Hymns, Hymnals, and Worship with Dr. Jonathan Powers

Do we need a new hymnal? What does a collection of worship materials do for the church? I am thankful that the broad pan-Wesleyan movement will be united by “Our Great Redeemer’s Praise,” a new hymnal published by Seedbed. I loved having my friend, Dr. Jonathan Powers, on the podcast to talk about this hymnal. We also talk about the theological significance of UFOs. Check it out here.

Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnh1dt7TJYc

Audio - https://andymilleriii.com/media/podcast

Apple -  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-to-the-story-with-dr-andy-miller/id1569988895?uo=4

Dr. Jonathan Powers is the Assistant Professor of Worship at Asbury Theological Seminary and joined the Asbury Seminary faculty in the summer of 2017. He has a passion for the intersection of liturgy and spiritual formation in the life of the church. He has authored and co-authored several articles, chapters, and books, all published by Seedbed. Jonathan was named the associate dean of the School of Mission and Ministry at Asbury Theological Seminary in the summer of 2022.

Our Great Redeemer’s Praise: https://my.seedbed.com/hymnal/

Jonathan’s Seedbed Author Page: https://seedbed.com/author/jonathan-powers/

Jonathan’s Twitter: @jonboy017

Five Steps to Deeper Teaching and Preaching - I’m excited to share some news with you.  Recently, I updated this PDF document and added a 45-minute teaching video with slides, explaining this tool. It's like a mini-course. If you sign up for my list, I will send this free resource to you. Sign up here - www.AndyMillerIII.com or Five Steps to Deeper Teaching and Preaching.

Today’s episode is brought to you by these two sponsors:

Bill Roberts is a financial advisor, who has been serving the retirement planning and investment needs of individuals, families, non-profits, and churches for 25 years. He is a Certified Financial Planner and accredited investment fiduciary. Bill specializes in working with Salvation Army employees and officers by helping them realize their financial goals.  You can find out more about Bill’s business at www.WilliamHRoberts.com

AND

Wesley Biblical Seminary - Interested in going deeper in your faith? Check out our certificate programs, B.A., M.A.s, M.Div., and D.Min degrees. You will study with world-class faculty and the most racially diverse student body in the country. www.wbs.edu

Thanks too to Phil Laeger for the new podcast music. You can find out about Phil's music at https://www.laeger.net

Transcript:
Welcome to the more to the story podcast we are in for a treat today something that's come around that you probably didn't even know is coming.

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Andy Miller III: And I have my friend, Dr Jonathan powers from asbury theological seminary here with me to talk about it, Jonathan welcome to the podcast.

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Jonathan Powers: Thank you, thanks for having me.

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Andy Miller III: hey Jonathan I go.

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Andy Miller III: way back back to when we both had baggy jeans and we're listening to ska music and I don't know if you were jars of clay and that sort of.

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Andy Miller III: Things and Jonathan was on the road to that in my mind.

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Andy Miller III: A band, let me embarrass you a little bit here.

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Andy Miller III: Today, and after university that I thought was the next jars of clay, I guess.

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Andy Miller III: So Jonathan you come a long ways.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah wow goodness yeah that was fun that's probably a good.

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Jonathan Powers: Good stylistic genre comparison there jars of clay to what we were doing that kind of acoustic folky aggressive stuff but CCM still say is yeah baggy jeans and bleached hair, I had the bleached hair back then to.

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Andy Miller III: drew drew.

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Jonathan Powers: Not anymore.

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Andy Miller III: it's interesting like what can happen in 20 years, so we go from being a i'm going to say a cutting edge Christian.

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Andy Miller III: Contemporary music sensation and asbury university.

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Andy Miller III: To be you know worship professor and now like ordained and the Anglican Church and studying him knowledge, and here we are talking about a new hymnal.

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Andy Miller III: you've had quite a ride so watch out for outline just briefly a little bit of your story what.

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Andy Miller III: What took you through on this path to get where you are, and then I want to talk about this exciting new project, you have.

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Jonathan Powers: Sure yeah you know growing up in the church my dad is a Methodist pastor united Methodist pastor and grew up in more traditional settings in eastern Kentucky that's my backgrounds all Eastern Kentucky and.

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Jonathan Powers: Just loved being in church and singing grew up on hymns.

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Jonathan Powers: My youth pastor started teaching me how to play guitar in youth group, so I could help him lead music at youth Group then eventually I can help with stuff in church every once in a while too so.

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Jonathan Powers: That first got me interested in worship and then as a university was doing the music scene writing songs and touring on the road and different things, and then.

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Jonathan Powers: had a lot of chances to lead in Chapel and hall prayers and.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah from events you know retreats and things really got into that I just loved.

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Andy Miller III: says you're great at it.

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Jonathan Powers: Oh, thank you.

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Andy Miller III: yeah.

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Jonathan Powers: it's been on me my youth pastor really he invested in me to say it's not just about the music, how do you think about worship and the whole of worship and.

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Jonathan Powers: I really appreciate that his name is drew mcneil's campus Minister now at morehead State University.

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Jonathan Powers: And drew is he invested in me so much in that, but it never really left me even in college, I was doing this more performative on the road running.

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Jonathan Powers: But my love was there in you know, in the worship the congregated worship, I didn't like being up front and doing the performance side, I really liked the participatory stuff.

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Jonathan Powers: Right and that that kind of shepherding the congregation's participation.

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Jonathan Powers: So I I just knew that staying in a in a band and doing the performance thing was not me I didn't find satisfaction in it, I didn't hear I didn't since a calling towards it was great in college, so I actually didn't missions work overseas and Uganda, for some time.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah then came back and did youth ministry in North Carolina for a few years and didn't really do music, while I was there I didn't lead music and missed it yeah I really did coming to seminary then after a few years in North Carolina came to seminary and got.

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Jonathan Powers: got in touch with Lester Ruth who was.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah of worship here, and when I started meeting and I started studying worship more academically.

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Jonathan Powers: And started studying lyrical theologies definitely Charles Wesley How does he embody wesleyan theology in his song lyrics.

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Jonathan Powers: In not just a cognitive intellectual kind of way, but even an emotive How does he bring all this together in this really beautiful way.

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Jonathan Powers: So I love that and Lester and I did a lot of studying that and I thought i'd go on and do a PhD and lyrical theology local theology of Charles Wesley but I.

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Jonathan Powers: ended up staying some other things with worship and focused on Robert Weber instead.

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Jonathan Powers: um but that's always been there that's i've always had that love for it and have done a lot of writing and just continual research on lyrical theology, and how music plays into that you know how does music in lyric how do these things work together.

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Andy Miller III: yeah.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah how do they in worship and in this song form of worship and prayer and.

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Jonathan Powers: It yeah I mean part of it started there with Lester and that academic way.

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Jonathan Powers: But i'd say it was also ingrained in me growing up in the church and experiencing it and just loving that aspect of worship that.

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Jonathan Powers: It was kind of a weird thing in some ways to say you know I mean you see it like flash mobs culturally and maybe like a sing along musical or something, but people don't just get together to sing anymore that's not what we do you know.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah so something beautiful about it at church to say we get together and seeing, and we do it passionately, you know.

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Andy Miller III: And yeah.

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Jonathan Powers: So I just love that and i've loved studying it and saying, but it's not just about the passion it's not just about the emotion there's a theological aspect of it because it's for God, you know, this is, this is the.

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Jonathan Powers: congregation coming together, not for fun, but for God and to come before guide it says i've always been fascinated by that and understand well, what does that require of us then so not just well let's sing whatever what does it require of us, and so i'm.

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Jonathan Powers: Looking at stop there.

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Andy Miller III: Let me so like in that in that moment, there is something powerful that happens, as we have ideas in our head ideas that come from the great consensual tradition of the church and then informs like a theology, and these are the most important metaphysical concepts that exists right.

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Andy Miller III: So they're there they're on a page and they're on a screen or on a wall, whatever it is.

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Andy Miller III: And then, all of a sudden, like.

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Andy Miller III: It then enters into a different mystery right like you have a whole nother mystery of music, which I haven't thought about this enough, but like is in itself to me.

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Andy Miller III: Almost a proof for the existence of God here you have this blend pitch in time and then you throw in all the dynamics of like what happens when people commute like you communally seen.

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Andy Miller III: it's like you have all those things happening together it it's not just a motive like this is a singing congregational is a theological act.

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Andy Miller III: And I love I love what it what it does for us.

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Andy Miller III: So I think it's it I like how you're you're identifying there something that you know you are part of that you experience, but now it's more fully been thought through and you're like Okay, what is that and investigating it.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah it's such a beautiful image of the Church, if you think of it as many bodies, but one sound right like when you hear something you can hear many things, I mean that's like the Trinity that's what JEREMY bagby says yeah music.

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Andy Miller III: helps us, on the other, stick JEREMY begbies at Cambridge Cambridge strain.

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Jonathan Powers: Of yes.

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Andy Miller III: musician and.

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Jonathan Powers: yellow agenda.

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Andy Miller III: And so, if you haven't found yet name is spelled like those are my people my audience and Salvation Army, the early biographer of William booth bagby be EG be IE I always wonder if they're related but so.

