One Faith No Longer with Dr. George Yancey

Baylor sociologist George Yancey comes on today’s podcast to talk about the research he and Ashlee Quosigk have done on American religion. In their book, ‘One Faith No Long: The Transformation of Christianity in Red and Blue America’ they observe that progressive and conservative Christianity function as distinct religious groups. I was thankful to have this opportunity to engage Dr. Yancey on this subject.

YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMRKJ87VIhA

Audio – https://andymilleriii.com/media/podcast

Apple Podcasts – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast...

You can find out more about Dr. Yancey at this link - https://www.georgeyancey.com

Today’s episode is brought to you by two sponsors:

Keith Waters and his team at WPO Development do an amazing job helping non-profits and churches through mission planning studies, strategic plans, feasibility studies, and capital campaigns. We are honored to have Keith and WPO on the More to the Story team. You can find out more about them at www.wpodevelopment.com or touch base directly with Keith at Keith.Waters@wpodevelopment.com.

AND

Bill Roberts is a financial advisor, who has been serving the retirement planning and investment needs of individuals, families, non-profits, and churches for 25 years. He is a Certified Financial Planner and accredited investment fiduciary. Bill specializes in working with Salvation Army employees and officers by helping them realize their financial goals. You can find out more about Bill’s business at www.WilliamHRoberts.com

This transcript is generated by zoom and is likely not accurate, for specific information watch or listen to one of the links above.

Welcome to the more to the story podcast i'm so glad to have you with us today thanks for checking this out if you just take a minute.

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Andy Miller III: and subscribe to this if you're watching it on YouTube just hit the subscribe button, or if you find what you hear today helpful.

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Andy Miller III: i'm thrilled today to have on to on the podcast somebody i've admired for a while and their work, and that is Dr George yancey who serves as Professor of sociology at baylor university Dr Nancy welcome to the podcast.

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George Yancey: thanks for having me.

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Andy Miller III: I first, I know I know that your name gets confused with some other people, but I think I first came in touch with one of your.

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Andy Miller III: Work you contributed to when I was in seminary and forgive me if I have this wrong, was it united by faith are you a part of that.

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George Yancey: Book yes, it was.

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Andy Miller III: yeah I, and I follow I really was impressed by that book and maybe we can talk about that, after you talk about your current book too, but um i've been aware of you through through the years and your research.

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Andy Miller III: But this recent book that you have out is fascinating to me it's called one faith, no longer and honestly it's hard.

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Andy Miller III: it's a hard book that.

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Andy Miller III: It to stomach and to read because it's analyzing something I think that we're all aware of, but it's this growing divide between progressive.

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Andy Miller III: And Conservative or sometimes maybe Orthodox Christian witness in the world, and so i'm I I wanted to highlight like the end of your introduction you lay out where things are going, and this isn't a theological study necessarily it's not.

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Andy Miller III: it's like kind of a an indicative study it's saying what is what what has happened, like this is where things are from a sociological perspective.

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Andy Miller III: A lot of times we think about it from a cultural or political perspective and you bring all that in but you say at the very end.

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Andy Miller III: We argue that the distinction between theological theologically progressive Christians and conservative Christians is so great that at once you can't realistically think of them as the same religious group.

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Andy Miller III: they're not no longer one faith can you give us idea for what you're trying to distinguish between these two groups.

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George Yancey: yeah because you know people talk about Christians, as if they're assume monolithic group and so those are Christian nation or Christian Christian that.

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George Yancey: And it's understandable because we're using the same terms, but the distinctions between Christians really is tremendous it's great and.

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George Yancey: As i've run around in circles above conservative and progressive Christians, I just have noticed that they are really talking about different things, and that way they construct meaning.

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George Yancey: is dramatically different, even though they use a lot of the same symbols so that's kind of what I mean is that we have two groups within what's called Christianity today.

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George Yancey: And they are distinct from one another, so much so that the way they would answer what i'll call the question meaning purpose value what is moral or not so distinctive that they're realistically two different groups, they just have the same name at this point time.

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Andy Miller III: wow now i'm curious to this you don't let your cards out very much throughout this study is more or less again just analyzing.

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Andy Miller III: What is like your I can't I can't really figure out where you would land on some of this and I think that's great.

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Andy Miller III: But could, could you tell us a little bit about your story and like how you arrived this this place to even study this in the first place even your own academic and spiritual journey.

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George Yancey: Well, it was interesting because you know originally when I hear i'm aggressive Costa racial issues.

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George Yancey: Okay, and and then about 1012 years ago i've switched because I was interested in issues on religion more worse, and I was you know one things i've done is looked at issues of bias or anti Christian additives.

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George Yancey: Right and to the State hours do I was looking at macadamia I was looking at how I feel about Protestants.

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George Yancey: And I noted that you know I I looked at mainline Protestants and evangelical Protestants.

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George Yancey: And I noticed that, when the mainland process jungles and thought man in ways that was very uttering.

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George Yancey: Whereas the evangelicals even fundamentals positives to not do that as much similar process, they talk about them in ways that was well we just agree them but they're still part of our group.

