Networks Not Denominations with Shane Bishop
April 6, 2023
Shane Bishop serves as pastor at Christ Church in Fairview Heights, IL. That church has disaffiliated from the United Methodist Church but is not joining another denomination. Instead, Christ Church is connecting to several other large churches in the Foundry Network.
YouTube - https://youtu.be/YeWJGnqjiq4
Audio - https://andymilleriii.com/media/podcast
Apple - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-to-the-story-with-dr-andy-miller/id1569988895?uo=4
We also talk about Shane’s new book That’s Good News: How to Overcome Your Fear and Evangelize.
Transcript
Audio file
Transcript
Andy Miller III
Well, I am so glad that you are here for this podcast. Here's somebody that I have seen online for a while and just met him 5 minutes ago, so I am really glad to welcome to the podcast. Shane Bishop, Reverend Shane Bishop, who serves at church. In southern Illinois, a greater Saint Louis area, Shane, welcome to the podcast.
Shane Bishop
Thank you. Andy, would you say I'm the very best friend you have that you've known 5 minutes or less currently?
Andy Miller III
Oh wow. I've never been asked that question. Yeah, right, right. Now, that's it. Yeah, I'm going to say yes. I'm afraid to. Say no.
Shane Bishop
Love it.
Andy Miller III
I don't know what will. Happen like oh man, is that a trick question? I don't know. I'm just gonna stick with yes.
Speaker
Oh good.
Andy Miller III
Who and what I've seen of you online and what you're doing? That's Shane. Some of my audience might know you. A lot of our folks are kind of like in the Pan Wesleyan world all together, but I'd love for you to tell us a little about yourself and how you got where you are, where you're serving, and then what I'm particularly interested eventually to ask you some questions about the way that your church has. Left United Methodist Church. We'll get to that in a little bit, but let's just hear a little bit about you and how you got to Southern Illinois.
Shane Bishop
Yeah, my dad. His name's Fred Bishop. He heads up a group called No Greater Love Ministries.
Andy Miller III
OK, we're.
Shane Bishop
Doing men's ministry back before men's ministry was cool and they did a lot of streets. Do a lot of St. Ministry, so it started in 1976. SoI'mkind of reared in this street. Evangelism culture, more along the lines. Equipping men to share the gospel, challenging men to get outside their comfort zone. Seeing real growth in the hearts of men. Street ministry being a tool that get gets everybody out of their comfort. Zone raised in that got out of college, taught athletes all the way through taught history. And Coach, baseball and basketball. OK, then got a call from my university asking me if I'd be interested in in coming back for a full ride on a Masters degree. If I would be willing to be a TA and then also got a a simultaneous call from a Methodist Church wanting to know if I would be interested in being part of their staff. To run their family life ministries. So this all kind of is a bit of a confluence around 1986, it kind of starts me off on a journey toward vocational.
Andy Miller III
So what? What school is that at where you are you're serving in? That role like.
Shane Bishop
Southern Southern Illinois University at Carbondale.
Andy Miller III
OK. And now those are the.
Shane Bishop
Salukis, those are the Salukis. Yes, after Egyptian dogs. And who is it named after an Egyptian dog?
Andy Miller III
There you go. It's. A tough one to say. I guess there's a lot of barking or something like that at your at your.
Shane Bishop
The dog pound kind of thing, yes, yes.
Andy Miller III
Not what it is, OK.
Shane Bishop
Yeah, but I I got my undergrad there, also went to grad school there. I graduated from grad school in history, Ed, and my plan was to be a baseball coach at the JUCO level.
Andy Miller III
OK.
Shane Bishop
I'd love the JUCO. It was a great opportunity for me coming out of a small town and to teach history. At the JUCO level. And and right about the time I was ready to get that. No one felt a very clear and definite call to go to seminary. I called my wife while I was on a mission trip, told her. I feel called to go to seminary and she said OK. When do we leave? And so that kind of began a very different journey for me.
Andy Miller III
And so then you served in the the conference is at Southern Illinois Conference. Was the name of the conference where after you after seminary, I guess you went back? To that conference.
Shane Bishop
I presume. I went to seminary at at Emory University in Atlanta. Theology served three years in a A small church there, two small churches in Manchester. Georgia and then by the graduation, you still had the Southern Illinois Conference that had not yet merged with Central Illinois.
Speaker
OK.
Shane Bishop
And IItook an appointment there in a town called Sumner, also had a country church called Beulah. But two really big churches. Summer ran about 200 at the time. Beulah ran about 100, and so hit the ground out of seminary, doing ministry in a corn country.
Andy Miller III
OK. So then at some point you, how long before you got to churchyou're serving as it comes? Is it Fairview heights? Is that the name of the church?
Shane Bishop
At Fairview Heights, I was at Sumner for five years.
Andy Miller III
OK.
Shane Bishop
You look, things went really, really well when you were in a tiny little town. And God really blessed the churches they they really grew and things were going great. Got a call one day from the powers that be in Methodism, said we have just relocated a church in the suburbs. It's been there for about a year. The current pastor is going to become a district Superintendent and we feel like you're the guy to take it to the next level. And in. In July of 1996, off I went for Fairview Heights High. Seven off I went for Fairview Heights.
Andy Miller III
OK. And you've been there.
Shane Bishop
Since I've been there ever since in the. Year 26.
Andy Miller III
Wow. Awesome.
Shane Bishop
Looks like it'sgonna work out.
Andy Miller III
That sounds true. Now I love how you all throughout your story, and then you've talked about the the first church, Sumter, is that it?
Shane Bishop
Sumner Sumner. Yes.
Andy Miller III
Sumner, Sumner. OK, some Sumner. How that church grew. And I, I don't think you're talking about numbers in in the sense of like, OK, we are successful, but you have a new book that's coming out called. That's good news. How to overcome your fear and evangelize. And I think the key to what you've done, what you've been able to lead and empower people to do by the power of the Holy Spirit, is embrace evangelism, right? Is that the the key task that I feel like is when you talk about growth, is that how growth happened or did some other churches close and just come to this one?
