Is the Bible Trustworthy? with Ben Shaw

Dr. Ben Shaw provides the clear introduction needed for understanding the New Testament's historical reliability. In his book, Trustworthy, he systematically surveys key issues related to New Testament reliability and provides guidance for those setting out to explore the evidence.

Here's the truth: we can trust the New Testament not only for its historical accuracy but also as a guide to life. I enjoyed this conversation and think you will too.

Youtube - https://youtu.be/vZQQ4sbm2gk

Audio - https://andymilleriii.com/media/podcast

Apple -  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-to-the-story-with-dr-andy-miller/id1569988895?uo=4

You can find his book here - https://www.ivpress.com/trustworthy

If you are interested in learning more about my two video-accompanied courses,

Contender: Going Deeper in the Book of Jude and

Heaven and Other Destinations: A Biblical Journey Beyond this World , visit courses.andymilleriii.com

And don’t forget about my book that came out last summer, Contender, which is available on Amazon!

Five Steps to Deeper Teaching and Preaching - Recently, I updated this PDF document and added a 45-minute teaching video with slides, explaining this tool. It's like a mini-course. If you sign up for my list, I will send this free resource to you. Sign up here - www.AndyMillerIII.com or Five Steps to Deeper Teaching and Preaching.

Today’s episode is brought to you by Wesley Biblical Seminary. Interested in going deeper in your faith? Check out our certificate programs, B.A., M.A.s, M.Div., and D.Min degrees. You will study with world-class faculty and the most racially diverse student body in the country. www.wbs.edu

Thanks too to Phil Laeger for my podcast music. You can find out about Phil's music at https://www.laeger.net

Transcript:

Welcome to the more, to the story. Podcast I'm so glad that you have come along. My name is Andy Miller, and I'm the President at Wesley Biblical Seminary, where we are developing trusted leaders for faithful churches. We have our largest student body ever this fall with more than 600 students at Wbs. It's kind of a funny moment for us, because I just had a great time last weekend at our alumni reunion. And I sent an email to all of our alumni. We have 580 alumni, but

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Andy Miller III: we have 660 students right now. So we have more current students. We have alumni. We're so thankful for our alumni and the kind of the foundations that we have at Wbs. But we'd love for you to find out more about us@wbs.edu. We have a bachelor's masters, doctoral degrees. We have a lay initiative that's starting right in this fall season, called the Wesley Institute. We'd love for you to check that out.

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Andy Miller III: Also, I'm thankful for opportunities to engage many of you online. If you go to Andy Miller, the 3rd.com. That's andymilleri.com. If you sign up for my email list, I'll send you a free tool called 5 steps to deeper teaching and preaching, and with that comes like a 45 min

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Andy Miller III: teaching session. And then an 8 page Pdf, that you can use as you're preparing to teach or preach, and it gives you some. It's a kind of a summary of the inductive Bible study method, with some creative prompts for you to be able to use in that process. So I'd love for you to find out about that. I also have some courses that are available there, a course on the afterlife called Heaven and other destinations.

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Andy Miller III: and then, of course, on the book of Jude 6 session. So if you're looking for a study this fall, or if you're looking for something for a small group or a Sunday school class, go to my website and click on courses. And you can find those areas. There's interactive discussion boards. There are discussion guides. And then a video teaching that's available there. So I'd love to share that with you. So you can find out about that at Andy Miller, the 3rd.com. All right. I am so glad to welcome into podcast my new friend.

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Andy Miller III: Ben Shaw, Dr. Ben Shaw, who is the president of core ministries, is that? Is that what core ministries? Ben, is that the right thing.

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Ben Shaw: Core, Core, Apologise.

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Andy Miller III: CORE. Now there, then, there are some people in my audience who come from the tradition of the Salvation Army, and they call their churches core CORP. S. But this is CORE, right.

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Ben Shaw: Yes, yes.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, what is core.

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Ben Shaw: Yes, core apologetics. So we are. We actually started off initially as a doubters ministry. Ron Davis was the founder.

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Andy Miller III: Okay.

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Ben Shaw: Apologetics, and it actually came about as I started working with Dr. Gary Habermas on his magnum opus that he's been working on for like the past, decade or so.

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Andy Miller III: Okay.

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Ben Shaw: And Dr. Habermas used to talk to a lot of doubters, and when we started working on the Magnum opus he was like, Hey, I can't talk to all these doubters and do the magnum opus at the same time.

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Ben Shaw: Can you guys help? He's talking to his Phd students, can you guys help me talk to some doubters, and Ron put his hand up. He's like, yep, I want to do that because I want to do my dissertation on doubt.

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Ben Shaw: And so he's talked over that well, over a thousand doubters since then.

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Ben Shaw: and he started Core as just a a project where he'd be talking with doubters, helping people with doubts.

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Ben Shaw: And

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Ben Shaw: Last year he started talking to me. He goes, hey, Ben.

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Ben Shaw: if you jump on with us and join with me, we might be able to do a lot more than just dealing with doubt. Maybe we could do a lot more as far as help building up apologetics, giving some of the core truths of Christianity, and I was praying at the time trying to figure out where God was leading me, and I was like Ron. This sounds like a great idea. Let's do that. So we relaunched core apologetics in October, November of last year.

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Andy Miller III: Okay.

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Ben Shaw: And so what we're trying to do with it is we're trying to help churches and organizations use apologetics to help build and equip disciples, but also minister to those who are doubting. And so for me, part of this, what's good is Ron has. He's got a passion for dealing with doubt I was actually on his Dissertation Committee on his.

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Andy Miller III: Oh, wow! Okay.

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Ben Shaw: Doubt. Yeah. So we were talking all the time about it about these sorts of things. And

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Ben Shaw: my part of my story. I'm sure it'll be relevant later, too. But I got saved at a young age, but I really didn't get discipled.

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Andy Miller III: Okay.

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Ben Shaw: Until I went to liberty. So college and I went to a couple of Christian schools couple of public schools, too. So God had some oasis along the way, but I really wasn't discipled. I didn't even know. Paul wrote many of the New Testament books.

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Andy Miller III: Wow, interesting.

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Ben Shaw: Honestly, yeah. And then I learned that at liberty. I'm like, Oh, my goodness! And I tried reading the Bible by myself a bunch of times couldn't do that. And so but as I went to liberty, I found out we can ask questions, and they want to talk about these things. They've studied these things. They've thought about these things.

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Ben Shaw: Let me keep asking questions. And so I've always understood. Disciples can have questions, and they're not doubts. Sometimes disciples have doubts, like John the Baptist does in Matthew 11, for example. But if you're going to give a reason for the hope that you have the apologetics, you know, Peter, verse

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Ben Shaw: we have to know the hope that we have. And as we learn and grow to know that hope, we're gonna ask questions. And so.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah.

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Ben Shaw: That's what I was. I I was doing and I was just asking questions about that. And if you love and want to read Scripture. You're gonna ask questions about Scripture. And so those were some of the things we did. So long story short,

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Ben Shaw: studying with Habermas. Both Ron and I studied with Habermas. The resurrection is pretty fundamental to corp apologetics. So one of our priorities is to help get the work he's done out of the seminary into churches, into organizations. So we can have

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Ben Shaw: the leaders at churches, new believers, growing believers, mature believers.