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George Yancey: interest and it looks at how they rated each other.

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George Yancey: I knew that the mainland parsons honestly honest, we use this word when caught the monitor variable.

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George Yancey: As you scale and how much you like a group, I know that the Miller process we're reading the evangelical for the most part is lower than other non Christian groups.

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George Yancey: Interesting the conservative that, especially in the joker prostitutes ran the mainland Protestants almost as high as they're reading evangelicals In fact I don't think this is different.

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George Yancey: So that fascinating and that got me thinking wow Is it the the main because we always have a how to conserve the past that's how we must reject other grips and when it comes to normal just Christian groups trip.

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George Yancey: yeah but it got me thinking or mailing prostitutes more rejecting process and vice versa, and that got me interested in studying this particular issue, which is conservative and progressive Christians.

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Andy Miller III: So what is it what did you use to define progressive Christians and conservative Christians like what were their questions that would like to make people land in certain areas.

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George Yancey: yeah so we use a theological definition.

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George Yancey: Okay, so you know, obviously there's a religion to theology and politics, but we didn't want to start off with a little definition our definition for conservative Christian was one who believe both of the Bible was the word of God.

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George Yancey: By it's a literal or however, and to Jesus Christ was the only way to salvation.

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George Yancey: Okay cool particular result.

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George Yancey: yeah we both of those none of those other you know wasn't edinson.

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Andy Miller III: yeah that'd be done yet.

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George Yancey: If every 10 yeah so I love from a theological perspective that's probably inadequate, but for our purposes, it surprises, on the other hand.

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George Yancey: If you've denoted about as the word of God good but let the word of God, not little but Eric and you didn't see Jesus Christ, as the other way, you are progressive Christian so of course there is something in the middle, but that's kind of how we can find both groups.

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Andy Miller III: So with those distinctions then you're you're saying that the data suggests that, because they have this different worldview, all together, that it's not a can't really sociologically be classified as the same religion.

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George Yancey: Right yeah that's already that's not the same religion.

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Andy Miller III: So what else, what else lead to set because I imagine that politics enters into this discussion, I now have you read the book to understand like where combined love for you to unfold that for my audience here, like some of these other things, so you have.

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Andy Miller III: These theological distinction so.

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Andy Miller III: What makes you different, but then the politics seems to follow as well.

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George Yancey: Right, so you know, as it concerns the politics at first honestly when I did the quantitative stuff I thought okay progressive Christians they're in the politics or Krishna into large theology.

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George Yancey: But when we did qualitative work it wasn't that clear cut.

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George Yancey: What is the politics matters and, in fact.

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George Yancey: In all honesty, you know qualitatively and quantitatively politics marriage more from aggressive Christian conservative Christians.

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George Yancey: But.

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George Yancey: The way it wasn't that progressive crystal going alright a progressive political ideology we're worshiping that.

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George Yancey: What was was a date value what we call social justice issues so things that is inclusion things such as quality these sort of general values.

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George Yancey: and, generally speaking, they found these values more readily and progressive politics politics, so it was the pollock was a means to an end, it wasn't in itself.

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George Yancey: Back to forecast certain Christians, the theological beliefs wasn't in itself that either you believe Jesus crisis this salvation when some always on vacation or you don't.

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George Yancey: So that was it itself in a way that part is was not from Chris Christian so politics matters, but not quite the way than I originally thought.

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Andy Miller III: Interest now you also make in the in Chapter three you talk about the difference in how they handle legislation.

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Andy Miller III: To like there's like.

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Andy Miller III: So politics matters, how you live things out but there's also the sense that what evangelicals do with their beliefs legislatively is different from the way that progressive Christians do that.

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George Yancey: Is that right so right and so that's the chapter, where I was curious you know, because we know that people who are theological continue to progress and feel delighted because.

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George Yancey: What happens like issues when they disagree with their base to political base, and so I want to look at pro life on abortion.

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George Yancey: yeah there's a Christians.

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George Yancey: and pro immigration reform.

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Andy Miller III: Questions sure.

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George Yancey: And what was interesting is that way because many Christians talk about politics ways are contrary to their political base, there are more aggressive aggressive questions.

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George Yancey: you're more willing to say we need to change laws and morally.

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George Yancey: And they end in keeping with their their their sort of origin morality, they use scripture to justify their political positions.

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George Yancey: Progressive Christians, while they will critique other progressive on abortion do not tend to call for legal changes and Lester critique is a little bit more careful.

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George Yancey: and partly, I think, is that while politics is not what they worship, they value their political allies more than conservative Christians.

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George Yancey: Christians, if they believe that spiritually this is wrong, then they will go kids there are our.

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George Yancey: Christian Christians are more careful to keep their couple hour, and so they will condemn abortion, they will say it's wrong they will question.

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George Yancey: But only a couple of them actually said we should change the law.

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George Yancey: hmm I think almost every concert Christian, who was for visual for one legal changes.

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George Yancey: wow yeah so the way they look at politics, what to do is very different.

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Andy Miller III: And so, this is again like defining the fact that these end up being like two different groups they're.

