Andy Miller III
Henry Clay Morrison and the Global Holiness MovementHenry Clay Morrison and the Global Holiness Movement

Henry Clay Morrison and the Global Holiness Movement

September 1 2022


Most denominations in the holiness tradition are unaware of the way the holiness movement impacted global Christianity. Dr. Oconer gives a helpful analysis of Henry Clay Morrison’s World Tour of Evangelism which is indicative of forgotten aspects of the holiness movement.

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Transcript

Welcome to the more to the story podcast I am so glad that you have come along thanks for checking this out, and if you have enjoyed past episodes of the moral story podcast I would love it.

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Andy Miller III: If you would write a review for us on apple podcast or share a link with friends share on social media subscribe on YouTube however you're getting this that just helps the content that we're producing get a further audience I don't know how all those algorithms work.

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Luther Oconer: online.

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Andy Miller III: But they say that that makes a difference, so I encourage you to check out, we have a great episode today with a new friend of mine and i'm going to introduce him here just a second.

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Andy Miller III: But those of you who are interested in the western holiness tradition, are going to be fascinated i'm telling you fascinated by this subject today.

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Andy Miller III: But first we want you to know that today's podcast comes to you from Wesley biblical seminary where we are developing.

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Andy Miller III: trusted leaders for faithful churches, we do that through a variety of programs and actually in September there's something very important and starting called the Wesley institute it's a program for lay people.

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Andy Miller III: nine month program that there's two versions, there is a Bible track and a theology track and We walked through every book of the Bible.

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Andy Miller III: In the Bible track, and you have seminary professors teaching and all of those sessions and then there's a theology track similar type of trajectory so we love for you to check that out at WB s.edu also this podcast is brought to you by wp.

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Andy Miller III: Oh development their CEO Keith waters has helped more than 250 organizations around the country with mission planning says feasibility studies and capital campaigns.

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Andy Miller III: They do a great job job coming alongside of people helping them kind of develop a vision know where they're going in there, helps them get there, so you can find.

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Andy Miller III: Information about WIPO development in the show notes and, finally, I want to make sure you know that this fall as you're kind of getting together your resources, maybe for a Sunday school class or small group curriculum.

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Andy Miller III: I have just released a new study of the book of jude it's six sessions five hours of content that's designed for small groups and Sunday school classes with the discussion guide discussion forum.

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Andy Miller III: Experts talking on this and certain areas and walking through this powerful little book.

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Andy Miller III: That calls us to contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints, and so you can check that out my website at Andy Miller, the third.com that's Andy Miller, I I calm.

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Andy Miller III: All right, I am excited to welcome in to the podcast and more to story podcast Dr Luther o'connor who serves as the global wesley's theology professor at.

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Andy Miller III: asbury theological seminary, particularly in asbury global, which means that it's a campus that's connected to have not just their campus and wilmore but all of their extension sites around the country, and maybe at some point around the world Luther welcome to podcast.

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Luther Oconer: Yes, thank you Andy thanks for having me in this famous five class of yours.

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Luther Oconer: So uh yeah so and i'm glad to be here and.

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Luther Oconer: And with a you know our conversation particularly.

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Luther Oconer: On the topic that you asked me to talk about.

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Andy Miller III: yeah we're going to get there just said before we.

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Andy Miller III: can be i've been so impressed and thankful for just a week just knowing each other, even in this year we served on a committee together at the faith.

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Andy Miller III: Once for all delivered, we, the next methodism concept that was a really exciting thing and then we were at a conference together, where we both speaking and i'm just like i'm like man, how did I not know this guy so.

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Andy Miller III: i'm really thankful to get a chance to share but tell tell some folks just briefly about you and how god's i've been at work in your life and even your your calling to serve as Professor and scholar.

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Luther Oconer: Oh yes, i'm currently a professor at the has really theological seminary I just joined the Faculty just last year.

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Luther Oconer: So this is my 10th year of teaching in the spring, you know as a ministry, but prior to that i'd been at united theological seminary for nine years in Dayton Ohio and in fact I just moved here in Orlando Orlando area just less than one.

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Luther Oconer: So we're still we're still have boxes to attack.

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Luther Oconer: yeah but anyway i'm originally from the Philippines I wasn't born and raised there and moved to this country in 2001 when I did my masters at the university and then one bedroom yeah and lattice and New Jersey and then went on to do my PhD there.

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Andy Miller III: Tom joad in there.

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Luther Oconer: I know he was already on the way out when I when I got there, but I got to work with a number of amazing people.

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Luther Oconer: In the.

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Luther Oconer: In the wesleyan studies i'm going to call that cohort that I drew.

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Luther Oconer: And, and so it's been it's been a great journey.

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Luther Oconer: to learn more about Methodist and while I wasn't there, and even to know more about my own heritage as a method is from the Philippines.

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Luther Oconer: yeah yes, yes, I said, did my dissertation, particularly on that.

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Luther Oconer: On that subject matter uh.

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Andy Miller III: yeah was that was it connected to a message, or even the holiness movement.

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Luther Oconer: or yeah it's.

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Luther Oconer: it's it's sort of the intersection between methodism.

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Luther Oconer: A the manifestations of the holiness movement in in mission mission history.

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Luther Oconer: And a little bit of an intersection with pentecostalism.

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Luther Oconer: Pentecostal history, so we have those three going on.

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Luther Oconer: In my study.

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Andy Miller III: Now, a lot of people know like i've had some people on my podcast to.

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Andy Miller III: Talk about what's going on in methodism so I had Keith boy at wc gay.

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Andy Miller III: Recently i'd Robin for a lot of good news.

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Andy Miller III: And there's the significance of what's called the within the United Methodist the central conference is where you are part of the united Methodist church, or just a branch of method is.

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Luther Oconer: A i'm still part of the united Methodist church i'm i'm an ordained elder in the Philippines, because in the Philippines, we did not become autonomous so we're still part of the united Methodist church connection and under the Philippines central conference.

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Luther Oconer: yeah.

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Luther Oconer: So it started in 18 the method, this is the mothership is couple tricks came to the Philippines late 1898 39 1899.

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Luther Oconer: And that's where methodism started there.

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Luther Oconer: And now we're like I think five or six animal conferences all over the country and 300,000 plus united Methodist.

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Luther Oconer: wow.

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Andy Miller III: In the fellow here that 300,000 plus united Methodist in the Philippines.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, wow that is amazing and and so there's a whole system of probably seminaries in schools and.

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Andy Miller III: Even in asbury college in the Philippines.

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Luther Oconer: Yes, there is one, but but no connections with.

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Luther Oconer: With us marine wilmer when we're Kentucky it's just I guess just named after aspiration.

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Luther Oconer: yeah begin with and then a whole number of.

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Luther Oconer: Probably about you know, a dozen colleges, or maybe less than a dozen colleges all over the country.

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Luther Oconer: And and plenty of kindergarten schools.

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Andy Miller III: yeah interesting.

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wow.

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Andy Miller III: Okay, this is a I didn't tell you how to ask this question so tell me a little bit like as you've come to United States it's.

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Andy Miller III: been 10 years here are longer 10 years.

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Luther Oconer: 20 years plus yeah.

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Andy Miller III: 20 years.

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Luther Oconer: wow yeah.

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Andy Miller III: So tell me about the compare and contrast methodism between the two.

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Luther Oconer: Oh that's an that's an interesting question because I got to encounter that just right off the BAT.

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Luther Oconer: You know, you know sort of suppress the vote when I when I even when I first came in this is a week before 911 and.

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Luther Oconer: Oh wow and a week or two weeks before that in.

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Luther Oconer: And so the the first Sunday the first Sunday, I went to a united Methodist church with what's nearby the campus subdue.

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Luther Oconer: And, of course, naturally, because i'm united methodists I would go to United Methodist church right, so I went there I attended and and Lo and behold the you know the pastor had I think has a doctorate PhD degree.

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Luther Oconer: Whereas I saw was, you know as as he was speaking I was kinda you know, I was already noticing the differences.

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Luther Oconer: wow with the way he preach the message and it felt like you know it felt I felt like an alien.

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Luther Oconer: In in that church I didn't know whether I was in a Methodist church.

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Luther Oconer: And nobody greeted me know what you said hi to me, I went in and I went out and that was it, but I never I never came back.

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Luther Oconer: wow and then I you know, and then a week later, I got in touch with a with a pastor of the vineyard church.

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Luther Oconer: Okay interest on campus and he came and picked me up and then from then on, I started attending a vineyard church.