Shane Bishop
When Lynn Wilson from Invite Resources first contacted me about writing the the book on Evangelism. Yeah, I think he said. He said II just feel like you're the guy to do this for us. And I I came out of a street evangelism background, and so sharing the good news, believing the gospel is good news and being able and equipped to share it is always been something I've brought to my churches. So, you know, I always say. Evangelism 101 you invite someone to church. I'll tell them about Jesus once they get here. 201, I want to equip you to tell people about Jesus yourself.
Andy Miller III
OK.
Shane Bishop
And soI've just always had this strong evangelistic impulse. And when people start inviting folks to church, if you're proclaiming the gospel, once they get there, people are going to start getting saved, and they're going to start becoming disciples, and they're going to get involved. And your churches are going to be transformed. Pretty simple.
Andy Miller III
Now you talk about kind of a course, so to speak. I like how you lay this out. Evangelism 099. What do you mean by that?
Shane Bishop
But we always talk about it. I talked about it in the book. We talk a lot about just what stages of evangelism. So evangelism O 99, you know, just. Hopping in that sharing on Facebook that you went. To church today. OK, just. Just marking yourself present or or passing along something sharing something. Just some way that sort of identifies you as a Christian at least, lets the people in your world know you went to church, not very threatening you. You do it when you go to restaurants or movies. Just kind of deal. That into the. Six let people know and that becomes something that establishes you. Maybe it's a little different than everybody else that they know and might establish you to move into what we. Call 10. One just kind of move to the next.
Speaker
OK.
Shane Bishop
Level of vandalism.
Andy Miller III
Now here's the thing I I come from a tradition that has evangelize core, the Salvation Army, and one of the things that happens is 099 version, oh, 99. However, you said it is. There's a very public display through a uniform establishment uniform, and so that and so sometimes you think like walking into a restaurant or walking around town. That is kind of that 099 work like that, that's great. But unfortunately sometimes it can stay there. Right, but we need. To move from 099 to 101, right? What's that move to?
Shane Bishop
101 well, let's just kind of takeyour. Old 99 and make it the. New 101 we have. A lot of Christchurch gear so we. At Christ Church, where a large, large congregation, so we've got an Insignia and all of that. That'spretty well known in our. We just encourage people to wear the gear. So we're gonna get pretty high end gear, the kind of stuff people would actually wear normally. And the idea is if someone asks you about your shirt, if they ask you about Christ Church, we just simply give them. A little business. That is something that they can respond. So if they ask about. Christchurch, what is Christchurch? Where is Christchurch boom? They can pull out a card, offer people an invitation to church. I I got a funny story about that. Andy could be 4-5 six years ago. I'm I'm in Sam's Wholesale Club on a Friday to eat lunch because my friend I have 3 bucks to get a pizza special.
Andy Miller III
Go for it.
Shane Bishop
And Sam's I've got a Christchurch sweatshirt on. It's about this time of year. It just says Christchurch got a hood on it. I walk in the young lady waiting on me. She goes to Christ Church. Is that the one on Frank Scott Parkway? I say. Yep, she said. Do you go to church here said Yep. She said. I've been thinking about attending. Do you think I'd like it? I said I do. And I hand her card.
Andy Miller III
Yeah, sure.
Shane Bishop
Sam, next week, after church, she runs up to me and says, why didn't you tell me you? Were the pastor. And I said because I didn't think it should matter.
Andy Miller III
Right.
Shane Bishop
It just shouldn't matter. It should. Be something that all Christians do. So that's that kind. Of that thing, you know, somebody asks. I don't. I didn't approach her, I said shirt on and she asked. But to quote a little old King James, I had an answer. For the hope that was. In me, I had a little bit of a plan and a way to follow that up.
Andy Miller III
There you go. Awesome. So then then the move to 201. So when people evangelize themselves, so you, you wanna like get people to to the church? I love that. Like, let's just think about what that is and I wanna get back to your very last chapter about that in a second. But what do? You what's involved with 201 for you?
Shane Bishop
Oh, let's just make a direct invitation. Church, you know, let'slet's just make that direct invitation and one of the best ways to do it, you know. You can buy billboards, and that's great for the Billboard companies, and you can put a million slicks in the newspaper and that's great for the the slicks companies. But people come to. Church, because somebody they know or respect and. And then you bring people to church on your arm. You you say, hey, would you like to come?
Speaker
Wow, yeah.
Shane Bishop
To church with us. We'll save you a seat. We go to this service. Would you like to grab lunch afterwards? So we want to equip people to make those invitations. Would you join us? Would you join me in worship? That's that next step. And it goes from. Playing defense where you have an answer if someone. Yes to being a little bit more forward, but we always talk about hearing the Holy Spirit, hearing the ping of the Holy Spirit, you know, be sensitive to the right time. You'remaybe in a conversation. You're at school with a bunch of. Parents or something like that and and somebody mentions they just moved into town. No, say, hey, if there's anything I can help you with, let me know. And if you're looking for a church boy, do we have a great one? Just helping people make natural fluid. Next, I think a lot of times when people think of evangelism and think somebody's got a bullhorn and they're shooting. At an ohh blank range at somebody blowing them out, we're just looking for natural spirit LED ways to equip people to share their faith.
Andy Miller III
This is awesome and and one of the things that you're emphasizing then is like some people will resist this getting people in the doors like ohh well, let's just like live it out where we are. Let's do these various things like let'slet's not try to emphasize just like church attendance too much, but you interesting in the very last chapter I found really interesting. Give pastors and churches. Some guidelines, some like helpful tools to think about how they're prepared for it, and this is one of the things like you say, are are people ready to receive people who are coming to church. And then secondly, yeah, like what, what does that mean? Like how do how do we often miss the point there?