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Ben Shaw: having a deep understanding of the evidence for the resurrection, because that's that's the cornerstone that's of 1st importance, like Paul says in 1st Corinthians 15. So how can we equip them that way? No matter your your emotions, no matter your circumstances, it's a reality you have to address

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Ben Shaw: and think about when you're acting and what you're doing. So that's a fundamental important part. We also

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Ben Shaw: stress reliability of the New Testament, as you can imagine and dealing with doubt. And we do some worldview and discipleship. But we're trying to help

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Ben Shaw: build disciples so that they can go and then build disciples. So that's that's 1 of our goals. It's not ben apologetics. It's not Ron apologetics. It's core apologetics. We want to help people major on the majors because there's a lot of

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Ben Shaw: debates on things where we we don't even have the fundamentals. Right? Let's start getting.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, that's right.

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Ben Shaw: Yeah, we didn't talk about this earlier, but I do, jujitsu. And this is.

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Andy Miller III: Okay.

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Ben Shaw: Analogy. I use a lot

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Ben Shaw: If you're just starting a jujitsu, you don't jump in by learning a flying, you know. Triangle choke or something like that. You got to learn the basics. You got to understand the fundamentals before you can start getting into the crazy stuff.

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Ben Shaw: And it's like that with everything. And so we're trying to help people actually return back to those majors. You know, majoring on those things, understanding the resurrection, reading Scripture, knowing Scripture, and then

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Ben Shaw: that should have an effect in your life. How you live that out with your family, with your kids, all those sorts of things with your finances, with your job. So.

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Andy Miller III: This is really helpful.

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Ben Shaw: Anything.

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Andy Miller III: I think one things that with with these core foundational pieces and apologetics is that you can't overstate them. Enough. We might you might be. You're so familiar with it, and and to a certain degree I am, too, though I haven't like done an apologetics degree, and we might think I get every now and then when I would, while I even bring these basic ideas of minimal facts up in

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Andy Miller III: and we'll talk about that later in in a in a sermonth. Oh, well, they've already heard this or Yeah, no, I think like leaders, people who are trying to help serve other people.

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Andy Miller III: Th, this is one of these things that's necessarily over communicated like, let people come to you and say I got it already. Please tell me, stop it. In in that case you probably need to keep going, so I think that was appealing to me when I started to, when I saw your book, which we'll talk about here in a little bit too trustworthy this new Ivp book. Just so, you know, folks as a main, I main thing we'll get to today. But I have too many questions out after Ben's 1st thing

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Andy Miller III: I want to follow up on. But it's 13 arguments for the reliability of the New Testament. This was this published by Ivp. It's just come out here in 2024. So we want to walk through a few of those arguments. But there's a couple of things that you've already indicated, I think, are helpful for us, and and you've said Gary Habermas's name, and some of my audience would be like, Oh, man, this guy's study of Habermas, this, this is kind of a a

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Andy Miller III: key thinker for our time, and he's given a forward for your book, and he has established several things that are at the foundation of what you're doing. But you have beyond an academic relationship with him, being being in the same school. Now, now, kind of like serving as a peer to a certain degree. You have a deeper relationship that I think many people would would find interesting. Tell, tell us about that. How you got to know Gary.

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Ben Shaw: Yeah, yeah, that's funny. One part. I didn't mention. The main reason I went to liberty in the 1st place, was because they had a hockey team. The only reason I went I heard.

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Andy Miller III: I didn't know they had hockey until you told you told me I.

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Ben Shaw: Didn't realize.

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Andy Miller III: So.

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Ben Shaw: They have an amazing ice rink on their campus, and it's gotten even better since I came. So now they have a jumbotron. It's all on campus, too. So you know what? It's amazing. They didn't have a jumbotron when I was there, and I I thought it was amazing. So I went there just for that reason. Gorgeous.

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Andy Miller III: From South Florida, too. By the way, right, you're from South Florida.

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Ben Shaw: Yeah.

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Andy Miller III: And now.

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Ben Shaw: I am.

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Andy Miller III: I don't know this about Florida. I I was my last appointment. The Salvage Army was the area commander for the Salvage Army in Tampa and the most popular team there of all. Even even when Tom Brady was there with the bucks.

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Ben Shaw: Wait!

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Andy Miller III: The Tampa Bay lightning. People do not realize that hockey is big in Florida, but go.

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Ben Shaw: We have a lot of guys from Canada who retire, and where.

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Andy Miller III: Yes.

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Ben Shaw: They're going to. They're going to Florida. They know they know a good thing when they see it. Plus. There's tax benefits for those players down there, anyway.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Ben Shaw: But I started playing really late. I started playing when I was about 15 years old, which is very late, but I was pretty miserable. Because I wasn't discipled, and I was struggling with yeah.

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Ben Shaw: you know, there's a great song from the nineties that says, How are you gonna stand if you don't understand. And so I would. I was not understanding. So I was not standing. I was tossed here and there by every wind of South Florida doctrine.

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Andy Miller III: Ha!

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Ben Shaw: Post modernism and things like that. And so but I did think, okay.

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Ben Shaw: if I play hockey, I might be able to meet a girl that might work out, you know. That's kind of my best bet right now. And so I started playing hockey. I played every single day I lived in Connecticut, for I actually moved to Connecticut for a few years to play before going to liberty.

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Ben Shaw: and then, when I went to Liberty.

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Ben Shaw: I met my wife by the way, at liberty through the hockey team, so that all worked.

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Andy Miller III: Very good. I'm glad that worked out.

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Ben Shaw: Long time to execute, but it worked

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Ben Shaw: but I met this guy. So one of the the goalies from the goalie, from the hockey team. He was taking me through the halls one day, and he's like, Hey, I just want to introduce you. This is a former hockey coach, Gary Havermash, I was like, Oh.

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Andy Miller III: Melissa.

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Ben Shaw: Former hockey coach. You know we're the new guys. You're old school. I'm sure you were good, but you're not as good as we are. We are, you know.

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Andy Miller III: Hi.

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Ben Shaw: Crop here and then we met him a couple of other times, and then in my senior year I took a class called Christian Evidences, and we read this book, the Case for the Resurrection. I was like, this is the hockey coach. What's he doing? And then I found out. He's the world's leading expert on the resurrection.

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Ben Shaw: And then so I I was like, Oh, that's really neat. And then over the years after that I started to follow up with him and talked about the resurrection, and we just he had an opening for me to be a research assistant. So then I got to study the resurrection and get my degree for free. And I'm like, this is

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Ben Shaw: awesome. That's a great. It's a great setup. Yeah. So I was able to do that, and and so we did that.

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Andy Miller III: Got, and for somebody who doesn't know who we're talking about you said the world's leading authority on the Resurrection. But what if you could summarize. If you're like an elevator with somebody, and they ask it. So who is that? What? What's his significance, and what what is it that he's done.

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Ben Shaw: Yeah, he's he's probably forgotten more about the resurrection than you know. You and I both know together. But so, yeah, he's been studying the resurrection since 1,970.

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Ben Shaw: that's probably a Conservative number. So you know well, over 50 years, and he's debated a number of prominent atheists, especially Anthony Flew, who some of you guys may know from the mid nineties, late nineties

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Ben Shaw: as well. Anthony flew ended up becoming a theist later on. But Habermas also has had a number of debates on Jesus's resurrection. He's developed what's called the minimal fact approach, which is the most used approach for defending, discussing, or demonstrating Jesus's resurrection. And it's very simple. A hockey guy like me could get it. That's why I think I liked it so much.

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Ben Shaw: and it involves using well evidenced historical facts that are widely accepted by virtually all scholars, and it doesn't matter their background if they think the Bible's inspired. If they think it's unreliable and filled with errors.

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Ben Shaw: they still believe these facts because of that 1st criteria criterion that I just mentioned, that's highly evidenced.

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Ben Shaw: And so the facts are very once, we probably all know Jesus died by crucifixion, that His disciples had experiences of the risen Jesus that Paul converted that James converted that the disciples were transformed, and were willing to suffer and die for those for their beliefs. So those are things that we all tend to know, but understanding that

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Ben Shaw: yes, we know them, but they're actually very well evidenced historically.