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Andy Miller III: But yeah.

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Andy Miller III: I see, I know you and I know JEREMY bagby.

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Andy Miller III: yeah I want to make sure people.

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Andy Miller III: may be combined his name to keep going down.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah no that's great yeah but I love that theological aspects of music that many.

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Jonathan Powers: Voices contribute many, many sounds come together, so you have distinction like you would say in the person's of the Trinity.

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Andy Miller III: yeah yeah um.

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Jonathan Powers: But you also have a unity, because you only hear one thing you know.

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Jonathan Powers: And so, also just the body of Christ so think of it as the body of Christ, many Members, but one body it's hard for us to visualize that physically right.

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Jonathan Powers: I mean you can get there with like what was the the power Rangers The thing that.

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Jonathan Powers: comes together, and all this, but I still don't get it, because you still have these.

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Andy Miller III: is, I think, Jonathan you're betraying our generation.

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Andy Miller III: Okay, I got because power Rangers was not our generation.

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voltron.

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Andy Miller III: let's get this dress priorities.

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Jonathan Powers: So trigger.

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Andy Miller III: A bowl jobs, the same concept, but whatever reason didn't take off like the eight versions of power Rangers.

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Jonathan Powers: Okay, so true yeah.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah, but I think about that, like the visual images don't quite her puzzled P, you know you have all the pieces that come together into one picture.

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Jonathan Powers: That kind of gets there but music just has a different way of doing that that like you're immersed in it you're surrounded by it, it brings you into something so much larger than yourself there's it's just beautiful.

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Jonathan Powers: How that comes together, and so I think of that and I also think of you know CS Lewis and jr Tolkien are it's fascinating and the worlds that they create so you take CS Lewis has you know most popular world is narnia.

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Jonathan Powers: And jr Tolkien his most popular world is middle Earth.

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Jonathan Powers: And both of them when they talk about the creation narratives.

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Jonathan Powers: Things are song into being.

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Jonathan Powers: amen know.

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Jonathan Powers: Like it's music that students so there's a singing into the creation that has a singing as and so there's there's there's this the singing the song aspect of US was trying to say the song aspect of it and there's this sense that.

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Jonathan Powers: I you know I don't have scriptural proofreading like this to back it up, but we're some theologians so they they believe when, God speaks it comes out a song like we would hear this song and because it's such a creative expressive way of communicating and.

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Jonathan Powers: there's something so mysterious and beautiful and participatory about music that draws us into it to say like what if god's voice when we actually hear it in its purest form is more musical than what we think in terms of this.

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Andy Miller III: You know when you're talking about even your own vocational direction here and, and this is a bit of a sidebar but maybe somebody just needs to hear these type of vocational pieces to that you and I experience, I had a.

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Andy Miller III: Similar feeling being a music major at at asbury university and as a competition may drive, so I love that I mean I I love studying music and.

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Andy Miller III: I still love experiencing in writing, to a certain extent, but not like I used to, but when I found it like similar to you like wake up, you had to you guys, it was a successful band, and it could have like probably gone on to other things.

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Andy Miller III: And did, to a certain degree.

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Andy Miller III: um I as a composer I had some success, but I found that I I kind of hit a high point like I had a piece that one the Kentucky music educators.

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Jonathan Powers: Oh yeah right.

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Andy Miller III: yeah so it was a big moment for me.

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Andy Miller III: And I realized as excited as I was to present that piece, I was most excited about telling people about it.

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Jonathan Powers: Oh yeah.

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Andy Miller III: I kept on finding that if my own music, on my own music making.

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Andy Miller III: I like telling people about the message of the day, more than the music and that kind of like led me to say.

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Andy Miller III: All right, what is it that I like the best year and I like that about your own color here you are and just performing a function, but what you realize while you're doing that was what you liked was escorting this this communal act.

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Andy Miller III: yeah and leading people into this mystery that helps to hopefully points into something else right.

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Jonathan Powers: Yes, exactly yeah I always say I use the image of a telescope a lot of times when i'm teaching this to say.

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Jonathan Powers: You know it's not the music itself not supposed to be looked at, or admired, I mean it's it can be a beautiful thing and we can say wow that's.

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Jonathan Powers: Wonderful This is great music, but like a telescope it's meant to be looked through to bring the image into a better view, we can see more of that image, we can see.

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Jonathan Powers: The details out of the characteristics and a better and clearer way.

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Jonathan Powers: If it's just the music that we're focusing on it's like taking the telescopes and Look how beautiful his telescope is and all the features and all this that's great there's nothing wrong with that wonderfully crafted telescope that's not the purpose of the telescope.

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Jonathan Powers: um, so I think that with music say yes, you can say that is a.

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Jonathan Powers: Beautiful melody and listen to the way those violins come in, or the way that this voice how great that voices, but if we get caught up in that we're focused on the lesser thing.

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Jonathan Powers: The thing it's meant to be useful to bring us into something greater, and so I think of.

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Jonathan Powers: Music serving that same purposes telescope if we're not actually looking through it to see the moon, or to see Jupiter in a more clear way then we're not actually using the telescope properly.

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Andy Miller III: yeah I love it Okay, so I want to make sure to get to talk about this him, though, but we might take a few other I want to go back to a few of those other points to.

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Andy Miller III: But here we are, you and I was invited and joined you on a committee, think about a new pan Wesley in him know and the idea like that I can Wesley and meaning it kind of goes across the various traditions.

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Andy Miller III: You know kind of of the children and grandchildren denominational of john Wesley so I was kind of like there i'm representing the Salvation Army free Methodist nazarene amy amy Z united Methodist and keep on going down down the list I.

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Andy Miller III: Had a bunch of people come together to put together this hymnal now, before we talk about like what got in that him know and how we got there.

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Andy Miller III: Why ahem know this is my question like, why do we need it like does anybody even use a hymnal Jonathan like, why should we even be thinking about printing a hymnal.

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Jonathan Powers: that's a fantastic question you know that's and that's a big question today are him those relevant or him those worth looking into as the age of the hymnal died.

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Jonathan Powers: I don't think it has you know, for the same reason that I mean different reasons I think there's similarities i'm not trying to equate them, but the same reason we wouldn't say a print Bible a hard copy Bible is.

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Jonathan Powers: a thing of the past, you know we know it's actually important um and when I draw those similarities to say you know the the Bible, we see the Bible, we have a tangible.

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Jonathan Powers: Tangible.

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Jonathan Powers: I.

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Andy Miller III: think the next tangible yeah some of those tangible I didn't want to say, like artifact or relic and that's again yeah.

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Jonathan Powers: I don't.

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Andy Miller III: like to call it.

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Jonathan Powers: A Bible that but yeah that's something to say like this is what we believe you can look at it say in here, this is what I believe this is what the Church is founded on this is what has been handed down to us.

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Jonathan Powers: Now, of course, the Bible is a closed canon and hymnal can be an open are changing canon but at least you can say at this time, this place, in time, so it might actually be more of an artifact or relic of him.

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Andy Miller III: live at.

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Jonathan Powers: This point in time for those of us in the West Indian tradition, this embodies who we are, what we believe this embodies our song so there's an identity that's there right we say in the hymnal it carries an identity.

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Andy Miller III: mm hmm.

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Jonathan Powers: Where digital it that can get lost or how do you have a cannon I mean to use that word cannon you know select set group of.

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Jonathan Powers: songs are you know it's a books of the Bible for the for the Bible, but for the handled say these songs We have carefully selected and chosen these like because it's limited we can't put everything in there.

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Jonathan Powers: These are ones that have been very carefully selected and chosen to say there's an identity embedded in them about who we are.

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Jonathan Powers: about this tradition that we've come from the theology that's been handed down and how we worship God, who we believe God is not just we are who we believe God is.

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Jonathan Powers: And the ways that we pray to God and ways that we sing about God there's there's there's a cannon there um there's a you know part of the the hymnal as well, is it.

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Jonathan Powers: It literally allows us to be on the same page when we're saying.

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Jonathan Powers: One of the things that happens with digital media and.

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Jonathan Powers: kind of not having music and reading music is you get all kinds of iteration that even with hymns that happens, but.

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Jonathan Powers: You can at least take a him, though, and say like this is how we're seeing it not, that we had I ridged with a but at least say we can be on the same page, you can look at it, you can know it, the words you know, there might be six versions of.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah come now found, but this is the version we're using because of the theology, is that you know what we're literally on the same page here.

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Andy Miller III: Like you have your own preferences that come to so.

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Andy Miller III: If you ever been someplace there's often people will if they sing for before a meal, you might.

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Andy Miller III: sing something be present at our table Lord right.

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Andy Miller III: yeah generally agreed upon those words, people in the method more kind of like Meta descriptions might call a Wesley prayer or something i'm not sure he actually said it, but then Nevertheless, I can establish an army.

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Andy Miller III: Regions in my denomination this every sure me we'd sing different endings are have a few different words.

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Andy Miller III: Oh it's so may strengthen for that service be or live to fight and die for the.

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Andy Miller III: or living feast and fellowship for the and all kinds of different words that come in, but you so there's always a little kind of a joke when you get together with other people like how you're going to finish that prayer.