Shane Bishop
Well, I think sometimes. You know, first of all, if we're not excited about things nobody else is. I mean, if you don't love your church, if you're not excited about your church, if you don't honestly believe that your church is going to be a blessing to somebody, you're not going to bite them if you don't honestly believe the. Gospel is good news. If you buy this cultural lie of a narrative that Christians are haters and andand all we want to do is run. Everybody's party and ruin everybody's time if you buy into that narrative, you're never going to share the God. But we believe the gospel is good news and if it's good news you want to share it. Who doesn't want to share good news? And I think part of it, Andy, is just equipping people Christians with what I'm going to call a biblical mentality. The people in the New Testament believed the gospel was good news. They believed they had something to. Offer, I believe our church has something to offer. I believe that Jesus has a great deal to offer, but for 2/3 of people, it's easier for them to invite someone to church than it is to share their faith. Solet's just take baby steps. Let's start invite somebody to church. I'll share Jesus with them once they get there. And then we have to look at our. Church, if we get. A first time guess. Yeah then. How's our welcoming? How's our greeting?
Andy Miller III
Right.
Shane Bishop
How is our follow up? What does our facility look like? Are they feeling loved and appreciated? Do they know? Where the bathroom is, do they know where to get a cup of coffee? It just brings up a lot of things that we ask ourselves and then. What is our follow up? What is our plan? How do we reach out to these people once they'veidentified themselves? Our mission is we exist to connect people to Jesus Christ. We don't exist to grow the church, but if we are effective at connecting people, we'll grow the church so inviting people, if they answers them, also gives you a chance to evaluate, test your systems and to look at are you honestly prepared to connect? People with Jesus. A lot of churches aren't.
Andy Miller III
Right. I think one thing that's interesting is when that happens and you think about what issomebody who is coming, who you've invited, what is their? A lot of times that starts soon as they, uh. I mean, probably before. What does your website look like, right? Like, what's your website look like? They'regonna check you out before you get there before. They get there probably. Then also, what does a parking lot look like likelike what does it feel when somebody opens the door? I mean that might be one of the hardest things for them to do, just even. Opening in the door to walk into the church. So you you say interesting enough that you need to get you that people should focus their resources. On improving Sunday morning worship services, some people have disagree with that. Some people say no. We need to focus externally on onon, on works of mercy in the Community, or we need to do it or our missions or whatever. But you're saying, focus your energy towards Sunday morning.
Shane Bishop
Yeah, I really believe that is the catalyst. That's the bread and butter of everything the church does. And even if deep in your heart you believe the church exists to do great good and andI'm, I'm just going to counter that narrative because the way I read the Great Commission, the church exists to connect people to Jesus Christ, not to do good. That being said. We're going to do all kinds of. Good. It's just.
Andy Miller III
Yeah, sure.
Shane Bishop
Not the primary focus of the church. Church is focused on having people have an experience life changing eternity, changing experience with God through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. And then we want to invite them into community of the church. And so for me, we make no apologies. In inviting people to church and the other, I think Andy of the of the really bad theories that I think have come down the Turnpike in the last 10. Years was this idea that evangelism is inviting the community to? Do good with. Us because church just do that all the time. It's not resulted in anyone coming to Jesus. It's not resulted in churches growing. It's not resulted in strengthening the Kingdom. It's just expanding our humanitarian work. Now, if you want to do that and add evangelism and invite people to church. While they're helping invite people to Jesus while they're helping share your faith while they're helping, that could be a very effective 1-2 punch. The humanitarian work in itself,it's not what we're called to do.
Andy Miller III
Right. It's interesting. I and I come from an organization that ended up emphasizing the humanitarian side so much that you could say, OK, we're not going and there's not one Salvation Army church. It's larger than 300 people out of 1200 in the United States. Now some people will say that as a notch of pride, like we're not a church, we're not called well. But the same time, they have congregations that. Take tides. Have pastors Mary Barry Hall. So their evangelism isn't happening there. What happens is, well, we're gonna be the church. In our shelters. But here's a challenge. You know, this is me being a little critical. It's you could be critical Methodist. I can. Be critical of. Salvationists you know? So this is like the the challenge is that the proclamation of gospel doesn't always happen like the the the description of Jesus's activity on our behalf and. Our opportunity to receive that by the power of the Holy Spirit and become a new people who are experiencing his best for our life, all of. That, you know it gets. Focused a lot of times and I'll say most of the time on those works of mercy, those works of service which are wonderful, but instead instead of saying like well. In the context of our congregations, this is where people come to a relationship with Jesus, and this is where their disciple it doesn't just stop with the evangelism there. Of course, it's like this continual journey that comes. So I see that like, I just want to affirm that as a group that maybe gave up some of the evangelistic mandate for the good of serving the world.
Shane Bishop
Andy, I've done a gazillion consultations and church growth stuff, and here's how the conversations always go. I'll say to somebody. Tell me what you're excited about concerning your church and they'll always tell me about all the good they're doing. And andthey're always doing all kinds of good. And then I'll say, how's your church doing? And their countenance falls. And they go. We're dying. A lot of churches are just doing good to death. They're doing good to death, and unless we figure out how to put the Jesus piece back in, I'm not saying do less good. I'm just saying. We need to include straight up evangelism and we need to embrace that evangelistic message again. Otherwise, all of our churches are in a death.
Andy Miller III
OK, this I think that's a good transition. I was planning to talk about this in reverse order, but I love how the spirit led us to talk about evangelist at this point because that'sprobably my guess at the heart of, well, the nature of why your church maybe is left the United method. But let me just let's. Talk about the the growth of your church so. If with these principles, with this emphasis. Like your church has grown, am I correct?
Shane Bishop
Yeah. When? When I was, when I first came here, the church ran about 200 a week in one service before the pandemic hit, we were running about 2200 a week in Fife worship services with three campuses. So.
Andy Miller III
OK.
Shane Bishop
We, whatever God did here, God took what he had, and we increased tenfold.
Andy Miller III
OK, praise the Lord. So that's a part of let me let me before we even get to the foundry network which I want to talk about. Tell me about how that interacts with a denomination being a large church, a growing church in a denomination, this seems like that's not always the trend is for denominational churches. To to grow to to such numbers. So tell me about that in your interaction with the United Methodist Church.
