Lessons from the Sheepdog with Burt Palmer

Burt Palmer identifies himself in a pastoral role as being the sheepdog who listens carefully to the voice of the good shepherd. He is a leader in the emerging Global Methodist Church and someone whose insight will be helpful to your own ministry.

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Today’s episode is brought to you by Wesley Biblical Seminary. Interested in going deeper in your faith? Check out our certificate programs, B.A., M.A.s, M.Div., and D.Min degrees. You will study with world-class faculty and the most racially diverse student body in the country. www.wbs.edu

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Transcript:

Welcome to the more to the story. Podcast I'm so glad that you have come along for this episode, and we are going to speak to the sheepdog. That's right. We're going to talk to the sheepdog. You don't might not know what I'm saying. But we're gonna we're going to meet the sheepdog. And you might just learn today, too, that you also are a sheepdog. We'll see, we'll see.

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Andy Miller III: This podcast. Comes to you from Wesley Biblical Seminary, where we are developing trusted leaders for faithful churches. We do that through a host of programs for bachelor's master's doctoral degrees, lay initiatives, certificate programs. We have just in the last year and a half been working with the global Methodist church. And we have more than 400 global Methodist church pastors who are studying with us, which has given us a great opportunity to be a part of this exciting new movement within a church.

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Andy Miller III: But we serve churches and denominations across the Pan Wesleyan movement, and we're thankful for all of those traditions. And this unique moment within, not just Wesleyanism, but within the kingdom of God. And so we encourage you to think about joining.

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Andy Miller III: participating in what the seminaries have to offer, particularly what we have here at Wesley Biblical Seminary just this January. We're going to offer a new Wesley Institute now. We normally have a 9 month. Wesley Institute that walks through every book of the Bible.

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Andy Miller III: It's called the Bible track. Then we have the theology track where we talk through various areas of theological study. But in January we're going to offer a Mini Wesley Institute, which is a 6 week course on the doctrine of Holiness, just Scriptural holiness, which is a part of the mission statement of the global Methodist Church to spread scriptural holiness across the globe. So we'd love for you to check that out@wbs.com.

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Andy Miller III: Also, I'd love for folks to sign up for my email list at andymillertheird.com. That's andymilleri.com. And if you sign up for that list I'll send you a free tool called 5 Steps to deeper teaching and preaching. You can also find resources for Sunday school classes and small groups at my website there. I'd love for you to check that out. There's a study of the book of Jude, one on heaven and hell, another one coming out on holiness. So we'd love for you to find all that at andymillertheird.com.

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Andy Miller III: All right. I am so glad to welcome into the podcast my friend, Reverend Dr. Bert Palmer, who is a senior pastor at Kingwood Methodist Church, which is northeast of Houston. Bert and I got to know each other in Costa Rica. We served on the same committee. Bert, it's great to have you on the podcast.

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Burt Palmer: Andy. It's great to be here. It's a joy to meet you in Costa Rica, and look forward to this conversation.

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Andy Miller III: Well, and I could always. It was a joy to meet you, too, and I sitting on committee, being new and not being somebody who didn't come from the Umc. So, not knowing, you know how some of these processes work, particularly with parliamentary procedures, I admire people who kind of know what's happening. I always felt like, Bert. You were like 3 steps, not just ahead of me, but 3 steps ahead of the room, and I say that as a compliment. It was so good to see somebody had experience there and had been working this system. You also serve as a Board of Ministry chair, for your conference. Is that correct?

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Burt Palmer: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I was the organizer for what was the Eastern Texas is now the Trendy Conference. So set that up. And then when we transitioned over and elected a pro tem. Then I took the role of Board of Ministry chair. That's where I've got some experience. So that's where I felt a good place to serve was.

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Andy Miller III: Interesting. So as the organizer tell us about that process a little bit. And now now I know it's a bit rear view mirror, and we're mainly focused on the.

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Burt Palmer: Windshield.

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Andy Miller III: But I just I didn't. I didn't know that about you till just this very moment. So tell me about that, and how you think about that period now.

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Burt Palmer: So what the Tlc. Did was they had a 1 sheet form that talked about identifying people who would be organizers, someone who would pull together the right people in the conversation. Kind of good to great concept. Right? Get the right people in the room that can make the right decisions. And so we got together and we initially called it the Texas Conference Advisory Team. At that time we thought we'd only be one conference

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Burt Palmer: a 1 State area, the previous bounds of our previous United Methodist Conference. And then, once, as it's sort of a what I call connectional sanctification process, Keith and the Tlc. Got a hold of what we did. They took the T and they changed it from the Texas to the transitional.

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Burt Palmer: but the framework of that state in place. So we had the initial framework. We invited everybody the table, and we simply got together and said, How do we want to organize ourselves, and and that's what we did. It was a it was a. It was a beautiful, exciting, difficult season of ministry, where you're both looking for what you hope to create, and then also living through the season of what happens when all of those relationships become tension

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Burt Palmer: filled with tension, some of them become fractured. Some of them no longer exist. How to focus on the future, how to how to not let it

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Burt Palmer: creep into your ministry of negativity, or hurt. Probably the key phrase during all that was this great quote from Aj. Swobota, who said, You can ministry from? You can do ministry from your scars. You can't do ministry from your wounds.

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Andy Miller III: So.

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Burt Palmer: Having to carve out that time is okay. I have this experience in these.

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Burt Palmer: this church, that for my life you know that I'm 3rd generation, pastor I was so deeply in love with, but so so had such struggles with right. And so how do you not? How do you say things that could make clear differentiation between who you are and what you believe God's coming, calling you to be versus where you're leaving without being sort of a demonizing or derogatory, and I know I failed at that so many times.