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Ben Shaw: so much so that virtually all scholars grant grant these historical events. Now, what's really interesting about them is

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Ben Shaw: those few facts right there make it very difficult for the major alternative theories to explain away Jesus's resurrection. So.

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Andy Miller III: Let's get into that. Now, that's your 13, th your 13th point in this book. Yeah, right? It's interesting that that's the last one. Nevertheless, like you smiled. There, so is there something behind that? Why, you.

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Ben Shaw: Yeah, there's a reason. There's a reason why. Because if my 1st 12 arguments are terrible and I'm wrong, completely wrong on them, we still have Jesus's resurrection. So, like I just mentioned a moment ago, even if the the Bible, the New Testament, is unreliable, we still have these minimal facts which are highly evidenced and widely agreed upon, even by people who think it is unreliable. We still have Jesus's resurrection. And so we still have the centerpiece of Christianity.

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Andy Miller III: I mean, probably when the 1st Level, the 1st level of people come to when they they hear these type of arguments, or they see somebody who went to a seminary or is a Christian philosopher, whatever, or Christian historian they're gonna say, but you're basing everything on your text right? Of course your book tells you these things, but you've said it multiple times. I don't think we can overstate this, that you're saying

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Andy Miller III: all scholar, or almost all scholar, or is it all scholar? I mean? Some people deny.

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Ben Shaw: I would say virtually all because.

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Andy Miller III: Yes.

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Ben Shaw: You know, they say, in academics, you know, you've got to publish something that

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Ben Shaw: So anyway, yeah.

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Andy Miller III: I lost you for a second, so forgive me.

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Ben Shaw: That's all right. It was a really, it was a really good joke, that's all.

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Andy Miller III: I mean.

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Ben Shaw: So let's.

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Andy Miller III: Pick up I'll have on my well, I'll I generally don't have to edit things out, but I just, and maybe I'll still stay there.

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Andy Miller III: So you said virtual like.

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Ben Shaw: Virtually all.

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Andy Miller III: Virtually all acting. So pick up there just 3, 2, 1.

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Ben Shaw: Yeah, virtually all scholars. We always say virtually all scholars, because someone could come out tomorrow and publish something that's just out there. And we see in Academia now, people can publish all sorts of things. So we just say virtually all scholars. Because and and again, it's the the evidence for it. We're not. We're definitely not saying it's true, because everyone says it's true. We're saying, Hey, there are these multiple lines of evidence.

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Ben Shaw: And these multiple lines of evidence have convinced a wide variety of scholars. I actually have a book on my shelf back there that just focuses on Jewish scholarship on Jesus's resurrection, and go through these minimal facts as well. And so it's a great book by

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Ben Shaw: Dr. Mishkin is his name, and so recommend that one as well. But in any event, that's that's what the minimal facts is able to do. Present these facts and it unpacks them historically, using just

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Ben Shaw: everyday normal historical methods.

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Andy Miller III: Give them to us again. 1, 2, 3.

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Ben Shaw: Jesus's death by crucifixion. The disciples had experiences of the risen Jesus, that the disciples were transformed as a result of those experiences, so that they were willing to suffer and die we could. Also. I didn't mention this earlier, but it's proclaimed very early 1st Corinthians 15. Most scholars attribute to being dated to the early thirties, the creedal information there

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Ben Shaw: the conversion of James, who was Jesus's brother, but was skeptical during Jesus's life he became the leader of the early Church, and we have 1st century evidence that he died and was martyred. And then the conversion of Paul, who was also, not just a skeptic, but a persecutor of the early Church. And then we also 1st century evidence, too, for his martyrdom.

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Andy Miller III: Okay. So I wanna make sure I'm getting this cause we oh, we we said one and 2, and getting between 2 and 3.

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Ben Shaw: I added another one, Jesus's death is number one. Yeah.

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Andy Miller III: Okay. Jesus's death.

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Ben Shaw: Death. Because there's different. You can use different lists depending upon your audience, and how skeptical they are. That's why there's some flexibility there. Jesus's death

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Ben Shaw: the experiences of the disciples. Yeah, you have that these experiences are preached or reported very early. That's that thirties ad comment. The disciples were transformed as a result of these experiences, such that they were willing to.

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Andy Miller III: 4. That's 4. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

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Ben Shaw: 5 is the conversion of James, and then 6 is the conversion of Paul.

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Andy Miller III: Great. Now I I've done some work on Jude, do you? Do you think Jude is also kind of like in that same period of coming along with James.

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Ben Shaw: Yes. So what's interesting about James, compared to Jude is that James is specifically mentioned in the Credo in that credle.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure.

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Ben Shaw: Section of 1st Corinthians 15. So he definitely gets more attention, and James was also the leader of the early church, and James is also mentioned in Galatians 1, 19, where Paul goes 3 years after his conversion he meets with Peter in 18, and then he says, I also saw James. He doesn't mention Jude. So

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Ben Shaw: there's a little bit of a at least focus going on with James. There.

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Andy Miller III: So I I did a I did a 1st person monologue of Jude, and I just go ahead and suggest that you know the brothers of Jesus, based on other New Testament data work, didn't believe in him as indicated, so that Jude's in the same camp. But I I think there's something to to about just acknowledging these basic facts. And then that, then, is the foundation like you don't start with. Let W. What are the wrong starting points.

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Andy Miller III: Ben, like, where where do? Where do sometimes we go when we're talking to people who have doubts? The the we we end up making an argument, maybe about something in the life of the Church, maybe about a view of the authority of Scripture. Where are some of those wrong starting points.

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Ben Shaw: Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. And that that may depend on the context. One of the reasons why I like the minimal facts approach is, it keeps the main thing, the main thing it keeps us focusing on the majors. Now, so there's a section in the book on dating and dating is a great topic. It's an important topic. But if we want to talk about the gospel, for example, do we want to debate whether Mark was written in 40 Ad. Or 65 ad.

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Ben Shaw: You know, those are good. They're interesting, especially for you know, academic guys, we like talking about that stuff. Yeah. But we're talking about the gospel. I want to stay on the gospel. So I think that's 1 area of value of the minimal facts approach. Another is that

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Ben Shaw: if I'm struggling with factual questions, I need to have some factual answers. So if I'm told, for example, like Hey, you know.

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Ben Shaw: how do we know, you know that, James? We just mentioned James and Jude were skeptics? How do we? How do we know that you know? Just trust that Jesus is always going to be with you and His presence. But if I'm doubting the resurrection, I don't think His presence is with me. I'm asking a factual question and trying to address my emotions

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Ben Shaw: is, you're kind of getting the wires crossed there. So we wanted to, and vice versa. If I have an emotional doubt. I don't want to. A factual answer is not going to be able to tackle it the same way. So those are 2 kind of kind of models there, where you can kind of go the wrong way. Another is

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Ben Shaw: just forgetting to give reasons like just some of the unpacking. Some of the the reasons, like the Crucifixion itself, is very embarrassing. You know, that was the the punishment of slaves. We take it for granted today. But back then Paul says it was foolishness to the Gentiles and a stumbling block to the Jews. He's like everyone I'm talking to like thinks it's ridiculous. And so it it was a serious issue back then. So

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Ben Shaw: those are helpful. And that's that's intuitive, I think, as we start unpacking. Yeah, that is embarrassing back then, like, we don't just volunteer these embarrassing things. Or if we're going to make something up, we're gonna make you know the best story in the world, not where he was getting hit and flogged and crucified.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, for sure.