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Okay.

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Luther Oconer: Because I felt much more at home.

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Luther Oconer: yeah with with the type of worship, that they had at the end, the vineyard church that's the spirituality the the warm.

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Luther Oconer: I felt a much more of a connection there than with the United methodists traits that I went to.

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Luther Oconer: yeah um so yeah so so that's an area that vineyard church for probably about seven years.

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Luther Oconer: But almost in in and out because I was also serving another church.

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Luther Oconer: A non denominational denominational church leader and as a youth pastor.

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Luther Oconer: But I was always been connected with with that being your church more than I was connected with the United vested.

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Luther Oconer: Interest, so you have to fire me yeah.

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Andy Miller III: As I visited, you know as we've come to in Jackson area visiting other churches to see what's going on, I i've been interesting like the one of the most Wesley and messages that i've heard as come at a charismatic church.

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Luther Oconer: Oh yeah.

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Luther Oconer: Yes.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, interesting like to be truly connected to the identity of the movement, I might need to be something that is outside of the institutions of.

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Luther Oconer: Yes, yes, exactly, and that kinda you know that kind of made me realize that in the United States in the Philippines, we were more charismatic Okay, we were more charismatic Pentecostal leaning.

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Luther Oconer: And you know whether this.

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Luther Oconer: In the US.

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Luther Oconer: But, of course, as you know, as my knowledge of the United States in the US kind of expanded and more people I realized that there, there were pockets.

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Luther Oconer: Of the charismatic expressions also united Madison in the US and so just so happened that the ones that i've encountered when I was in New Jersey weren't like that.

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Luther Oconer: And then, when we.

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Luther Oconer: carry a.

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Luther Oconer: medic.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, mean it doesn't mean like emphasizing healing speaking in tongues or just kind of an awareness of the spirit.

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Luther Oconer: Yes, more of the awareness of spirit and the worship style, particularly with you know praise and worship.

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Luther Oconer: praise and worship, music and, of course, the language of the spirit, you know, like listen the in in the in the language.

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Luther Oconer: Of the Church, you can hear people talking about the Holy Spirit the spiritual life so we get that a lot in the in the Philippines.

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Luther Oconer: yeah and partly because of that history as well, so i'm gonna probably you know get a chance to talk more about.

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Exactly.

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Andy Miller III: Your research is yes that's why I love.

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Andy Miller III: I love it when our research interests or writing or preaching truly is can connected to our life now, before we go too much further, I do want to mention i'm not seeing your screen.

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Andy Miller III: Your screen is frozen, but which might be okay it's and people on YouTube we might have to deal with me if you're looking for a movement but yeah let's try and start it.

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Luther Oconer: There you go.

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Luther Oconer: Okay.

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Andy Miller III: cool oh good.

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Andy Miller III: Okay, so this is interesting to your dissertation.

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Andy Miller III: was on holiness holiness movement in the Philippines.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, that then gave you an avenue to think of a very particular event of a key holiness movement leave your Henry clay.

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Luther Oconer: More actually yeah.

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Andy Miller III: Who is the founder of asbury seminary it fascinating that you're there, of course, and then also the was the President of as very college at that time, but.

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Luther Oconer: You know.

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Andy Miller III: People might not know they might know him for that, but this you have, this is a gigantic big your head spokesperson of this theological perspective in United that perspective behind a magazine called the Pentecostal Harold.

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Andy Miller III: yeah you you found something very interesting.

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Andy Miller III: About I had heard about this about his world tour of evangelism but talk to me about what interested you in that tour.

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Luther Oconer: yeah because first person for mothers, because it's it's something that kind of you know I doing my research for my dissertation I i've kind of briefly intersected with that.

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Luther Oconer: With Henry clay Morris and particularly his store because he went to the Philippines aspiring tour but, but he wasn't in the Philippines, for only a few days, but um but his visit their made quiet I didn't quite quick quite a quite an impact.

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Luther Oconer: In methodism in the Philippines.

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Luther Oconer: You know the story, I would say, one of our story one apart foremost for you and my list in the Philippines, our first the first method is Filipino math is a bishop.

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Luther Oconer: I would make this name is Denise Alejandro he went last year as well, but he made the claim that.

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Luther Oconer: that's how that morrison's visits in the Philippines among the mothers in the Philippines made Holiness the bird fly.

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Luther Oconer: Filipino Methodist it started a whole new spiritual culture in the Philippines that lasted until.

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Luther Oconer: A worldwide Second World War second and beyond.

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Luther Oconer: So that's what kind of caught my attention so that's why I look into that.

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Luther Oconer: And and, later on, there was this.

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Luther Oconer: There was this opportunity at a conference I honestly I ar to present something on the intersections between the holiness movement and pentecostalism that's when I started to look more deeply into.

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Luther Oconer: morrison's world tour of evangelists and which kind of allowed me to see much more of that you know to see where he went a different conference he went to how a minister, the message they preach and its impact in those different countries today, you went to a within a span of 11 months.

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Luther Oconer: amazing yeah.

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Andy Miller III: Very now now.

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Andy Miller III: You highlight.

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Andy Miller III: That is yeah properly call it's not properly a world tour because.

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Luther Oconer: Yes, no maybe.

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Andy Miller III: Like a world.

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Luther Oconer: Where do we go to yes first he went to England.

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Luther Oconer: And and and basically just do that you know just do a tourist touristy stuff.

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Luther Oconer: yeah like a like a pilgrimage top of men of the sites in.

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Andy Miller III: England as well.

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Luther Oconer: yeah you might as well do that and then he went to Palestine, you know the Holy Land and again the touristy stuff but really Those are just a segue in for him to go into India.

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Luther Oconer: In India.

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Luther Oconer: methodism had quite a big presence there.

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Luther Oconer: A particular yes, this was in 19 1910.

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Andy Miller III: Okay gotcha.

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Luther Oconer: yeah yeah yeah he left the US in July 1909.

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Luther Oconer: And then he came back in around June.

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Luther Oconer: yeah until 19 them yeah so but anyway, he he got into India and spent I think five about five weeks in India, particularly in the mission stations of the Methodist episcopal church.

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Luther Oconer: And then, after that went through Rangoon Dallas Burma, or Myanmar today.

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Luther Oconer: And then synced up or the Philippines and then went to and then went to China.

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Luther Oconer: He went to he went to Japan.

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Luther Oconer: And then Korea.

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Andy Miller III: interesting.

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Luther Oconer: Yes, quite interesting and then what's interesting is you know he he didn't just go to.

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Luther Oconer: visit missionaries from the medicine episcopal church he went to see missionaries in.

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Luther Oconer: From the Methodist episcopal church south.

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Luther Oconer: yeah, particularly when he was in Korea.

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Luther Oconer: He also went and ministered to missionary or you know, to free the free Methodist church, so I had.

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Luther Oconer: A ymca and and what else.

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Luther Oconer: And rms the oriental missionary society what were, these are all you know, some of them are what we would call today mainline churches.

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Luther Oconer: Some you know.

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Luther Oconer: Some would be what would become like the all Ms well, it was a missionary organization in the radical holiness sense, but what kind of this shows us is the holiness movement was kind of present in different denominations at that time.

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Luther Oconer: I always put it this way it's like kind of like the charismatic movement today there's no particular denomination that claims ownership to it, but it just kind of.

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Luther Oconer: feel it's just kindly intact really operating.

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Luther Oconer: Within the line I know i'll say denominational lines.

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Luther Oconer: Right.

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Andy Miller III: And even resisted it in time.

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Luther Oconer: Yes, yes.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, it's interesting to that they think that this this is so connected more periodical is called.

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Luther Oconer: The Pentecostal cycling exactly.

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Andy Miller III: The founder of my movement in the Wesley and the Salvation Army is famous for a song is singing we want another Pentecost.

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Luther Oconer: Right and it's like.

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Andy Miller III: and also this move away.

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Andy Miller III: From the nomination not.

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Andy Miller III: Thinking of themselves as.

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Andy Miller III: The nation's though sociologically.

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Andy Miller III: er functions a denomination.

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Luther Oconer: yeah because that's the day when we say Pentecostal people see it around the static to mean the Pentecostal movement or listen to the modern Pentecostal movement that started in 1906.

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Luther Oconer: Are the loser revival in Los Angeles, but what people don't know is that this Pentecostal movement is much more earlier than that it's you know it's probably a byproduct of the holiness movement.