Shane Bishop
But there certainly within the United Methodist Church, when we were still in the denomination, there certainly were some growing churches. Yeah, I mean, there certainly were and. And one thing I noticed that seemed to be very much the vast majority, the growing churches were theologically. Traditional and Orthodox, the growing churches emphasized evangelism and discipleship, and the growing churches had long term, steady senior leadership. Those were simply things that for 95% of those churches, that was the characteristic.
Speaker
OK.
Shane Bishop
That, however, was not the model of the denomination in many, many ways, and so as churches get to be a certain size. How much do they need a denomination? Certainly they don't need senior leadership turning over all of the time, and so some of those aspects certainly play in to denominational implosion. We often look at the presenting issues.
Speaker
Sure, sure.
Shane Bishop
We can look at theological. Issues, but there's also. Once you get to. Be a mega church size which is just a sociological term, not a theological term, but which gets to be a very, very big church. You're sort of a denomination, or at least a district unto yourself.
Andy Miller III
Yeah, to be a district. That that's, of course, the the critique of mega churches is that they end up being like kind of like their own denomination. So it's interesting you just go ahead and claim that and I'm glad like I don't. I don't resist that at all either. OK. So it is also, though, is evangelism, though that's often missing too in these pieces. So you. You're it's interesting to me that people who are often in systems that have itinerary. Uh, system or a command structure? People are moved around. Don't stay for 26 years. So how did you stay? How did you stay even for the 1st 15? You know, like without getting moved, how does that work?
Shane Bishop
Well, I think in the early years it's a little tougher, but it it, God just blessed our church. Our church grew for 21 consecutive years, mean every single year.
Andy Miller III
OK.
Shane Bishop
And we we had bishops in this conference and and good. Superintendents in this conference, who in my case saw the value of a pastor who was. Well, well suited for a particular area at a particular congregation, and I think they sort of eventually went to the if it ain't broke, don't fix it rule. And we certainly were a bit of an anomaly, but there were other long term pastors here and there, and almost all of our churches that have grown from plant to mega or from very small to incredibly large. One of the things they almost always have in common is a senior leader. Who's been there? For two or three decades.
Andy Miller III
Right. It seems like this makes sense. Like, let's take note of. This folks like what's? Happening and so. OK. So you guys grew in an amazing way. You were able to have consistent leadership overtime which is part of why that the Christchurch was able to grow. But I'm not sure when it happened, but you all have already disaffiliated from the unit at this church, correct? Can you tell us about that process?
Shane Bishop
Yeah, we we disaffiliated in 2021. Kind of started the process before the pandemic and it was just a a matter. I don't think it's any secret. The the American Mainline is essentially imploded. The United Methodist Church was sort of the last of the mainline churches to to walk through that difficult, difficult. Michael and and I think, Andy, it's something anybody. He could see coming. Yeah, and. To be frank with you, I hoped it would come. After I retired, how's that? I mean, I did I. I knew it was all going to blow. The crap at. Some point I hoped it would be after I retired. And when we saw how things were going down, when we lived through, we had general conference that dealt only with human sexuality. The worldwide Methodist meeting was in Saint Louis. So 15 minutes from us.
Andy Miller III
OK.
Shane Bishop
And it got so divisive in the press. So divisive there we lost a lot of people from our congregation. So all of a sudden the dysfunctions of the denomination started affecting us locally. OK. At that point, we decided we were going to have to do something about it to be able to establish our own narrative and to keep going and growing what God had been doing so. We decided our best path was to.
Andy Miller III
So it's interesting like what happened, like it affected you locally were were there people who are saying, look, you're Christchurch is great, but I can't support the denomination or was it they just didn't like the conflict. What was it? What was it that led to those challenges local? What were those local challenges?
Shane Bishop
Well, I think we built this church in, in. A lot of ways by. Focusing on a mission, we exist to connect. People to Jesus. And in the 90s and early 2000s, it was sort of and we're going to disagree. On all kinds of things. Yeah, after 2016 and as it went into 1718, the cultural wars in 19, all of a sudden it got very, very difficult to go to church with people who had diametrical. Opposite political views than you, right? And for the first time in my life, people began to view theology through a political lens, and all of a sudden, people cannot imagine attending a church if they suspected that the senior pastor disagreed with them on immigration policy, or if they suspected that the pastor had a traditional stance toward marriage. And family and before long, fueled by social. India, it just got very difficult for churches to be pretty heterogeneous as we had been for a long time. And so a lot of those divides began to happen. At first, I thought what was happening in Methodist? Was it in Methodism, was a Tempest in a teapot. But I began to see we were just a teapot in a much larger Tempest. What was happening to us was just a microcosm of what. Was happening in America. Erica and we felt the need to to establish our own narrative because the narrative of the denomination was increasingly not who we were or where we were.
Andy Miller III
So I imagine that being a large church and even the fact that I know who you are, though, I don't know much about. I just based on social media and a few videos here or. There just.
Shane Bishop
But we've been best friends for like 20 minutes now, not five like 20 minutes.
Andy Miller III
Oh, in 25 minutes an hour.
Shane Bishop
I mean, thinking the quality time we've spent together.
Andy Miller III
I know so much more than so many other people. I am so yeah.
Shane Bishop
Stop it. Really shock it.
Andy Miller III
So like I imagine that that you're being a large church gave you some influence within the United Methodist Church. So did did you? Did you sense like a calling for a period to try to work at renewing the church?
Shane Bishop
Oh, I spent the the first decades of of my ministry. Trying to do that I I served as a general conference delegate three times jurisdictional Conference delegate four times. I was elected by my peers. I was served 24 year stints on the Episcopacy Committee for the jurisdiction. Which decides where Bishop goes. I did everything I could. To try to have a voice, but it became clear after a while that where I was and where I am is I'm a traditional Bible believing Wesleyan Christian, but I'm not in a bad. Mood about it? And so where I was was decreasingly reflecting where. The denomination seemed to be heading as a whole and it it would as I played it forward to a logical extreme, it felt like it was time to lead in another direction.
