problems like this isn't probably what we wanted to do.
00:07:09 Andy Miller III
But this is.
00:07:10 Andy Miller III
The question and this is the the challenge that's facing the church.
00:07:11 Speaker 2
00:07:13 Speaker 2
Well, Andrew, Walls that you may know is one of the most well known missiologists of our day.
00:07:15 Andy Miller III
00:07:18 Speaker 2
When I had posting under him in Edinburgh and he once said to us in the class, I never forgot it.
00:07:23 Speaker 2
He said the most important work of a missionary.
00:07:27 Speaker 2
Is to understand the questions inside somebody else's head? Wow, I've never forgotten that to this. The most important work of a missionary is to understand the questions inside somebody else.
00:07:34 Andy Miller III
Say that again.
00:07:40 Speaker 2
's head and I think that's actually a really good advice to any pastor, right?
00:07:45 Speaker 2
If you don't know the questions inside.
00:07:47 Speaker 2
Ahead of your parishioners, you won't be able to preach in a way that they'll sit up and take notice, and a lot of the sermons that are, you know, given churches are a name, are weak, are not hitting where people, the questions they have, so they'll look to the culture for answers, and so we really need to.
00:08:05 Speaker 2
Step over game on this issue.
00:08:06 Andy Miller III
Right it I, I think, like the for teachers everybody I mean and Azure thinking people are thinking of witnessing in their communities like what is the question that people are asking and then coming with the answers and you brought up the you said the word, Neo Gnostic and and how that's a part of what we're experiencing as a culture and something that you address.
00:08:24 Andy Miller III
What do you tell us?
00:08:25 Andy Miller III
Tell like the average person here what you mean by new mask.
00:08:27 Speaker 2
Yeah, Gnosticism comes from the word gnosis, which means knowledge.
00:08:31 Speaker 2
And so in the early church at the time of the New Testament was being formed in the in the early writers New Testament they were encountering a movement called Gnosticism, which the special knowledge basically argued that the real you.
00:08:44 Speaker 2
Is the real isthe you inside of you and then your body is not important right?
00:08:49 Speaker 2
And your body can't be trusted.
00:08:50 Speaker 2
In fact your body is evil.
00:08:51 Speaker 4
00:08:51 Speaker 2
It's hot so.
00:08:54 Speaker 2
Today we're also seeing a movement where people are saying, you know what the real self inside of me is a self.
00:09:00 Speaker 2
It's socially constructed.
00:09:01 Speaker 2
For example, it's it's a divided based on social media is based on how I construct myself rather than biological markers, for example.
00:09:09 Speaker 2
So that's a really important example of a sort of a NEO gnostic.
00:09:14 Speaker 2
Kind of thing where you no longer trust your own body, and so that's a crisis today.
00:09:19 Speaker 2
And so in it's part of this, NEO gnostic.
00:09:22 Speaker 2
Theme we're seeing coming through as this is a Christian message retreats.
00:09:26 Speaker 2
These scenes come back up in the culture.
00:09:28 Andy Miller III
00:09:28 Andy Miller III
So it's a Christian message or treats.
00:09:30 Andy Miller III
This is what's emerging.
00:09:31 Speaker 4
00:09:31 Andy Miller III
The I had Christopher West on my podcast and I know you.
00:09:36 Andy Miller III
You quote him and he hishis kind of evangelical version of his book.
00:09:40 Andy Miller III
You know he has the theology of body for beginners.
00:09:42 Andy Miller III
And the larger book.
00:09:44 Andy Miller III
But it's the title for the I think it's Brazos published is our bodies tell God story.
00:09:49 Andy Miller III
So he sent, you know, sent me a copy of it and he crossed out some of the words.
00:09:54 Andy Miller III
And he made it.
00:09:56 Andy Miller III
Your body tells God story, but there's something in that like that.
00:09:59 Andy Miller III
The the physical created world that we inhabit in itself is a theology that tells us what gods do in the world.
00:10:08 Andy Miller III
Could you unpack that?
00:10:09 Andy Miller III
A little bit.
00:10:09 Speaker 2
Yeah, I think in general I think the Christian view is that the physical world because it God is the creator, points to spiritual realities and so when God creates us, you know our bodies are pointers to the end.
00:10:20 Speaker 2
Our nation, you know when we get married, Paul himself teaches that the marriage is a pointer to Christ in a church.
00:10:27 Speaker 2
You know varying children, a pointer to the Trinity, and all these things are pointers to spiritual mysteries.
00:10:33 Speaker 2
So part of what I think Christopher West has been good at is explaining how you know our bodies are talking to us.