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Burt Palmer: But I've tried to extend forgiveness. I've received forgiveness. So that's what we did. And we set that up. And it just grew in the Texas area it grew to become

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Burt Palmer: we actually was really cool. On in July of that year we actually pulled together folks from what is now the West Plains, the mid text, and now the Trinity Conference together at Christchurch in the woodlands, and we? Keith flew in. Lehi d. Gregory is there, and they led this conversation about. What does it need to look like? What does this expression of Methodism need to look like, how are things going to be set up? And then we started the informational flow of getting contact information? How do we contact across those conferences. So.

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Burt Palmer: having served previously in the Northwest Texas area in Amarillo, serving out the Texas area, it was easy to get connecting points and get people together so pretty much your tcat roles. A tcat organizer was. You're the ambassador you're the one trying to advocate pulled together. We hosted event here in my church. They kind of helped us get organized early on, but that's what it was, and God just grew it from there.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah. So when you're doing this, and as you're working this contest, that context, were you then also going to churches that were curious, like meeting with churches to see like. If, if this affiliation was something they needed to pursue.

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Burt Palmer: We could. You know the the unique thing about our geographic area is that I don't know if you've ever heard of this guy's name. He's he's he's a small figure in renewal sense of Methodism. His name is Rob Renfro.

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Andy Miller III: Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

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Burt Palmer: Yeah. So we had a little bit of the unfair advantage that with good news, with Lambreck, with having those stalwart pokes here chat template. You can go down the list right.

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Andy Miller III: Sure, sure.

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Burt Palmer: Our our bench was so deep of people who could articulate, but I others on the tcat we we just divided it up, so I think I went to 4 or 5 different churches. Different individuals were invited. They would go in. They'd make the presentation we put together the Powerpoint slides. We did all that kind of stuff. So yeah, we we were all over the place talking to folks about, what does it look like? What's it gonna look like. And that's how we actually built

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Burt Palmer: are

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Burt Palmer: our database of people for the structure that became so because you already had that strong Wca. Good news, renewal movement. We had a we already had an internal structure that we knew each other. We knew our tribe, if you would.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure.

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Burt Palmer: So some people would say, they feel like we're ahead of things. We just, we're just trying to make the most of to who much is given, much is expected. We. We simply had the organizational work already there. We already had the database list

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Burt Palmer: we already have that we didn't have to figure out who was in the tribe. We didn't have to figure out who has this calling to an orthodox Wesleyan Covenant keeping Methodist expression. We knew those folks. And so we we were able to just simply pick up that work and just move it forward. So that's probably why we are a little ahead of some other conferences on some things.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, that's really helpful. And as you're working through this, you're having. And everybody is in this moment where there is separation, disaffiliation, having to distinguish the right path and the way to go forward. And this is where I get to your email signature. So we were corresponding just last week, I thought, and you know we met each other. But then I saw the way you sign your emails, and you called yourself the Sheepdog.

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Andy Miller III: So. And you gave a little. You give a little clarity in that. So I imagine that that identity, this statement, this kind of claiming this connects to even this moment, as you're a part of this emerging movement is being a good sheepdog. So tell tell me about that, that name, and why that applies, and maybe even how it relates to this calling. At this particular point in the life of Methodism. Yeah.

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Burt Palmer: Yeah. One of the beautiful things in our previous tribe was that when you had the 2 year period, once you were ordained a Deacon you would then have a period where you'd have some kind of Residency group and in the North Texas Conference to their complement. What they really did well is, they got us in a room, and you had a Lpc. Who was also a United Methodist, and and in that moment

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Burt Palmer: He set in this gathering together, he set this ceramic figure of a sheep dog up on the little podium, the presentation, and he began the whole presentation, saying, if you will keep in mind, you're not the Shepherd. Jesus is the Good Shepherd. You're.

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Andy Miller III: Urgent.

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Burt Palmer: Sheepdog. And what he was explaining was that metaphorical image. For how do we understand whether it be now? And's idea of sort of the wounded healer which I like to actually call the walking wounded. That's not an original phrase. But how do we understand? We are a participant in the work of the Holy Spirit, and what God wants to do. We aren't the Savior. We're a conduit. And so the sheepdog has a responsibility to listen to the shepherd.

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Burt Palmer: But the sheepdog is part of what also is caring for the sheep. And so you have a distinctive kind of role. That kind of helped Thorpe, and shape and form my thinking around, how do we have a healthy understanding of who we are as as prophet, peace, priest, pastor! We're a catalyst right? So

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Burt Palmer: we have to listen in our own discipleship and growth in Christ, from the waters of our baptism. What is God calling on our life as a follower of Christ, and then God's called us the set apart. The representative ministry is this this sheepdog role. Sometimes it's corrective, sometimes it's protective.

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Burt Palmer: And so the way that helped nurture me during this season was I had to figure out and distinguish what is the appropriate boundary for me to articulate with clarity, sort of picking up the idea of freedman I needed to differentiate for my congregation or Brene Brown's idea of clarity is compassion. How to say, folks, this is how I understand my historic questions. This is what I understand. This is where I'm going.

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Burt Palmer: Now. I want to be a pastor, and I want to help you, and I'm going to explain to you why I believe what I do and why I see what I do. But I just need to go start this conversation. This is where I'm going to end up, because this is what I believe. And so for some of that means that there were some broken relationships, but but overall

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Burt Palmer: people didn't have to wonder where I stood. And so that's the important thing. But I was just a part of what God wanted to do, and I believe that in that season God used that in other people's lives, for ways that I prayed would bring the kingdom. Glory!

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Burt Palmer: But it was clear for this role. Hey? The sheepdog has a responsibility to listen, to protect jokingly at times, I've been told I tend to be pugnacious, and Cap temple calls me pug gracious! But to

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Burt Palmer: to nip and bark a little bit to warn. So I felt like what I was doing is for me. I was particularly who am I,

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Burt Palmer: and what things that I think were important for the historic faith in articulate that for people to give them a language and understanding, not telling them what to believe, but to do the theological work. To say this is why the Nicene creed is important. This is why we need to know the difference between the Aryans and the Athanasians. This is why the work of the Holy Spirit is important. This is really what Wesley meant in the Catholic spirit. Not just that. You can believe whatever you want, right, how to have some latitude on the pew without become latitudinarianism, you know so.