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Andy Miller III: But the idea here I him, though, like okay we're on the same page like this, this is how we're going to do this, there are different versions different ways to think about these songs but we're going to do it this way.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah yeah and that's exactly right, I mean in saying that we really believe in.

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Jonathan Powers: Not that other versions are bad, but we believe in passing down a specific theology and doctrine and passing down ways that we do sing songs and you know again not say this version is wrong or bad, we just we had to select one.

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Andy Miller III: yeah and we.

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Jonathan Powers: had to spend the time deciding which one and why and most people might not ever know that, but we had a reason for it as an editorial team, and then to say, this is what we want people to carry forward and there's that part of it, too, that.

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Jonathan Powers: is important to a hymnal is a good cat a chemical resources to teaching a discipleship resource.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah so it can be a good devotion book, you can work through it it's laid out in a very intentional way.

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Jonathan Powers: You can see all the lyrics there at once and work through them and read through them it's it's a good thing to hand down so again say here's our doctrine our theology things that were very specifically chosen to teach us about the try and guide to teach us about.

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Jonathan Powers: church teaches about our interaction in the world, as the Church.

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Andy Miller III: So the canonical structure, you have.

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Andy Miller III: The entire structure is important to like if you're looking at various handles from your denominations, whatever it is you'll see kind of an emphasis that comes with like what matters that denomination so in mind.

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Andy Miller III: which emphasizes warfare quite a bit, and in that sense, not in the sense of like i'm just like spiritual for praying out demons which I affirmed by the way, but it is more or less you know fighting for the Gospel getting people saved.

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Andy Miller III: More than half of the older song books would be fight like the fight there might be a section called the fight or the war.

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Andy Miller III: The war so as opposed to starting say with a doctrine of God or revelation.

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Andy Miller III: yeah we're solving so what's the structure of this of this hymnal like white.

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Andy Miller III: Had yeah yeah.

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Jonathan Powers: So that's a good question, and this is really unique to the seminal as far as we know, we've not seen another Hemel that has done this as we've done a little bit of research.

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Jonathan Powers: Of course there's so many out there, but so many traditions could easily have missed something, but as far as we know, the major wesleyan him those at least that are out there.

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Jonathan Powers: have different structures will those start with us the character God the love of God or the something about you know god's nature, the trial and God, but what we decided to do is to lay ours out according to the articles of the apostles creed.

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Andy Miller III: Oh interesting.

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Jonathan Powers: So, if you think the apostles creed, I believe in God, the father almighty you know so that's the very first article, and the first ones it's the character of God, and it is, excuse me, it is the Trinity.

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Jonathan Powers: So, so you have things like that, like holy holy holy.

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Jonathan Powers: Things like that that would be in that section because it's it's it is kind of kicking off the creed two but.

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Jonathan Powers: Then you have creator of heaven and earth, you know the next line and so God, the father almighty and then creator of heaven and earth that's where you get like this is my father's world.

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Jonathan Powers: All pictures of our God and king.

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Jonathan Powers: and get and in Jesus Christ his only son Our Lord and so some general crystal logical hems.

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Jonathan Powers: Right, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit we would look at advent and you know, and not just add like the coming of Christ, the promised coming of Christ.

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Jonathan Powers: side that talks about that so i'll come O come Emmanuel low how rose they're blooming.

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Jonathan Powers: And then he was born of the Virgin Mary so you get Christmas songs there and.

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Jonathan Powers: Okay, birth narrative that's one of the neat things with hymns as you get narrative so many times.

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Andy Miller III: yeah.

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Jonathan Powers: As well as theological topics and prayers and things so a lot of times hymns are telling stories where they enter into the story in certain ways, not that other songs don't but just saying.

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Andy Miller III: Right right.

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Jonathan Powers: hymns do.

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Jonathan Powers: do that and so yeah so we laid it out in that way, so you get into the crucifixion you know suffered under Pontius Pilate was crucified died and was buried.

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Jonathan Powers: You can you can get into.

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Jonathan Powers: The passion narrative.

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Jonathan Powers: Right those hymns.

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Jonathan Powers: And you know songs that talk about the Cross but I mean what else where that takes us, though, is he ascended into heaven right and I like oh wait a second that's part of the story doesn't end with the resurrection.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah.

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Jonathan Powers: Actually there's an Ascension to heaven, so you get one of my absolute favorite hymns before the throne of God above like where's Christ now and what is he doing well got above talking about that.

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Jonathan Powers: or some of Charles wesley's you know.

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Andy Miller III: We can kind of clouds this and this yeah.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah yeah um some fantastic hymns that really talk about the Ascension so you know we put some in there for that, because they're in.

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Jonathan Powers: The Methodist him, though, and some other handles that we we looked into, so the structure of it gave us a narrative but also theological points that we went.

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Jonathan Powers: After we hit.

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Jonathan Powers: So we can hand it to somebody and say look, this is going to teach you through the faith, now the creed, is just a basic distillation of faith we're not saying the creed, is the end all be all you know.

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Andy Miller III: Right.

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Jonathan Powers: Right i'd say this is, this is the basics of the faith and so you can look at this and you can learn about God god's character god's nature god's actions god's relationship with humanity and with the world, and you can walk through the story of Jesus Christ, and of the Church.

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Andy Miller III: Through all I believe in the Holy Spirit the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins there's no it's like why it was such an interesting organizational.

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Jonathan Powers: concept to say wow yeah like let's find some good hymns that talk about the forgiveness of sins or.

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Jonathan Powers: We already have them so like, how do we organize like in some that could fit different places, of course.

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Jonathan Powers: But say, well, we want to really bolster this section to help people understand what do we mean by the Church, the Church is one foundation, you know let's put that I believe in the Holy Catholic Church or the universal church, you know.

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Jonathan Powers: Church is one foundation let's put that in there.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah or onward Christian soldiers, you know something like that to say, this is about the church and who the Church is and what the Church is doing so.

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Andy Miller III: I love it so it's interesting like thinking out the methods movement and our friend Ryan anchor that we you know run the john Wesley Institute in.

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Andy Miller III: Washington DC has recently written article about the messiness of methodism and how methodism in itself and that's like all the traditions kind of come from that movement is is confused I wouldn't say it's a problem it's a problem, but the Achilles geology and how we.

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Andy Miller III: function as a as denominations has been challenged because methodism itself started as renewal movement.

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Andy Miller III: To Church of England.

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Andy Miller III: Of the Church of England and rather not like john Wesley really party with it, particularly in England before coming United States and then there's various branches.

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Andy Miller III: In but yet there's like there is this cohesive Center I think that that's really exciting about this is that you made an effort to connect and not just you your team Julie tenant was a part of this and the I often say the other Andy Miller.

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Andy Miller III: From seed bed.

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Andy Miller III: One of the other Andy miller's I say so.

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Andy Miller III: bring this idea together of like having some in there also is a function in that emerging Methodist denominations might need a him, though, we can talk about that in a little bit too, but.

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Andy Miller III: Talk about the denominations you tried to bring in and just that idea or movement as a whole and in that process is talk to me about that.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah so I mean it really was an effort to make it pan wesleyan, as you said, like really embodying the wesleyan denominations wrestling traditions um.

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Jonathan Powers: So you know I think you mentioned a lot of these those united Methodist free Methodist the Wesley and the nazarene Salvation Army, as well as you know, the the amy amy die on the CME the Church of God.

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Jonathan Powers: church of God in Christ in touch with God Anderson both in church about Cleveland actually all three of those i'm.

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Jonathan Powers: The curator of the Christian missionary alliance.

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Jonathan Powers: Even like the United brother and honestly summit to say let's not neglect the Anglicans, not only because I am one, but.

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Jonathan Powers: But to say you know the wesley's were Anglican that's That was their home at least that's what they're raised in, and there are some really good Anglican hymns out there, that would still fit within the vision of this to bring all this together and say what does this look like.

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Jonathan Powers: So what we what we really wanted to do is say what are some of the distinctive of Wesley in theology, and so we would we would say you know what we believe about Christ atoning work.

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Jonathan Powers: is a big part of this so it's not a limited atonement.

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Jonathan Powers: Right, but we believe Christ died for all.

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Jonathan Powers: Then the nature of grace, which relates to that you know that God pours His grace out freely and then you know it's a matter of what what do we do with that grace that God has poured out.

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Jonathan Powers: So God is pouring out His grace freely So how do we focus on on grace, how do we focus on atonement in this that are part of those Western distinctiveness that we share.

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Jonathan Powers: And a big part of it, too, is the work of the Holy Spirit and sanctification We said we really want to have a robust section on hold the Holy spirit's work, and especially the Holy spirit's work and sanctification and saying you know that's the grand deposit some of.

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Jonathan Powers: The Methodist movement or the Wesley and faith everyone but that way, but that sanctified work with God in our lives to bring us to complete salvation not just salvation in the here and or not and salvation in the future.

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Jonathan Powers: But salvation to the fullest here and now, as the Holy Spirit works in our lives and perfecting us and bring us to Christian perfection.

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Jonathan Powers: Does that we really want to focus on these things, say, like all of us come from that heritage, and so there are so many good songs with that, as well as just good general songs that talk about who God is, we could say.