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Andy Miller III: they're functioning in in two different ways, now, some of you are already kind of ahead of me, probably people are listening are like well, what does this mean for like.

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Andy Miller III: groups where there's a distinction and denominations, and I want, I want to get to that, but about like how this works with end denominations because.

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Andy Miller III: that's something you break down to but before I get there i'm afraid i'm going to forget, because this dovetails with your work on race that it seems like almost.

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Andy Miller III: Any low now to think about the distinction, like the bebbington quadrilateral and i'm kind of a person emphasizes 19th century and my own research and so badminton is a guy who.

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Andy Miller III: studied nonconformity nonconformity and England and so i'm really I really liked badminton a lot and found him to be so helpful and I think he was probably even surprised that this these ways that he described evangelicalism became the.

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Andy Miller III: theological system that people you know attach this quadrilateral to his name, but if you were to take those points or even the two points you have.

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Andy Miller III: The African American churches, which Wesley biblical seminary interesting enough, the Association of theological schools his toes were the most racially balanced school seminary in the country with 60% minority students 40%.

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Andy Miller III: White and so it's it's interesting like we end up serving denominations that are all across all across the board.

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Andy Miller III: And what I will find people come to us in part minority students, particularly event from the black tradition, will come because they know that we are we hold to those like kinda like the two points you said.

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Andy Miller III: But the same time, there might still be distinction and how that's lived out like there wouldn't be the same.

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Andy Miller III: there's just other they they wouldn't identify sometimes as I evangelicals those nominations, I feel like i'm not expressing this very well, but I think you might know where i'm going like it seems like in African American churches, while they might line up theologically on the political.

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George Yancey: Side you'll.

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Andy Miller III: Be someplace else.

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George Yancey: yeah you're right, you know I think you look at a lot of black traditions, they vote for democrats, but the launch of the conservative.

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George Yancey: I will say, and this is kind of interesting while they will vote for democrats they vote for democrats on for different reasons than, say, a white progressive Christian world.

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George Yancey: Okay, and.

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George Yancey: And I think that that as as a one keys what's happening and so.

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George Yancey: They don't tend to accept some of the notions of.

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George Yancey: Oh well, relativism that you might find amongst some white progressive Christians.

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George Yancey: right that they're not as ear to say that everyone is saying as you'll find in white progressive Christians, so they.

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George Yancey: So they don't really fit well with them, but they look the same candidate other concerned about racial issues racial justice is with Dr the locker room, and so it may be that i'm looking at is it advisable whitefish.

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George Yancey: And where was where was it black Christians, find themselves.

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George Yancey: is an interesting question, I think the rest up and work for the research I can't give you a real good answer right now, because that was the focus of our study.

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George Yancey: I think that it is divided relatively more pronounced more people understand it more than interesting just a little side note.

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George Yancey: yeah well, it was a small.

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George Yancey: There actually was a movement among African Americans towards Republican Party in the last election.

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George Yancey: Right, so it is possible.

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George Yancey: Depending on the candidate I think they're using more of a movement, and you know in 2022 24 which might mean that those who are in a conservative Christian tradition, are moving towards it gets.

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George Yancey: interesting.

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George Yancey: spills yeah it was good, you are super interesting.

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Andy Miller III: And maybe i'm wrong and you had some data on this to talking about election trends and are voting trends, I found that so fascinating to so, but even Donald trump and i'm trying not to hopefully people will just say a name doesn't mean i'm being political.

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Andy Miller III: doubled in it, then, though he had very low numbers, with the African Americans support rights, maybe it's easy to double when it's so low, but yet still increased significant is that the type of thing you're seeing across the board, more than just for Donald trump like there was.

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George Yancey: yeah I mean once yeah I don't want to get into specifics, because you've already said, Donald trump.

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yeah.

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George Yancey: I wonder, and of course I can't know this, I wonder if they've been one of movement trump wasn't at the head of the tickets.

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George Yancey: Right, you know because I do think there's some issues that are resonating that Americans, and I think that some of the more fearful of trump now be able to say they should have been aren't fun i'm just saying that the procession.

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George Yancey: And so I do wonder whether it open more movement.

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George Yancey: don't take a penny wise.

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George Yancey: And yeah if he's not in 2024 they will answer that question.

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Andy Miller III: Interesting now it to the dominant denominational question what you also highlight is that what we see happening with this distinction between progressive and conservative Christians.

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Andy Miller III: Is isn't limited to denominations and and and I really appreciate, in the first chapter you're outlining of the history of these distinctions, and you, you highlight some of my books in the most major.

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Andy Miller III: You know, studies and things have happened, so I feel like it's very thorough and like a historical theologian were like it a lot like I think you've done a great job with that so like that, but as you've got there you end up having this place.

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Andy Miller III: Where there is this distinction that has now you're talking about sociologically move beyond the old lines of the nominations that is that the case.

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George Yancey: yeah so you know, like 100 years ago we're staying religion Christianity religion denominations with an incredibly important point there they were strong for which Christian store that work themselves, and you know that there wasn't too much traditions.