00:10:39 Speaker 2
But we're not listening, you know, and that we ought to listen.
00:10:41 Speaker 2
Better to that fact that God has put spiritual mysteries woven into creation itself, right?
00:10:47 Speaker 2
And therefore he's done some good work.
00:10:50 Speaker 2
00:10:50 Andy Miller III
His work yeah, so you go through and and you kind of take some of Pope John Paul's II ideas and break them down.
00:10:56 Andy Miller III
And we're talking about them now, like in terms of building blocks.
00:11:00 Andy Miller III
I don't have time to go through all of them.
00:11:02 Andy Miller III
But what are some of the the key kind of building blocks of a theology of the body, that that you like to see the the Church and Christians address?
00:11:10 Speaker 2
Well, I just think that part of it is building its look the way how do we understand?
00:11:15 Speaker 2
And certain ways we teach understand the Bible in terms of understanding how that implies the body.
00:11:21 Speaker 2
So for examples, if you don't believe creation is good, then it affects your view.
00:11:26 Speaker 2
The body, if you don't believe that your body is created by God, then why would Christ come in the incarnation of body?
00:11:32 Speaker 2
You know all of the means of grace happened to the body.
00:11:35 Speaker 2
You know taking.
00:11:36 Speaker 2
Eucharist or being baptized, serving the poor.
00:11:39 Speaker 2
All that happens to the body.
00:11:41 Speaker 2
So the body is a very, very powerful embodiment, and.
00:11:45 Speaker 2
Part of the thethe book is looking at also issues like the loss of same gender friendships.
00:11:50 Speaker 2
You know if you sexualize all relationships, then no, you not can't be friends in the same way we used to be, and so the phrase which we now use very commonly, it says you know blood is thicker than water, that phrase is.
00:11:56 Andy Miller III
00:12:05 Speaker 2
Taking the mean, of course that you know family ties are more important than other friendship tells like you and me, but the original phrase this before DNA and blood and blood was actually the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb.
00:12:10 Speaker 4
00:12:19 Speaker 2
It was actually about.
00:12:20 Speaker 2
The power of friendships.
00:12:22 Speaker 2
So a lot of books written showing that same gender friendships are on a sharp decline in our culture, especially after puberty.
00:12:30 Speaker 2
And so that's a big concern of the book too.
00:12:32 Speaker 2
Is how we understand the body idea a lot with issues of shame of the way.
00:12:37 Speaker 2
For example, the bodily.
00:12:39 Speaker 2
Image is portrayed for women, young women, so if you have body image is portrayed in certain way in magazines and film etc.
00:12:46 Speaker 2
This creates shame for a young woman.
00:12:48 Speaker 2
Instagram has already been shown to have done this young women.
00:12:49 Andy Miller III
00:12:52 Speaker 2
These are very important issues and so.
00:12:54 Speaker 2
The Christian answer is a theology of the body.
00:12:57 Andy Miller III
00:12:58 Speaker 2
And it actually covers a lot of issues.
00:13:00 Speaker 2
It's not just about same sex marriage, it's about everything from you.
00:13:01 Andy Miller III
00:13:03 Speaker 2
Know video games where you have first person killing to abortion to you know Doctor assisted suicide.
00:13:11 Speaker 2
I mean it goes to all kinds of issues.
00:13:13 Andy Miller III
How you take care of yourselfright me.
00:13:14 Speaker 2
Absolutely, although and caring for the poor, helping people that are homeless.
00:13:16 Andy Miller III
00:13:19 Speaker 2
All these things are connected to the dignity of the body, and so it's very important for Christians to see this.
00:13:25 Speaker 2
Not a sectarian, you know?
00:13:28 Speaker 2
This is a big block issue that Christians must recover in our day.
00:13:33 Andy Miller III
So as you've studied this and like you look at all the interconnectedness of all of these areas, this is a strange question.
00:13:40 Andy Miller III
I think it may be what would as you studied this, what?
00:13:44 Andy Miller III
What do you what's next?
00:13:46 Andy Miller III
I mean we we.
00:13:47 Andy Miller III
What it what do we?
00:13:48 Andy Miller III
You know we have these flashpoints in culture right now.
00:13:51 Andy Miller III
I mean, I think about Mark Zuckerberg and the and the Metaverse or the meta like this existing and and that that seems completely foreign to me, but this is going to be commonplace for my children.
00:14:00 Andy Miller III
And what do you see coming?
00:14:02 Andy Miller III
What else do we need to be aware of as a?
00:14:04 Andy Miller III
What does the body speak into?
00:14:07 Speaker 2
Yeah, I think this is where.