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Jonathan Powers: You know i'll go back to all creatures of our God and King that's not necessarily like distinctly Wesley.

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Jonathan Powers: right because there's written well before West the West is around the scene is what we've written before the Anglican Church was on the scene.

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Jonathan Powers: But to say.

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Jonathan Powers: This is good theological material it's it's a good resource of the Church, how do we look at this Treasury.

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Jonathan Powers: of resources throughout the history of the church and hold on to some of those while also looking at wesleyan distinctive and hold on to those as well, so it's kind of both hands hanging on to these two.

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Jonathan Powers: guardrails you know, so that we can walk this path, and this hymnal can be a way that we we help people walk it.

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Andy Miller III: yeah so it's interesting that guys you work through that this getting to these traditions which I would like to hear what you heard.

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Andy Miller III: From these various traditions and what you even discovered, can I imagine like there are things that you didn't know now that there's been a few attempts at some of these things through the years I think of a camp meeting him know.

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Jonathan Powers: And they can call on higher ground that measuring.

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Andy Miller III: Press publish Oh, you might even have it back then they.

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Andy Miller III: Go.

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Andy Miller III: back here so like it's interesting like that's a good a good, and I would often be surprised that go through there and final there's a couple of Salvation Army songs in here and and that that's a short little thing that meant it has a function.

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Andy Miller III: Be around for camp meetings is like a multi multi denominational couple denominations come together.

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Andy Miller III: At a camp meeting, but I would love to hear some of those ones that worked that you.

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Andy Miller III: have added or some of the ones that people were insistent on they might not know it, as we say it, but maybe people, I imagine, most of the nominations that you we've listed.

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Andy Miller III: I have listeners from there, but I know I have a good chunk of Salvation Army people so i'm going to tell them some of the ones that we.

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Jonathan Powers: That made it oh yeah and.

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Andy Miller III: The Salvation Army side, so I caleb loudon and I were the ones, working on behalf the Salvation Army, we did a pretty good survey around.

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Andy Miller III: Making sure that our folks felt represented, but of course our number one that we would we would pull out the salvation army's interest if we didn't get Obama salvation in there, so don't.

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Andy Miller III: worry that that one made it right and we have.

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Andy Miller III: bramwell cole's here at the Cross i'll go in the strength oh Lord several albums or is born songs in the secret of thy presence.

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Andy Miller III: Christ is all we are able to get bill himes all that I am.

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Andy Miller III: Several gallons and Larson songs to be like Jesus they shall come from the east.

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Andy Miller III: The outside a gut were able to get a filmmaker and I think it's nice to have somebody who's around our age having a.

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Andy Miller III: song or two included, I think I surrender.

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Andy Miller III: is in there, and maybe one other filmmaker one but anyways those are those are kinda like the Salvation Army contributions that they have made it what are some other ones that you are surprised by are you, you are delighted to learn from other traditions.

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Jonathan Powers: Well, if you're Okay, excuse me i'm i'm going to take a step just a sidestep for a moment and share how we came up.

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Jonathan Powers: Yes, we're texts for this hymnal and then how we how we kind of expanded from that So what we did is We took our primary how many handles it was I can't remember off top my head.

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Jonathan Powers: But we had like eight hymnal you know we took i'm probably going to miss something here so i'm giving more of an idea than the full truth.

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Jonathan Powers: But we took the United Methodist him the most recent United Methodist hymnal free Methodist hymnal wesleyan hymnal nazarene him no Salvation Army songbook amy's I on me see me.

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Jonathan Powers: What am I missing missing something in there.

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Jonathan Powers: Now nazarene yeah so basically either you think those major westlands denominational movements, we took their most recent hymnal and then we indexed we put on a spreadsheet every single one of their indexes on one huge spreadsheet.

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Jonathan Powers: And then, what we did.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah I mean gigantic and then what we did from there was took you know we listed them Alphabetically.

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Jonathan Powers: And then we saw what songs appear, the most in the symbols right so say you have eight him those I don't know how many I just I can't remember off top my head, but say you had eight him those that we were comparing other any songs that appear in all eight.

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Jonathan Powers: wow so, and can it be oh 4000 tons to seeing, especially as westerns those two are in all eight right.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah i'm here.

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Jonathan Powers: i'm trying to remember some of the others holy holy holy I mean some of the standards that you'd think of you know, and so we got a good core list of like a couple hundred hymns that way i'm not a couple of make 150 or something that way that's like these appear and all of them.

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Jonathan Powers: You know.

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Jonathan Powers: So those are must haves because those are favorites those are good hymns they are ones that have stood the test of time, you know so we're going to keep those and then we said all right, what appears and seven what appears in six what appears in five.

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Jonathan Powers: And we basically went to what I think up to five, you know, so if we're talking eight.

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Jonathan Powers: Five and above and we said anything like five or six let's evaluate.

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Jonathan Powers: If it's only five or six if it's i'm sorry probably four or five let's evaluate if it's, five, six or seven.

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Jonathan Powers: Then we're going to automatically include it unless we're going through the index we just feel like no that one's just not anymore, or whatever, but I don't think we struck me that we're in like the good much like.

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Jonathan Powers: At least, five, six or seven jobs sorry six or seven if it was an all eight we kept it pretty much, no matter what um and then.

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Jonathan Powers: The ones that appeared, you know five or four under you know we just evaluate just put we lay them all out and said, you know if it's just one then maybe it's so esoteric or something you know we just don't know.

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Jonathan Powers: But it.

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Andy Miller III: Is a fake.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah exactly yeah yeah unless somebody told us like no we really think this one needs to be in there, but to give a starting point, you know we came up with I don't again I don't know numbers let's just say after all of our indexing and everything we ended at like 500 or 550 you know.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah after all of that, and we kind of narrowed them down everything and then from there, what we did is we got our consultants from it, so that was you and caleb and.

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Jonathan Powers: From all these different denominations we had anywhere from two to three consultants from each denomination.

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Jonathan Powers: And we sent them the index of what we had come up with by comparing all these indexes and kind of narrowing it down here's the ones that we think are the most core when comparing all of these symbols to each other.

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Jonathan Powers: here's the core group, and then we said is anything in this group that you don't think needs to be.

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Jonathan Powers: And just strike it tell us, I mean.

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Jonathan Powers: You don't get to strike it, but you can advise us it's an.

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Jonathan Powers: Advice advise us that we should strike that one give us a reason why.

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Jonathan Powers: Or is there anything, not in here yet that needs to be in there, and some of those could have been ones that we tossed out because we just didn't know like we're not from that denomination we don't know that that one's one that really should be claimed, you know.

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Jonathan Powers: So we got all those back and were able to put them in I think we had something like 150 somewhere between 120 hundred 50 that came back to us, and I think we included almost every single there might have been two or three that we didn't.

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Jonathan Powers: and different reasons, I sometimes it was like well we just can't find the music or there were one or two, where we said, this is a great song, but the music is so.

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Jonathan Powers: stuck in like that.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah or whatever it's just not relatable or accessible, and so we found a different tune that would fit you know, use the metrical index and found this meter matches that meter so we can just use this.

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Jonathan Powers: more familiar with that him.

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Jonathan Powers: and hopefully more people would sing it, you know because i'd say Oh, we know that tune, these are great words let's sing it.

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Andy Miller III: If you have you talked about like getting down to the ones, there were like warriors just in one him, though I i'm guessing a lot of this Salvation Army ones were like that, because.

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Andy Miller III: For instance.

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Andy Miller III: We didn't include.

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Andy Miller III: joy in the Salvation Army in the.

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Andy Miller III: Pan Wesley and him go.

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Andy Miller III: And we have a lot of songs like that being the salvation soldier what your uniform looks like all this stuff of course you probably would I I don't know I stand amazing the presence of Jesus the nazarene if you had to.

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Andy Miller III: Take out their hymnal to.

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Andy Miller III: Sorry bad dad joke here I can't.

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Andy Miller III: Do those type of things.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah yeah we did I mean you're exactly right there are some of those and there are a couple honestly that I mean that we weeded out beforehand, even just theologically we said, you know, maybe for that time.

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Jonathan Powers: There was something to that, like in the understanding of Theology and all that, but we actually don't like that doesn't match our theology.

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Jonathan Powers: And i'd say theology changes over time, but at that time they might have had.

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Andy Miller III: The same space wishing oh yeah exactly.

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Jonathan Powers: So there were some of those things that that we just said, you know we can we can toss those um.

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Jonathan Powers: So yeah so so we put those together and the beauty of that was having consultants from the Salvation Army like you and caleb was wonderful because there were songs we would have never known you know I mean looking at it, there were songs that.

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Jonathan Powers: Either we tossed or that just weren't on in that handle that you all can be like no it's actually a good one, it didn't make this him know that you all looked at, but it's in previous ones, and we shouldn't have lost it.

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Jonathan Powers: Right um.

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Jonathan Powers: There were songs that appeared in a couple of him those like I remember early on, I think it was a song like Oh, the deep deep love of Jesus, which I love I think it's a fantastic him.

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Jonathan Powers: right and it didn't appear in very many him those but I said we got to keep that song because it's so good.