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Andy Miller III: Right, sure.

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Burt Palmer: Articulating all of that for the people is what sort of what I hope got in my heart, and I know I didn't do it perfectly. I know there were folks that felt I failed. But I feel like I was faithful as I could be in the season to what the Holy Spirit put on my heart. So that's what.

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Andy Miller III: I love it. That's really good, you know, it comes to idea like we end up thinking sometimes that love is unconditional acceptance, right? That it's just oh, we'll bring it. And there's a way that, like, you know, people have definitions of grace that tend in that direction. But if if love isn't like Aquinas's idea, willing the good of others, or as union with God in the

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Andy Miller III: like Augustine's framework like these are helpful ways for us to think about. Well, what's then the call

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Andy Miller III: of somebody who is a priest or a pastor, and the language pastor kind of puts us in the place where we think we're the ones with the shepherd's crook, right? But I like this differentiation between the sheep and being the shepherd itself. I mean, this is a part of what the the sheepdog

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Andy Miller III: loves the sheep, and it's it, but it's different from the sheep.

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Burt Palmer: That's so right. So, and the sheepdog has to listen to the shepherd.

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Andy Miller III: Yes.

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Burt Palmer: I think that I think that one of the things that I that I think is emerging, that I love about the Gmc. Is

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Burt Palmer: we have not substituted vocation for identity.

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Burt Palmer: and what I mean by that is this, so much in the season of ministry has been lost over the function of the work of God that we've forgotten the God of the work.

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Burt Palmer: And and so how do we make sure that we are grounded in our daily disciplines. I can't be a sheepdog if I'm not daily in the word, daily in the Scripture, daily, in devotional work. That's the way that I feel myself. That's how I am best able to hear what God wants of me. The imagery I use with my people all the time is the 1st vehicle ever had was a 1976 Gmc. Pickup with a 454, and had glass packs. It was a great truck.

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Burt Palmer: but, Andy, you may be too young for this. But I know some people will understand this.

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Burt Palmer: that that was actually a radio that was not digital. It had a dial. And when you'd hang out with your friends

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Burt Palmer: when you park the truck. And that's what we did in Wichita Falls, because there wasn't really a place to go, you'd hang out in the parking lot or something, and you but but sometimes in the evening the the radio station would fade, and so you'd have to go in, and you'd have to adjust the dial a little bit. You'd have to sort of tune it in, you know.

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Andy Miller III: Sure.

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Burt Palmer: Or sometimes you have to move the truck entirely because the antenna was here. How do we need to move our lives? How do we need to adjust, to receive and be connected to God who we are. Right. So what's the dial of your heart? What's your posture? And if you don't have that individual posture through band groups and individual accountability in your own walk with Christ.

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Burt Palmer: then it really has a negative impact on being well, negative or positive. There is a correlation between your individual discipleship in your role and function as one who's been in representative ministry, set apart and called to be pastor, priest, prophet, sheepdog.

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Andy Miller III: Amen. That's good, and you think of to the the distinctions within the sometimes called the Protestant marks of the Church. So you have

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Andy Miller III: proclaiming the word preaching the word, the pure word of God, duly administering sacraments, but also discipline.

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Andy Miller III: the discipline of the church, the right ordering, and these are key distinctions that, of course, are still a part of the doctrines of discipline of the global Methodist church, and these are often pieces that when you move from deacon to elder. It's not just a distinction also comes with an extra order, so to speak, about ordering, and I think that fits into what a sheepdog is called to do.

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Burt Palmer: But so often what we think of what we, I think we have to be cautious that when we think about ordering, we back up and think I'm responsible for ordering as if ministry is like a Lego set, and I control it right.

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Andy Miller III: Wow, yeah.

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Burt Palmer: What if? What if? And this is what I believe this is the core of my belief. Why, I love the Gmc. It has renewed my understanding that on Tuesday mornings and Friday mornings I'm with a group of men talking about my walk with Christ. Now. There are some pastoral relationships there right, but but

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Burt Palmer: it's it's somewhat strips away. They don't look at me in those moments as as pastor. They'll look at me as Bert, right? So I'm saying, Okay, how do I understand this? How do I understand this call of God in my heart? How do we wrestle through this? How do you reconcile this, and I'm talking to them at the waters of my baptism, my identity in Christ as a believer. What's the thing we want to create in the global Methodist church. We want to create this this movement that's about

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Burt Palmer: pastors learning to introduce in an individual way people to Christ. How many pastors have walked with someone to bring them to faith in Christ.

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Burt Palmer: Yeah, that'd be that'd be a scary statistic right?

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure.

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Burt Palmer: If we want to be that renewal movement that spreads scriptural holiness.

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Burt Palmer: we can't do it if we don't embody it. If we don't let it be seeped into our bones. So this season has just enlivened to me the reminder of that. And so I have much deeper friendships. Of course that's another thing, right? So don't have friends in church.

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Andy Miller III: Right, sure, sure.

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Burt Palmer: Professional vocational distance. It's I understand it's important to have an understanding of distance, boundaries, etc.

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Burt Palmer: But to, if if you take that to the extreme. Then you're never vulnerable with anybody. I'm never letting anybody call out sin in my life.

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Andy Miller III: Yes.

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Burt Palmer: Never letting anybody. I'm never confessing my sin before anybody. So in those groups of guys I can come before them and say, Hey, you know, I just guys, I just need to let you know. I screwed up this week. And I said this, and I didn't mean or I hurt this person, and I didn't, or

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Burt Palmer: priesthood of all believers. Right well, where does he become exempt from that.

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Andy Miller III: Yes.

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Burt Palmer: I. That's what I love is. It's pushing and pulling and inviting, and and just pulling us into the heart of God. That says this is about a community walks together.