Andy Miller III
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we've talked about some of this with some of our past guests. I had somebody from Northern Illinois or Chicago, you know, I met this church on who's staying in the nomination, but the the the exact day that we had our conversation, that was where there was a a drag queen, past pastoral candidate from southern Illinois. So I'm guessing that's in your conference. So just to highlight for my. Those type of things are happening where Shane is serving and so if you're sure and I don't know if how much you know about West biblical scenario, but where a seminary that's in the evangelical Wesleyan tradition serving the denominations across that tradition, we believe in the authority of like everything he just said, the authority of Scripture, the reality and. Promise of entire sanctification and also the opportunity that we have to embrace, like the good news of the gospel, to share that wide and and as wide as we can. So that's a part of who we are as an organization. We like we, I did it and I think most of my audience. Is there with you. So it's interesting then like you just disaffiliate and uh, some people probably know about that process maybe ahead of the game a little bit there been some other churches that had done that. Before you but. You're in this process now. So then you have to figure out what you want to do, what what were your options when you disaffiliate of what you would do, like go to another denomination. Well, tell me about those.
Shane Bishop
Well, clearly it's one thing to decide. You're going to leave Egypt and it's something else entirely to figure out which direction the promise land might be, yeah. I formed a some of our best and brightest folks at Christchurch II formed a. A just a pastoral group. Early in this process, I said I don't want to be a part of this. I just want you to be a task force. I want you to look at the denomination, you know, our church. I want you to study this stuff, and I want you to come back with recommendations.
Andy Miller III
OK.
Shane Bishop
So they came back to me and the reality was, I mean, this is going to be overstated a little bit, but the reality was they said we can't stay in this denomination. We would love for you to be our pastor. But we're. Not going to stay.
Andy Miller III
OK.
Speaker
And so.
Shane Bishop
I had already reached my wife and I, Melissa. We had already reached a conclusion after 2019 that. We couldn't stay.
Andy Miller III
OK.
Shane Bishop
So we separately reached a decision and that's one thing I I really believe is true. I I don't think pastors and churches are one and the same. I I think that pastors have one decision to make. And I think churches have a decision to make and then they have to ask. Is our path together or not? But we went through a lengthy period of discernment, which was extended because of COVID. But the recommendation didn't come to me. In fact, I think in some ways some of the folks on the inside here would probably say I was one. I was. Among the last to come around. Because I've just been a, you know, I Methodist my my whole life they've treated me very, very well. I have dear friends, I care about the denomination, but in our case. Our path lied in a different direction. So then once. People hear you getting out. You get calls from various and sundry denominations, you.
Andy Miller III
Know I joined the Salvation Army.
Shane Bishop
Yeah, exactly. We got a lot of those. So we took a look at the options that were available out there and frankly decided that none of them fit us terribly. Well, but we didn't want to be a standalone independent churches. We see that as having too many Achilles heels to it.
Andy Miller III
OK.
Shane Bishop
And so we didn't want to be a standalone independent church. So I got on the phone, began to talk to other pastors who were out or getting out, who were in similar sized churches. And we all got together in the Georgia. Mountains and five of us got together and said, hey, what is it we need? We're going to leave. That's already decided. But what is it we need for our size of church where we stand theologically? What do we need in terms of a tribe and accountability? What is it we really, really need to further our? Missions and what can we do? And so the foundry network. Grew out of that.
Andy Miller III
OK. So that that is really interesting. Did the the committee from your congregation come to you and say there are no options or did well, what was that? Was that there where they were or was that after the fact that they? Had decided to leave.
Shane Bishop
No, I think they pretty much decided to leave Egypt and left it to me. To find the promised land.
Andy Miller III
Got you. OK, interesting. OK. With obviously there's several denominations, so you're not picking on any one of them here. Obviously, the Global Methodist Church just started in 2022. They weren't around then. What was it about the denominations that just didn't? Wasn't your promised land?
Shane Bishop
Yeah, well, one thing I I want to stay very clearly. I was a part of WCA. I was on their Global Council from almost their inception.
Speaker
OK.
Shane Bishop
Served on it for years. It was a keynote speaker at many of the events, and I do want to say this as WCA has become essentially become the Global Methodist Church. Some of the finest. Christian people I've ever met are part of the Global Methodist Church, and I can't tell you how much respect I have for them. I know their hearts and I believe for the vast majority of churches that are leaving the United Methodist Church, particularly small churches who might have trouble. Attracting a pastor or pastors who might have trouble finding a congregation. On the open. Market I believe that global Methodist is the right move for the vast majority of those churches.
Andy Miller III
OK.
Shane Bishop
Others have found other communities to be a part of and and I applaud all of them. But for us, for a Church of our size, moving from one denomination that we decreasingly agreed with. To another denomination that we agreed with didn't make a ton of sense for us because we didn't feel called to be part of a denomination we wanted to be part of a.
Andy Miller III
OK, interesting. So that's what you feel like boundary is the foundry network is a movement tell tell me about what I mean you described it a little bit the five people got together in a Georgia mountains and but what is it that they have a denomination is a kind of a a category that's unique, it hasn't always existed. I mean some people you say denomination, it means a difference in coins. You know, like what it what does it mean like a denomination? Nevertheless, like there is something that a denomination supplied is to a local church, a connectional lism accountability, but. Like your your church and this group of pastors are choosing to move away from that. So I'm I'm curious. Of of the reasons for that.