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Jonathan Powers: So we made some quick editorial decisions on our own even early on, but hearing back from the consultants from different traditions was so helpful, oh no, this is a song we we just love and we sing all the time we've got to keep um but not just from certain I mean it kind of it's it's.

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Jonathan Powers: It expanded across different styles and genres we had camp meeting songs.

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Jonathan Powers: Yes, so we had more traditional English hymns we had with the emmys I on in the emmys church, we had.

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Jonathan Powers: Some spirituals that were coming in, you know more him like spirituals that were being suggested, and it was so beautiful to see all this come together and say wow these are wonderful songs and we can pull all this together and say look at who we are, as westlands across.

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Jonathan Powers: Yes, great span of traditions are not traditional but of denominations that are still from the same heritage, you know.

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Jonathan Powers: And the ways that we have this expression that can still be unified but also maintain some distinction, but not without coherence see you know, we were able to still say like Okay, this one is great.

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Jonathan Powers: But it starts to feel like it's a little bit too much on the edges, you know, in terms of that style or something you know.

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Jonathan Powers: And so we can still acknowledge that tradition and these hymns that were suggested and not feel bad about having to let go of that one particular song, because it was a little bit too too far, that would lose some coherence, see to what the hymnal is itself.

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Andy Miller III: I love it i'm excited to see what comes from these other you know other denominations outside of my own yeah i'm more familiar with the United Methodist him know, maybe because it's the largest.

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Andy Miller III: Western denomination seemingly, and so I know know that tradition fairly well but i'm excited to see what will come in, otherwise and how that can enrich.

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Andy Miller III: The greater.

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Andy Miller III: Pan Wesley and movement, and I think the same thing, like i'm i'm hopeful to that people will look at oh balanced salvation or the other one that I did say earlier send the fire.

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Andy Miller III: Like those songs that can really be powerful for the greater Christian world and sometimes in our own circles sociologically it's easy to kind of plant, the hatches down there is fruit to share.

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Andy Miller III: From from the whole Community so i'm i'm excited about john I really appreciate your work and making it.

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Jonathan Powers: happen yeah well you know here's some that's kind of fascinating is the oldest song in there is from.

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Jonathan Powers: Let me think at least the fourth century we've got Oh, let all mortal flesh keep silence which liturgy of St James we've got another we got a couple from john of Damascus that are in there translate, of course, in English.

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Jonathan Powers: So, if you look at oh glad some light.

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Andy Miller III: That one's actually a.

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Jonathan Powers: Second century, you know i'm so glad some light is in there.

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Jonathan Powers: And so you've got it like from the second century, and I think the newest one in there if i'm not mistaken i'm trying to think we've got the blessing that I think came out in 2020 carry job and.

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Jonathan Powers: Yes, the Lord bless you and keep you make.

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Jonathan Powers: All the like videos came out with.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah people singing during the pandemic singing that song um what's the other one um it's phil wickham I can't believe i'm forgetting name but it's.

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Jonathan Powers: All ilya praise the one who set me free all of the.

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Jonathan Powers: Okay yeah cuz last.

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Jonathan Powers: Year broken every chain yeah there's salvation living hope, I had to go through it, I really didn't or somewhere.

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Andy Miller III: I always think oh.

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Jonathan Powers: Nice yeah.

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Jonathan Powers: So yeah so living hope, which I think was 2018 or 19 maybe somewhere around there so just to think like Yes, this is an when I say like it's an artifact of historical artifact that's like a.

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Jonathan Powers: here's who we are, you know, given the music that we have available to us, you know we're saying it's not just the stuff written the last 50 years or the most popular stuff or last couple hundred years.

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Jonathan Powers: we're saying we're going all the way back to the second century, but also going back to just a couple years ago and so.

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Jonathan Powers: there's a good number of what we would consider to be contemporary hymns in there and even some that are.

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Jonathan Powers: him esque but might not be totally him so you know, a song like how great is our God you just can't deny that that's not been a very powerful and meaningful song in our world in the contemporary so you know, one of the most.

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Jonathan Powers: More contemporary songs.

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Jonathan Powers: and say, well, we want to include that one, even though it's it's not a typical him structure of like verse verse verse verse or verse refrain verse refrain we're sharing you know it's.

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Jonathan Powers: it's verse chorus verse chorus bridge chorus but we said, you know that's okay we're going to still write it out like a him put it in the handle because we think it's important and it shows something about where we are, who we are and.

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Jonathan Powers: to also say it's not only you know, a hit a hymnal does not have to be filled with things that are at least 50 years old or.

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Jonathan Powers: Whatever and.

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Jonathan Powers: Although 50 years from now, they will be, you know, but for now.

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Andy Miller III: there's something good about having things are old.

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Andy Miller III: and to be able to rest in fact that like Okay, this has been sung by the church for 50 years Hundred Years 200 years 2000 years okay 1800 1900 years like that there's something about that, like this has definitely stood the test of time.

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Andy Miller III: There also needs to be some new things that represent.

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Andy Miller III: Our time, even though they're not exactly cutting edge now i'm curious about that just from a pragmatic standpoint do those songs.

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Andy Miller III: Like using some of those more resources they have chord charts these like function, I mean said, you said you have adds a him gnome or is it printed in different the same the same way or how'd you go about that.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah we we work through that we talked to that and weren't sure exactly what we wanted to do at first and even considered we put chords in just for those songs.

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Jonathan Powers: or would we try to create an a website, you know and try to do you know, not just those songs but just start working through the him students.

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Jonathan Powers: Work we want you to for those that lead with a band or guitar whatever we want to be able to use this as well.

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Jonathan Powers: And we're not still sure what we're going to do, maybe in terms of website or resources like that we might eventually do something that's not like forefront for us right now, but we said for those we're just going to leave them as sent we want them to look very uniform.

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Jonathan Powers: to everything.

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Jonathan Powers: there's things like CC Li that are out there song select those websites that you can go to and pull those chord charts.

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Andy Miller III: I write.

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Jonathan Powers: Those that we don't need to reinvent the wheel we don't need to put more work on ourselves if somebody you know people are using those sites pretty well already.

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Jonathan Powers: So just trust that that will keep happening, we might put together our own resource eventually for this him, though, like, I said to go beyond just the contemporary more contemporary hymns and songs that are in there.

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Jonathan Powers: But we really do want this to look uniform as a hymnal and to help people see these aren't.

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Jonathan Powers: Even though they might be different in some ways they're still important to what we're doing in the symbol and we want them to be seen as part of the hymnal or not this just extra edition or something like that.

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Andy Miller III: yeah that's great you have that included.

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Andy Miller III: What other there are some other things that you've pulled back that you found even historical hymns that you've included in here, maybe some Charles Wesley hymns that haven't been used.

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Andy Miller III: I think there are some towns like that tell us about some of those exciting new things that will be a part of this.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah there are goodness, there are so many.

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Jonathan Powers: Good Charles Wesley hymns that.

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Jonathan Powers: have just been lost or forgotten um so there's one called let earth and heaven combine so it's that real cosmic sense of worship yeah like.

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Jonathan Powers: it's kind of like the the glory to God and you know the the.

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Jonathan Powers: 4000 types of seeing the verse glory to God and praise and love be ever ever given by earth the church below the church about.

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Jonathan Powers: By saints below and saints above the church and earth and heaven took me a minute to get there, but heaven and earth coming together sing worship, as this coming of the Church.

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Jonathan Powers: In its fullest way, and so this Wesley him that really impacts that well, and so you know, a fantastic him there that.

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Jonathan Powers: we're excited about you know Salvation Army has one like that, but earth and heaven agree that makes more on prayer in it.

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Jonathan Powers: Yes, yeah so kind of same idea where you know this Wesley let's talk about terms of worship, you have a Salvation Army one.

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Jonathan Powers: In a very similar way um there are, let me think.

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Jonathan Powers: One of the things that we're doing in it is also including a metrical Salter not a whole metrical Salter but we you know the songs were written to be sung and.

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Jonathan Powers: grab a handful just a select few songs that Julie tenant has put to rhyme and two meter that then are paired with familiar tunes so you can sing the Psalms you can actually sing the songs We said we really want to reclaim that.

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Jonathan Powers: there's other things like.

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Jonathan Powers: You know, alas, and did my savior bleed that we know which usually now we know it as at the Cross you know, alas, and did my savior bleed and format on.

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Andy Miller III: day I got.

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Jonathan Powers: The cross the Cross right yeah so you have this course it's added to it, but you know watched it and write the chorus he just wrote the lyrics and wentworth first so he said, you know one things we'd love to do with a seminal is to show how hymns have developed and adapted over time.

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Jonathan Powers: And and show different iterations but not all over the place, but every once in a while do some so he said why don't we do at the cross, but then right next to it let's put alas into my savior bleed the original Isaac Watts version.

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Jonathan Powers: So you can see.

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Jonathan Powers: here's what I mean, so the verses aren't really going to change, but you can see here's how watch wrote it and how it functioned before it had a chorus added to it.

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Jonathan Powers: Now here's the version, you know and love and there's nothing wrong with singing it that way, and doing that, but here's you know both iterations of this both expressions of it.

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Jonathan Powers: And so really excited for that i'm there i'm trying to think of some others.