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Luther Oconer: yeah, particularly in the 1890s when there was.

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Luther Oconer: A shift.

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Luther Oconer: In in the way the wholeness movements articulated the adoption of holiness and and they begin to be equated with the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

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Luther Oconer: So, so the teachings on Holiness.

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Luther Oconer: And we just kind of was really a what we would call a Methodist and the grand the positive methodism.

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Luther Oconer: steak and more Pentecostal motive.

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Luther Oconer: In the way people explained it explain it more in the in the vein of you know, the language found in the book of acts.

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Luther Oconer: Right so and so people started equating it, you know, especially the experience of entire sanctification it was equated with the experience of the spiritual life or the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

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Luther Oconer: And so you would see a lot of holiness folks started talking about the entire sanctification that way.

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Luther Oconer: So that's why it's no accident what bring example in the case of morrison and others, at least in the Methodist tradition.

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Luther Oconer: They would have Why would they what they would call kind of cost on meetings with our this for revival meetings.

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Luther Oconer: That they were the hall, and they would call them Pentecostal because the main message was for people with experience that the Pentecostal blessing yeah, but when you see a Pentecostal blessing why they really mean this entire sanctification.

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Luther Oconer: Last a manifestation of power.

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Luther Oconer: You know, for for a mission or ministry, so you So you see those themes kind of become become quite dominant in the 1890s.

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Luther Oconer: And, and so the fact that the morrison change the name on the paper is paper, I think, well, I think matter, these are all methods to do Pentecostal Harold.

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Luther Oconer: seems to, or at least illustrates the fact that you have there was a shift within within the wholeness movement.

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Luther Oconer: towards towards that what I would call Pentecostal.

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Luther Oconer: Holiness, and so that's why you know that was the dominant theme that you will find in in the hall is movement and and it manifested.

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Luther Oconer: Among the missionaries, who went to the mission field in different denominations.

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Luther Oconer: They all you know they were very they were deeply influenced by the by the holiness movement, particularly through all this revival revivals because you know, most of them got they're called admission build in a revival.

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Yes.

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Luther Oconer: A revival meeting experience you know Bella Casa blessing, and so it's you know it's not an accident have to see them to see the accounts.

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Luther Oconer: At least, if you look at the diary or a journal rewards there's a lot of that language going on them talking about the baptism of the Holy Ghost talking about the spiritual drive and it's all because of that influence.

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Luther Oconer: yeah uh and you find across the board in from folks from different denominations sometimes it's hard to make the distinction, you know among this focus but but, really, if you look at them they're just reading the same books, they just.

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Andy Miller III: West, we are.

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Andy Miller III: Literally saying now pan Wesley and it's particularly with United Methodist quite frankly falling apart, become the new.

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Andy Miller III: So yeah there are united Methodist churches are becoming free Methodist.

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Andy Miller III: Global method until we're thinking like so, for instance, I had your colleague, my friend, Jonathan powers come on talk about the new pan Western him, though, but reclaim morrison was doing all of this.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, through.

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Andy Miller III: The Pentecostal Harold which.

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Andy Miller III: I always find it interesting that there's still a remnant of the Herald laughter I said it's not not to the same extent you have been studying more than myself.

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Andy Miller III: I realized that the asbury seminary magazine is called the Herald.

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Luther Oconer: Yes, yes.

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Andy Miller III: remnant kind of.

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Luther Oconer: That.

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Andy Miller III: yeah still.

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Andy Miller III: Harold, so I think that's that's interesting, but never looks like what it was it united, it was.

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Andy Miller III: Was um morrison's movement, I mean.

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Andy Miller III: I wouldn't say it's his movement.

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Andy Miller III: yeah, of course, and if theologically I want to think of as the work of the spirit, like.

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Andy Miller III: it's god's work is what God wants to see happen in the world, at the same time there.

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Andy Miller III: The role of the institution.

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Andy Miller III: is interesting because it wasn't it wasn't an institution uniting these groups.

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Andy Miller III: Globally, yeah was morrison's paper is that it.

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Luther Oconer: yeah I think you're correct and extend to smarten speed were there were a number of papers as well uh you know.

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Luther Oconer: With the homeless movement was quite huge during that.

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Luther Oconer: Time and there were a number of folks you know doing their own thing publishing their own papers and and morrison seems pretty awesome Harold was you know, probably would be under top level.

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Luther Oconer: or top tier right right of all those papers, because it's you know because of this, I would say, you know, he was more ecumenical I listen back end up on the city just kind of.

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Luther Oconer: Women in the store it's worked for up evangelism ministry to that because he just went from one language to another very much welcome you know.

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Luther Oconer: And because of that, you know it's kind of industry it's it's his influence.

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Luther Oconer: And popularity.

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Luther Oconer: Within the fan Wesley and you know connection of that time, and also because I think the message you know people just resonated with a message.

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Luther Oconer: In and so it's easy for him to to just kind of crisscross from one boundary to another.

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Luther Oconer: yeah yeah yeah.

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Andy Miller III: Let me pause this, I want to get back to the historical piece in.

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Luther Oconer: Here um.

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Andy Miller III: But there's also, I think you and I get excited about this.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, just like reality.

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Andy Miller III: yeah.

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Luther Oconer: it's exactly like.

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Andy Miller III: There might there might have been some problems in the holiness movement out that time tell me about your own experience with this like this type of Pentecostal blessing.

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Luther Oconer: yeah exactly you guys are.

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Andy Miller III: biographical like, why does this matter to you.

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Luther Oconer: yeah if not i'm going to ask that question.

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Luther Oconer: Because you know people would say when I was a drew you know they would tell us you know dissertations are really biographical and and that's really true for myself, because my dissertation wasn't really connected to my own experience to my own quest to understand methodism.

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Luther Oconer: In the Philippines, and particularly to the lens of my own experience.

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Luther Oconer: Which is way back in 1997 that that was the year when I entered the ministry when I decided.

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Luther Oconer: I was an engineer at that time I was in junior engineer working for a up and racing telecommunications company in the in Manila, and I was working there for for three years in that field and Lo and behold, I I got an experience of what I would call a baptism of the Holy Spirit.

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Luther Oconer: was at an event called alverson gave.

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Luther Oconer: Your conference.

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Luther Oconer: wow So this was a this was you know this was the beginning.

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Luther Oconer: Of a charismatic movement in the in the streets in the Philippines, where we started about 1994 but then started to just kind of explode.

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Luther Oconer: and reach the young people, and so this was a gathering of young people metal this united Methodist young people about 800 of us in a place called bag your city in in the Philippines and I wasn't there you know at the time when I was getting going through my own spiritual crisis.

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Luther Oconer: Because I felt that you know I I once I began entering the field of engineering working in the telecom sperm, I found myself becoming less Christian.

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Luther Oconer: kind of.

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Luther Oconer: Dirty go away from the faith in a way that I became so so busy and fixated on success.

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Luther Oconer: You know, career.

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Luther Oconer: But then I saw that having you know, having a toll on my spot by on my own walk with God.

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Luther Oconer: My own spirituality and it's been manifesting in my life and I didn't want it, I didn't like it.

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Luther Oconer: And so I got to a point where you know I felt like I was at the back of the wall and with no nowhere else to go and and I said, you know.

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Luther Oconer: When I heard that there was this gathering of young people in this elvers Gala event I said i'm gonna go there, what i'm going to tell my boss i'm gonna you know i'm gonna go there and he better allows, allow me to get the santana i'm about to die, so to speak.

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Luther Oconer: And so Lo and behold, I got to that event and just the first night boom, you know experienced something.

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Luther Oconer: That was kind of out of the ordinary allison in the middle of this sense.

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Luther Oconer: I found myself on the floor and then I started laughing on the floor.

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Luther Oconer: yeah I just felt this waves and waves of this divine presence that, then I started laughing actually when they told me, I was, I was the first person to do that.

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Luther Oconer: But it was just waves up on wage and I was there for more than an hour no laughing crying you know, and you know but but I, but you know it was it was amazing I felt like I was going to happen.

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Luther Oconer: But then one thing led to another, in that event that it became clear to me.

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Luther Oconer: That, I was not where God wanted me.

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Luther Oconer: And because Prior to that, even as early as in when I was in elementary and high school people were always telling me I wasn't going to become a pastor I already had a call to ministry, but, but then after finishing College as I run away from it.

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Luther Oconer: I run over on the FAR and so so basically this event, made it clear to me that I was called to the ministry.