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Andy Miller III: You you mentioned earlier talking about the dating, the early dating as being significant. And you have a chapter that works through the creedal traditions. And I and I find that this to this to be something that there seems to be a block for people getting the reality of

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Andy Miller III: New New Testament material being creedal or or hymn like like hymns that are in the New Testament. It just doesn't always connect with folks. But why, you know, people know the Apostles Creed and I seen Creed these type of things. But why? How can we get to understand the evidence that comes within the New Testament itself. Of these creedal traditions.

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Ben Shaw: Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. And I think that's exactly right. When we hear Creed, we immediately think like Nicene Creed, or something like that. That's, you know.

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Ben Shaw: 300 years later these creeds are actually the creeds in the New Testament are oral traditions that are preserved in writing. They they didn't have quotation marks and footnotes back then, but they would identify. Or there are ways in which we can identify these early oral traditions that are preserved in a text. So even though the text, like 1st Corinthians, may be written around 55 Ad. The oral tradition that's preserved in the text dates back to the early thirties, and they go. Okay. Well, how do you? How do you know that? What are you talking about?

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Ben Shaw: Well, 1st Corinthians 15 has one of the best and most easily identifiable creeds in the New Testament most of the time. If you can read Greek that helps and actually what you'll find in some Bibles now.

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Ben Shaw: like the Hcsb. I believe. And some others. They'll bracket out what they believe to be a creed or a hymn, and but in 1st Corinthians 15, it's very explicit, because Paul says, I delivered to you as of 1st importance what I also received, and so those the words delivered and received are 2 technical words that a rabbi would use for formally handing off tradition.

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Ben Shaw: And it's kind of like it would be like a form of catechesis. Back, then I I, this is what I need to make sure. You guys understand, because this is what we're preaching and teaching.

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Ben Shaw: and in a oral culture. You need to make it memorable, or, have different cadences to it. And we have many songs like that today, like especially children's songs and things like that because we can memorize them. We we probably know them even now, decades later. Yeah. So very similar back then. But Paul says, I delivered to you that which I received, and then he goes on again. This is a 1st importance. What's the 1st importance?

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Ben Shaw: It sounds a awful lot like the minimal facts that Jesus died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised again 3 days later, according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the 12, and then he goes on to list a number of appearances. So

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Ben Shaw: we have, and then he goes on to talk about his own suffering about by the way, his own willingness to suffer with beasts in Ephesus, for example. But anyway. So here we see some language, and there's some cadence, and some, and that, and that and that language a former, a late rather Jewish New Testament scholar,

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Ben Shaw: Pintus lapid. He knows 8 different reasons why that information, first, st Corinthians 15, is a creed, so scholars have a bunch of different ways. But the the most easiest is just listen to Paul. He's telling you I'm delivering to you what I also receive. So remember when I gave this to you guys. And then he's like you said a moment ago, we never want to stop reminding one another of these things. That's exactly what Paul's doing. Hey, guys, don't forget what I told you. Remember this. This is what I gave you, but if Paul gave it to them

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Ben Shaw: when he 1st visited around 50 a. D. Well, when did Paul get it?

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Ben Shaw: And who did? Who did Paul get it from.

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Andy Miller III: Right, right.

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Ben Shaw: No.

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Ben Shaw: Paul actually helps us in Galatians 1, 18, like we just talked about. This is where scholars think that Paul not only got this tradition, but probably all the traditions we have oral traditions that we have preserved. And so because, he says, 3 years after my conversion I went to Jerusalem and met his Terasi is the Greek word there

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Ben Shaw: has to do with 1st hand knowledge. Getting to know very well, Peter, one of the leading disciples, and James was also there, the leader of the Jerusalem Church. So

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Ben Shaw: 2 really important guys. And then Paul says in Galatians, 2, 14 years later I went back again, and John was there. So Paul's getting this. The this information confirmed at that early date.

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Ben Shaw: and again, scholars can date that depending on when you take Jesus, crucifixion, and some other things, we just say early thirties. That's the bottom line we need to take away from there. But a lot of scholars. Take that information in 1st Corinthians 15 to not only be very early, but it's connected with eyewitnesses. So it's very powerful, very strong evidence for the Resurrection. Now

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Ben Shaw: the chapters on creeds that's just the best one. But.

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Andy Miller III: Perfect.

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Ben Shaw: Number of creeds in the New Testament and creeds. There's a number of different words that scholars may use confessions, kerygma, homologia, or same word. There's a so there's a number of different work oral traditions. I think we've been using, too. So you can use these different words. But and scholars kind of debate there's anywhere from a dozen or 2 creeds in the New Testament to 50.

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Ben Shaw: So it just depends. And so there's some that are black and white, like the 1st Corinthians. 15. There's some that are a little more fuzzy, but some other well known ones, maybe like Romans, 1, 3 to 4, Romans, 19. If you confess that we're confessing right? So that's that that element there. If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord

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Ben Shaw: and then flipping.

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Andy Miller III: Beans too.

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Ben Shaw: Left.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.

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Ben Shaw: Yeah, yeah, that's you. You mentioned.

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Andy Miller III: Colossians, one the.

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Ben Shaw: Same death.

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Andy Miller III: I I think most translations now are indenting them in a way, when you see that. So I think that that's just a clue like it's it's almost like, even if you look at I don't buy the argument completely, but I do. I do take Pauline authorship of Ephesians, and and often it it.

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Andy Miller III: The reasons that people don't think that Paul wrote Ephesians is because that has a different vocabulary which I was, I was thinking, well, why would that be a read? Just because but nevertheless, but that argument itself never stood up to me. But then I saw Marcus Bart, Carl, Bart's son, in his Anchor Bible Commentary, which I probably came out in the seventies or so he see he sees the Ephesians almost as a liturgical document

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Andy Miller III: that is filled with creeds, dozens of them, and and just in these few chapters. And so in that Anchor Bible commentary he indents all more than more than I. It's hard hard to understand, like there'll be so much there, but he looks at it like as if you're opening up.

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Andy Miller III: and people would have been joining in and understanding, reciting these things. And and this is what's so important, like the nature of the different type of culture

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Andy Miller III: that the New Testament times were in. I think that's why why would create. I mean, it seems pretty obvious, Ben, but I just want you to go ahead and explicate it there. Why why were creed so important in this culture.

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Ben Shaw: Yeah, there's a there's a I believe I footnoted the names escaping me. I think it's Coleman. It's Coleman Oscar.

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Ben Shaw: Martin Hale. Yeah. Yeah. Or Oscar Coleman, who? They give a nice breakdown of 4 or 5 different reasons why these creeds would have been invented. Preaching is one of them.

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Ben Shaw: Using it for polemics would be another for encouragement of believers would be another and and if you're in the case of persecution. You need to be able to recall these things to your mind, like Paul when he's in jail and in Philippians 4, he says, dwell on those things which are good and holy, and all those sorts of things. So there's a number of different reasons why they could be used and said. But also I didn't mention this I would like to. I wanted to kind of

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Ben Shaw: steal the the chapter or the title of the recent book that came out. 2 dozen or so arguments for God's existence.

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Andy Miller III: Okay. Yeah.

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Ben Shaw: Yeah, it's a good title.

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Ben Shaw: for a number of different reasons. But there's more arguments than just the 13, and not even talking about. You know the use of a secretary, or something like that in.

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Andy Miller III: Right, sure.

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Ben Shaw: Position of a letter, and how that can affect

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Ben Shaw: the letter the language used, and all those sorts, and what what freedom they had to, and all that sort of stuff to. As the letter was being written, so I think those are all important. But as you back to your point on that. Yeah, they would receive letters, and we know that, too, that Paul would be like, Hey, expect them to get a letter and read it to the believers there. So there's those different elements. So if we don't always have, we're just spoiled today, where we always have access to a source or a document, or something.