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Andy Miller III: Well, let me, let me stop you for so.

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Andy Miller III: Please go ahead yeah i'm curious to thinking about maybe somebody listening to this right now and they're a pastor and there.

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Andy Miller III: They don't have a maybe have some volunteer musicians who helped them out and just thinking of what they normally go through and picking songs and picking music.

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Andy Miller III: And, as somebody who teaches worship, you probably attuned to some of the things that people are doing and and that.

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Andy Miller III: might not be mistakes, but it's just like incredibly pragmatic what I need to get this thing this Sunday, how do I make this happen, and what are some of those miss not mistakes or or things that could use more thought.

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Andy Miller III: In our worship planning and i'm curious like asked you that kind of as a worship, Professor side learn how your how you're training.

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Andy Miller III: People to prepare worship and the then the second part of Question would be this like.

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Andy Miller III: How can this him know help them so there's one side like there's there's some problems with the way we go about worship and the shirts like maybe it's just like.

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Andy Miller III: falling back to things Okay, I know they know this song, are they sing wellness are going and CC Li or what's the most popular song or.

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Andy Miller III: Whatever it is what are some of those problem areas, and how can this hymnal help.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah a couple of things that I think you're right that we just kind of fall back on the same yeah there's a.

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Jonathan Powers: I think CCL I put this out, but i've seen a few different places to say you know it's you can take a hymnal and most likely, I mean it's going to be very unlikely that you get past 50 at best of the him, you know people tend to just go back to the.

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Jonathan Powers: same hymns over and over again.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah i've actually heard, I think CC allies said here's the top 25 and we really don't see a whole lot of stretching outside of those you know.

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Jonathan Powers: Random things here and there, but the top 25 to 50 hymns just kind of keep going back to them, so what we know is what people love it's what they like, so I can get it from a very practical, pragmatic standpoint another part of it is.

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Jonathan Powers: We tend to do kind of plug and play worship, you know.

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Jonathan Powers: So there's not a lot of conversation between maybe the pastor and music leader or there's not a lot of for planning, you know.

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Jonathan Powers: So that it's not you know I don't know the scriptures ahead of time or I don't know the focus or I mean maybe the conversation even happening at all, but even if it is you know it could be, if the pastors just coming up with the sermon.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah a couple days before that week or something I didn't really help them musician and.

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Jonathan Powers: Trying to plan songs and things like that sometimes musician damon have a choice in it, like the pastor just kind of pick some and they have to lead them so there's a lot of different things there that could be.

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Jonathan Powers: problems.

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Jonathan Powers: The plug and play is more like Okay, we have three songs at the beginning, we have one or two songs at the end we just kind of put them in you know.

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Jonathan Powers: Like we'll do what we know we don't we like here's a new song i've been wanting to do, or whatever there's not a lot of intentional thought through it, so what I do to kind of correct that and to help people and i'll relate this to the hymnal.

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Jonathan Powers: Is what I call the four s's of.

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Jonathan Powers: Okay, worst of planning like song planning and worship, so the first one is the scripture what is the scripture for the week, and so, if somebody is doing the lectionary you know where there's that planned out for a year for few years.

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Jonathan Powers: scripture sequence of reading things and stuff and you're preaching off of those that have already been laid out and planned out for you.

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Jonathan Powers: You know I mean for traditions that do that are churches that do that you can go on the lectionary website and just see what's coming up at any point and start planning, you know.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah that's helpful that's nice um, but if you don't do that it's just good to know ahead of time, what is the scripture for this week, and so, if i'm doing music if i'm if i'm leading music in a church.

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Jonathan Powers: I am going to sit down myself and it'd be nice to have conversation with the pastor here Where are you going with this, how are you what are you pulling out of it, what is you really want to emphasize from this text.

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Jonathan Powers: Be if I don't get that chance or or whatever you know, even despite that, like, even if I did have that chance.

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Jonathan Powers: i'm going to sit down with that scripture and i'm going to read through it a couple times, or if it's multiple scripture i'm going to read through the scriptures.

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Jonathan Powers: A few times and what are the major ideas that are coming out of this and praying with you know not just doing it, but like prayer fully read through it and think through it God, what are you speaking here what are some of the major things that I can see coming out of this.

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Jonathan Powers: And what songs now do I see that can relate to that you know so here's a song that I find that that is related to that idea or to that scripture in some way, maybe narrative you know.

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yeah.

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Jonathan Powers: So there could be that.

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Jonathan Powers: So there might be narrative ones, but yeah I think through scripture and then of course you can always go to like him nuri.org or to scriptural indexes in him, those.

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Jonathan Powers: So, like what we'd have you know scriptural index.

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Jonathan Powers: And then look up that scripture and there might be hymns already said, like oh okay well there you go that already is suggesting hymns.

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Jonathan Powers: But if you don't know those hymns and can't do them, you know it's still good for you to do that work print you know I don't think we do that enough as musicians.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah music leaders to actually sit with the scriptures for that Sunday and pray through them and think through them ourselves so that we are in that same kind of mental space as the.

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Andy Miller III: pie right.

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Jonathan Powers: sermon or she's preparing a sermon.

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Jonathan Powers: Because there's there's a chance that, of course, you know I might be kind of going here but we're really trying to lean on the Holy Spirit all we can.

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Jonathan Powers: Trusting there's at least going to be a foundation that we're both standing on in this scripture So even if they're going a little bit off from where i'd go there's the Foundation still there and it's not totally unrelated.

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Andy Miller III: it's like right right.

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Jonathan Powers: So scriptures first second is season what season of the Church, are we in so, especially those that follow more liturgical seasons like lint advent Easter Christmas.

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Jonathan Powers: But even very generally you can still get that say like Okay, maybe you don't follow the Easter.

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Jonathan Powers: Follow the liturgical calendar, the church calendar, but you could say right now we're close enough to Easter that Easter still a good thing to sing about you know.

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Jonathan Powers: So we're in the season of Easter but also it's only a few weeks out so there's nothing wrong with that, so I say you know, maybe it doesn't relate to the scripture totally, but I want to start off with a good Easter song just to kind of keep that celebration in front of us, you know.

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Jonathan Powers: This is a good resurrection song and so for him, though, you can just look up Easter songs are you know, in the categories of you know subject categories in the index.

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Jonathan Powers: Excuse me, you can look up resurrection or look up Easter and find some good hymns or good songs that relate to Easter, of course, so that we have it laid out with the apostles creed.

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Jonathan Powers: I believe in the resurrection of the dead, you know, so I actually go to that, and so there you go it's about resurrection or he rose from you know, on the third day he rose again look at that section and you got it so.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, yeah.

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Jonathan Powers: So that could help for something like that you know so scripture season.

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Jonathan Powers: um and then structure where are we in the structure of the service are we at the beginning of the service are we at the end of the service, you know you don't want to start.

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Jonathan Powers: I mean you know, maybe somebody can make it work in a good way, but I wouldn't suggest the very first song off the BAT being just as I am without one plate, you know.

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Jonathan Powers: yeah it could work, you know you could make it work, I can see some ways um but yeah there's intentionality to that you know you see that more as a response song.

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Jonathan Powers: Right um what's a good gathering song what's a good thing that helps us focus on God and see God and know god's presence and character, you know so so scripture and then.

454
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Jonathan Powers: season and then setting as structure, so I structure where are we in the structure of the service is this right before the sermon is this right before a scripture reading maybe you'd want to sing a song like speak oh Lord.

455
00:57:21.960 --> 00:57:24.360
Jonathan Powers: talks about the scriptures you know getty him.

456
00:57:24.960 --> 00:57:31.080
Jonathan Powers: That talks about the scriptures being opened up and the spirit, leading us and instilling within us the word of God.

457
00:57:32.970 --> 00:57:39.660
Jonathan Powers: Come Holy Ghost our hearts inspire you know another one that could be good right before we're hearing a message or before going into prayer or something.

458
00:57:40.020 --> 00:57:48.750
Jonathan Powers: Where are we in the structure of the service, and how does this song, not just a song that we sing and then just move to the next thing how's it actually preparing us for what's about to come next.

459
00:57:48.900 --> 00:58:03.180
Jonathan Powers: Sure um so that's third so scripture and then season and then structure in the last one setting and that setting is the the context, the Community the culture that we're in.

460
00:58:04.470 --> 00:58:06.360
Jonathan Powers: So just to be aware and to know.

461
00:58:08.430 --> 00:58:23.790
Jonathan Powers: You know if it's if you're in a place that's used to more contemporary stuff then maybe doing this second since doing a lot of really old hymns is not going to be so I need to think through that did I just string together three songs that they're not going to know or that's in an.

462
00:58:23.790 --> 00:58:29.550
Jonathan Powers: eye genre or style that they're so unfamiliar with like they're not gonna be able to participate well.

463
00:58:30.090 --> 00:58:41.850
Jonathan Powers: Right, so no my setting and say there's nothing wrong with pushing them there's nothing wrong with with stretching them beyond what they know but I need to be careful with how I do that and not give them worship whiplash.

464
00:58:41.880 --> 00:58:42.870
Andy Miller III: You know, and I like.

465
00:58:43.230 --> 00:58:53.670
Jonathan Powers: to wear that yeah so so scripture and then season and then structure and then setting are the four s's.