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Burt Palmer: And so, and I also love at camp because I'll tell the kids sheepdog and creates this playful kind of thing that, you know. I'll be at camp or at Vbs, and you'll hear across the Commons or across the campus sheepdog. You know.

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Andy Miller III: Said it.

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Burt Palmer: Playful imagery.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure. Sure.

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Burt Palmer: And of course, what do they do? Just like you? They'll say, why do you call yourself the sheepdog? And it gives me this opening to talk about. Well, my relationship with Christ means this, and then I felt the call of God to do this, and I wonder what God's calling on your heart to carry.

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Andy Miller III: Yes.

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Burt Palmer: So.

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Andy Miller III: That's good. Now, I love the way you're describing the accountability that's needed, and I, too, in a band. And I kind of know, you know Tony Kampala says that you know

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Andy Miller III: I've dangerously quoting him here, but you know it's Friday, but Sunday is coming for me. I always think Thursday's coming, because that's at 7 Am. When I meet with my band, and I just know that if there's something in my life that needs to be confessed a sin in my life. Thursday's coming, and so I need to be ready for it. And in those moments like for you doing this in the context of your local church. There's a way that the sheepdog for a period becomes a sheep.

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Andy Miller III: Right? Is that would you? Is that the case? I mean, would you think of that like.

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Burt Palmer: I think I always I will always have because of answering the call to representative ministry. I'll always beat the sheep dog. I sit with the sheep.

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Burt Palmer: I still have that role, but I sit, and we both say, What are we hearing

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Burt Palmer: so that she can say, Hey, sheet! Go!

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Burt Palmer: You're hearing that we're going this way. Look, we're here. We're supposed to go this way.

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Burt Palmer: And then we why are we hearing that? Because there could be in that moment a prophetic nature of what? Well, I know. That's what it appears. But here's what I'm thinking. Here's what's now what's happening is this beautiful moment where I peel back the layer of the vulnerability as a leader.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure.

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Burt Palmer: And so what do we need in our what do we need in our men? What we need in our men? To leave the church is to peel back the layers of trying to present a facade, to peel back the layers, to learn how to say. This is what I think is going on with my heart. This is where I feel the Holy Spirit. Where is it grounded? How does it meet with Scripture? How are you accountable to those around you. And so I've got these beautiful moments to say.

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Burt Palmer: guys, this is this is where I am. This is what I'm feeling the tug of God. This is what I'm doing, what I'm doing. And now I've got a group of men, and I'm magnifying this this lens. And not only am I magnifying the lens. I'm getting wiser.

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Burt Palmer: because now I've got 14 guys on a Tuesday morning there's 28 sets of eyes, 20 sets of ears.

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Burt Palmer: and the way I can lead is so much clearer in being tuned into the Holy Spirit, because now I've got a room full of men who are hearing, who are saying, Well, why this? Why that? Have you thought about this? I can't tell you how many times someone hears that, and they say something that speaks truth.

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Burt Palmer: and for me as a sheepdog, I hear something

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Burt Palmer: that I hadn't previously considered.

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Burt Palmer: Makes my decision and my leadership better for the life of the Church. And that's what it's all about. At the end of the day. The end of the day is, how do we make sure we're leading with the greatest vulnerability of the Holy Spirit as possible.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, yes, Amen.

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Andy Miller III: in in Kingwood, as you're doing this like you have this local congregation that you've been called to serve, and you're serving and nurturing those relationships, but at the same time it enters into a leadership role that you have

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Andy Miller III: maybe in part on behalf of Kingwood.

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Andy Miller III: to the connectional system of now the global Methodist church. So you said some things that highlighted this a little bit. But how do you see the this calling to be a sheepdog functioning in what you've been asked to do as a leader in the Gmc.

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Burt Palmer: Wow, that's a great question. I hadn't really translated sheepdog to the Gmc. Because,

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Burt Palmer: I just seen, I think, that my role in thinking of the Gmc. Is, say, God has given me the opportunity. I was 8 years as a registrar in a previous United Methodist Conference Board of ministry chair in a previous conference. What things have I learned in that process?

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Burt Palmer: And and I don't think of it as I think my Gotty thing is, we add, if I, if I bring my experience to ask the right questions, that's the biggest contribution I can bring.

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Andy Miller III: Hmm.

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Burt Palmer: And so that's always been. My passion is to say, can we ask the right kind of question, you know, grounded in Genesis when the 1st question in Scripture from the devil is, did God really say that? And the second question recorded Scriptures from God, saying, Where are you? So I've always been enamored with the idea. There's power in the question. And if we can get the group together, just like we experienced in Costa Rica, right? So yeah.

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Andy Miller III: Sure.

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Burt Palmer: Why are we doing this? And then, Richard Whittier is currently the chair of our Church Council, and he's a previous consultant, and he? He? He asked this question. The 1st year I was here, and it stuck with me just took my leadership, I think, to another level. Which is this simple question, what problem are we trying to solve.

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Andy Miller III: Hmm.

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Burt Palmer: So you think about all the things that we're doing legislatively. What if we drew back and say, Okay, this is a legislative work, or this is why it's written this way and ask, what problem are we trying to solve.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah.

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Burt Palmer: And so I think in my board of minister work is is just okay.

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Burt Palmer: How? How do we understand how things are connected? How a a movement of a lever or a piece over here could be connected over here. I'm just in love with Friedman's concept of systems. I mean, the reality is to put it crudely in a Friedman concept. The Gmc. Book of doctrines and disciplines is still an open billiard pool table, right? That a hit over here is going to go over here. And it's not just editorial. It's functional

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Burt Palmer: learning this. So I I just want to be a catalyst to help ask questions. Hey? Why is why is that going that way, or how does that relate to this? So that's what I think of my role in the in the Gmc. As.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, that's interesting. That's a really helpful question for our leadership to think, what problem am I here to solve? It's interesting, like, for a local church pastor.