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George Yancey: Around I think around the 1970s or 80s, maybe 1990s subscribes me in the right, like the nominations, not as important to us to be.

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George Yancey: we're not identify the damage, because I see the rise as a non denominational churches inter inter denominational churches and people started to damage your hot little bit more, you know within 10 tradition and so with any nominations, you have good service in a progressive tradition.

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George Yancey: sure that that's fine a noun.

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George Yancey: And so what that means to me is that another way in which I could look at progressive as a Christian was denominational identity, I felt that that was not that useful, given that denomination identity has less salience to your average Christian today.

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Andy Miller III: Right that's that's the case in like what a lot of the content on my podcast in the past has been connected to my denomination.

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Andy Miller III: Which isn't the Salvation Army.

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Andy Miller III: And it's a very strange, the real a lot of people who've tried to sociologically analyze what we are.

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Andy Miller III: And it is a weird day he's like are we a.

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Andy Miller III: church sect, are we like, how do we fit in with this category is, are we a church.

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Andy Miller III: But one thing that's unique about the Salvation Army from a policy standpoint is that our governance model is that we are.

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Andy Miller III: National denomination the hundred and 33 countries globally so already we have huge distinctions amongst how we identify, but the question of sexuality, has come up maybe not with the same fierceness that it has with something I mentioned that we haven't divided.

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Andy Miller III: Yang i'm sorry to say, like say that word but, whereas other denominations have divided for the.

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George Yancey: Last three.

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Andy Miller III: years but it's expressing itself now particularly like in with country to country, so Western Europe, Australia, Canada there's more others like an emphasis towards embracing.

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Andy Miller III: Some before yeah yeah that's right but it's not it's not it's cautious and the international leadership is doing its best, I think the whole thing together, but I think.

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Andy Miller III: In light of these other things that you're saying that the typical fault lines are are coming there that are between these other questions of.

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Andy Miller III: The scripture being the word of God Jesus being the way that people are saved, so I see this happening in my denomination hey we want to comment on that.

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George Yancey: yeah I mean I don't know enough about citizens in the Salvation Army.

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George Yancey: yeah.

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George Yancey: Right, I will say that sexuality is interesting issue because it allows both sides to express themselves in that you know alright So what do we do with same sex attraction same sex sexuality that's what.

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George Yancey: If you're progressing Christian with these with these are humans in ethic of social justice.

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George Yancey: Are you value is tolerance and inclusion.

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George Yancey: So you use that to interpret what you do with it so it's not that you discard the Bible completely you interpret the Bible, in light of your values of inclusion and tolerance and according to those values which are the but now the Bible to water, the thurman stands.

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George Yancey: right if you're a conservative Christian it's not that you're intolerant or no, no, no.

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George Yancey: You don't have to be exactly like you will not be fair, but that tolerance is taint your mind by the scriptures so when it comes to the issue of sexuality.

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George Yancey: What do you do you go to the scriptures to use your interpretation of that and for most people their interpretation of the scriptures in the desert tradition is that this is wrong.

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George Yancey: and therefore it is sinful so that is an interesting issue, by which we can sort of distinguish how progress efficient will come at these issues, I suppose, how Christian.

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Andy Miller III: Right what what I found is that it's not it says the sexuality is the way into the discussion.

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Andy Miller III: For many people.

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Andy Miller III: And what i've what i've done and i've.

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Andy Miller III: tried to have conversations with with folks and even on this podcast to, and I have one that hopefully will come out soon.

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Andy Miller III: That I go through Salvation Army has a article articles of faith that everybody agrees to at some point in their life if they become what's called a member or soldier in the Salvation Army.

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Andy Miller III: And I went through all of those statements and I could say them in five minutes like it's pretty quick.

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Andy Miller III: But if I went through it there's classical.

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Andy Miller III: evangelical doctrines in the western tradition, particularly But what I find is I work through them if there's 11 of those statements, probably, half of them aren't affirmed by those who would be LGBT Q affirming.

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Andy Miller III: And then the same thing is true with the other statements that that we'd have.

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Andy Miller III: what's what I can't quite get my finger on Maybe you can help me it's like people are so drawn to the group.

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Andy Miller III: itself like that's their their home, even though they don't affirm what they what the articles are that define the group it's like they still want to be a part of it.

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Andy Miller III: And I imagine this is happening in other denominations as well across Christianity, I think it's probably connected to the conflict that you articulate.

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George Yancey: yeah there's probably you know there's revenue.

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George Yancey: residual denominational identity issues is happening so you grew up in, sadly, you know church of Christ and.

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George Yancey: You want to you know that, for your identity any of your beliefs change, you will tend to join those churches so they're probably some of that this is that we, we now know that way in which people have to find their values is a lot less to do them nations do.

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Andy Miller III: It for.

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Andy Miller III: You also in the sixth chapter you do it real analysis of the way that.

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Andy Miller III: Progressive Christians, look at Jesus Jesus and and, like the distinctions that people have in how they understand Jesus was a lot like it's a popular thing to say, and I tried to be like this isn't exactly a.