466
00:58:53.820 --> 00:59:05.430
Jonathan Powers: yeah that i'm thinking through constantly and like fingers on a hand I don't do this is like one than the next the next the next kind of all there together and like fingers on a hand work together, you know not just one, at a time.

467
00:59:05.910 --> 00:59:08.850
Jonathan Powers: yeah but they all kind of work together at the same time.

468
00:59:10.020 --> 00:59:15.030
Jonathan Powers: And so I mean scripture is really the foundation of it all but to say, like all of this is working together.

469
00:59:15.450 --> 00:59:17.280
Jonathan Powers: my fingers on a hand rather than.

470
00:59:17.730 --> 00:59:27.990
Jonathan Powers: A systematic like start here and then do this, then do this and do this but kind of keep them all up there as you're planning and thinking about it and the hymnal has those indexes that can help you that can guide you.

471
00:59:28.920 --> 00:59:34.500
Jonathan Powers: It has the categories, the subjects and so you can start thinking through those things.

472
00:59:36.090 --> 00:59:48.330
Jonathan Powers: and have an aid there for suggestions and you know, sometimes even setting wise it might be hey, this is a amazing text, but they do not know this him, this is a 16th century.

473
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Andy Miller III: Right.

474
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Jonathan Powers: You know French tune that they've never heard Oh, but you know what we can sing that to this tune that they do know it's you know, because the.

475
01:00:01.020 --> 01:00:13.230
Andy Miller III: that's the metric index, I thought you know Okay, so I don't know this one well there's probably a tune that they people do know that you can help them find out, I used to get a little too creative with that, when I was planning worse.

476
01:00:14.130 --> 01:00:17.670
Andy Miller III: Now, a little tired of singing yeah the tunes I liked.

477
01:00:17.850 --> 01:00:19.860
Andy Miller III: So, but yeah it's it's good.

478
01:00:19.920 --> 01:00:25.920
Andy Miller III: This is so good, Jonathan I like i'm excited about this when will it come out and how can How can people get it.

479
01:00:26.670 --> 01:00:38.220
Jonathan Powers: So it will come out this fall is the is the projected release you know, barring any delays, for whatever reason, it should be sometime this fall my.

480
01:00:39.540 --> 01:00:47.910
Jonathan Powers: Best guess, especially from what i've been told by seedbed who's publishing it is that will probably be September, probably late September early October.

481
01:00:48.720 --> 01:01:04.890
Jonathan Powers: would be safe yeah maybe before then that's that's a pretty safe guess right now projected release date, and you can get it through seed bed, and if you go on seed beds website they'll have placeholders right now, where you can express interest in it for you or your church.

482
01:01:04.920 --> 01:01:07.650
Jonathan Powers: If you'd buy like more than just one for yourself.

483
01:01:08.970 --> 01:01:17.100
Jonathan Powers: so soon find it there, and there will be bulk prices, so if you want to buy it for your church and say what we're going to need 100 of these are 200.

484
01:01:17.100 --> 01:01:32.760
Jonathan Powers: Yes, not just you know 10, then you can get bulk prices but they'll be for sale individually also if you just want one for yourself, for your family or to give as a gift, but just keep keep an eye on seedbed calm.

485
01:01:32.820 --> 01:01:41.670
Jonathan Powers: Right now, there is a site that you can go to I think if you just Google even seedbed hymnal you probably get the asbury him, though, that pops up but there's also a.

486
01:01:42.030 --> 01:01:43.950
Jonathan Powers: placeholder for this particular him know.

487
01:01:44.160 --> 01:01:47.940
Jonathan Powers: By the way, should name this the name of the hymnal is.

488
01:01:47.940 --> 01:02:00.750
Jonathan Powers: yeah yeah is our great redeemer praise taken off of oh 4000 tongues to seeing the original is oh 4000 tongues to seeing, my dear redeemer praise and then it became my great redeemer praise.

489
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Jonathan Powers: 16 yeah it is yeah and we said to keep put the language that's more familiar, we want to keep the great redeemer praise, but also we want to make it plural because it's not just about me in a personal things about the Church, so we want to call it, are great for demers.

490
01:02:15.090 --> 01:02:16.500
Jonathan Powers: how long it.

491
01:02:17.070 --> 01:02:24.060
Andy Miller III: So is here's here's a i'm sure this is debated point is oh 4000 tons to sing the number one song.

492
01:02:24.570 --> 01:02:26.400
Jonathan Powers: It is, and that was not debated at all.

493
01:02:26.610 --> 01:02:35.100
Jonathan Powers: Oh good yeah so for those that might not be familiar with this almost every iteration in the Methodist tradition.

494
01:02:36.060 --> 01:02:44.820
Jonathan Powers: Every iteration of a hymnal has begun with the song oh 4000 tongues to sing which was written on the one year anniversary of Charles Wesley zone conversion heartwarming experience.

495
01:02:46.080 --> 01:03:01.560
Jonathan Powers: And so, like the 1930 3239 I can remember, but that hymnal did not do it there's like one or two others that did not start with that, but every other methods 10 though I started with oh 4000 tongues saying and we said there's no question we're doing the same.

496
01:03:01.770 --> 01:03:04.740
Jonathan Powers: So that will be the that is number one in the hymnal.

497
01:03:05.220 --> 01:03:11.970
Andy Miller III: Right there's something to like putting that out there, I love I love the title of it too and, and this is coming to at a great moment.

498
01:03:12.180 --> 01:03:21.120
Andy Miller III: Within the life of the West, a movement rather not you're a part of it, like you, and I aren't a part of the united Methodist church, right now, though we both have very close ties to it.

499
01:03:21.570 --> 01:03:32.640
Andy Miller III: The global Methodist Church is emerging this summer we're recording this in early May and so it's coming into existence and not I don't I don't mean it's just me i'll throw out there, united Methodist seminoles but.

500
01:03:32.640 --> 01:03:37.410
Andy Miller III: Sure, at some point, you will and and at that point, this would be a great him they'll pick up.

501
01:03:37.560 --> 01:03:40.230
Andy Miller III: And I think like in other denominations in my tradition.

502
01:03:40.410 --> 01:03:44.850
Andy Miller III: Has because of the Inter inter use of words is often the way that we do it because.

503
01:03:44.940 --> 01:03:53.670
Andy Miller III: We want all our global hymnal the Salvation Army seminole is people seeing different tunes a different hymns.

504
01:03:53.730 --> 01:03:54.990
Andy Miller III: And so, because of that.

505
01:03:55.320 --> 01:04:03.420
Andy Miller III: We don't have any music, but I am one who advocated for putting music and it just helps people get on the same page and sing parts and.

506
01:04:04.560 --> 01:04:19.710
Andy Miller III: it's generally a helpful process that people can even if you can't read music actually I find like my my father in law french's Methodist Minister for over 40 years he says he doesn't read music, but he can look at him now, and he can sing the parts I mean he he can and.

507
01:04:19.830 --> 01:04:23.970
Andy Miller III: You can really learn just the ups and downs, or you can see, black notes, you know that.

508
01:04:23.970 --> 01:04:34.440
Andy Miller III: gets faster, so I really encourage that but, in my tradition doesn't have music, so this would be a great one to pick up to have to be available and i'm looking forward to and Jonathan Thank you and I.

509
01:04:34.440 --> 01:04:35.010
Jonathan Powers: Know Thank you.

510
01:04:35.070 --> 01:04:49.350
Andy Miller III: Julie Julie 10 I know listens every now and then thanks to you and Julie, for your hard work on this project, it means so much to us in this in this kind of like world of the evangelical wesleyan world to be able to have this resource or really looking forward to it.

511
01:04:49.650 --> 01:04:52.500
Andy Miller III: One last question, I always ask people Jonathan is a.

512
01:04:53.250 --> 01:05:05.970
Andy Miller III: podcast is called more to story for theological reasons but also kind of like the nature of what we're trying to do get a deeper story, but is there, more to the story of Jonathan powers like Is there something that you like to do or something that people don't often know about you.

513
01:05:06.900 --> 01:05:08.700
Jonathan Powers: yeah oh gosh there's so much.

514
01:05:10.650 --> 01:05:15.030
Jonathan Powers: yeah I um, so this is gonna get really weird really quick that's what.

515
01:05:17.190 --> 01:05:20.760
Jonathan Powers: i'm talking about more to story, I am i'm actually.

516
01:05:22.260 --> 01:05:26.760
Jonathan Powers: Very fascinated by ufo ufo reports.

517
01:05:27.030 --> 01:05:34.680
Jonathan Powers: Really yeah so it's a lot more to the story right and because and that's why because I find, why are Why do people.

518
01:05:35.220 --> 01:05:46.800
Jonathan Powers: Like I get there, but like I get a week i'm not a week I get a monthly newsletter that says how many sightings there have been in the in the nation and like by state, and all this.

519
01:05:47.280 --> 01:05:54.060
Jonathan Powers: And part of its because i'm just fascinated How are people trying to understand this world and especially people that don't have a greater.

520
01:05:55.950 --> 01:06:00.750
Jonathan Powers: narrative that part of what are the narratives that we go to.