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Andy Miller III: How do you answer that question in general like, what do you? What do you think that that is.

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Burt Palmer: Exactly. That's what if we walked into every meeting and in a prayer posture, say, God help me! See! As a leader, as a sheepdog as a catalyst.

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Burt Palmer: What problem needs to be solved

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Burt Palmer: because oftentimes, my experience has been the role of the Pastor Sheg, and the catalyst role is to help get to what the real issue is.

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Andy Miller III: -

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Burt Palmer: And and oftentimes we we get trapped in. My experience has been this, we tend in groups to talk about the things that are least significant, important at the beginning and at the very back of it we tend to. We finally get, after all, the small stuff. Then we get to the big thing, which is the reason we were there to start with. So

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Burt Palmer: as a catalyst, can you name those things in a way that talks and brings everybody to the table. Can you know, can I? Can? I say, Okay, folks, I know we're here. I know there's lots of issues we need to talk about. But

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Burt Palmer: for me as Pastor or me in this group, I think this is the most important thing I want us to be able to discuss and not let go of. And so, just by saying that and bringing that to the table, the processors who's already thought about it, or the quick processors are immediately going to jump on it. But you give space for the people who need to take back a moment, hear that, begin to digest it and think about, okay, how am I going to engage in that conversation? So I think it's just really critical just to have a posture and prayers that, God help me know.

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Burt Palmer: is I lead, or as I'm a catalyst with this group as they look to me for leadership.

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Burt Palmer: what problem

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Burt Palmer: do we need to solve.

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Andy Miller III: Give me an example of that of how this happened, maybe even recently for you, I mean, or maybe you need to go back so that people don't know who you're talking about or the particular situation isn't as relevant. I'd be curious like in a meeting like, because so much happens for me, too, serving as seminary president is in meetings like when we come together to figure out

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Andy Miller III: to decide on a direction and where we want to go. What's an example of that? Where you're seeing the main issue arise like that that you see the problem that we're not really talking about.

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Burt Palmer: Last night

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Andy Miller III: Okay.

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Burt Palmer: Months ago. I'm out. I'm out of state. I'm working together, and we've had this beautiful season where we have this advantageous moment to do a capital campaign for debt retirement, because we have an interest window that expires in February 28.th And so our goal is, hey? Let's pay this off before interest rates jump because they're going to triple based on what we have right now.

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Burt Palmer: And so I've got this tension between what needs to happen among strong leaders and a consultant and other opinions. And so I have to sit back and ask what problem is each of these people trying to solve. So I've got a consultant who's doing magnificent work for us through horizon stewardship, who brings this perspective. I've got deeply committed lay leaders who bring this perspective.

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Burt Palmer: and we needed to figure out, how do we announce where we are? In a way that continues momentum because we actually on Commitment Sunday this past Sunday we not only met our goal, but by Tuesday we exceeded our goal

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Burt Palmer: right? So.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah.

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Burt Palmer: Well, okay, so what's the problem that needs to be solved here? Well, on, there were competing issues of what the real one, the real. The real issue is, there are groups of people who still are gonna on board and make this commitment. Do we announce a number that could sort of deflate inspiring people to participate. I mean, if someone's sitting there thinking, well, I was gonna contribute. But then they got their goal. They don't need me right.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure.

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Burt Palmer: But we've got these people who've stepped forward in this season. Huge commitments.

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Burt Palmer: So what's the problem that needs to be solved? The problem needs to be solved is how to act with integrity and honor. The commitment that people have made and how to inspire people who have not yet turned in that pledge card who want to join in that journey. That's the problem that needs to be solved.

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Burt Palmer: Oftentimes we can get down to try to negotiate and argue our points.

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Burt Palmer: But I'm trying to kill it back and say, Okay, what's the problem that needs to be solved?

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Burt Palmer: Consultant. Don't forget to inspire people who aren't there yet.

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Burt Palmer: my people, hey? We've had folks who stepped up and made huge commitments. Let's celebrate that. And so I just prayed and poured into it found myself in Ephesians chapter 3. And now to him who's able to do immeasurably more than we could ever conceive or imagine.

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Burt Palmer: and I didn't to do, and so I had to be comfortable with not knowing how to answer that question when I'm climbing on a plane to leave.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure.

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Burt Palmer: Are playing in my mind.

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Burt Palmer: and and God brings to me the Scripture. It wasn't me, it was. It was all God's okay. So we crafted something that is able to do both. So the problem that we needed to solve was honoring and celebrating what God is doing and inspiring people.

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Andy Miller III: Yes.

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Burt Palmer: Be to join in and continue to help us just rock this goal and knock out the debt and handle these projects, so our church can be free of the cash.

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Andy Miller III: Capital.

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Burt Palmer: Choose and focus on transforming lives in Christ.

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Andy Miller III: Amen. Yeah. And there's a set. There's a time where you live in that ambiguity for a while, as you're trying to solve the problem as you're trying to recognize that there is a solution to this, and there is a way forward that honors both. I love that that's really helpful.

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Burt Palmer: Let me give you a microcosm. If if the only problem you thought you had to solve was inspiring. People who are marginally participatory in the life of the Church.

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Burt Palmer: and that's the only lens you went through then in communication. You would not honor everything that has been done.

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Burt Palmer: if your only thing was, Hey, we're done.

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Burt Palmer: We wouldn't honor that God calls us to inspire folks who continually are onboarding and participating and finding the joy of financial participation and understanding. You know, when God calls you he he calls your wallet too.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, yes.

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Burt Palmer: How's your bank account, you know. So how does we just understand? How does it all come together? If you were thinking you only had one problem to solve you would have missed.

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Burt Palmer: or I would have missed the opportunity to say Okay, and and then, quite frankly, as I was leaving the, you know, climbing on a plane. I was going. God, I'm gonna need you on this. I I'm stuck between these 2. I I really don't know what to do. So I pause. I listen.

