Progressive vs. Conservative Salvationism: A Conversation
January 6 2022
In our divided times, conversations between people who disagree are important. Today’s podcast is a 90-minute conversation with Chick Yuill on human sexuality and the church. At a few times in this conversation, we wondered if “the honorable thing to do” for our denomination is to “part ways.” Nevertheless, even an amicable separation comes through respectful conversations like this. You won’t find a knock-down-drag-out debate here, but honest dialogue between people who disagree. Here are the links:
YouTube – https://youtu.be/pTF1r4FMTwQ
Audio Podcast – https://andymilleriii.com/media/podcast
Apple Podcasts – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-to-the-story-with-dr-andy-miller/id1569988895?uo=4
A FREE RESOURCE FOR MINISTRY – By signing up for my email list, you can get a four-page PDF document - A Guide for Exegetical Preparation for Preaching and Teaching. Sign up here.
Last week I published a helpful conversation with apologist Dr. Frank Turek. Among other topics, we discussed his book Stealing from God. He has developed strategies for defending the faith that will be helpful to you. Find those links here:
YouTube – https://youtu.be/fMQlY9_Bnhc
Audio Podcast – https://andymilleriii.com/media/podcast
Apple Podcasts – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-to-the-story-with-dr-andy-miller/id1569988895?uo=4
For context for this conversation find my first response to Chick here - https://youtu.be/DBkeVysbR0g
Today’s episode is brought to you by two sponsors:
Bill Roberts is a financial advisor, who has been serving the retirement planning and investment needs of individuals, families, non-profits, and churches for 25 years. He is a Certified Financial Planner and accredited investment fiduciary. Bill specializes in working with Salvation Army employees and officers by helping them realize their financial goals. You can find out more about Bill’s business at www.WilliamHRoberts.com
Wesley Biblical Seminary - Interested in getting going deeper in your faith, check out our certificate programs, B.A., M.A.s, M.Div., and D.Min degrees. You will study with world-class faculty and the most racially diverse student body in the country. www.wbs.edu
This transcript communicates a basic flow of the podcast.For specific information contact Andy at AndyMilleriii.com
Welcome to the more to the story podcast i'm so glad that you've come along I have been looking forward to this conversation day and I do highlight.
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Andy Miller III: conversation now some of you are highly anticipating a knock down drag out debate where somebody destroys somebody else well, that is not what's going to happen here and i'm really glad to have an opportunity to have a charitable.
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Andy Miller III: Honest conversation with the goal of producing clarity that's the that's The focus here and so i'm delighted to have on the podcast with me.
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Andy Miller III: chick you'll who we had a little bit of dialogue, a couple of weeks ago where I responded to something that he presented, and then we have a conversation together.
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Andy Miller III: And after that conversation, together, we felt like well, should we have a formal debate, but I think we got along so well check that we just felt like let's just have a conversation is the think that's how it went.
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chick: We developed a bromance straight away.
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chick: yeah i'm very happy for good good I don't mean boisterous debate either, but but good conversation is best of all.
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Andy Miller III: Right and i'm hopeful that this will be a model for people who have differences, so that we can demonstrate the way we can be charitable and kind and respectful.
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Andy Miller III: While we disagree and so some of you might know kind of in the way that we've built up to this that.
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Andy Miller III: chick takes an affirming position on human sexuality and I take a historic biblical position now i'm not again, you might people might be critical of even just using those language like so.
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Andy Miller III: there's a way that i'm affirming and there's a way that chicks definitely biblical so you'll have to just excuse us for and be charitable towards us with some of the language that we use.
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Andy Miller III: by proxy but i'm really thankful for an opportunity, just for clear conversation.
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Andy Miller III: and an opportunity for us just to understand.
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Andy Miller III: Each other's positions so chicken I have agreed on a format for how to go about this we're going to have some basic questions that we're both going to answer that i'm going to give check 10 minutes to ask me any question he wants.
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Andy Miller III: And then I won't ask you can ask me sports questions if you want to, we were talking about football before this guy started and then i'll ask.
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Andy Miller III: A question.
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chick: I can ask you sports questions I don't know anything about American sport i'm just a soccer man.
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Andy Miller III: There well yeah and I won't ask you any questions in the in the like so we'll be able to keep moving forward, but anyways you're you have to admit you're you're a Manchester United person isn't that correct.
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chick: Indeed, I am I live in Manchester and I share a season ticket for Manchester United so on Saturday i'll be there.