521
01:06:01.020 --> 01:06:09.720
Jonathan Powers: Right and I just find it fascinating and that's the one I think someone's just growing up on the X files like that was my favorite show absolutely show still want to watch all the time.

522
01:06:10.380 --> 01:06:17.430
Jonathan Powers: So grown up on that there's that you know this kind of narrative and counter narratives ago, and so I just i'm just fascinated.

523
01:06:18.360 --> 01:06:24.060
Jonathan Powers: How do people try to make sense, out of things that don't make sense, where do they turn, why do they turn to these things.

524
01:06:24.990 --> 01:06:35.790
Jonathan Powers: And I find it like the way that I kind of put it is, I think that you have photos over the light for our culture ufo or the last 60 years just kind of become modern day American folklore.

525
01:06:36.210 --> 01:06:42.660
Jonathan Powers: night I mean like we say other folklore and then we still have folklore but it's kind of become this new iteration of folklore.

526
01:06:43.230 --> 01:06:54.810
Jonathan Powers: And and i'm just fascinated by it, I read the books on it and then there's also just these government things that's like hard to explain like, why do they deny this, but then over here they have this whole group that's dedicated to it, you know.

527
01:06:55.530 --> 01:06:58.080
Jonathan Powers: Like something's going on here I don't think it's you know what.

528
01:06:58.140 --> 01:07:03.780
Jonathan Powers: yeah these people are here, claiming but there's definitely something, and so that part of it kind of.

529
01:07:04.260 --> 01:07:12.540
Jonathan Powers: interest me intrigues me like what's going on here with the government and why are they not saying this, but then there's this other narrative over here what's the true narrative.

530
01:07:13.020 --> 01:07:23.160
Jonathan Powers: it's that whole X files, the truth is out there, you know i'm i'm bold enough to actually say that yes, there is truth and it is out there, you know.

531
01:07:23.610 --> 01:07:34.650
Jonathan Powers: yeah shins week believe that so um so I know that and but then there's this other way here to say this is just kind of a fascinating fun thing to do to get into and so.

532
01:07:35.130 --> 01:07:53.220
Jonathan Powers: I hear the reports I read the reports I read books on it and i'm fascinated by why people come up with these theories and where they go with it and so many times to think what does that mean theologically I have a I have a book on my shelf up here called would you baptize an extraterrestrial.

533
01:07:53.460 --> 01:07:58.170
Jonathan Powers: So you know, think about sacraments you know in some traditions and things.

534
01:07:59.460 --> 01:08:08.610
Jonathan Powers: As they see baptism as a sacrament this particular way, what does that mean if we were to actually discover alien life so things like that become creative ways of thinking about theology to like.

535
01:08:08.610 --> 01:08:09.690
Andy Miller III: What if this really was real.

536
01:08:11.280 --> 01:08:17.520
Jonathan Powers: But i'm not like saying there's ufo is out there and we need to look at some stuff like that it's just the narratives and then the cream.

537
01:08:18.480 --> 01:08:18.810
Jonathan Powers: yeah.

538
01:08:19.050 --> 01:08:21.210
Jonathan Powers: And crazy star thing about theology yeah.

539
01:08:21.420 --> 01:08:35.070
Andy Miller III: it's a deep answer I like it, because it's a I hadn't had a neighbor and I he listens to the podcast and he might Larry and he would he he wasn't a Christian didn't believe in God, but he did believe in ghosts.

540
01:08:35.520 --> 01:08:38.310
Andy Miller III: Okay, and he was a ghost hunter he would go around the.

541
01:08:38.970 --> 01:08:39.540
Andy Miller III: Mind like.

542
01:08:39.870 --> 01:08:45.960
Andy Miller III: A hot beds for ghost activity and so to me, I felt like that was like you're you believe in it the non.

543
01:08:45.960 --> 01:08:49.230
Andy Miller III: Physical in like so let's let's let's work through that.

544
01:08:49.410 --> 01:08:52.380
Andy Miller III: You know I wish I could say cross the goalpost forum.

545
01:08:52.500 --> 01:08:57.600
Andy Miller III: right but it but, nevertheless, like I think there's something to that now I here's my ufo story.

546
01:08:58.620 --> 01:08:58.980
Andy Miller III: You.

547
01:08:59.940 --> 01:09:01.350
Andy Miller III: And I were in the same place.

548
01:09:01.590 --> 01:09:01.800
Jonathan Powers: we're.

549
01:09:01.830 --> 01:09:19.380
Andy Miller III: All the asbury university and I have somebody with me coming back from Center college, I saw this big circular green thing go over and and I looked at Jeff barrington who teaches asbury university I said, did you see that and we both said we can't deny it now he might deny me now.

550
01:09:19.800 --> 01:09:20.580
Jonathan Powers: There is.

551
01:09:20.670 --> 01:09:26.100
Andy Miller III: I don't know what it was, but certainly there are unidentified flying objects.

552
01:09:26.160 --> 01:09:27.330
Jonathan Powers: yeah no doubt about that.

553
01:09:27.510 --> 01:09:28.170
Andy Miller III: that's a reality.

554
01:09:28.200 --> 01:09:30.600
Jonathan Powers: yeah but where do they come from the question yeah.

555
01:09:30.630 --> 01:09:42.030
Jonathan Powers: Right right, yes, there are an identified and that's some of the tools to see like where the government, you know some of this stuff was happening in the 50s and 60s government testing, of course, she didn't want people know about it, because you didn't want to get out there to.

556
01:09:42.360 --> 01:09:49.860
Jonathan Powers: other nations that were at war with and like so there's some hidden I mean that makes sense there's other things, though I mean it really is like.

557
01:09:50.280 --> 01:09:59.970
Jonathan Powers: I don't know like it's hard to explain we don't know what to do with it and how do we begin thing, but I love going to that place, what does it mean theologically if we really start unpacking this and think.

558
01:10:00.150 --> 01:10:01.020
Andy Miller III: About yes, yes.

559
01:10:01.560 --> 01:10:16.170
Jonathan Powers: Can we accept some of this in light of our Christian views in our theology is there some things that have to be rejected, how would we what what does it where's it push us to to think about you know, like I said, would you baptize an extraterrestrial.

560
01:10:17.610 --> 01:10:18.090
Andy Miller III: Would you.

561
01:10:18.810 --> 01:10:20.580
Jonathan Powers: um there's it depends.

562
01:10:22.830 --> 01:10:24.270
Jonathan Powers: Are they sent into you know.

563
01:10:25.710 --> 01:10:27.420
Jonathan Powers: What kind of creature is that.

564
01:10:28.530 --> 01:10:34.050
Jonathan Powers: yeah and what how would they continue to be in the church and.

565
01:10:34.080 --> 01:10:36.900
Andy Miller III: This is why the Salvation Army doesn't practice the sacraments.

566
01:10:37.080 --> 01:10:37.650
Jonathan Powers: Because all.

567
01:10:38.220 --> 01:10:39.360
Andy Miller III: Just because that question is.

568
01:10:39.360 --> 01:10:40.080
Andy Miller III: Because my question.

569
01:10:40.110 --> 01:10:41.970
Jonathan Powers: yeah that's really funny actually.

570
01:10:43.770 --> 01:10:53.520
Jonathan Powers: it's it's fascinating and I do find again like you were saying your friend, years ago, so I think that modernity disenchanted us to such a degree.

571
01:10:54.000 --> 01:11:02.490
Jonathan Powers: longing for it like we turned all kinds of places to be enchanted again and it's interesting to see where will actually go and where will suspend belief.

572
01:11:03.540 --> 01:11:11.040
Jonathan Powers: I mean not in a bad way actually in a good way that will actually suspend belief, based on nothing but empirical evidence, you know.

573
01:11:11.100 --> 01:11:17.010
Jonathan Powers: yeah to say there's got to be more than just what we can see improve by science that that is real.

574
01:11:18.510 --> 01:11:28.440
Jonathan Powers: And so those those open doorways and those gateways to say Okay, this is, you know this is great this fascinating and how do we, how do we kind of think about this more so.

575
01:11:28.830 --> 01:11:29.520
Jonathan Powers: Again right.

576
01:11:29.640 --> 01:11:32.250
Andy Miller III: yeah longest answer i've ever had this question.

577
01:11:32.340 --> 01:11:33.990
Andy Miller III: Well, maybe the best now they're.

578
01:11:34.350 --> 01:11:34.980
Andy Miller III: good ones.

579
01:11:35.580 --> 01:11:41.190
Andy Miller III: Some people are really thrown off by it, but I never had somebody run with it like that, and to by law.

580
01:11:42.180 --> 01:11:46.920
Andy Miller III: You have questions send them to Dr Johnson university as very similar.

581
01:11:47.730 --> 01:11:48.270
Jonathan Powers: Right yeah.

582
01:11:49.230 --> 01:11:53.850
Andy Miller III: it's been great to have you on here and we'll post links, when the time comes to share.

583
01:11:53.850 --> 01:11:58.980
Andy Miller III: Also, know we're really thankful for your work here, and thanks for coming on the podcast thanks everybody for joining.

584
01:11:58.980 --> 01:12:00.480
Jonathan Powers: Thank you, thank you for having me thanks.