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Andy Miller III: Dramatic or Martin Luther type of moment but I noticed, nobody on Twitter is saying, like their first line they're not saying i'm a Christian know may say i'm a Jesus follower right it's a.

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Andy Miller III: Ever it's I, I decided i'm going to say i'm just a straight up Christian right but, but even that title is this thing.

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Andy Miller III: So the way liberal progressive Christianity and conservative Christianity talk about Jesus that's distinct to and you analyze that.

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Andy Miller III: He talked to us about that a little bit.

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George Yancey: yeah so Christians Jesus is the son of God Jesus is you know, is part of God, you know how it works out.

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Andy Miller III: yeah.

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George Yancey: she'd be deified as Christians greatly researches.

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George Yancey: The greenery specialism as a teacher and some will say he's the son of God so.

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Andy Miller III: This is back right.

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George Yancey: we're not talking about people who are atheists.

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Andy Miller III: Right fishing.

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George Yancey: But.

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George Yancey: Just like the Bible is to be respected Jesus respected.

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George Yancey: But the notion of this this notion of the story of personal relationship dynamic, then, then you would normally find a look at Christians and more of that he's this great model for us to fall.

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On the bike.

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George Yancey: And so that's kind of you know.

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George Yancey: it's a difference that emerges out of these different perspectives on the nature of what Christianity is is it is it the one true religion or and the Bible is the Holy arbiter of that religion, or is it not, it was Christmas it's not.

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hmm.

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Andy Miller III: So one of the things to help me with was thinking about how these how both groups see each other.

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Andy Miller III: And that was helpful up and again again it's kind of hard to read at times but it's a, but I think what it's doing is is laying out probably what the real experience that many people have on both sides, so.

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Andy Miller III: How is it that conservative Christians and you've addressed this a little bit already but trying to give some like clay give some focus to it, how is it that conservative Christians view progressive Christians.

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George Yancey: They tend to, of course.

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George Yancey: Yes, this is.

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George Yancey: You know i'm sure, everything is a Christian does this person with the most.

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George Yancey: cases they tend to see progress Christians there's a different kind of question that they hand us agree with.

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George Yancey: A little bit weaker question there they're not as strong but they're still in the fold.

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George Yancey: So, so they disagree with progressive Christians but they they still because the Prince of Christians are what color in group okay they're still with us it's like different questions so as i'm concerned christmasy.

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George Yancey: Progressive Christians we're going to consider Christians.

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George Yancey: They they.

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George Yancey: are much harder on certifications.

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George Yancey: They seek or some Christians as intolerant sometimes bigoted sometimes ignorant.

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George Yancey: They generally don't want much to do with them.

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George Yancey: And they generally distance themselves from.

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George Yancey: And part of this may be that they both share the term Christian, but they have these templates progressive Christians know better, the differences between certain questions in themselves and the other way around.

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George Yancey: Okay, efficient.

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George Yancey: You know, they tend to think well there's not much different than you know we work a little differently day they've got guys they're infants that we've done or something like that.

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Andy Miller III: Right sure.

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George Yancey: They don't appreciate just the schism that's there, and this is one reason why persecutions, have a lot of golf courses and vice versa.

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Andy Miller III: hmm So the idea of the in group is that, like a term that's often uses it sociological studies.

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George Yancey: pretty much yes.

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Andy Miller III: So that the idea is like a conservative Christians tend to see progressive Christians as being a part of the group, and they.

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Andy Miller III: The distinctions you're saying like they they don't values and on the other side and that's probably like progressive Christians are much.

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Andy Miller III: More demeaning at times are separating themselves now a call Of course this isn't i'm not saying if you're a progressive Christian your listeners I guess i'm not that anecdotally I know exception to all of these things, certainly, but.

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Andy Miller III: But on the stats as a whole that's where we're saying that this distinction is.

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Andy Miller III: You bring up this term, do you want to come on that sorry.

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George Yancey: No, no, I mean I think that's good.

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Andy Miller III: i'm trying to make it on make sure I got the the term Christian, this is the one this could be.

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Andy Miller III: Will if these are two different religions sociologically.

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Andy Miller III: what's going to happen with the term Christian, I know I know i'm asking you now.

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Andy Miller III: To do something different.

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Andy Miller III: outside their study but I can't help but go there and i'm curious if if you have any thoughts on that.

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George Yancey: yeah and, of course, you know.

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George Yancey: My thoughts are my arm addictions, and I don't claim to have to get the prophecies so for what they are.

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George Yancey: I think that, because they're growing and their numbers, or at least stable as percent of the population, whereas the recipes are not officially conservative Christians will be will take on the label of Christian Christians, much more aggressive Christian.

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Okay.

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George Yancey: And I think that will definitely be more delineation as to the two different types of religious movements, so that would be my yes or no, the one thing we're going to do a quote for them is that they tend to be more positions of cultural power.

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George Yancey: Okay, so they may be a hold on this title of war that way, but, as opposed to just get tired of being associated with light and those will create intelligence.

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Andy Miller III: So you think that that's what all eventually if it stays on this track.