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Luther Oconer: So it did it made God real to meet so real to me that there was no way I was gonna go home and not be changed my experience.

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Luther Oconer: And so they're in right there and then the Lord impressed in my heart that I should you know I should fulfill my promise.

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Luther Oconer: So I did and they're made the result that i'm gonna quit my job, and after that you know returned back to Manila and, personally, you know first day at work.

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Luther Oconer: I spoke to my boss and told him i'm gonna quit.

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Luther Oconer: wow and I was I wasn't gonna become a sister, and so I did, and there were a number of young people who did the same.

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Luther Oconer: I was just talking about the United Methodist church and so in the Philippines, when you say you want to become a pastor they appoint to right away to a church.

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Luther Oconer: So a few months later, this was February 1997 by June I was pastor in a church.

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Luther Oconer: And even and even that Church was prophesied in that event, that I will be in this church, the same church.

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Luther Oconer: It was a church by the highway and I wasn't going to church by the highway.

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Luther Oconer: Exactly yes amazing yes absolutely build, and so I was there.

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Luther Oconer: But then, of course, given my experience, you know this charismatic experience, naturally I would carry that with me.

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Luther Oconer: And that costs a lot of problems.

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Luther Oconer: In my church, you know it was awesome because the church went to appear to be viable we became more Pentecostal then and nearby assembly of God church.

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Luther Oconer: And this was a united Methodist church.

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Luther Oconer: But then uh.

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Luther Oconer: You know all their pastors within the district in my district started, not this thing and that's that's when the persecution started, you know they started they started sending folks to kind of look like me, are kinda.

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Luther Oconer: I look on me and total to spy on me, so to speak, and then that would eventually get me in trouble.

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Luther Oconer: wow a later on, after a year, and because I became so identified as a Pentecostal and I was told that there's no that's not allowed in the United Methodist church it got to a point that uh that I was.

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Luther Oconer: I gotta me and two other pastors we we we were.

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Luther Oconer: We got you know we got there we were put in a meeting with the with our deacon what we call this the committee on ministries.

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Luther Oconer: And and and they recommended that they would charge us with a charge of on offense.

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Luther Oconer: In our book of discipline for dissemination of documents, contrary to the doctrine of the united Methodist church because of our pentecostalism.

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Luther Oconer: that's basically what it is, and so I asked them, you know what What did we do that, you know that's.

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Luther Oconer: that's not compatible with the dominance of the programmatic is the magistrate so the UFC and they couldn't tell me anything.

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Luther Oconer: But all they knew was you know what we're doing a snap method this, and so, and so that's kind of down a signal for me the beginning of.

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Luther Oconer: By the way, nothing happened to us, even though they recommend this to be.

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Luther Oconer: To be charged the visa prevent for the reverse that will come annual conference and it didn't happen, but you know it kind of mark for me the beginning of a search.

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Luther Oconer: To kind of find out more about my heritage as a method this and to understand my experience and say because I when I began to do retreats about methodism in England and so all of this accounts of revivals during my time wisely.

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Luther Oconer: And then American method, the same, and so, and so that kind of led me to.

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Luther Oconer: lead me to wanted to study more, and so I said okay i'm gonna what i'll do is probably I need to go to the US.

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Luther Oconer: and get to the bottom of this and learn more about Wesley learn more learn more about Methodist, and so I did the year after that I was, I was a drew I know finally is no not the year after that I went to seminary percent then after graduating a seminary in the Philippines.

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Luther Oconer: I went through.

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Luther Oconer: And within pent up you know being there for a master's only for a year, a year or.

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Andy Miller III: Two okay interesting.

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Luther Oconer: yeah and and and.

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Luther Oconer: And then Lo and behold got open the doors for me to to move into the PhD Program.

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Luther Oconer: Through and my research question was Okay, if there was this powerful revival during the time of Wesley.

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Luther Oconer: And, being an American methodism and then so my question was was there anything like that in the magistrates in the Philippines early history so that's what led me to this basically this research.

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Luther Oconer: So that led me to know more about the holiness movement what was what was the main thing that was happening during that period when the missionaries came to the Philippines, what was the main thing when I realized, it was the holiness movement.

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Luther Oconer: yeah.

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Luther Oconer: That was that was really the thing.

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Luther Oconer: And so that led me to learn more about that, and this intersection with pentecostalism and then, when I look at.

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Luther Oconer: You know the was I wasn't there I drew that that's where the united by districts archives is located.

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Luther Oconer: Right and so all of the missionary.

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Luther Oconer: All of the journals.

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Luther Oconer: conference journals in the Philippines can be found there you have the missionary.

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Luther Oconer: You know the missionary archival missionary materials.

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Luther Oconer: they're enjoying their diaries so I was able to piece together all of this narrative and found that you know.

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Luther Oconer: I realized that, as I was looking at their accounts I realized that yes, we did have the same thing in the Philippines.

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Luther Oconer: In this church, you know.

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Luther Oconer: And they were having what they would call Pentecostal meetings or you know they would call the Pentecostal and and there was a lot of powerful accounts.

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Luther Oconer: You know, and it was not just a footnote in history, it was.

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Luther Oconer: It was common interest mainstream they do it every summer.

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Luther Oconer: But then I realized that that you know, the best way to understand methodism in the Philippines is through the lens of politics revivals because if you look at through that lens you'll be able to understand all of the major event that and in its history.

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Luther Oconer: it's almost somewhat connected to all of this main events that we've known for so for so long in the Philippines, but there's, no, no one has attempted to do you see interpretative lengths.

332
00:37:51.840 --> 00:38:02.190
Luther Oconer: To stay them and so now I got this tool, you know the holiness revivals as my interpretative lengths to understand the history better.

333
00:38:03.810 --> 00:38:06.240
Luther Oconer: And so, so that was my dissertation.

334
00:38:09.240 --> 00:38:10.980
Andy Miller III: In how it blends with your own party.

335
00:38:10.980 --> 00:38:14.130
Andy Miller III: yeah I felt like to be me I kind of felt like oh.

336
00:38:14.190 --> 00:38:15.270
Luther Oconer: I, as I see, I see a.

337
00:38:15.270 --> 00:38:16.140
Andy Miller III: Question like should I see.

338
00:38:17.190 --> 00:38:17.520
Luther Oconer: me.

339
00:38:17.640 --> 00:38:19.500
Andy Miller III: But it blends so.

340
00:38:19.500 --> 00:38:22.170
Andy Miller III: Well, with something that is true and real.

341
00:38:22.380 --> 00:38:36.990
Andy Miller III: And yes, that's what we emphasize here Wesley biblical seminary is actually we it's a in our faculty manual that once a semester everybody every Professor will testify to god's spirit work in their life.

342
00:38:37.140 --> 00:38:54.750
Andy Miller III: Then the role of sanctify and grace and not just progressively sanctify us and how that comes in specific moments of crisis and then to call punch students to as jealousy says in scripture a salvation seek it now, and until that that's that's a requirement as me as the.

343
00:38:56.490 --> 00:38:56.850
Luther Oconer: Second.

344
00:38:56.910 --> 00:38:59.970
Andy Miller III: is not that it has to like be a turn key result.

345
00:39:00.120 --> 00:39:06.930
Andy Miller III: Man we emphasize the role of story in that indeed amazingly to discovery more in our research.

346
00:39:07.050 --> 00:39:21.210
Andy Miller III: Now i'm I one thing I found helpful your paper and this comes out in a book on holiness in Pentecostal studies edited by David bundy and Jordan hammond and I am fascinated by the distinctions you make.

347
00:39:21.330 --> 00:39:22.290
Luther Oconer: A lot of people don't get.

348
00:39:22.350 --> 00:39:31.530
Andy Miller III: get this between the Catholic Saint holiness movement, the radical holiness movement and Wesley and holiness movement.

349
00:39:31.560 --> 00:39:34.830
Andy Miller III: Yes, can you help me understand those distinctions.

350
00:39:35.040 --> 00:39:44.880
Luther Oconer: Yes, beginning with let's begin with the wesleyan holiness movement or less Wesley and Holland expression that would be, you know that would be the classic Wesley understanding.

351
00:39:45.480 --> 00:40:01.590
Luther Oconer: You know that's that would be will usually call eradication is because in Wesley We find this you know in this understanding of Holiness, who is when he talks about entire sanctification of the possibility of the eradication of the sinful nature.

352
00:40:02.100 --> 00:40:02.310
Right.