00:14:08 Speaker 2
I think the work of John Jefferson Davis has been influenced in my mind where he argues that.
00:14:13 Speaker 2
The whole world that we have grown up since the Enlightenment has pitted basically 2 ontologies or two views of the self.
00:14:19 Speaker 2
You had essentially a materialistic self which is framed by this 5 senses and scientific worldview and then you had the what he called the ecclesiastical Trinitarian self, which doesn't deny that the.
00:14:33 Speaker 2
Science, but also has deeper dimensions in terms of our other body, etc.
00:14:37 Speaker 2
He always argues that what was now emerging is actually a whole new third ontology.
00:14:42 Speaker 2
What he calls the virtual self, the digital self, where you're actually seeing that the people are now saying because of the metatarsal social media that their virtual self is actually more true in their mind than their own existence.
00:14:59 Speaker 2
This has been studied publicly in Japan, Japan.
00:15:03 Speaker 2
Has a whole generation of people that are completely locked into a digital life.
00:15:08 Speaker 2
So it's definitely coming our way, so this is not simply about how much time you spend on the on the web.
00:15:14 Speaker 2
This is about a deep sense of the very nature of personhood is being under challenged differently, and it comes into the whole therapeutic self.
00:15:22 Speaker 2
And how we project ourselves.
00:15:24 Speaker 2
And there are people who you know they're avatars, they create.
00:15:27 Speaker 2
That becomes the the you, they're real.
00:15:29 Speaker 2
Umm, and that's a big that's where this is headed.
00:15:32 Speaker 2
I think next.
00:15:33 Andy Miller III
And so it's like the foundation.
00:15:34 Andy Miller III
I think that you lay here in this book is like it's not it.
00:15:37 Andy Miller III
It is dealing with the challenges with same sex marriage, which is a a flashpoint in the in the I method church and unfortunately now in the Salvation Army as well.
00:15:47 Andy Miller III
Like, but it's not just about that these are like interconnected areas where we have got to develop a theology.
00:15:53 Andy Miller III
Of creation and the body revelation that helps us be able to fight against it.
00:15:59 Andy Miller III
When I say fight again, here I am.
Yeah, yeah, I'm already got.
00:16:01 Speaker 2
00:16:03 Andy Miller III
Can't get away.
00:16:03 Andy Miller III
Can't get away from the fighting lanes.
00:16:04 Speaker 4
You guys are funny.
00:16:05 Andy Miller III
It's what we're for, right?
00:16:07 Tim Tennent
We're we're for.
00:16:08 Andy Miller III
This beautiful picture of what God has for the.
00:16:10 Speaker 2
World Yeah, but I do think there's a spiritual warfare aspect to all of these things.
00:16:16 Speaker 2
I mean, so I do think that the enemy of our souls is trying to attack this culture.
00:16:20 Speaker 2
The Bible says that he's blinded the ozium believers, right?
00:16:23 Speaker 2
So we do believe there is a, you know, the Christian life is not for the non combatant so there is a sense we are in a battle, you know and the army always kept our language well so we do it with gentleness.
00:16:36 Speaker 2
We do respect, we do it.
00:16:38 Speaker 2
In love, but we are.
00:16:38 Speaker 2
In a battle right?
00:16:39 Speaker 2
00:16:40 Speaker 2
Thanks for encouraging.
00:16:41 Tim Tennent
Back on that.
00:16:41 Andy Miller III
No, a lot of my listeners are salvationists not all like how about 6070% probably are, but you saw my interview our kind of debate conversation with Chick you'll.
00:16:53 Andy Miller III
So after I sat through your first class here, I'm the professor of record for you, so I do.
00:16:58 Andy Miller III
I'm doing the grading for this class.
00:17:00 Andy Miller III
I was like, oh man, I probably could have done so much better.
00:17:04 Andy Miller III
00:17:04 Andy Miller III
What do you think about that type of conversation?
00:17:06 Andy Miller III
Here's here's why I'm asking because you said something to me like, well, we've been through this United Methodist Church already and it's like the Salvation Army is just getting there.
00:17:13 Andy Miller III
So here's my broke.
00:17:14 Andy Miller III
What what's your advice to the Salvation Army at this point?
00:17:17 Andy Miller III
Like it's really starting to grapple with these issues.
00:17:20 Speaker 2
Well, I think you have to establish a really good baseline of whether or not the Army is committed to the scriptures and really coming description on these matters.
00:17:31 Speaker 2
So example Romans 1 Romans one is sometimes Oh well, this is about pederasty or this is about exploitative sex.
00:17:39 Speaker 2
It clearly is not, and there's biblical reasons why it's impossible, especially since he condemns both sides of the party, right?