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Andy Miller III: it'll just create a different way to describe so so, for instance, within the United methodism the split that's coming there from a group that's called the Western coven association is birthing a group called the global Methodist church, whereas the.

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Andy Miller III: The one of the liberal versions that's coming about progressive versions called like I think it's called the lip liberation connection and it uses the men old English spelling.

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Andy Miller III: So, like those are pretty different different ideas.

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Andy Miller III: I don't I don't think either is giving up.

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Andy Miller III: The term Christian yet, but it seems like that's what your study points sue's that gets gonna have to get to a place where we say this is, for the sake of like we were existing within different worldviews.

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yeah.

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George Yancey: yeah I feel get in there, how close up it looks you know the question you know you go a little bit of how Buddhism Hinduism this is separate from each other.

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George Yancey: Right happen somewhat like bad or will it be a more.

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George Yancey: abrupt undertaking I you know I can't answer those questions, but those are interested courses as.

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George Yancey: yeah do you think that this Christian nation is.

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George Yancey: not sustainable.

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George Yancey: right because they're Christians or event growing staying steady records are shrinking I think at some point in the United States and some point there's going to be some.

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George Yancey: effort to each other.

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Andy Miller III: Man you got 32 is the second hand you brought up like the nature of the growth of Conservative Christianity and the decline of mainline Christianity progressive Christianity, this is an interesting to me and.

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Andy Miller III: I may be missed this in your book, but is there data to show that this is my anecdotal observation.

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George Yancey: than.

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Andy Miller III: It seems that people who have moved towards a progressive Christianity come from evangelical Christianity, like they they're they're there and even gel Christianity and then they get kind of evangelize.

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Andy Miller III: I would say in reverse to progressive agenda and some of them it's like that's a gateway drug sometimes to atheism and.

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Andy Miller III: So it but is that is it I don't see progressive Christians, bringing in a press good progressive Christian just bringing in non Christians, so to speak.

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George Yancey: Right.

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Andy Miller III: Is it as their data for that or that.

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George Yancey: Any data that per se.

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George Yancey: Because the Christians, though it besides besides proselytizing so they're not likely to go to an atheist, we tried to convince them to join them.

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George Yancey: Right, so it is are joining versus large nurses are choosing to do that.

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Andy Miller III: yeah so me just it just a pure fact like if you don't think people need to be saved, why would you want to invite them to your church.

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yeah.

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Andy Miller III: I remember being on a panel one time at a Community college and I was representing evangelical Christianity and my Salvation Army uniform there.

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Andy Miller III: And I realized that I was the only person on the panel who actually I went ahead and said it like I actually would like for everybody else on this panel to become a Christian.

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Andy Miller III: yeah like that's part of like what what I firm the scripture that's my desire now i'm not i'm still here in a civil dialogue, but I asked my theology is such that I believe that I want everybody to be a Christian.

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Andy Miller III: um.

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Andy Miller III: Go ahead, if you like to comment on.

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Andy Miller III: them i'm i'm interested to like one thing helped me with with your other work and i've heard this more through interviews with you, but because I I haven't.

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Andy Miller III: I haven't read all of your works on race i've just kind of dabbled a little bit you emphasize, and I wonder if there's a perspective for this for the liberal liberal conservative divide.

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Andy Miller III: Within racial conversations.

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Andy Miller III: That concept of of mutual obligation.

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Andy Miller III: yeah it could you talk about like how you use that in talking about race and then maybe we can use as a way to transition to think about how conservatives and liberals can communicate.

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George Yancey: Sure, so clouded conversations or or responsibility approach is that everyone is responsible for intrinsic power station, for not just talking about listening.

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George Yancey: For learning how to communicate effectively how to listen well active listening and, at the end, the day, then, once we see the perspective from from a lot of different.

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George Yancey: stakeholders, we can find a solution that maximize everyone everyone wants so when when when solutions, the national that's where it's about.

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George Yancey: clarify here, yes, but only if conservative Christians and progressive Christians seeing need to produce such as though they don't see in such as you know, i'm.

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Andy Miller III: In the racial discussion like what you'd like to see is like people to still hold these values like say if it's.

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Andy Miller III: related to issues and systemic racism or like like they come together, but yet to recognize that there's importance in hearing one another and listening and trying to come up with common solutions.

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Andy Miller III: Is that a good summary like.

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George Yancey: This that's someone yeah you're talking past each other, we try to get people to come aboard our ideas and that, at the dealer their ideas.

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George Yancey: And then are basically we can have people are more we can get what we want, politically, legally, what have you, but of course that doesn't that doesn't work, because if you do that.

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George Yancey: Then the other side is going to consciously plot to sabotage it so that's why you know there's a claim for sessions to create solutions is.

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Andy Miller III: How i'm here i'm curious where things are going, I know i'm asking i'm not asking you to progress.

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Andy Miller III: To provide like analysis of where the focus is going to be in the future, but that's part of like what i'm wondering is like I think what you've hit on is exactly where we are that we've we have two different religions and I, the first place, I heard, this was a gratia of Gresham nation.

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Andy Miller III: it's Saturday by by talking about like if people don't from the resurrection or the authority of scripture really like you, you don't just have to denominations, but you have different different religions, and that was.