Shane Bishop
One is if you look at historically. If you look at why denominations form. They formed so that like minded Christians. Could put aside the things that other Christians argue about and fuss about, and focus on evangelism. That was it. And in a sense, modern denominationalism is a train wreck. Because all they do is fight and fuss, and what we should do is say we are the people who agree on these things. So now let's go tell people about Jesus and let's make disciples. Let's let's go to Judea and Samaria and the uttermost parts of the earth. A denomination should be a springboard. I hope Global Methodist is is is able to do that. However, for some churches and very, very large churches being a part of a denomination costs hundreds of thousands of dollars a year out of our budgets. They're called apportionments in Methodists. And you have to ask yourself, as a congregation where as a steward of our resources. Where can those dollars be best used? And in our case, our leadership said locally we can best use those hundreds of thousands of dollars that would normally go to apportionments we can best use those for local things. And so that was a part of it. But we still felt we needed a tribe. We still felt we needed accountability. We still felt that we needed a connection among churches and pastors. We thought we could get those things in a network and not. Have to pay a cent for.
Andy Miller III
I show it's a network. There's no, there's no fees or anything involved with it like in that way. But there is like, is there a, you've said you're a a Wesleyan Bible believing even I forget all the terms. You OK? But nevertheless, like I'm with you. Whatever all. Those terms are, is, are those principles. Theological like foundations that unite you. Like, are you that that you're in, like a kind of like, for lack of a better word, evangelical group?
Shane Bishop
Yeah, Andy, just let me do an old dude thing and put some glasses on.
Andy Miller III
Oh, there you go.
Shane Bishop
But to to. Be a part of the founder. We're a we're a network of large churches, so we. Make no apologies for that. We're a network.
Andy Miller III
What's a law? Church, what's up?
Shane Bishop
We're saying a reach of at least 750.
Andy Miller III
Like so 750 on a Sunday.
Shane Bishop
Or however people you know, boy statistics have never met last have. They, but we're just saying if you feel like you're a large search and you reach about 7:00. 150 people. A week. That's kind of our minimum. OK. We to join the network to apply for the network. We have some things. For example, we believe that. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. We believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. We strive for ministry and it's full of grace and truth. Our priority is the advancement of the Kingdom of Christ and and we've just got things that we believe. So if you don't. Believe these, that's fine. But you're not going to be part of our network. That's what denominations used to be.
Andy Miller III
Yeah, sure.
Shane Bishop
These things. That's fine, but you're not going to be part of our denomination. But we want churches who are of a critical mass that we understand, that do ministry and ecclesiastical economy of similar churches. That because large churches have different issues. Than smaller churches and we can help each other through those. But we also are going to make some very clear stands about where we are. If a church wants to be in, they need to be in agreement with that. And if they say they're an agreement and they end up not being in agreement, we'll just toss them out.
Andy Miller III
OK. And so there's obviously like a board like a various pastors will vote to have other churches join like the.
Shane Bishop
We've got the, the. Original folks that were in it right now, we're kind of keeping the gate. We'll see. You know, this plane is somewhat being constructed as we go. But the reality is there are no apportionments. We own no property. We do not ordain. Individual churches are free to ordain. So we're not in any way, shape or form a denomination and we don't wish to be so that is one of the things that we're just putting out there. If you are looking for a denomination. We're not. Ditch, you know, to quote Dylan, it ain't me, babe. So that's not us, but if you're looking for a network, if you're a stand alone large church, we might be something that would be a blessing to you. And if we are, that's great. And if not, we're not looking to get big.
Andy Miller III
Interesting. Oh yeah.
Shane Bishop
Well, we started. If the five of us were all that we had, that'd be fine. I've I've got any any bigger fit.
Andy Miller III
To grow a mobile movement, you're a movement in yourself like these. Five churches are. Already a movement. OK. Let me ask you this. I'm gonna push you a little bit like you. You had a statement saying ministry, full of grace and truth. Do you explicitly talk about marriage in those in that the statements too, like, OK.
Shane Bishop
#9 we affirm marriage and sexual intimacy are good gifts from God. In keeping with the teachings of Scripture historically and throughout the church, universal, we believe that marriage is the uniting of one man and one woman in a single exclusive union. We believe that God intends faithfulness and marriage and celibacy in singleness that seems clear.
Andy Miller III
That seems pretty clear to me. That's good.
Shane Bishop
For it, yeah.
Andy Miller III
Yeah, I love it. I love it. So it's interesting to, you know, you talk about. Not ordaining so. That and then this is kind of like a maybe a lot of people's first look or the opportunity to even know how large churches mega churches work. And I like how you just define the fact that's a sociological term. I'm sure you. Would be happy if the word Mega Church. Didn't exist anymore. Does that term so frustrating?
Shane Bishop
It's it's become. Know it's like evangelical. It's just the way the. Enemy works. You take a word. Everybody knows no one. Sure what it means, right? Fill it full of negative connotations and you politicize. It I I'm not giving away evangelical and I'm not giving away megachurches. Megachurches just means you reached 2000 people a week. That's a logical term, nothing to get excited about.
Andy Miller III
That's right. So in in in mega churches, then or the ordination normally happens in a congregational way. So it's a congregational system. And is that what the foundry will do is that you'll have elders of some kind, maybe you don't call them that, who come together and they affirm somebody's calling to ministry as somebody in theological education. I'm just curious how. This works like do you do you expect a seminary degree? Maybe even in your local church. Maybe foundry doesn't define what that is, but I'm. I'm curious about that.
Shane Bishop
No, foundries not going to define what that is. That'll be up to individual churches.
Andy Miller III
OK.
Shane Bishop
But in our case we have very, very stringent guideline. It's you can be licensed or you can go on an ordination track. We we fully expect a college degree. We fully expect a seminary degree. We fully expect that there will be psychological's and all of those kind of things. So our vision is not to relax the stringent standards. To enter ordinate. Our our focus is to just allow people going to ministry called to Ministry to be able to use their gifts as God leads them and not have somebody tell them what church they have to go to and all of those kind of things. So yeah, we have clear. Guidelines that are nearly identical to the guidelines we had when we were United Methodist.
Andy Miller III
So so you'll what? What seminaries are you using? And let me just say if you want to talk to about Wesley Biblical Seminary, we'd be glad to be in that conversation.