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Burt Palmer: And where we arrived, I think, is is really a great kind of

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Burt Palmer: a blend of both. And we solve both problems by listening to the people around us and engaging in prayer.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, that's beautiful.

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Andy Miller III: Well, Bert, one of the things that I'm interested in for you is you've had a unique seat, and being a 3rd generation, United Methodist, a Methodist pastor, the sheepdog, at the same time being a leader in the emerging global Methodist church in your area.

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Andy Miller III: What is it I want to go on both sides as what's exciting you. And where do you think the tension areas are at this moment in the global Methodist church and keep in mind to my audience in general, isn't only Gmc. But I think that several people are thinking about and looking to Gmc. As an example of of change, and then ways that can inspire them too.

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Burt Palmer: Yeah, it's a great question.

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Burt Palmer: I think that in the

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Burt Palmer: let me back up and say.

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Burt Palmer: 2 and a half, 3 years, maybe even previously. We we all knew

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Burt Palmer: we were all united together for what we felt needed to be different, and that sort of brought us together.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure. Sure.

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Burt Palmer: Through those difficult seasons, and and the disaffiliation knit us together the excitement of having convening conferences knits us together. Phrase we're working it out is something that's become part of our nomenclature. Quite a bit.

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Burt Palmer: And so now, now, what right? So now we're past our convenience, you know. Conference or beginning setting structures up. What excites me is our ability to craft.

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Burt Palmer: what what we, what we want to become.

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Andy Miller III: Yes.

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Burt Palmer: And that is equally overwhelming almost creates some anxiety where the prayer that I have is God. Don't let my contribution screw this up.

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Burt Palmer: We. We want to be sure that when we set up things in this process of connectional sanctification that we don't become Neil fair, say, by thinking. We just need to write the right set of new rules.

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Burt Palmer: but we can't be so autonomous

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Burt Palmer: that there's no understanding of covenant and connection and expectation. And so the exciting part of that is.

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Burt Palmer: how do we figure that out together?

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Burt Palmer: How how do we, as we, as we, for example, as we move authority to boards of ministries within your conferences?

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Burt Palmer: How do we understand the role of the Connectional Council with the Board of Ministry in making making what we don't make exceptions, we talk about equivalencies right? So

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Burt Palmer: if we say that every Board of Ministry can just simply say, this does not apply. We are simply organizing infidelity to the covenant.

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Burt Palmer: But if we can set up. These are the things that are non negotiable.

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Burt Palmer: And then figure how to contextualize. Just take the idea of educational, the United States aspect of educational opportunities. What we have and what we've written.

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Burt Palmer: It's it's it's 1 set of things. But we have that global commission.

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Burt Palmer: All right. So how do we do that?

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Burt Palmer: How do we understand the responsibility of each annual conference honoring where God is bringing someone? Now, we're going to be moving towards approved institutions. So what happens if someone is is coming to us, and they've already started that process. But now their courses don't approve. How can a Board of Ministry say? Well, we don't need you to take. You've already got a Master's degree. You've got these things, but now you're going to go back and take other courses.

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Burt Palmer: How can boards of ministries have a practice to say we want to see someone demonstrates an ability to articulate the historic Wesleyan faith.

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Burt Palmer: And so I know that's a sliver of minutia. But now we're starting to see what are the practical applications of what we have written, and how do we not become autonomous?

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Burt Palmer: And again institutionalized disobedience.

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Burt Palmer: How do we give latitude? I love Wesley's. How do we get latitude without becoming latitudinarianisms? Again?

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Andy Miller III: There you go. Yeah, yeah, that's a that's a helpful thing for us to think about in this moment, because there are, there probably needs to be need to be other mechanisms for finding, like in the example that you gave, like somebody who can express, demonstrates a competency, but at the same time finding a way that that can be included in our shared covenant. I think that that's important. Yeah.

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Burt Palmer: You got the new what? It's not going to be 500 anymore, because it's getting renamed. But one of the things we're working on right now in our conference is, there's additional language that lady can be assigned that are qualified and trained according to the Board of ministry. Well, we have no clue. What that means. So what does qualified and trained mean? Well, we already have the Clm process.

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Andy Miller III: Right, right.

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Burt Palmer: So, okay, what does that mean? How does that look? In supply pastors? We specifically talked about how in this supply pastor role, we had this time period.

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Burt Palmer: But what we wrote in that was, okay. You've got this window of 5 years to get this all done. If you need an additional year. You need to submit in writing to the Board of Ministry. Your. The reason for that, and the plan so now we've done is, we've not said, Oh, 5 years doesn't apply. We've said in our process. We figured out a way to locate the authority, but also have some latitude. What happens if the person got moved, what happens if that person had cancer and couldn't go to school? We don't want to, unintentionally, because of your rule.

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Burt Palmer: undermine your ability to equip and send people, but who has the authority to work with that well, Boards of ministry should, and so that those are examples of of both the exciting but also the challenging aspect of that.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah. So this, why is that exciting? I think I have my reasons. But why is it exciting? They'll give that power that opportunity to, or maybe release people in certain contexts for ministry. Why is that a part of what's good about this Methodist moment?

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Andy Miller III: I can clarify, if you need, like, a.

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Burt Palmer: No, no, I think it's because I think for years

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Burt Palmer: we have undervalued how significant

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Burt Palmer: transformative ministry happens in places that don't have large contacts.

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Andy Miller III: Amen! Amen!

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Burt Palmer: That in the context of a place that may not be big, God is doing some amazing things for people.

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Andy Miller III: App, so.

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Burt Palmer: Make sacrificial choices, people who who are pouring their lives, at which, if you took what they're doing, and you put it in a large context, your church be twice its size.

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Andy Miller III: Amen! Amen!

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Burt Palmer: We have these amazing people, so boards of ministries, to come in and be able to walk with these individuals

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Burt Palmer: who have surrendered their lives to the call.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.