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Andy Miller III: Many years ago that he said that so I started i've been hesitant to say it, because it almost sounds like it is a conversation stopper.

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Andy Miller III: But I do think it's true, I think I think that's it would that even bringing that up that we, we see that we see the world differently, be a part of that type of conversation.

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George Yancey: yeah so you're gonna understand that when you have a productive conversation so more because you didn't fit more stereotype on them here in the mouth.

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George Yancey: And an active listening you're able to articulate what they believe in a way, so yes that's what I believe and that's going to be different from the source stereotype to put on those who disagree with mm hmm.

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Andy Miller III: Well i'm curious to um what what are some other things you're you're working on now, I have a you have this book has come out that's articulator well, a lot of us have felt is this Is this something you're going to keep studying the nature of this divide.

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George Yancey: yeah I am i'm saying.

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George Yancey: And i'm you know I do want do some research to see whether or not o'clock conversations, is a good way to heal this divide and some of the middle try and find that research right now.

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George Yancey: But I do think that that this sort of schism the sort of polarization to the heart of why we have such racial problems.

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Andy Miller III: yeah is there in in you have a book coming out and this that and the ratio side of this, can you tell us about that project I know it's different from the.

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Andy Miller III: This.

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George Yancey: we're talking about your racial division and you know those are my 2006 for our breathing world more research on while i'm going to discuss theological aspects rotating that one chapter, so you can do in order to say skip the theological chapter with the rest.

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Okay.

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George Yancey: You know, times have changed since my first book is written 2006 so so sometimes it's okay to change and some just do that, I also wanted to try started moving away from what we're doing today, which is now working towards a new, which is this word cloud and conversations.

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Andy Miller III: Oh, that is great i'm excited for that they come around now back to the the The first way I was introduced to you, united by faith.

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Andy Miller III: yeah that book had an idea and I know it's that's a long time ago, but i'm curious of like i've seen that that book was inspiring to me to see a multiracial congregations and answer to the problems.

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Andy Miller III: of race and racial tensions.

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Andy Miller III: It but i've and i've been in in the in the Salvation Army in the United States, by and large, is multiracial at the ground grassroots root level.

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Andy Miller III: it's different when you get people in leadership and that ends up changing like dynamics there's a lot involved there but.

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Andy Miller III: i've also i've also known like that that was an emphasis in the early 2000s that maybe is moved away from that now, in light of like cultural needs that people are like there, there are churches that combined.

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Andy Miller III: And then combined for five to 10 years have separate that's anecdotal i'd be curious in your reflections on.

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Andy Miller III: united by faith, now that book, you know by faith 20 years later.

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George Yancey: yeah I mean I was fortunate to work on that project are the ones that book because I wasn't ahead author, the author was a theologian, and so that was a lot of what you and.

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George Yancey: Your logical.

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George Yancey: yeah we're.

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George Yancey: I mean we we do bring in a social scientist some of the research ankle but it's a little bit more theological.

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George Yancey: When we wrote that book.

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George Yancey: it's not that people were a good, it was a churches, so there weren't that many out there and people didn't know what to do in order to produce still or they don't want to what do.

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George Yancey: I need storage is different, today, while they're still not enough, from my point of view there's a lot more out there and yeah more more people who are experiencing handling these different cultures, so you know it is, it is affordable going to stay.

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George Yancey: i'm not sure it's aged well, simply because.

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George Yancey: We have more acceptable use of interest with within the body of Christ.

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Andy Miller III: yeah it seems like there is a.

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Andy Miller III: Like i'll say like.

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Andy Miller III: example for me i'll try i'm teaching preaching.

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Andy Miller III: This semester.

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Andy Miller III: And like I said we're.

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Andy Miller III: One of the association Theological School so says we're one of the most balanced that are the most balanced school association theological schools, so in my class I have people who are in all white.

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Andy Miller III: Denominations and all black animations.

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Andy Miller III: And so.

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Andy Miller III: i'm figuring out like i'm making sure that I have resources available for each one and it's caused me to reflect and then I then come from a denomination that has has a mix is multiracial.

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Andy Miller III: But yeah i'm i'm aware of the different needs that are there and, like the book that came before united by faith divided by faith.

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Andy Miller III: highlighted that it's a tragedy, the.

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Andy Miller III: Now Sunday morning is the most segregated hour in the in the in the country.

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Andy Miller III: So i'm not i'm not always sure that that's.

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Andy Miller III: I don't know help me here i've heard it guys Africa America Mitch it like always a bad thing, like i'm thankful for my students that are come from African American traditions and what they can bring to white sands and vice versa.

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George Yancey: Yes, in the black tradition, the Church was the Center of cultural power for one point, and so much more social position.

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George Yancey: And for some African Americans, the Church is a way in which they can express their their original long position area so.

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George Yancey: So I think there's going to be some resistance among African Americans to also show conservation not mode on maybe even on most but that tradition is there the way it's really is not good for you.

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Andy Miller III: hmm.