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Andy Miller III: Sure, sure.

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Ben Shaw: Where back? Then you you have to remember it, or you don't have it, or you have to sit here and practice it and dwell on it, and that's going to help you remember it, because then you'll have it. So I I always joke

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Ben Shaw: like Habermas. We go to have her mass. We have this joke when we talk about. He's got a lockbox of a memory. He can recall things from his studies. He could tell you when lapid, you know, published his book, and with probably with who he published it with and my brain I have. My memory is like nothing. His memory is like to like what Michael Phelps is to water. His brain is to academia like my brain.

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Ben Shaw: not like, but

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Ben Shaw: as I can type and find something on my computer almost as fast as he can remember it. So it's just a different, you know. There, we're at a different. You know, we've got more technology than when he was doing his dissertation on a typewriter. And so now, how much more so back then, when even just getting something written was costly, expensive, and.

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Andy Miller III: Right.

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Ben Shaw: Time, consuming, so.

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Andy Miller III: And it's just not a literate culture like there, not as many people would have been, so many less. People would be able to read and write in that that period, too. You know you you bring up Hebron. I've never met him. I need. I need to make sure to make that happen? At some point. But I I love hearing like folks just Google, him or Youtube, him. And to to me, his voice is so it it does. You don't feel too intimidated, and I come from the Chicago area.

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Ben Shaw: I think he is.

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Andy Miller III: From that region as well. It just sounds like I felt so. I don't know if he's a bears fan, but I feel like I'm just pulling up with a bears fan, and somebody who's like

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Andy Miller III: having a Polish sausage and and enjoy like I just, I just love it. But yet. But yeah, you can hear that. And part of his work has been across these 40 50 years of putting together all of these resources that come from a variety of traditions. And and he's put together this database. Right? That's just. Is this a part of his? What with this you said earlier, is magnum opus.

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Ben Shaw: Yes, so is is magnum opus is going to be 4 volumes when it's all done. The 1st volume has recently come out in January of this year, 2,024, and it's just on the historical method and evidence. And it's only 1,000 pages. So just a couple, you know.

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Ben Shaw: no big deal.

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Andy Miller III: 1,000.

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Ben Shaw: That's it right there.

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Andy Miller III: Oh, I see it. There you go. Okay.

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Ben Shaw: It's a big one. Volume 2 is coming out. It's just on alternative theories that's coming out in less than a month in September it'll be out.

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Ben Shaw: and that's a little bit shorter. It's 900 pages. So you know, on altern, all on alternative theories. Volume 3 is going to be a scholarly spectrum of views, and that's going to be more like an index of where different scholars have commented on these different topics from the facts to alternative theories. And then Volume 4 will be practical, pastoral and worldview issues. And so I know he's working on that one now.

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Ben Shaw: So that's that's the 4 volume set.

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Andy Miller III: So they get to alternative theories. And I want to get back to your book in a second. But maybe some people, this is the 1st time they've heard about minimal facts. They've heard about Habermas or or these ideas, and like trying to set that as a foundation for what we're doing. But when we say, alternative theories, is people taking these facts, these facts, and trying to come up with a way to explain their reality, and so help like tell like what? Ultimately like, we're going back

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Andy Miller III: to 1st Corinthians 15. And saying that God raised Jesus from the dead, that that's the best explanation of these facts, but others come in, and then they they find other, sometimes naturalistic ways to define, to take these facts and explain them. So what are some of those alternative theories that people have developed. What are the kind of main ones.

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Ben Shaw: Yeah. Yeah. So

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Ben Shaw: just use just to pick a common one that people may all be familiar with. How do you know the disciples didn't steal the body that can account for you know what what we're seeing there, right? Can't that account for it? Well.

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Ben Shaw: no, it can't. Actually, when you start looking at it, it may be able to account for something like the empty tomb. It assumes an empty tomb. Right? If you're saying the disciples stole the body. By the way, that's what the Jewish leadership said. So they didn't deny the tomb was empty. They were just giving a different cause for its being empty. But if we say the disciples stole the body.

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Ben Shaw: okay?

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Ben Shaw: Well, that creates some problems, because that only again, that only accounts for why the body's missing. It doesn't actually account for the group appearances that we're seeing, because in that that information, in 1st Corinthians 15, there's 3 group appearances and 3 individual appearances. So it doesn't account for those.

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Ben Shaw: It doesn't account for the appearance to Paul, because Paul probably thought the disciples stole the body too. So it doesn't account for his conversion. It doesn't account for him changing his radically changing his views. He's probably thinking right along that they stole the body, especially if that's what the High priests were saying. It doesn't account for James's conversion either, and nor does it account for the disciples

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Ben Shaw: transformation and their willingness to suffer and die. There's some good sayings martyrs make poor myth makers or liars make poor liars make poor martyrs is another one. Yeah, yeah, so and and all we've done right there, we didn't go beyond really the minimal facts to explain those things. We just highlighted from the minimal facts. That's why I like them. It's a good foundation. It's a strong foundation. Obviously.

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Ben Shaw: you can unpack that at a black belt level at 1,054 pages, or you can do the case for the Resurrection, which I read as an undergrad. Barely knowing, Paul wrote half the New Testament, and I was able to follow and track along with that.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, it's helpful. Just just keep pointing back to those facts, because we have to figure out a way to okay, sure that that could the disciples stole the body, or there might be something like a they were just having a vision or a hallucination again, like there, there are ways. There's paths just pointing back to those facts like, would would they die for a hallucination, would they? So that's helpful. Okay, I need Pop. I I shouldn't stop talking about resurrection, because I'm sure we're gonna.

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Ben Shaw: Oh, I did my dissertation on the resurrection I love. It's a great topic.

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Andy Miller III: What what was your take, and what did you do differently in your dissertation, like.

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Ben Shaw: That's such a good question, because you empathize with the difficulty of working with Habermass, who studied it for 50 years, coming out with about 4,000 pages on the Resurrection.

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Ben Shaw: What am I gonna do? That's anything. Yeah.

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Andy Miller III: Play.

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Ben Shaw: That's gonna be, you know, that's gonna yeah.

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Ben Shaw: Make him go. Wow! You know.

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Andy Miller III: That's right.

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Ben Shaw: Not much, is the short answer. No, so what I did was I tried to address so because the challenges and this is skeptics recognize to the challenge that the minimal facts has provided for alternative theories one common response to say today is like.

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Ben Shaw: Well, I don't know what happened. But I can tell you what didn't happen. And that's resurrection. And so it's like, Okay, well, that doesn't seem right. What's going on here. And so I I addressed 3 roadblocks to resurrection research. Why would people not want to study it? And the 1st one is how do we know anything about the past, because we're all we're all biased. And that's that post modern question that I had working itself out. We can know the past, even if we're biased and we give.

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Andy Miller III: Sure she.

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Ben Shaw: Some examples in there people convert from one view to another all the time in all sorts of different areas, so evidence can change our views, evidence can impose itself on us so long as we follow after it.

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Ben Shaw: The second topic was, well, then, if we can, how do we know the past, and then I use the minimal facts as one method. I also talk about the historical criteria which is a chapter in the book, too, because we all use historical criteria every day.

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Andy Miller III: Right, right.

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Ben Shaw: Without using it. And the the criteria I'm referring to here authenticity or historicity. And so I just unpack those a little bit, and we'll probably talk about that in the book section. And then the 3rd one is on. Can a historian recognize a miracle? And I think that they can a lot say they can't, because they'll say, Well, if you believe in a miracle, that's just faith. Well, I don't. I don't know how faith is an epistemology. There.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure.