Shane Bishop
We would be happy to hear more about Wesley Biblical Seminary. You know, we've got people right now. I've got two of my staff, one person just finished a doctorate at Asberry. One person just finished an mdiv at asberry. I've got a lot of friends who I respect very much. Like David Watson, who's at UTS, but there are a lot of really good seminaries around and I've got to the point, Andy, where I'm not even going to recommend somebody goes to a bad seminary. So I've had several people over the years come up to me and say, would you give me a recommendation to go to X seminary?
Andy Miller III
Wow, why you won't write a reference letter?
Shane Bishop
Because I think terrible. I think you're going to come out of there, dechristianize. So no, I will not give you a recommendation to go to that seminary. So we would love to hear, you know, send me some stuff we can talk about it later now that we're new.
Andy Miller III
Yeah, yeah.
Shane Bishop
Best friends so. We're always looking for great seminaries in our tradition. To present the Gospel of Jesus Christ. As we understand it.
Andy Miller III
I think some people might be listening. They might hear it out like and since we've just been 3540 minute best. Friends like I can't help but like.
Shane Bishop
Yeah, right. Right.
Andy Miller III
Ourselves out there.
Shane Bishop
Barbecuing that kind of thing. High school.
Andy Miller III
Yeah, absolutely. But maybe the fear. Is not fear. That's not the right word. Like suspicions. Oh well. Well, OK, now they're kind. They're congregational, they're not denominational. It just sounds like they're just becoming, like, more like a Baptist Church. Or like, just use any seminar or not. Not even have people go through any form of higher education, like certainly the higher education has been a problem within the church at time. So unless it's not. Done well. Well, it can be very problematic. So I I understand some of the concerns there, but we one of the it's exciting moment for us. You know, I'll give you. A little bit WBS story we for some reason in 1980s weren't allowed to be a part of the the university Senate did not approve us, so we have not trained the United method pastors and said people come for us two years. Then go to an approved seminary. We've been able to have doctor Administry students for years, but unfortunately we have mail service and I'm at the church. Brian Collier. You know your your friend who's the orchard.
Shane Bishop
Part of the network.
Speaker
Right.
Andy Miller III
Here he is in Mississippi, you know, couldn't have come to WBS like in in bit ordained but now in. In the meantime, we've served every other kind of evangelical Wesleyan holiness denomination. We're growing. We have more than 300 students right now. We're incredibly diverse. We're fiercely orthodox and biblically centered. And at the same time, now, there's this moment. Now, there's kind of clear opening where you don't have the denominational restrictions, and there's the emerging global method church growing small denominations. So this is an exciting moment for us and I think your movement, and I'm not saying it's yours, Shane, the foundry network. Also represent something exciting. That's why I wanted you have a have you on the podcast is because and it doesn't. I don't. I don't even love referring as Wesley and Christianity like as Christianity that comes from this evangelical tradition of John Wesley, that version of Christianity has a lot to say to the world, and I love the emphasis that you have on evangelism and church growth and. And I think this is an exciting day. I mean, tell me about like how you feel about this movement that stems from Wesley's at in 2023?
Shane Bishop
Well, one of the things that just really strikes me is that, you know, John Wesley launched a movement. I mean, you know what, what happens with movement? You know, I'm an historian by trade as well as a theologian. I've got 2 masters degrees, but my my specialty before I went into ministry was revivalism, 18th century revivalism. The great revival that started in Kentucky and Tennessee was just a movement. It came after the Great Awakening. It was that second great awakening, and it was just a movement of God that happened in camp meetings and and this movement begins to swell. What the Methodists were brilliant at is they they built plumbing for the movement, and they started hospitals, and they started schools and they started. Colleges and they they planted churches, they they built plumbing. Well, what's happened over the years is the waters dried up and now you're spending all your time maintaining the pipes and and that is kind of where it's at for me. The Foundry network gives us an opportunity to do some new thing. Things with vital growing churches who are passionate about evangelism and discipleship. So you've got these like. Minded Christians who are filled with the Holy Spirit, who believe our future is bright and just want to reach people for Jesus. And so if the founding network can help us all, do that. It'll be a. And if it doesn't, good riddance to it. Cares all we wanna do is lean into what the Holy Spirit's doing and be the church in our times and in the decades to come. That's our vision.
Andy Miller III
I love it. I I think it's an exciting moment. Exciting mode for various groups to be able to shed some of the challenges that come from institutionalism. It's just been it. It's so easy. Really perpetuates itself and and then it gets off center. And I think that that's what's happened, unfortunately not like you said, denominations across the board like Methodism has held on for a long time. And I know people are weeping. The fact that this has come and a lot of times it's causing people to realize or even think about what does it mean to be. A part of a Methodist denomination, like what? Why is it? Is it mean? I'm not Baptist, or I'm somewhere liturgically between Roman Catholicism and, like a more free church? No, like, it should be theological. It should be missional. And that's what I think. And it if that's, if that's what it is and not a kind of cultural understanding of like, what, how you fit into your community. I think this makes a really big difference, so that's why I'm excited for this one, because it's that theology of revival. I think that we're going to need for who God's calls to be in this.
Shane Bishop
Next generation and maybe my guess is in your circle as well as mine part of this conflict if you will. Has provided the grist for some really wonderful Wesleyan theology. You know, the notes aren't all yellow now doctor Billy Abraham. I was on a lot of tickets with with him before his untimely passing. You know, there are so many people out there today doing rich. In theology, putting books out, getting that conversation going, and and you and I both know the reformed movement at times takes more out of Wesley than the Wesleyans do. And so I think we have a lot to offer. I think even though this conflict has been inevitable in my mind. And and not ideal under any circumstances. There's still been some good things come of it, and my hope and prayer and and if we're all really honest, the Protestant church. Since its inception, its primary evangelistic strategy has been schism. I mean, I don't know that. You can argue that historically we've added a few with. Campaigns, but for the most part, things split. They grow when they do and and and then it bogs down again. I feel like we're going to be in one of those electric moments for the next decade. To where we could see some great Kingdom, good and maybe even say to. Ourselves for such a time as this.