00:17:46 Speaker 2
His exploitative you wouldn't do that, or lesbianism was actually was mutual in the ancient world he has.
00:17:51 Speaker 2
This is the one reference to Les.
00:17:52 Speaker 2
Busum in the New Testament.
00:17:54 Speaker 2
So a lot of times you have people who will make claims about certain texts or this is about pederasty or whatever and you have to really know your scriptures.
00:18:05 Speaker 2
The Bible uses about 7 different word Greek words for various sexual acts, is very specific and one of the I guess advantages that we have.
00:18:13 Speaker 2
In the New Testament, is the the Roman world was highly sexualized.
00:18:17 Speaker 2
They were very, very involved.
00:18:18 Speaker 2
If there's a lot of involvement in sexual activity, so the church had to speak to that.
00:18:22 Speaker 2
So we're coming back to an issue that is was very common in the Roman world.
00:18:27 Speaker 2
Consensual sex was very common.
00:18:29 Speaker 2
There was all kinds of anything you could imagine and more.
00:18:33 Speaker 2
Was was present in the Roman world, so I'd recommend that I.
00:18:37 Speaker 2
I would say that you know this is where the army is going to have to recognize and see what has been the trajectory of churches that have gone down this road, right?
00:18:47 Speaker 2
Look at the PC USA.
00:18:48 Speaker 2
Look at the Young Methodist Church going down the line.
00:18:51 Speaker 2
All major denominations.
00:18:53 Speaker 2
Mainline dominations that have gone down this road have ended in a total disaster.
00:18:58 Speaker 2
They've either ended in a massive membership loss, which is what's fueled most of the large evangelical churches in this country now, or they've gone into a huge split where the movement itself is severed in multiple pieces and look at the PC at USA.
00:19:14 Speaker 2
The PCA, the OPI, the EP, you look at the MSC.
00:19:18 Speaker 2
Church about to have the Global Methodist Church break off and so I would really encourage the army to to never forget your roots.
You know your.
00:19:26 Speaker 2
Holiness roots, that's what gives you the vibrancy of your movement, right?
00:19:30 Speaker 2
There's no point in abandoning that.
00:19:32 Speaker 2
It's so powerful.
00:19:33 Speaker 2
It's so vital.
00:19:34 Speaker 2
And the advantage that the army brings is that you no one can say about the army.
00:19:40 Speaker 2
All you care about are people justification in their souls.
00:19:43 Speaker 2
00:19:44 Speaker 2
I mean, that's the that's.
00:19:45 Speaker 2
What we get a lot and you know.
00:19:46 Andy Miller III
Right, sure, sure.
00:19:47 Speaker 2
You guys, all you know you're just.
00:19:48 Speaker 2
You're just you.
00:19:48 Speaker 2
Know trying to plan to get you into heaven.
00:19:50 Speaker 2
You don't care at this world and.
00:19:51 Speaker 2
All that no one.
00:19:52 Speaker 2
Knows about the army so you guys.
00:19:53 Tim Tennent
00:19:54 Speaker 2
Have got the advantage where no one can question your commitment to the to the culture.
00:19:58 Speaker 2
The deepest needs of the culture, and yet you're born out of a deep evangelistic spirit.
00:20:05 Speaker 2
That wanted to populate heaven, right?
00:20:07 Speaker 2
And you've got it.
00:20:08 Speaker 2
Both don't given up.
00:20:10 Andy Miller III
And it's a theology the body helps us get.
00:20:11 Speaker 4
00:20:12 Andy Miller III
Get it it can.
00:20:13 Andy Miller III
Really enliven what we call our social services, right?
00:20:17 Andy Miller III
Like this is what you know.
00:20:18 Andy Miller III
Pope John Paul.
00:20:19 Andy Miller III
The second my grandfather was with a group of church leaders.
00:20:23 Andy Miller III
He was the national commander of the Salvation Army and.
00:20:25 Andy Miller III
Here's a group of church leaders who are going to meet the Pope John Paul a second.
00:20:28 Andy Miller III
And so they were kind of coming down the line and he was coming to me.
00:20:31 Andy Miller III
Each one they're like, yes, father or whatever.
00:20:33 Andy Miller III
Well then he got to my grandfather not because he was my grandfather now because of who he was, his personality which was a big personality but be solely because of his uniform.
00:20:42 Andy Miller III
When the Pope looked up and saw my grandfather uniform he said.
00:20:45 Tim Tennent
Salvation Army Salvation Army and he grabbed his hands and he started shaking and he just started dancing around with my grandfather.
00:20:52 Andy Miller III
He's like you get it, it I I?