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Burt Palmer: You literally are probably the most authentic experts of what it means to give up. We've got a guy in our conference who gave up all of his family heritage in the farm, because God called him from the back of a tractor to being in a church. So are we going to say, well, we know that God's called you. But see, we have a 2 year process institution.

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Burt Palmer: How do we say, holy cow? It worked for Paul. I mean you weren't on a horse and blinded by light. But you heard from God, and you demonstrated a call, voluntarily went to a campus and started a Methodist ministry with college.

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Andy Miller III: Amen! Amen!

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Burt Palmer: You not say this is the fruit of the spirit?

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Andy Miller III: Yes, yes.

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Burt Palmer: That's what we want to celebrate. That's what we want boards of ministries to come along. No single rule will apply in every context.

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Burt Palmer: But you don't want to be defined purely by adaptable contextualization, because that's literally means that everything is subjective, so pharisaical that everything has to follow a rule. But in between those 2 places.

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Andy Miller III: Amen! Amen!

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Burt Palmer: Can you give boards of ministries the opportunity to say, Well, this is a distinctive call. The Holy Spirit on this.

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Andy Miller III: Bye.

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Burt Palmer: Like God. What do you want us to do to equip them, to continue changing lives.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, I see. I see this happening on so many fronts. I have a unique seat in that. I'm serving serving students, pastors who many of them are these type of people who have

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Andy Miller III: businesses, jobs, histories they may be some of them have left it. Some of them are still in it functioning by vocationally, and I'm not the authority. And I say, I I'm saying, Wesley Biblical Seminary. We're not the conference, but we're working on behalf of the conference on behalf of the Gmc. To train them. And as we're in these situations, we're hearing these amazing stories of people who

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Andy Miller III: have been have responded to local churches, local church need, and many times in the context of a of of A, of a church coming and tapping somebody on the shoulder and saying, Hey, we need a pastor, and we think you have these gifts.

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Burt Palmer: And at the same yeah, same time, how to honor that. And I don't think it's an either, or it's a both. And saying, okay, now, with our educational standards, how do we create a culture that pursues higher education? Still right? We still want to see that masters of it to be the normative thing for folks. We still want that for all of our students, all of our seminaries. And but we need to create some alternate ways where context may be a little bit different.

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Burt Palmer: but we also want to recognize that not everybody will fit into this mode. It is a both. And so all of these things with integrity and with intentionality.

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Burt Palmer: Because I've met some individuals in this process.

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Burt Palmer: I remember Dean Greg Jones said years ago at Duke, he said, we want to create a place to create lifelong learners.

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Burt Palmer: Well, given the availability of things like this, podcast the digital information to work. Remotely, I've met some of our folks who are far more Wesleyan in their exposure to Wesleyan theology and reading, because information is available, and they see these things than I ever was at that same stage of ministry.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah.

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Burt Palmer: I didn't have those. So so how does the Board of Ministry deal that? How do we say the equivalencies? But how do we continue to encourage lifelong learners that fall in love with Wesleyan theology and hunger, hunger for higher education in improving themselves, because that improves the bandwidth to be tuned into God to sing His praise.

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Andy Miller III: Amen, and I'll tell you I now this is going to be a bit of a commercial for Wesley Biblical Seminary, but it it is what it is. Bert. Okay.

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Burt Palmer: You're, the podcast, man.

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Andy Miller III: It is, indeed. That's what part of what we found is like. We. We just looked at what the transitional book of discipline said, and we designed our program based upon that like, okay, this seems to be where we're going. And so we developed, of course, opportunity for people to get everything they would need to get via master's degrees. We have various master degrees are available, but we did develop a

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Andy Miller III: course of study. I'm just going to use that language for now, and when we did that, what we did is we offered the same content, the exact same content, and we offered at a pass fail level. So people would come, and all they had to do is pass class. Now, some people, some people pretty smart. They realize. Okay, well, that means I don't have to do this last paper. I did really well in the class, but what I overwhelming the overwhelming response has been.

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Andy Miller III: people are incredibly appreciative of us, offering them the entirety of what a master's class is, and just an example. In our last evaluation of this we have to do these type of assessments of ourselves.

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Andy Miller III: the average master's student gets a B and the average course of study student gets a B minus, which shows you some of our best students are students who do not have even a bachelor's degree

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Andy Miller III: like they're coming in. And I have a couple even from your conference. They'll probably know I'm talking about them one who was driving a delivery truck, and I probably judged him ahead of time. I thought, well.

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Andy Miller III: this person's probably not going to do very well in this class turned out to to get a 99 in my class. I mean, just it's and just is eating it up like, get this. I'm called to be a pastor. I'm serving as a pastor. Help me like, Help me! And they're just taking they're taking it. They're not necessarily getting master's credit, though what we're able to offer is that they can transfer that credit

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Andy Miller III: for our accreditation fee to to make that happen. So I want that gold standard of the Mdiv. To still be there, like, I want people to go for that, and I'm always encouraging people to do that. But I just see the beauty of these moments of people who are released for opportunities to access something that hadn't been as available to them.

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Burt Palmer: Yeah, yeah, so very true, so very beautiful example of what? What I think, we want to create a both and environment and culture. But if we set now the tone and culture that higher education, however it looks, is the pursuit of the heart, is part of our Wesleyan distinctive.

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Andy Miller III: Amen! Amen!

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Burt Palmer: We're gonna be okay.

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Andy Miller III: Absolutely. I mean, that's 1 of the tense areas. I mean our time in Costa Rica. Probably people have said the number. One thing was, how are we going to think about bishops? But then, beyond that, thinking about ordination standards and education? Oh, are there are there any other things that you see coming, that will be a tension for us, with, as it relates to ordination and education, standards.