353
00:40:03.540 --> 00:40:18.420
Luther Oconer: So what we see in worse is this optimism optimism of grace the possibility that the sinful nature can be can be totally overcome again, partly because of this new mythology he.

354
00:40:18.630 --> 00:40:25.470
Luther Oconer: You know his soccer geology is understanding of salvation is closely linked to his understanding of the work of the Holy Spirit.

355
00:40:26.850 --> 00:40:28.620
Luther Oconer: So I think so that I think that kind of.

356
00:40:29.640 --> 00:40:41.310
Luther Oconer: gives you know helps us distinguish methodism from pentecostalism because pentecostalism slowly now when you hear about new mythology it's mostly about the supernatural stuff you know healing and all of that.

357
00:40:41.820 --> 00:40:48.060
Luther Oconer: But with West the the new mythological stuff is mostly ingrained in his solitary ology.

358
00:40:49.140 --> 00:40:58.920
Luther Oconer: And that allows you to have more much more optimism there in the possibility of the eradication of a sinful nature, but then you move on to.

359
00:41:00.240 --> 00:41:01.800
Luther Oconer: You will want to the classic.

360
00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:05.280
Luther Oconer: yeah the kids classic movement it's much more of a.

361
00:41:06.390 --> 00:41:16.170
Luther Oconer: it's more of a middle way with when the the wesleyan holiness understanding and the reformed understanding of Holiness, because in the reform understanding.

362
00:41:17.340 --> 00:41:23.550
Luther Oconer: there's this understanding that you know the sinful nature cannot be overcome, it cannot be eradicated.

363
00:41:24.900 --> 00:41:25.380
Luther Oconer: You know.

364
00:41:26.520 --> 00:41:26.970
Luther Oconer: So.

365
00:41:27.030 --> 00:41:28.680
Andy Miller III: There, so you know lessened like.

366
00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:32.610
Luther Oconer: Our lesson yes right yeah yes all expressing yeah.

367
00:41:32.700 --> 00:41:33.210
Andy Miller III: Even though.

368
00:41:33.840 --> 00:41:34.050
yeah.

369
00:41:35.880 --> 00:41:36.870
Luther Oconer: Yes, yeah.

370
00:41:37.980 --> 00:41:40.980
Andy Miller III: yeah exactly not a saint simultaneously Center right.

371
00:41:41.040 --> 00:41:49.590
Luther Oconer: Yes, yes, and then the list for the Lutheran sense there's this understanding the ones are justified already fully sanctified.

372
00:41:49.980 --> 00:41:50.400
Luther Oconer: You know.

373
00:41:50.460 --> 00:41:59.670
Luther Oconer: Right, but then there's also that understanding of sanctification in there, since that you're not going to that that the sinful nature will never be overcome, I listened to reform sense.

374
00:42:01.260 --> 00:42:02.700
Luther Oconer: And, but then.

375
00:42:04.050 --> 00:42:16.020
Luther Oconer: You know, but then the Catholic movement seems to be a middle way via media between between that reform, understanding and the eradication understanding in the wesleyan holiness sense.

376
00:42:16.740 --> 00:42:30.660
Luther Oconer: By see by agreeing or by acknowledging that, yes, sin cannot be cannot be totally you know eradicated, but, but it can be suppressed.

377
00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:32.490
Andy Miller III: Right right right.

378
00:42:32.550 --> 00:42:42.480
Luther Oconer: So, so the key words it's not built in the lesson and all that it's eradication in in the Catholic understanding it's about suppression, because, like you're suppressing.

379
00:42:42.990 --> 00:42:52.410
Luther Oconer: And, and one of the ways I explained the distinction is this illustration used by team stall barn Bishop team stubborn, he was.

380
00:42:53.670 --> 00:43:01.080
Luther Oconer: One of our early we went through the Bishop who founded the Madison Madison in the Philippines, you know the amazing beings from yeah from India.

381
00:43:02.250 --> 00:43:05.910
Luther Oconer: And he's amanda bishop, but he was more up as classic.

382
00:43:06.360 --> 00:43:19.770
Luther Oconer: person okay uh and he wrote a book the tricks of Pentecost we landed here on this book published in 18 8099 is a matter of this vision, but he wrote a book on the church on Pentecost.

383
00:43:21.240 --> 00:43:31.890
Luther Oconer: Basically, talking about all the rest, but classic Holiness, and then and then he CITES an illustration there, whereby he talks about a farmer.

384
00:43:33.240 --> 00:43:42.690
Luther Oconer: Having a conversation with another farmer about you know, having we'd seen this garden, you know you know he plans and then we'll turn up and then the the other farmer said.

385
00:43:44.340 --> 00:43:45.150
Luther Oconer: You know what.

386
00:43:47.070 --> 00:43:47.460
Luther Oconer: If.

387
00:43:48.780 --> 00:43:51.000
Luther Oconer: You can actually eradicate.

388
00:43:52.830 --> 00:43:55.350
Luther Oconer: Those leads if you just.

389
00:43:56.730 --> 00:44:01.020
Luther Oconer: You know if you pick up the roads pull them out, you know.

390
00:44:02.370 --> 00:44:16.260
Luther Oconer: And, and you know and never come back and I can like that basically that's kind of shows and Wesley and holiness understand it, but then another guy showed up and said, you know why that's you know that's administration, my friends.

391
00:44:18.660 --> 00:44:22.230
Luther Oconer: Because if you pull them out they're gonna come back again, you know.

392
00:44:24.180 --> 00:44:26.940
Luther Oconer: I forgot to mention the guy the guy was talking about.

393
00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:41.310
Luther Oconer: You know, burning them there you go burning they're not pulling them up burning them yeah burning them so that's the Wesley and harness understanding, but then the third guy comes, and this is the classic guy and he said, you know that's a bad illustration, my friend.

394
00:44:42.330 --> 00:44:49.830
Luther Oconer: You know, yes, you burn them, but then this and then come back to what motivates my proposition, why did you keep the fire burning.

395
00:44:51.480 --> 00:44:53.430
Luther Oconer: that's that's a pressure, you know.

396
00:44:55.110 --> 00:44:57.150
Luther Oconer: Though so that's the basic understanding.

397
00:44:57.510 --> 00:45:04.110
Luther Oconer: And so, so what you find in the classic move movement is the language you know that that term commonly used as.

398
00:45:04.410 --> 00:45:09.780
Luther Oconer: You know the abiding life, you know abiding in the spirit the spirit filled life.

399
00:45:11.010 --> 00:45:14.100
Luther Oconer: To kind of indicate a much more of a.

400
00:45:15.990 --> 00:45:24.840
Luther Oconer: You know it's like an ongoing thing is to kind of show that you know by being kicked out of the Holy Spirit that's, the only way, you can suppress.

401
00:45:26.310 --> 00:45:28.620
Luther Oconer: The the sinful nature from manifesting.

402
00:45:29.910 --> 00:45:32.640
Luther Oconer: In your life, but then it will never disappear as long as your lead.

403
00:45:33.720 --> 00:45:34.980
Luther Oconer: You will always be there.

404
00:45:35.130 --> 00:45:42.060
Luther Oconer: But in the wesleyan sense, no, it will it will, it will be arriving here, it will disappear, it will overcome it.

405
00:45:43.110 --> 00:45:54.720
Luther Oconer: yeah so that's So those are the distinction when investing in holiness and and Catholic and then what about radical holidays radical holiness comes more from the wesleyan stream the wesleyan higher scream.

406
00:45:55.860 --> 00:46:04.500
Luther Oconer: But then there they give a lot of emphasis on the eradication, they will call hyper eradication is.

407
00:46:04.890 --> 00:46:15.330
Luther Oconer: OK, you know very the hyper eradication is and then you also add two to two main teachings to them, they believe in divine healing.

408
00:46:15.750 --> 00:46:18.090
Luther Oconer: Right and pre willing to listen.

409
00:46:18.570 --> 00:46:20.610
Luther Oconer: Yes, so that's The other factor.

410
00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:21.390
Luther Oconer: So it's.

411
00:46:21.600 --> 00:46:21.960
Andy Miller III: pretty much.

412
00:46:23.190 --> 00:46:27.180
Andy Miller III: In the radical holiness movement is that dispensation pre millennials.

413
00:46:27.330 --> 00:46:29.250
Andy Miller III: Or is it MAS doric typo.

414
00:46:29.370 --> 00:46:38.580
Luther Oconer: yeah it's more up dispensation of his biggest biggest it appeared at a time when the specimen sensationalism appeared in the country.