Andy Miller III
Hey, man. Oh, what a good what a good word. I'm claiming that one myself. And I I feel like that's what we're that's where we are.
Speaker
Me too.
Andy Miller III
It's interesting. Our growth at WBS we've had. 4 semesters straight of of record attendance, enrollment and credits purchase.
Shane Bishop
Forget it.
Andy Miller III
And so like that, that that fits right in that with with that idea is as people are seeking theological training in the midst of this, I think like it's the Orthodox schools that are ready for that revival, they'll be ready to step up to do it. OK. I could go on for a long time. And I I asked only for so much time for you. But I do need. To ask my coach, Jim. Our my podcast is called more to the story and that has a theological meaning too behind it that there's more than just getting saved. There's the holy life, but nevertheless there's probably more to the story of Shane Bishop. What do you know? Is there something you don't get to talk about very much?
Shane Bishop
Well, one of the things that I've been doing in recent years is is writing and I guess as you get older, you know, I always joke with people here in Southern Illinois.
Speaker
OK.
Shane Bishop
You know, when you're when you're young, you you, you're a young buck. You want to survive in the woods. Then you want to be the biggest buck in the woods. Then you want to be the smartest buck in the woods. And now I'm at the point I'm teaching young bucks. I stay alive in the woods. I got it in this victory kind of stage, but God put a couple things on my heart that I'm excited about. I've I've got a story book app that's been out since 2017. It's called love. God love. People don't do dumb crap and it's. A collection of. It's done unbelievably well. I've also got two trail guides. They are verse. By verse walks through entire books of the Bible, and they're just for regular people in the context of just taking somebody on a trail. So we've got a trail guide on James and we have a trail guide on. The Gospel of. John, next year we'll be producing a trail guide on 1st and second Peter and Jude and Boy is that one going to be a ride.
Andy Miller III
Oh man, yeah.
Shane Bishop
And then right now I've got a brand new book coming out next week. It'll come out on February 14th and it is called. That's good news and it's all overcoming.
Andy Miller III
Right.
Shane Bishop
Your fear and and, Sharon, your faith, and so the writing side has taken a lot of time for me. And that's kind of what I've been doing. In addition to the fact we kind of checked out a suburbia about a cabin in the. Middle of the. Woods and I spend a lot of time out there these days.
Andy Miller III
Oh man, I love it. And we talked a little bit about that book at the beginning. Where can people find these? Things Shane like.
Shane Bishop
They're all the normal places. Invite resources is my publisher, Amazon. Kindle Barnes. And no, I mean, all the all the normal places. They are there. But again my my niche. Is is presenting the gospel to regular people. It's not taking simple things and making them complicated to show everybody how smart I think I am. It's about taking complicated things and communicating them to regular people, and what I'm wanting to do with evangelism is, say, you don't need a seminary. Degree to do evangelism, you don't need to be a raging.
Speaker
In the.
Shane Bishop
You just need to be a Christian who can hear the Holy Spirit that honestly cares that people comes to come to Jesus and believes the gospel is good news. That's kind of my approach. I just want to help regular people get closer to Jesus.
Andy Miller III
I love it. Connecting people to Jesus. Now, what is it? I'll just highlight when you mentioned the Jude resource you have. Now I think in this next move of the spirit. The book of. Jude is going to be like the battle plan. So to speak. It is. I have a six week study course that people can get at my website, Andy Miller, the third Andy Miller, i.com on June and I found some interesting to commentator said I actually is his Barkley. You know those little comments. He said. Interesting. Yeah. Oh, for sure. What a great writer. And he said something interesting. He said. I don't know how he got to this statement, so I can't verify. But he said whenever periods of revival come, the book of Jude is quickly discovered. It deals with sin and it deals with sexual sin in a clear way, but also also offers a gospel with hope and gentleness and connected to the Apostolic tradition that faith wants for all the Saints. So I love hearing that you're doing that. I I find it interesting. So many people are starting to emphasize the book of Jude. What a blessing. And second, Peter, of course, they have similar material.
Shane Bishop
Well, you look at some of the material like James, like like Jude, I mean some of this stuff just barely gets in the. Your testament, and I'm convinced that part of the reason I believe that the Holy Spirit inspired the Canon. But I believe that there were pieces that the church fathers at the time didn't feel were unbelievably appropriate then that God made sure gotten the Canon because we need them now.
Andy Miller III
Amen. Amen.
Shane Bishop
Looks like Jude. And James fall into that category, I feel like that that the time for Jude is still coming. And I do believe that it's got some powerful things to say to a countercultural church, which is what we. For now.
Andy Miller III
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, you think about some of those other things that included in the Canon, the 19th century needed fileadmin. You know, and so 18th and 19th century. So who knows what God has in store for. But we're thankful for his revealed word, which is so clear. Jane, thank you so much for your time. It's such a blessing to meet you. My my best friend now. 15 minutes I'm.
Shane Bishop
Yeah, right. It's like been a whole hour, spent more time with you than I have aggregate with some of my relatives over the last 30 years.
Andy Miller III
I'm looking forward. Well, that's a a similar comparisons made for me. Well, thanks for your time, Shane. God bless you. We'll look forward to meet you face to face sometime.
Shane Bishop
Looking forward to hearing more about your seminary and blessings upon your good work. Let's just pray that God uses the likes of us to launch a movement of the Holy Spirit in our time.
Andy Miller III
Why don't you just say that prayer? Say, close this out with that prayer.
Shane Bishop
Almighty God, we thank you so much. For all you've done. For what you're doing. But we're really excited about what you have yet to do. So we pray right now. That you would use us to launch a Holy Spirit movement in our time. Thank you, dear God. For who you are. Thank you that you've given us everything we need to do. Anything you'd ever ask us to do. And we can't wait to see what wonderful things lie ahead in this age. As we proclaim the name of Jesus and we pray it in his strong name, Amen.