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Ben Shaw: And

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Ben Shaw: like if I were to use that sort of language with my wife. Hey, Ben, are you faithful to your wife like? Oh, I just believe her, because I've like no like being faithful to my wife is me. It involves a lot more than just like this mental assent to her. It involves me knowing her and then being faithful to that knowledge and acting accordingly. So

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Ben Shaw: it's it's not just faith. I could well that we talked about the Jewish scholars. Pintus lapid thought the resurrection happened, but he remained Jewish. So you can acknowledge the fact of an event while not being faithful to it.

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Ben Shaw: A lot of people know, you know, who the King was during the French Revolution. They weren't faithful to him.

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Andy Miller III: Sure.

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Ben Shaw: So that's an example there, or they'll say, Well, you're not doing history anymore. You're doing theology.

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Ben Shaw: But historian historians cross discipline all the time. If they write on the Great Depression, they're doing economics. If they write about the French Revolution, they're doing politics and military like. Are you telling me they can't talk about those things that doesn't seem to make any sense. So we do it.

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Ben Shaw: And again, you know, we all have the same access to the past. So it's not. It's not as though when I become a believer, I have this special access. I've just committed myself. That's.

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Andy Miller III: Right.

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Ben Shaw: The difference.

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Andy Miller III: This is helpful. I mean it. Basically, there's no basic to it. But it's assessing what is real like, how can we know? Can we know anything, and if if we exist in a world where God has revealed himself, then we have a kind of foundation for us to understand that we can, we can say this

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Andy Miller III: happened. This was this was a real, so it seems like, that's I. I'm interested in that approach. I'm really glad you did that.

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Ben Shaw: That was very encouraging for me, because I said, when I came to liberty I was struggling with some of those things, and I, just as you said, you know.

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Ben Shaw: Well, if you're a believer, you know, how do you know about this? How do you know about this? Now? The question gets kind of flipped. Well, if you know, the resurrection happened.

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Andy Miller III: Right.

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Ben Shaw: You have to account for that in your reality now. So it shouldn't just move us to continue to ask, well, what if? What if what if it should ask, what now?

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Andy Miller III: Yes, yes, and that's not.

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Ben Shaw: 1730 and 31 that Jesus is going to return as judge. He's going to hold us accountable. We know this because he's proved it through the resurrection. So now

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Ben Shaw: I'm going to be accountable for my actions. And so what am I going to do with those things and Ephesians? 2 10 is well created for good works, that I should be walking in them. God's prepared, specific ones for me, for you, for listeners, that each of us are talented and gifted to do, but we need to be faithful to do them. And then actually, at the end of 1st Corinthians, 1558,

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Ben Shaw: be steadfast and good works, for they're not in vain. So we know that our the things we do have eternal significance. That was very important for me, this post. Modernism typically leads towards nihilism and meaninglessness. And so this was just very powerful for me, even just. And then I would remember it and recall it like you were mentioning earlier.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, I've I've had Jay Warner Wallace on the podcast. A couple of times. I'm Gonna have him come on here soon again as well, he was the 1st person I heard say, like, How do you spell evangelism in our time? And he spelled apologetics. And but it's interesting. I like the the emphasis you have is saying, this is also discipleship that.

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Ben Shaw: Yeah.

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Andy Miller III: Was your experience as well that okay, discipleship isn't just the things we do in a small group. But it's us coming to a firmer understanding of the faith, once for all delivered to the saints.

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Ben Shaw: Yeah, yeah.

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Andy Miller III: Tell us more about that like.

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Ben Shaw: Let me let me let me just do. Yeah, let me put to you this way. This is a question I've I've asked a lot lately is knowing that Paul wrote 1st Corinthians 15. An apologetic question or discipleship question.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah. Yes. The answer is, yes, yeah.

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Ben Shaw: Not that.

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Andy Miller III: Either or right? Yeah.

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Ben Shaw: That's right. Cause you have to have you can't. You don't have zeal without knowledge, and oftentimes people think apologetics is just knowledge, but knowledge alone puffs up. We don't. We're not called to just be these mental robots, but it's a holistic aspect to it.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, yes.

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Ben Shaw: Back to my wife. For a second I married a girl from the South. I learned about sec. Football. She asked me who my favorite college football team was, I was like Miami. I'm from my mom went there, and she laughed. She's like not even the sec. I said, who's your favorite college football team. So she's auburn.

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Andy Miller III: Okay.

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Ben Shaw: The founder of Core. He's Alabama. His dad played for Bear Bryant, so.

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Andy Miller III: Oh, wow! Okay.

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Ben Shaw: Yeah, some tension there, but

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Ben Shaw: if I have love for her, and I want to be faithful to her, and I buy her in Alabama, Jersey.

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Ben Shaw: She's gonna kick me in the head hard.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.

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Ben Shaw: Hard right, because that's zeal without knowledge, so that but being faithful to her involves me knowing things about her and knowing what's pleasing to her auburn Jersey. So you know how much more now when it comes to the things of God. And so again, if we're going to give a reason for the hope that we have. We have to understand and know that hope. So that's part of the discipleship. And then that equates to apologetics, and that equates to evangelism, and that equates to our daily lives too.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, I love that you. You talk about the the South even. You know I was

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Andy Miller III: 8 19th year now in the South. Most of my adulthood has been in the South, and well, by, when I went to Florida.

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Andy Miller III: I I realize people would say, if you want to go south, go north right? Miami doesn't count right.

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Ben Shaw: That was so.

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Andy Miller III: Really a case. So.

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Ben Shaw: Orlando different.

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Andy Miller III: That's right. It's it is a totally totally different social environment.

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Ben Shaw: Hi.

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Andy Miller III: When you're talking back to this idea of like this being like the form of discipleship, it it's it's interesting that when you you go to even just acknowledge the reality of this hymn. Some people are quick to to abandon it, because they think, Oh, this is at! This is for the scholars. This is an academic discussion, but really it's not this. This isn't just something for the preacher to have to give you some bread crumbs.

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Andy Miller III: This is. This is a part of understanding how God has revealed Himself in space and time, how how we understand basic facts of the universe. Again, tell us, well, why do people? Why do people need to study this, Ben? Why do they need to just let themselves go a little deeper.

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Ben Shaw: Yeah, I think that's such a good point. Paul doesn't start his letters or put a little segue in there. Hey? This is just for the scribes, and you know the lawyers. He doesn't have any comments like that. It's for the church, and so we're all a part of the church, and so that's 1 of the things about core apologetics that I'm really passionate about is because I felt like I had to go get a Master's Degree and a Phd. Get discipled, and I'm like, Oh, it! It need not be this way we talked about the some people are called to the Black Belt 1,000 pages right.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, yes.

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Ben Shaw: Not everybody's called that. We need godly businessmen. We need godly lawyers. We need godly people in medicine. We need everywhere in it, like in every capacity, and that's what we're called to do. That's why he's equipped us all differently. I never would have thought I would have been in Academia if you saw my report cards you never would have thought I would have been there. But he's got reasons and good works for us each to do with the talents he's given us, but we want to do them grounded

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Ben Shaw: in God's kingdom, and being faithful to him as Lord so, but in order to do that. We got to know about his kingdom, and we got to know what's pleasing to him, and then continually remind ourselves of those things, because trials.

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Ben Shaw: tribulations and temptations are going to come, and if we're not prepared beforehand.