00:20:55 Andy Miller III
You know I'm not sure how where my grandfather was or those type of Salvation Army leader.
00:21:00 Andy Miller III
There's of Pope John Paul II's theology of the body, but my guess is that's part of why he was so excited because.
00:21:06 Andy Miller III
Exactly excited because us in the Catholic Church like they are the ones who have institutionalized, hopefully in a good way. This type of work, that God's.
00:21:15 Speaker 2
Exactly, it's a great synergistic view of how God is calling us to participate with him in saving the world and.
00:21:15 Andy Miller III
Called the flu.
00:21:23 Speaker 2
So that's it's a good heritage.
00:21:25 Speaker 2
Don't give it up and.
00:21:26 Andy Miller III
Yeah, I think that's a great encouragement.
00:21:27 Andy Miller III
I'll ask one more question and I'm just imagine there's some people watching who have had challenges with their own experience right where they have a a friend or loved one who's come out as gay or or, or is identifying in different way.
00:21:39 Andy Miller III
What's your kind of pastoral word to them?
00:21:42 Speaker 2
Well, these struggles are real struggles and so we like any other pastoral concern.
00:21:47 Speaker 2
You know the if you look at the history of alcoholism, you know this obviously well with the army. Great work with alcoholism, but you know you had the the amendment solution, which was just banned alcohol and then you add alcohol comma's, right?
00:21:59 Speaker 2
So there are two different approaches.
00:22:00 Speaker 2
00:22:01 Speaker 2
One was to say, well, these things don't happen.
00:22:02 Speaker 2
I mean the famous line from the President, Iran.
00:22:05 Speaker 2
There are no homosexuals in Iran, you know.
00:22:07 Speaker 2
It doesn't really help us, right?
00:22:08 Speaker 2
So it's important to acknowledge the fact that we really do have people that have gender dysphoria who are same-sex attracted and their ministries.
00:22:17 Speaker 2
Like Revoice is one example and I know that Revoice has some challenges, but the base of the whole thing is to say, are there Christians that are trying to be faithful and live in celibacy?
00:22:27 Speaker 2
For example, as celibate Christians.
00:22:30 Speaker 2
So there are examples where I think.
00:22:33 Speaker 2
Christians are now trying to struggle to say how can we help people in these situations.
00:22:37 Speaker 2
Pastorally while at the same time recognizing that you can't let experience Trump's scripture.
00:22:43 Andy Miller III
00:22:43 Speaker 2
So end of the day, the word of God has to clarify gods will in all these matters.
00:22:48 Speaker 2
And so the church needs to make sure we keep that in line, but we should always, you know, have compassion on people who struggle in this culture is a cauldron of confusion, right?
00:22:59 Speaker 2
And so young people have a lot of mercy on them.
00:23:01 Speaker 2
They're growing up in their school system, hearing all of this, and so they often wonder anybody going through puberty.
00:23:02 Andy Miller III
00:23:07 Speaker 2
It has their own.
00:23:08 Speaker 2
Challenges anyway, right?
00:23:09 Speaker 2
As you can imagine, it would be easy if we had if wegrown up 20 years ago, right?
00:23:13 Speaker 2
We might be in the same position, so I have a lot of compassion, but I think the church needs to lead in this and be be.
00:23:19 Speaker 2
Active rather than just be silent about it and give some good guidance.
00:23:23 Andy Miller III
In trying to teach our kids, you know this this foundation of.
00:23:26 Andy Miller III
What we're for?
00:23:27 Andy Miller III
Well, there's about 100 things I'd like to talk to you about, but we had a busy day and I've taken a lot of your time anyways, so we only gave you a couple hours off from teaching here, so I'm really thankful for having you here.
00:23:37 Andy Miller III
And thanks for coming and.
00:23:38 Speaker 2
Well, thank you, thank you.
00:23:40 Andy Miller III
One of my chief Encouragers too, and even this new page made section of my life where I'm serving this way has been you and Julie.
00:23:47 Andy Miller III
So Abby and I so appreciate you.
Well, thank foryour.
00:23:50 Speaker 2
Fine work at WBS.
00:23:51 Speaker 2
And of courseyour.
00:23:52 Speaker 2
Ongoing work with the army and.
00:23:53 Speaker 2
My God bless.
00:23:54 Andy Miller III
You thank you.
00:23:55 Andy Miller III
Thanks so much for coming along.
00:23:56 Andy Miller III
Check us out if you don't mind hitting the subscribe or like and share this with a friend who needs to hear this type of method, it would mean a lot to us.
00:24:03 Andy Miller III
God bless you.