415
00:46:39.060 --> 00:46:41.820
Luther Oconer: So there were a whole this folks who embrace that.

416
00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:44.280
Luther Oconer: That understand.

417
00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:46.110
Luther Oconer: yeah.

418
00:46:46.260 --> 00:46:47.910
Andy Miller III: They went up for interrupter yeah.

419
00:46:48.780 --> 00:46:54.450
Luther Oconer: And it comes in different degrees in morrison I don't see a lot of that in this language.

420
00:46:54.780 --> 00:47:00.000
Luther Oconer: But he wrote a book on you know, on the second company he wrote a book on.

421
00:47:01.050 --> 00:47:06.660
Luther Oconer: The world's getting worse, he said word get the better the words the words getting worse and you know.

422
00:47:06.690 --> 00:47:06.930
yeah.

423
00:47:08.310 --> 00:47:18.000
Luther Oconer: But then his conclusion was the world's getting worse, so that puts them in the Premier League Angeles stream and so, so this rambling and his name it's more about that.

424
00:47:18.240 --> 00:47:24.030
Luther Oconer: You know it's it's I guess the product of what happened after World War one.

425
00:47:24.330 --> 00:47:26.040
Luther Oconer: The great war is a lot of.

426
00:47:26.250 --> 00:47:40.830
Luther Oconer: A lot of evangelicals are used to be much more optimistic about the future became became a millennial this because you know they begin to see that the world was getting worse and worse.

427
00:47:42.360 --> 00:47:47.130
Luther Oconer: And he didn't have look for if you have World War one going on, you know, a.

428
00:47:47.160 --> 00:47:48.990
Luther Oconer: And I think that's like the morrison.

429
00:47:49.020 --> 00:47:51.360
Andy Miller III: founds asbury you know seminary.

430
00:47:51.450 --> 00:47:53.340
Andy Miller III: yeah 1823 since.

431
00:47:53.700 --> 00:47:55.050
Andy Miller III: you're years ago, you know from now.

432
00:47:55.170 --> 00:47:55.860
Luther Oconer: But that's like.

433
00:47:55.950 --> 00:47:59.100
Andy Miller III: that's it period of history what's happening like you were where we are.

434
00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:01.620
Andy Miller III: In between World War one and World War Two and that.

435
00:48:01.650 --> 00:48:07.590
Andy Miller III: yeah dramatically affects what's happening so okay so so but date so they had the radical.

436
00:48:08.940 --> 00:48:09.660
Andy Miller III: holiness movement.

437
00:48:09.930 --> 00:48:12.960
Andy Miller III: He always like double down on the replication language.

438
00:48:13.410 --> 00:48:17.550
Andy Miller III: A little bit surprised to hear you say like it, because even the Wesley and holiness stream.

439
00:48:17.790 --> 00:48:19.950
Andy Miller III: Not often thinking of them with that language.

440
00:48:19.950 --> 00:48:20.670
Andy Miller III: Right yes.

441
00:48:20.850 --> 00:48:21.960
Andy Miller III: But when you said that.

442
00:48:22.350 --> 00:48:24.510
Andy Miller III: kind of radical holiness movement over.

443
00:48:24.870 --> 00:48:26.190
Andy Miller III: Over Yes, this is that.

444
00:48:26.250 --> 00:48:27.030
Luther Oconer: Yes, 3 million.

445
00:48:27.630 --> 00:48:28.590
Luther Oconer: And healing yeah.

446
00:48:30.270 --> 00:48:49.560
Luther Oconer: And I think part of that doubling down was also the result of the um the immense popularity of classic you know so they were reacting against classic because they're see oh wow this, this is a direct affront after the call it Martin quality heresy wesleyan heresy the classic movement.

447
00:48:50.700 --> 00:49:00.720
Luther Oconer: You find that in my article because it a you know, a heresy you know in and and he can avoid the fact that there were students, as somebody.

448
00:49:02.070 --> 00:49:04.380
Luther Oconer: who hold to the suppression is understanding.

449
00:49:07.380 --> 00:49:16.110
Luther Oconer: And he would say you know in in first john first john one verse seven it gently that say you know the the blood of Christ.

450
00:49:17.490 --> 00:49:22.170
Luther Oconer: suppress suppress all sin, but he said cleanses us from all sin method.

451
00:49:27.060 --> 00:49:35.910
Luther Oconer: So you know, but again it's I think it's part of the reaction against against African and they're finding Catholic manifesting within methodism itself.

452
00:49:37.050 --> 00:49:45.960
Luther Oconer: And so they tend to push back and so that's why you get the hyper eradication is in them uh.

453
00:49:46.050 --> 00:49:47.130
Andy Miller III: yeah so this connect.

454
00:49:49.170 --> 00:49:50.520
Andy Miller III: We could go on for a long time.

455
00:49:50.520 --> 00:49:51.030
Luther Oconer: Exactly.

456
00:49:51.060 --> 00:49:52.440
Andy Miller III: really appreciate these distinctions.

457
00:49:52.830 --> 00:49:54.810
Andy Miller III: So, but we pick up the world tour of.

458
00:49:54.810 --> 00:49:57.360
Andy Miller III: evangelism so morrison comes.

459
00:49:57.480 --> 00:49:58.740
Andy Miller III: and brings this.

460
00:49:58.770 --> 00:49:59.460
Luther Oconer: Different yes.

461
00:49:59.520 --> 00:50:01.740
Andy Miller III: Active yeah the radical.

462
00:50:02.340 --> 00:50:03.420
Andy Miller III: holiness movement.

463
00:50:03.600 --> 00:50:06.210
Andy Miller III: So, like let's let's see if we can tie up like what happened could.

464
00:50:06.270 --> 00:50:10.320
Andy Miller III: But it's not sorry to have to say, tied up because, like it's lead us to a place where.

465
00:50:10.740 --> 00:50:13.050
Andy Miller III: good thing happens, we like to see happen here as well.

466
00:50:13.080 --> 00:50:21.480
Luther Oconer: Yes, exactly exactly yeah because he encountered that, particularly when when he went to India, you know, because by that time you know.

467
00:50:22.350 --> 00:50:34.470
Luther Oconer: And I wrote a paper on this is also on on under the manifestations of the holiness movement in the madness missions in India and and the conclusion I got was in my conclusion was.

468
00:50:35.010 --> 00:50:52.260
Luther Oconer: They became more classic in India oh yeah because of their connection with with other denominations mostly you know those coming from the reformed side, and so the way that they were able to kind of unite with a different missions was embrace Catholic and.

469
00:50:52.380 --> 00:50:53.040
Andy Miller III: And I enjoy.

470
00:50:53.070 --> 00:51:01.920
Luther Oconer: But, and then by the time by the time cat morrison arrived there in length and then and does his thing revival on the eradication is you know.

471
00:51:02.370 --> 00:51:18.480
Luther Oconer: And people will start commenting I would see you know comments on on like the Indian witness that's the paper they had in the monasteries in India and what someone said, you know I never saw someone which about you know about the pastor of the possibility of.

472
00:51:19.590 --> 00:51:20.850
Luther Oconer: places entire sanctification.

473
00:51:23.250 --> 00:51:25.980
Luther Oconer: There is that eradication of the sinful nature, you know.

474
00:51:27.360 --> 00:51:35.400
Luther Oconer: It was pouring into them, and this was a Methodist church, you know and so that's I think that was the legacy of morrison it was he tried to bring them back.

475
00:51:37.980 --> 00:51:40.080
Luther Oconer: On demand it's got the more optimism on.

476
00:51:40.110 --> 00:51:41.340
Luther Oconer: On that understanding.

477
00:51:41.730 --> 00:51:44.070
Luther Oconer: Of the possibilities yeah oh yes.

478
00:51:44.730 --> 00:51:45.600
Luther Oconer: yeah exactly.

479
00:51:45.750 --> 00:51:47.790
Andy Miller III: The same like pattern keeps coming back and forth.

480
00:51:47.820 --> 00:51:49.110
Andy Miller III: yeah my own denomination.

481
00:51:49.590 --> 00:51:52.560
Andy Miller III: A period where we had clear eradication language.

482
00:51:53.400 --> 00:51:54.450
Andy Miller III: And then, it was taken out.

483
00:51:54.570 --> 00:52:00.300
Andy Miller III: yeah there's been waves where it's like I don't know if you call it classic understanding, but but but close.

484
00:52:00.360 --> 00:52:02.640
Andy Miller III: to it and then coming back and forth.