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Burt Palmer: lot. I think there's lots of small issues that kind of ripple through that are going to be a bit of a challenge. I think that the number one challenge is

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Burt Palmer: hitting a little bit of a reset when when we came out of transition waves of folks, and we sort of created culture like, well, if I just want to become gmc, I just transfer, and all my stuff is done. So we're starting now to see some of that tension where it's clearly stated, and what will become, I think, 5 10.1 A is currently in

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Burt Palmer: in the 4 hundreds. But you would be a deacon for 2 years.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.

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Burt Palmer: Right, and and then you can apply for Elder. But it says deacons with effective service. But it didn't define what effective service looks like, but it does have the 2 years. So we have some folks who said, Well, wait in what's currently 419 with a transitional, I just simply can be ordained to Deacon than an elder. And so how to hit some of that clarity that we're we're we're past the season of just full waves of transition.

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Andy Miller III: Sure, sure.

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Burt Palmer: We need to live into this covenant. And how do we do that in a way that helps helps those who are pursuing ministry? Understand it. That's gonna be a critical aspect. I think a place of growth for us will be making sure that we have the appropriate both conversations and doorways open for other Wesleyan traditions that, as people find themselves

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Burt Palmer: called to a Wesleyan, this this global Methodist church expression of Wesleyanism? How do we make sure that they're they're equivalent there. The others really aren't really. I mean, they're they're the detail minutia that

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Burt Palmer: I'm probably odd because it's important to me how those processes are in place. But there's responsibilities being transferred to Boards of ministry that used to be with Tlc, that's why we have to be in cohort. We're kind of working together, Dan.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah.

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Burt Palmer: Leslie Tomlinson, Sam Pageant Lauren Roberts, we should all try to get together and go. Hey, how's this gonna work for us? So it's a lot of minutia, is, is.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah. So you do a good job that minutia. And I'm thankful for it. And I need like, I need to hear from it. Now. How is it, then, like in your kind of going back to sheepdog being the sheepdog like in your local church, as you as you think through balancing these 2 things. I'm just that you have a definite responsibility. Tuesdays and Thursdays, or whatever day it is that you have these meetings. And

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Andy Miller III: on Sunday. Okay, gotcha when you do that?

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Andy Miller III: balancing these 2 things. Has that been difficult this season, or is it? Tell me how you're approaching that

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Andy Miller III: the Con Conference level connectional level big big picture with the like. Today, I need to be serving Kingwood.

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Burt Palmer: Day by day.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah.

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Burt Palmer: Yeah, it's a day by day thing. I think being able to for me. And my leadership style is telling the staff and telling our elected leaders why I'm doing where I what I'm doing and why I am, where I am.

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Andy Miller III: They can.

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Burt Palmer: So communication is just critical that in a very pragmatic kind of way,

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Burt Palmer: and being able, I find that the balance.

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Burt Palmer: the degree to which I focus on my walk with Christ as a disciple from the waters of my baptism.

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Burt Palmer: When I lose touch with that

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Burt Palmer: the sheepdog becomes blurred.

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Burt Palmer: I stay in touch with my discipleship in my own walk with Christ, it shines clarity into what God is calling me in my role as a sheepdog, because if if I lose touch with that, I get caught up in being more reactive

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Burt Palmer: in my human side rather than asking, Oh, God! If you place me here for the season. God! What is it you're calling for from me? What is it you need me to do? And how can I be a responsive leader with intentionality, and not a reactive leader just out of what's there. And how can. So I just I find that's just so critical. So and it makes me helpful. So.

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Andy Miller III: I'm finding myself in those similar tensions and just working through it day by day, just listening to Shepherd's voice. I appreciate you saying this? Well, my last question is this the title? My podcast is more the story, I think, of that in a theological concept, we're not just saved to be forgiven and get out of hell. But there's the road that we're on an entire sanctification. But at the same time I'd love to hear more to the story of Bert. Is there something that you like to do, something a hobby you have that you maybe don't get to talk about very much that people might not know about you.

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Burt Palmer: Oh, gosh! Looking at my physical frame, people probably wouldn't realize I love to cycle

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Andy Miller III: Okay.

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Burt Palmer: Mountain bike like that. I love golf. I'll be out for a while because I really damaged my elbow. But I love golf.

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Burt Palmer: Just a a lot spend of time. We've got some grandkids. So as we carve out time, I love just climbing in the car to go. Take care of grandkids, spend time with wife. So you know just

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Burt Palmer: those those are things that.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah.

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Burt Palmer: So, yeah.

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Andy Miller III: Great. Well, Bert, thanks so much for your time today. Thanks for what you're doing in Kingwood and for the Gmc. In this pivotal moment. It's really been a great to get to talk with you today. Thanks for your time.

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Burt Palmer: I love it. Let's let's let's wrap up with a word of prayer.

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Andy Miller III: Oh, let's do it. Yes, please do it. Yeah, go for it.

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Burt Palmer: Let me pray for it.

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Burt Palmer: Oh, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, God! I'm so grateful for this gift of technology and for this conversation

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Burt Palmer: you're God who created us with the ability to be conversant both to speak and to listen. So I pray your blessing upon all that Wesley Biblical Seminary does all of our folks in God, in higher education, all the amazing people in our laity, and those that are abridging laity to be in representative ministry, that are answering the call. God help us! Never lose sight

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Burt Palmer: that you call us 1st and foremost in our identity, for the waters of our baptism.

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Andy Miller III: Yes.

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Burt Palmer: Thank you for that call of Christ. Thank you for Andy's ministry, and thank you for the privilege that we have to talk about your good good nature, your gracious love, the redeeming power of Christ, and the work of your Holy Spirit. God bless

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Burt Palmer: all who listen to this, that they would pour themselves into time to listen

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Burt Palmer: to what you want to do in their lives.

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Andy Miller III: Yes.

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Burt Palmer: We say this in the matchless and powerful name of Christ our Lord. Amen.

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Andy Miller III: Amen. Thanks, Bert.