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George Yancey: So here's what you everybody understand about Church is it was the place in which our political leaders to go it's a place of which we organize it was a credit reporting place right.

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Andy Miller III: Right and if we were to say, we all need a combined right now, we would was that cultural legacy.

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George Yancey: yeah I I was even though i'm asking I was having a struggle against him his cultural labels, especially for the smaller groups.

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Andy Miller III: Cultural maintenance helped me understand what that means.

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George Yancey: To be able to header culture and keep going on.

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George Yancey: Okay, so so it says you don't lose your culture.

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George Yancey: People color a word culture Native Americans were fortunate kids boarding schools kiss came back and they no longer are culturally that Americans so there's that fear that's out there.

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George Yancey: Right people car and so that would be I think a simple reason to open multiple churches, I still did the positive vast Vegas, but I can send it.

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Andy Miller III: yeah have you participated and multiracial church yourself.

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George Yancey: Is that a part of your exposure one right now, yes.

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Andy Miller III: Okay yeah and so you just see the positives in that in your own personal experience that.

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George Yancey: Well, I don't just see the positive I didn't see last.

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Andy Miller III: holiday I say just sorry yeah.

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George Yancey: Well, you did.

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George Yancey: It would be me okay so.

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Andy Miller III: Okay that's good i'm sure I make those mistakes.

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George Yancey: Those type of mistakes a lot.

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Andy Miller III: So i'm glad i'm really glad to hear that emphasis has helped me have, I think a little bit of that's like the cultural maintenance idea that's what's behind.

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Andy Miller III: The Liberal conservative divide in the Salvation Army is people want to stay in, because the Salvation Army has to form itself as a distinct culture almost.

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Andy Miller III: As a nation like we wear uniforms there's flags there's a certain type of music and how we define ourselves is like okay well I don't affirm any the theology anymore, but this is my culture.

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Andy Miller III: This is my my people, this is my my end group.

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George Yancey: mm hmm yeah I get that I get that so the missionary may have a strong knowledge why didn't do the dishes right now, then they keep them together a little bit longer.

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Andy Miller III: Right well is interesting place to see, particularly as other denominations make make switches and like this becomes more nuances people live out their.

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Andy Miller III: work.

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Andy Miller III: Well it's been so great to have time with you i've.

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Andy Miller III: heard of you, for a long time now and it's helped me and it like your concept of mutual obligations and conversation has been it's been really helpful to me as we've worked through this time, particularly in the last two years, so thank you for your scholarship and your work.

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George Yancey: Well, thank you.

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Andy Miller III: I did this podcast is called more to the story and I tried to ask a question, to see if there's something that's a beyond somebody academic work are there.

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Andy Miller III: Other things that are on the talk about is there, more to the story of Georgia and see that we haven't heard that people don't normally hear.

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George Yancey: whoo uh you know i've gotten into cycling on i'm not a maniac about it and three very young kids.

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George Yancey: Okay young boys, and so they have a lot of my time, but this morning, you know, I was able to do some cycling and you know I find for me as i've gotten older and my knees, allow me to run or play basketball anymore that that cyclists just the right speed.

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George Yancey: Okay car.

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George Yancey: Where they're exploring I rent buy some houses and it's holiday decorations we are a car you're going too fast kissing your walk in you know it's like you're walking.

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George Yancey: The aggregate.

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George Yancey: But to me seconds just or I speak to like enjoy that or other things I see it, move on.

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George Yancey: Oh so yeah so so that's been a little bit more to my store.

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Andy Miller III: How old are your boys.

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George Yancey: Six four and three.

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Andy Miller III: wow you are in the heart of it right now.

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George Yancey: I am.

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Andy Miller III: wow I have two boys 14 and 12 and yeah and then, I have a girl who's 10 just north of us here at West a biblical summer we'll have to have you come at some point we have the nexus traced trail, which is a very sought after a bike trail.

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Andy Miller III: That goes on from nashville.

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Andy Miller III: down here to Mississippi so.

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Andy Miller III: Come sometime well Thank you so much for your time and come into this podcast and can tell people about where they could find out more about you and this work and and if they want to explore some more of your research where can they find that.

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George Yancey: Well, my website is www georgie and see all one word calm surely for yancey pretty he can see the wide, because this is George yes yeah out there and he's a nice guy but we don't you know we're not the same person.

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hahaha.

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Andy Miller III: Oh yeah and of course yeah be sure you have a Philip yancey to another.

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George Yancey: that's another George Nancy who is in psychology but we don't get confused because he's white in the study rates.

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George Yancey: Whereas the other one I can use it.

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George Yancey: As an African American mistakes he's a philosopher.

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Andy Miller III: wow i'm sure, have you have you all met face to face yet.

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George Yancey: No i'm loving the phone we have enough time I did he is emails.

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Andy Miller III: Right well i'm Andy Miller, the third and I have my oldest son's The fourth and we're all all been in the Salvation Army and then there's another Andy but I get i'm 40 and a lot of emails will say that, so I understand how that works.

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Andy Miller III: yeah Thank you again for your time, Dr Nancy.

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George Yancey: Thank you God bless.