485
00:52:02.790 --> 00:52:07.710
Andy Miller III: And he's interesting one of the key leaders, was a very good friend, like of of morrison.

486
00:52:07.860 --> 00:52:09.720
Andy Miller III: Was not Samuel Logan brendel.

487
00:52:10.020 --> 00:52:13.440
Andy Miller III: Oh, who was murdered this same movement and it came from the Salvation Army.

488
00:52:13.470 --> 00:52:14.730
Andy Miller III: Yes, I always find it interesting.

489
00:52:14.940 --> 00:52:18.690
Andy Miller III: interesting way that often get they often get rediscovered.

490
00:52:18.780 --> 00:52:25.440
Andy Miller III: Yes, hopeful that, like this message, of course, can be connected to our own sense of.

491
00:52:25.470 --> 00:52:26.490
Luther Oconer: god's exactly work.

492
00:52:26.700 --> 00:52:31.620
Luther Oconer: yeah yeah yeah for morrison you know I you know he he.

493
00:52:32.670 --> 00:52:36.570
Luther Oconer: He definitely was moving in the radical and extreme.

494
00:52:37.620 --> 00:52:40.860
Luther Oconer: But he was more big on the on that eradication.

495
00:52:42.840 --> 00:52:50.490
Luther Oconer: Well, not so much on the healing I never I never saw anything about him doing healing talking about dealing.

496
00:52:51.810 --> 00:53:02.310
Luther Oconer: Although you'll find you'll find the accounts of that in the Pentecostal Harold from from people writing to the editor and you know talking about their divine healing experiencing healing.

497
00:53:02.700 --> 00:53:19.440
Luther Oconer: So I think I guess he allowed them to be published there, but from him personally greetings right into this during that period within the during the world tour and look at you know, a Pentecostal hair 19 1019 1909 1910 1911 I didn't see anything from him.

498
00:53:19.590 --> 00:53:22.080
Luther Oconer: Speaking about divine eating but there's a lot of him.

499
00:53:22.470 --> 00:53:27.060
Luther Oconer: Talking about a pre millennial is the second coming.

500
00:53:28.260 --> 00:53:36.690
Luther Oconer: But not not during the tour, it was mostly about eradication yeah but but you'll find a lot of pre millennial hmm later on.

501
00:53:38.460 --> 00:53:49.650
Luther Oconer: So I think it would be rightly be categorized within the radical radical holiness stream but somehow managed to stay within mainstream methodism.

502
00:53:49.830 --> 00:53:51.090
Andy Miller III: Yes, yes.

503
00:53:51.390 --> 00:53:53.790
Andy Miller III: Yes, yes, still had that connection, it was still.

504
00:53:53.790 --> 00:53:54.390
Andy Miller III: Yes, this.

505
00:53:54.450 --> 00:53:56.370
Luther Oconer: method it's like figure yes.

506
00:53:56.520 --> 00:53:57.750
Luther Oconer: we're out there, exactly.

507
00:53:58.440 --> 00:54:01.290
Luther Oconer: And he goes this crap yeah yeah because it's.

508
00:54:01.740 --> 00:54:02.430
Luther Oconer: Good again.

509
00:54:02.520 --> 00:54:03.450
Andy Miller III: model right.

510
00:54:03.720 --> 00:54:04.500
Andy Miller III: Yes, he's.

511
00:54:04.710 --> 00:54:06.090
Luther Oconer: he's got the big picture.

512
00:54:06.420 --> 00:54:09.780
Andy Miller III: He wasn't also it wasn't it He appealed.

513
00:54:09.990 --> 00:54:11.700
Andy Miller III: To more than just the Holiness.

514
00:54:11.790 --> 00:54:12.360
Luther Oconer: Movement yeah.

515
00:54:12.810 --> 00:54:14.820
Andy Miller III: His heel against modernism.

516
00:54:14.880 --> 00:54:16.200
Andy Miller III: yeah pretty millennial ISM.

517
00:54:16.380 --> 00:54:18.030
Luther Oconer: Probably noticing improv yes.

518
00:54:18.090 --> 00:54:18.780
Andy Miller III: Robin way.

519
00:54:18.990 --> 00:54:25.230
Luther Oconer: In a broader way yeah I mean it, I mean it's interesting he said he was able to operate within mainstream methodism.

520
00:54:26.400 --> 00:54:29.730
Luther Oconer: But then had a lot of friends in the radical holiness stream.

521
00:54:30.360 --> 00:54:38.040
Luther Oconer: You know yeah especially folks from god's Bible school which not too far from you know from wilmore yes, of course, it was in Cincinnati.

522
00:54:39.720 --> 00:54:42.750
Luther Oconer: So you know you with that's where all Ms came from.

523
00:54:43.770 --> 00:54:45.450
Luther Oconer: oriental missionary society.

524
00:54:46.980 --> 00:54:50.400
Luther Oconer: And so he's kind of look at us as a friend in that movement.

525
00:54:50.640 --> 00:54:51.120
Luther Oconer: You know.

526
00:54:52.860 --> 00:54:56.310
Luther Oconer: it's interesting how I was able to do all of that, you know.

527
00:54:58.830 --> 00:55:03.030
Luther Oconer: And I mean it's a really he's really a fascinating figure.

528
00:55:04.230 --> 00:55:10.260
Luther Oconer: And i'm not you know i'm gonna i'm not surprised, why, during his time he was able to.

529
00:55:11.430 --> 00:55:14.250
Luther Oconer: He was able to kind of revive asbury college.

530
00:55:14.430 --> 00:55:18.150
Luther Oconer: Right, yes, he was he was in a big mess at that time.

531
00:55:18.780 --> 00:55:21.270
Luther Oconer: Financially, but you know, he was able to.

532
00:55:23.190 --> 00:55:23.820
Luther Oconer: kind of.

533
00:55:25.170 --> 00:55:30.300
Luther Oconer: Alice you know, during his leadership he was able to kind of lead up the school.

534
00:55:31.320 --> 00:55:37.020
Luther Oconer: Out of financial trouble and then later on, he was able to establish a seminary.

535
00:55:38.550 --> 00:55:39.270
Luther Oconer: yeah.

536
00:55:39.480 --> 00:55:41.460
Andy Miller III: I mean all things went both institution.

537
00:55:41.460 --> 00:55:43.260
Andy Miller III: We if you would not exist without.

538
00:55:43.290 --> 00:55:44.490
Andy Miller III: yeah his leadership.

539
00:55:44.520 --> 00:55:53.460
Andy Miller III: Obviously, exactly, if you found it interesting dissertation by Mike long no journalist journalism professor, but he looked at the way that.

540
00:55:55.350 --> 00:55:58.020
Andy Miller III: He morrison was able to use a Pentecostal.

541
00:55:58.020 --> 00:55:59.610
Andy Miller III: Harold night a group.

542
00:55:59.940 --> 00:56:02.250
Andy Miller III: So save the school financially.

543
00:56:02.400 --> 00:56:04.260
Andy Miller III: Exactly yeah I think that that's.

544
00:56:04.770 --> 00:56:05.700
Andy Miller III: It was impart.

545
00:56:06.120 --> 00:56:06.900
Andy Miller III: This bro.

546
00:56:07.200 --> 00:56:10.620
Andy Miller III: I think my my little summary thought i'll let you give a closing thought that too.

547
00:56:10.800 --> 00:56:16.440
Andy Miller III: is like this pan Wesley and movement is doesn't necessarily need to be connected to institutions.

548
00:56:16.530 --> 00:56:21.420
Andy Miller III: yeah at the same time there's there's something going on, but it does need a uniting connection.

549
00:56:21.510 --> 00:56:28.860
Andy Miller III: yeah I know I don't want to take away from your emphasis of what was able to happen in this world tour, but it was this message.

550
00:56:29.100 --> 00:56:30.390
Luther Oconer: And secondly.

551
00:56:30.750 --> 00:56:32.490
Luther Oconer: Exactly closing.

552
00:56:32.820 --> 00:56:33.570
Andy Miller III: closing comment.

553
00:56:33.600 --> 00:56:34.650
Luther Oconer: On that, and then I guess.

554
00:56:34.650 --> 00:56:35.280
Andy Miller III: question for you.

555
00:56:35.490 --> 00:56:42.180
Luther Oconer: Yes, precisely, you know it's really the message the message that he carried resonated with people.

556
00:56:43.560 --> 00:56:45.180
Luther Oconer: The message of offered hope.