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Ben Shaw: it's a lot harder to stand. If you don't understand.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, absolutely. And this is, this is foundational for standing in this time. Okay, I didn't. I haven't talked enough about the book. I'm sorry folks, you have to go out and get it trustworthy, but I want to hit. I like this chapter on undesigned coincidences that this being oh, some I I love for you, just to highlight that a little bit. There, all of this is like, and and I would love to follow up to like on some of the things that you said, too, about the the use of secretaries being its own

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Andy Miller III: a form of helping us understand its reliability. But I I'm going to back. I want to talk about undesigned coincidences. Tell us why that significant in these unintentional things help us create a foundation for the trustworthiness of Scripture.

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Ben Shaw: Yeah, yeah, so, and and that design coincidence. It's pretty interesting, because they've kind of come back. They were studied a lot years ago, and then they've kind of fell by the wayside for some reason. But Lydia Mcgrew helped bring them back

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Ben Shaw: to our attention, and an undesigned coincidence is like 2 puzzle pieces that were made by 2 different people of the taken up of taking a picture of the same event or the same scenery, and they fit together

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Ben Shaw: perfectly to to ill illuminate or bring the picture together in a bigger way. And so an example may be helpful here

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Ben Shaw: to to show what we mean, because when 2 puzzle pieces come together

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Ben Shaw: and there's no evidence like there's no reason to think that these 2 authors corroborated. They're coming together because they're both taking a picture of the same thing. They're not coming together because they corroborated together. And so an example of this is in John 6

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Ben Shaw: in. One to 7.

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Ben Shaw: Jesus is. This is the feeding of the 5,000. So it's right before that. And he asks Philip, where should we go to get food? But you're like, why is he asking Philip? Philip's not, you know, a main character typically in in the Gospels? Why is it? Why, why, Philip?

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Ben Shaw: And

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Ben Shaw: and John one.

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Ben Shaw: You learn that Philip is from Bitsida. So you're like, okay.

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Ben Shaw: what's that got to do with anything. Well, if you go to the Gospel of Luke in chapter 9, he says that this feeding of the 5,000 takes place in Bethsaida, so Jesus is asking the hometown person, where do we go to get food around here? Because you're gonna know. So if you come to, if if you were to go to

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Ben Shaw: You know an area in Fort Lauderdale like Ben. Where's a good place to get food down here? I'm not down there now, but I'll I'll tell you. I know the different places you're gonna ask me. I'm not. You know. We're not gonna ask.

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Andy Miller III: Constraint.

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Ben Shaw: Because they're not going to know. But you asked the hometown person. And so that's what we see here. It's

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Ben Shaw: the the idea that John and Luke

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Ben Shaw: came together and conspired to make this this little puzzle piece come together. It just sounds ridiculous. Now you might go. Well, that's just a minor puzzle piece, though. Well, yeah, that's true. But if we have a number of these which we do.

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Ben Shaw: then that adds a cumulative case, it also shows a habit or a consistency of faithful representation to the past, which is also another indicator of trustworthiness.

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Ben Shaw: What's also interesting is we also have accounts from inside the New Testament and outside the New Testament, that that highlight one another. So Tacitus and

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Ben Shaw: Luke also come together to illustrate why there may be multiple pro councils. And I think it's Ephesus.

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Ben Shaw: when everyone knows there's only one pro council. Why is he saying multiple here? But this happened to be a time when that pro council was just executed. So there's multiple people in charge right now.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, I.

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Ben Shaw: Yeah, those are. Those are the undesigned coincidences. They're a great puzz. They're a great another angle of

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Ben Shaw: New Testament reliability that I don't. We shouldn't be ignoring. They're very helpful. They help give greater depth and appreciation to Scripture. So.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, I think that's really helpful, because one thing that can happen is like acknowledging within Scripture. But I I loved your chapters, too, on non Christian non canonical sources, as well of how they can verify and help us see that there is something reliable in what we have the back, though, to this idea of having these undesigned coincidences like you, in that case, the John 6 case.

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Andy Miller III: Well, if if it was one picture, somebody's taken one picture of it that you might say, Okay, well, Thomas or Phillip, Philip, because he was from there.

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Andy Miller III: did this. But you're finding that data somewhere else and bringing it in. I think that's helpful, like, I this I just might not fit into it. But just I've been thinking a lot about Jude lately, and I thinking about Jude, Judas being the brother of Jesus. And there's a Co. And this is the same thing with James like. It's just interesting to me that of the common language. And actually, I've seen an academic article on this just recently.

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Andy Miller III: common language that they have. That's similar to Jesus's like Whoa to you like these various other phrase, and and even finding similar sources, and in in that, that from the region of Nazareth, what they might have emphasized. So I I think these are undesigned. Would would that would that fit in with what you're saying, Ben.

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Ben Shaw: I don't have a pro. I don't have a problem with that. I think that's another good argument. I'm like one of those guys that's the jujitsu and me. I want as many moves as I can have, because I never know what the situation is going to call for.

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Ben Shaw: I know there's a number of different types of of those undesigned coincidences, and there's different levels to them, too, so that that may fall well within them. Lydia Mcgruce talked about them. Peter!

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Ben Shaw: I'm going to forget his last name. There's a lot of Peters out there. But oh, my goodness.

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Ben Shaw: no, not crazy. I think he's European scholar, but anyway, he talks about them in his book. Oh, it drives me crazy. I can't think about. But the books from the 18 hundreds. Have talked about them, too. Of course those scholars are now escape. Once you lose one, you start losing them all.

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Andy Miller III: Sure I got you no problem. Somebody talks about the the circle of truth. I've heard that argument, too, in the past now, and now I'm drawing a blank. Okay.

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Andy Miller III: that's a sign to move on to something else. So, Ben, I'm curious like in in your own experience. What is the what's the reliability question. That's the hardest for you like, what's been the the thing that for you to work through? That's like man. I'm i i'm working through this, or I've just or writing this book

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Andy Miller III: kind of help me get to a better answer, and and I like I cause I think it's helpful, too, to acknowledge, like somebody who's in an apologetics ministry, you know that we we have to. There are questions that are are difficult, hard ones, but it's worth fighting through. And maybe I I use this. I give you this question because

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Andy Miller III: I think it'd be helpful for people to realize you're working through some of these difficult historical questions, too.

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Ben Shaw: Yeah. Yeah. So I think for me,

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Ben Shaw: one of the things that was helpful for me

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Ben Shaw: is because I use the term trustworthy or reliability in the book

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Ben Shaw: very broadly. I think really there that and it was intentional. It was intentionally done that way, and I think now I can articulate and be more explicit as to why that is prior to when I was starting. Because reliability, it comes at different levels. We just talked about it at undesigned coincidences. That's 1 level. But textual criticism that's an entirely different level. But you need both of those together. So saying, it's reliable textual critic

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Ben Shaw: perspective is totally different from saying it's reliable from undesigned coincidences perspective.

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Ben Shaw: But you bring those together, and that adds to this big case of trustworthiness. You know it's not one act that makes someone trustworthy. It's multiple acts. Same thing here. To use a to use a hockey analogy, you know. Oh, Ben, you played college hockey. You must be good. Oh, yeah, yeah, I guess so. Well, yeah, you should go play with Tampa Bay Lightning sometime. Well, wait, wait, wait.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.

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Ben Shaw: Totally different word here. Okay, that's a not good on the same level. So so you're not good at hockey. Well, no, I well, I still am good, but not like that good. And so there's levels. So I'm trying to unpack those different levels. That's helpful for

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Ben Shaw: someone who has questions that's helpful for a disciple like who had questions like I did where I was. Just yeah, I wanted to know more about Scripture, but I also try to to keep it brief, because

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Ben Shaw: if I show you every move like that's just gonna overwhelm you, if that makes sense. And so.

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Andy Miller III: Caspian.