557
00:56:45.750 --> 00:56:55.020
Luther Oconer: Yes, you know we're seeing this reality that people experience in their lives, and they want to get out of that reality that that scene.

558
00:56:56.400 --> 00:57:01.140
Luther Oconer: and Martin offer the way you know that made sense to them.

559
00:57:02.820 --> 00:57:14.970
Luther Oconer: And it was it resonated with people it resonated with folks from the whole one panelist in connection that are subscribing to a paper you know, obviously they love what he was writing while he was doing.

560
00:57:16.980 --> 00:57:19.320
Luther Oconer: He was a successful evangelist preaching.

561
00:57:20.250 --> 00:57:24.270
Luther Oconer: What at the same time, when he went to the went when he went for it world or quote Unquote.

562
00:57:27.030 --> 00:57:30.990
Luther Oconer: You know the mess, you know this, this is the same thing, the same.

563
00:57:32.610 --> 00:57:41.340
Luther Oconer: welcoming you the way, how was it Nice was welcome in the US, you know, it was the same the same outpouring of support.

564
00:57:41.730 --> 00:57:48.900
Luther Oconer: yeah so it was manifested as well in those in those parts of the world, not even an AMA just talking about.

565
00:57:50.340 --> 00:57:57.750
Luther Oconer: American audience, you know he he preached to Filipino audiences through vermin, you know to Indians.

566
00:57:58.860 --> 00:58:10.230
Luther Oconer: You know, international folks a business account where pull up you know amazing things happening on the outer and mostly it's not you know you have the mixture of.

567
00:58:10.650 --> 00:58:16.980
Luther Oconer: Americans Europeans there, particularly in India, but for the most part natives female.

568
00:58:17.580 --> 00:58:34.590
Luther Oconer: or nationals responding to his message, so I guess I think that's, the key to a successful was this is the message that he carried, and sometimes we tend to not recognize that people tend to look at more on the on the on the outside.

569
00:58:35.100 --> 00:58:36.660
Luther Oconer: yeah, if you like, and I love that.

570
00:58:37.140 --> 00:58:51.540
Luther Oconer: And I think that's one of the things that I did when when I did my study is to really recognize if you're going to study, people who are going to study missionaries or personalities look at what they're teaching look at the content, the content.

571
00:58:52.860 --> 00:58:59.100
Luther Oconer: Because more and more more often or not we ignore those we ignore that you know in our when we do studies on people.

572
00:59:00.960 --> 00:59:01.290
Luther Oconer: yeah.

573
00:59:01.440 --> 00:59:03.030
Andy Miller III: So that's great Luther Thank you so.

574
00:59:03.030 --> 00:59:06.210
Andy Miller III: much for your time you're always ask people in connected this idea I say.

575
00:59:06.750 --> 00:59:08.400
Andy Miller III: story cuz yeah theological.

576
00:59:09.240 --> 00:59:14.670
Andy Miller III: yeah there's more than just salvation but they're also more to this story of Luther o'connor than most people know.

577
00:59:15.180 --> 00:59:15.690
Luther Oconer: Oh yes.

578
00:59:16.800 --> 00:59:22.860
Luther Oconer: Just just like more than one of the things that attracted me to him, you know, he was 35 police and evangelists and.

579
00:59:23.280 --> 00:59:28.530
Luther Oconer: yeah and I do Emma Emma Emma I would say, a revivalist as well, I.

580
00:59:28.620 --> 00:59:37.140
Luther Oconer: am part of the things that I do not only teach in the seminary and not only do R amp D, research and development, so to speak.

581
00:59:38.190 --> 00:59:39.360
Luther Oconer: But I also.

582
00:59:40.440 --> 00:59:46.860
Luther Oconer: Particularly in in in the past six years, five or six years, I began.

583
00:59:47.970 --> 00:59:53.460
Luther Oconer: I began finding myself more in the pulpit preaching doing events.

584
00:59:54.570 --> 00:59:58.860
Luther Oconer: And also, I started finding myself doing more, a lot of divine healing.

585
01:00:00.180 --> 01:00:01.590
Luther Oconer: The mind healing workshops.

586
01:00:03.090 --> 01:00:05.190
Luther Oconer: Not just in my preaching but also.

587
01:00:06.450 --> 01:00:14.430
Luther Oconer: Because imagine when when when was this probably around 2016 and I recently found myself being invited.

588
01:00:16.200 --> 01:00:23.520
Luther Oconer: To do divine healing workshops in churches more than I was invited to do workshops on methodism.

589
01:00:28.290 --> 01:00:33.960
Luther Oconer: yeah the divine healing part you know aspect in my ministry base that you know.

590
01:00:33.990 --> 01:00:37.020
Luther Oconer: yeah it seems outrageous you know.

591
01:00:38.400 --> 01:00:43.350
Luther Oconer: didn't seek me out more for that at least prior to the pandemic that was the case.

592
01:00:44.970 --> 01:00:49.590
Luther Oconer: yeah and, and so I I really find this exciting because.

593
01:00:51.090 --> 01:01:03.750
Luther Oconer: Because prior to be you know entering the actually the Academy, the academe I was a pastor I was faster in the Church, I was a youth revival less and less what what got me in trouble, by the way.

594
01:01:06.060 --> 01:01:14.940
Luther Oconer: By the way, about the anyway, you know I thought I was starting in the ministry and then to find myself coming full circle just about five to six years ago.

595
01:01:15.390 --> 01:01:33.420
Luther Oconer: And one of my, I guess, one of my highlights in my in my ministry was in 2016 when I was invited to the Philippines in the United venture in the Philippines to to be one of the features are to preach at the.

596
01:01:34.500 --> 01:01:42.510
Luther Oconer: What they would call the revived conference that was in Manila, and there were about 12,000 people they're.

597
01:01:42.810 --> 01:01:44.280
Luther Oconer: amazed in that.

598
01:01:44.430 --> 01:01:50.520
Luther Oconer: That stage room and, as I was standing there in front of the of those people, I was really terrified.

599
01:01:51.600 --> 01:01:54.420
Andy Miller III: But at the same time, I was kind of remind them, you know.

600
01:01:55.410 --> 01:02:02.550
Luther Oconer: I remind myself, you know you were just writing about revival leads to every viable in this country, you know, a battery saving the.

601
01:02:03.720 --> 01:02:08.790
Luther Oconer: Bible is same as the wholeness movement in the Philippines and now here you are you're doing are divided one.

602
01:02:08.970 --> 01:02:13.650
Luther Oconer: wow and you know it's very humbling to think about that you know it's.

603
01:02:13.710 --> 01:02:14.670
Andy Miller III: it's yeah.

604
01:02:15.150 --> 01:02:18.870
Luther Oconer: Because I saw my screen, I was kind of seeing myself more as a professor.

605
01:02:19.530 --> 01:02:22.350
Luther Oconer: right, then, and then suddenly yeah and then suddenly.

606
01:02:23.160 --> 01:02:24.990
Luther Oconer: being given that opportunity so.

607
01:02:25.020 --> 01:02:28.860
Luther Oconer: yeah I just thank God for that, where i'm seeing myself now yeah.

608
01:02:29.400 --> 01:02:33.900
Andy Miller III: Oh, I love you know I when I left I left a local church through lucious.

609
01:02:34.350 --> 01:02:44.040
Andy Miller III: me and I just been about a year since I did, and I entered the Academy myself and I wondered about that and I just look back and I think I probably preached more.

610
01:02:44.250 --> 01:02:45.390
Andy Miller III: yeah past year.

611
01:02:45.600 --> 01:02:45.840
Andy Miller III: yeah.

612
01:02:46.110 --> 01:02:47.910
Luther Oconer: When I was a local church pastor exactly it's.

613
01:02:47.910 --> 01:02:51.360
Andy Miller III: amazing how God continues to keep these doors open for the way.

614
01:02:51.510 --> 01:02:52.110
Luther Oconer: He wants to work.

615
01:02:52.200 --> 01:02:53.580
Andy Miller III: Through us and i'm so thankful user.

616
01:02:53.790 --> 01:03:00.870
Andy Miller III: name or how god's using you as you're you're teaching your scholarship and you're preaching and for the way that you're open to spiritual so thanks so much for coming.

617
01:03:01.020 --> 01:03:03.420
Andy Miller III: On board His story podcast it's a blessing to have you.

618
01:03:04.320 --> 01:03:09.630
Luther Oconer: thanks again and the taxi Thank you all thanks for having me God bless.

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