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Ben Shaw: Introduction to the goal was that here's the introduction to all these different

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Ben Shaw: arguments. These are key questions you've probably asked.

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Ben Shaw: Here's the takeaway, trying to be very concise, like 10 pages a chapter that's part of the goals, not a thousand pages. There's times and places for that. I've got that Craig Blomberg has a really great but big reliability book as well. But what's something for someone to get to get in and start understanding? What are the different levels, because each of the chapters is a dissertation is a few.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, no. No.

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Ben Shaw: In and of itself. Right? So how do we sentence.

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Andy Miller III: Bizarre.

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Ben Shaw: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm just trying to, how do I synthesize this just to you know the key takeaways? And then if God calls some people to academia, to seminary, to school. Now you can start to like, oh, I didn't know this was out here. I'm gonna start studying these things. So

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Ben Shaw: that's 1 element where I felt better afterwards. There's other positives about the short book that I think are important for people who aren't planning to go to seminary.

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Ben Shaw: For example, business owners speak to 10 times more non believers and not Christians than pastors do. So we want them to be equipped with some of these things.

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Ben Shaw: But and then some of the questions, yeah, that I think I say that in the 13th chapter on the Minimal Facts chapter, because, you know, hey, look, what if I'm wrong on all these things? Well, we still have the minimal facts. I don't talk about objections like contradictions or alleged contradictions and things like that. I refer to books.

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Ben Shaw: On those subjects. And you know there's on some texts there's different interpretations you could take on different subjects, and some are easier than others. Some are harder than others. So I cite some books you could take a look at for that, and I I still use those. That's why that's why I cite them.

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Ben Shaw: 2 2 totally different approaches, but

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Ben Shaw: they can be complementary. But

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Ben Shaw: Norm Geissler, and Dr. Howe have a book, the big book of Bible difficulties. Yeah, it's a big book. It's a big book, but I've I've used that a number of times just going. Oh, I wonder what these guys do with this? Or how do they so.

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Andy Miller III: One in your own discipleship journey that is prominent, one challenge that that you work through that.

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Ben Shaw: Mine. Mine was more in the postmodernism side.

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Andy Miller III: I just understand.

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Ben Shaw: Yeah, yeah, I think that was the bigger the bigger hurdle for me. And then, as I came across philosophers saying, Well, you know truth doesn't exist. If if God doesn't exist, there's no truth. And I'm like, Well.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, is that true?

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Ben Shaw: Undeniable. So

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Ben Shaw: yeah, yeah, so that's that's for me. There's

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Ben Shaw: the New Testament ones, you know. There's issues I may wrestle with. But dude. I'm pretty good on Deuteronomy. 2929. There's some things that belong to the Lord, and he's going to know him. And yeah, yeah, some things he's revealed for us. As as long as I've got the core.

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Ben Shaw: That's what I need. That's what I can rest in. We'll get the other answers solved later on. So.

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Andy Miller III: Well, Ben, I've I, I think I had over 200 guests. Now on my podcast. And generally, I ask this question, it's the my podcast. Is called more to story, and I ask people, Well, is there more to story of Ben? But you, of all my guests probably are the one who's already given us more like, I want people to tell about their hobbies, and sometimes people really struggle. I think I've had one or 2. Say

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Andy Miller III: no, I'm just. I keep on writing these type of books. That's what I do. But we have judici jujitsu we have. I don't know if I'm even saying it right there we have that.

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Andy Miller III: and then you have hockey, but it maybe you could tell us a little bit more about that, or something else about your life. I'd love to hear more, I mean, I asked this question in part because the emphasis in our school is like in the kind of Wesleyan sotiological perspective. We want to just move beyond

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Andy Miller III: just forgiveness, like it's about the transformation and a renewal in the image of God. And we see that as a process of sanctification in our life, the work the spirit wants to do. So. I always think that there's more to the story than just forgiveness, but that's on the other side of it. I I like to get something else from a little bit more personal for my guest. So it. What what could we possibly get, Ben more than.

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Ben Shaw: Yeah.

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Andy Miller III: On you.

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Ben Shaw: Yeah. Oh, okay, I got a I got a dumb one so I I am curious by nature, too. I think that's part of my my background. But

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Ben Shaw: so yeah, we did talk about jujitsu. We talked about hockey. I still like both of those. I like being outside of the world of Academia, too, because there's a academics. We tend to get focused on

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Ben Shaw: navel gazing and talking about things that people don't talk about. We forget about concrete reality. Jujitsu has helped helped keep me in concrete reality at a full time day job as an insurance adjuster that helped get keep me grounded.

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Andy Miller III: Okay.

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Ben Shaw: But now something totally unrelated to both of those when Covid happened. You know, everyone was at home a lot more often, and so we have kids, we're trying to think, okay, what are some things we could watch. And

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Ben Shaw: we started watching card tricks. And so I started picking up and trying to learn card tricks and.

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Andy Miller III: Oh, interesting!

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Ben Shaw: Like that. So I still get really nervous doing them. But I enjoy doing it. It's a lot of fun. It's really silly, but it's a it's a good thing that that I kind of picked up. If I can incorporate that now into

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Ben Shaw: some some talks that'd be a good angle.

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Andy Miller III: Oh, yeah, sure.

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Ben Shaw: Haven't had time to think about that or add it yet. But tell me, your kids.

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Andy Miller III: How are you?

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Ben Shaw: Yeah, we've got 3. We got 3 kids 7, 5 and 4.

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Andy Miller III: Okay.

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Ben Shaw: So yeah, one of them

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Ben Shaw: one of them. Well, we're trying to get both of them in hockey in this coming up year, so we'll see if they like it. Hockey is. I didn't play hockey as a kid, so it's it's interesting for me trying to teach them. So they're doing that. They

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Ben Shaw: they learned swimming this this summer. So that was good. That was fun. I'm from Florida. Every everyone learns to swim and I was like, right, I was telling my wife like, Hey, we're getting swimming lessons. We gotta

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Ben Shaw: just something something you have to do. So we got. We got to teach them that this year that was exciting. I'm a 3rd generation only child.

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Ben Shaw: So having 3 kids is like chaos.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure.

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Ben Shaw: And so one of the best things. I'll say this now. So everyone especially the pastors and

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Ben Shaw: our church, did a child rearing class, and we went to it all 3 times with when we had all 3 kids. It was the best thing for us, because it put my wife and I on the same page for understanding how to discipline and instruct our kids with love.

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Ben Shaw: And it was just one of the best things that we've done.

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Andy Miller III: Well, Ben, thanks for taking time. Thanks for this book, and for the work you're doing at core. I know you do some adjunct teaching around, too. I'm I'm glad that I got a chance to meet you here, but also thankful for the work you're doing for the Church, for the discipleship for helping people become stronger in their faith. So thanks for coming again to the podcast today.

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Ben Shaw: Yeah, thanks so much for having me. And if I could just add, with the book, we've got a class coming up that I'll be teaching live online through core apologetics, and that'll be in September. So we're going to spend 6 weeks. I'll be teaching it live online. We'll be going through about 2 chapters a week. It's 1 h on Sunday nights.

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Ben Shaw: And then you go to our website. Core apologetics.com for more information on that. But it's an hour, and then we'll have about 15 min of QA. After each class, and it's good if you miss it. We record it. So I just want to. Let you guys know that we'll be doing. I think it's neat. I don't know too many authors we get to go. Take a class with.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure.

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Ben Shaw: Things different and unique. So those.

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Andy Miller III: What's the website where they can find out about that?

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Ben Shaw: Core apologetics.com, and I should say CORE. apologetics.com.

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Andy Miller III: Thanks so much, Ben. Appreciate your time.