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Andy Miller III: Right and I shouldn't say we're recording this in December and hopefully this will come out in January there's other content i'm producing.
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Andy Miller III: In January, in the end of December, so I just felt like I really wanted to focus on advent and give a little time for this interview, and this conversation can be anticipated okay check, here we are so i'm curious you've come out lately.
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Andy Miller III: More very publicly through a conference that was called the included Conference, where you talked about an affirming stance that you now have I just curious how you arrived at this position, and why you've chosen to speak out now.
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chick: Well, the reason I like to the second question first the real.
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chick: speaker was the guys, who had up included asked me if I would, and of course they they made reference to the.
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chick: book on soldier ship that I wrote back in 1990 or 80 can't remember which no I am where I took a very strong stand and say that any.
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chick: Homosexual conduct relationship was against nature, a militated against family life, and it was contrary to the clear teaching of scripture i'm I took the usual line that nobody wants to be condemned.
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chick: For being homosexual in their orientation, but homosexual conduct and relationships are right and this guy said to me we've got a feeling that your.
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chick: Your your position and your understanding as has changed, and indeed hard and really That was really the first day Martha I really got to formulate this.
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chick: And you know what Why have I changed on, and so I used very conveniently though some theologians might not feel I use the absolutely accurately, although I my defenses that even Wesley himself.
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chick: never spoke about the wesleyan quadrilateral.
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chick: But, but for me it was it was just a useful a useful construct, and this is how I described it and i'm kind of pressing again some of this stuff I said when I spoke in the conference i'm.
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chick: My experience, today I brought me to this point now, we live in a very average kind of neighborhood i'm.
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chick: What I think people from 19 and sorry 39 different nationalities and our neighborhood and a different phase of Muslims Hindus.
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chick: Jews obviously Christians late Margaret and me, and of course in a neighborhood like this, there are people of different sexual orientation.
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chick: And there are people like Liz and Mary and their new baby I know i've got big ethical questions about surrogacy and artificial insemination, but when I see two pins showing the love and bestowing their love on their child.
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chick: I found myself running across the road to say hey your baby looks lovely one of these women is a doctor and the other is a journalist, with the BBC.
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chick: And you know what they're not threatening the stability of society they're just nice people.
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chick: Then our daughter Katrina who's in her late 40s now i'm Katrina at the beginning of this year was diagnosed with ovarian cancer i'm.
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chick: It was, it was a big deal, I mean she had fiber surgery god's been very good to us great answer to prayer she's she's well she's making good recovery, but during her immediate recovery.
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chick: She said to Margaret don't you come down mom she lives in London i'm I think you're too close to me, we do we to try and for you.
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chick: And the person who came and looked after was Gareth i'm Gareth is looked after both his parents are looked after his mom until she died, the nurses done during eunice and voluntarily came and looked after Katrina and did a wonderful job Gareth is gay.
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chick: I remember some years ago I went to court with a Salvation Army officer who'd been arrested i'm nearly jenks Tyler i'm.
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chick: i'm the last 20 years he's been is not a Salvation Army officer, but he is in a settled relationship and i'm much happier that he's an assessor relationship than when he was cruising jumps toilets.
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chick: hello, that that took me back even further, when I was a kid at school i'm talking about when I was.
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chick: It was allowed no class called James James is a little different from the rest of us.
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chick: We were a kid you wanted to kick a football all day long we called James the Princess because he always wanted to be if we were playing soldiers, he wanted to be the Princess that we rescued now i'm not for a minute.
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chick: corrected during all gay men as as the feminine but Jim certainly was and we give we give them a bad time we can remember bad time.
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chick: I still find it hard to talk about this yeah James became ladies hairdresser very successful ladies hairdresser moved over to the States i'm came on one Christmas to see his mom and then went back to press week to catch the plane back to America, the next morning booked into hotel.
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chick: And when he ran the bath and sat in the bath and slash these wrists huh I wonder how much you remember the book what we as kids had said to him.
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chick: i'm i'm so my experience has brought me to the point where I you know when I wrote that chapter in battle orders I don't think I knew any gay people.
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chick: i'm sure I didn't well I probably use some we were gay, but I didn't know they were gay I didn't know any good, I know I know a lot of gay people.
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chick: And they don't seem to be threatening family life i'm they're not sex crazy they're just people who want to live in a settled loving relationship.
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chick: And, and I wish for everybody, like your mother and i'd be married 53 years great wonderful marriage and I I don't want to deny anybody that kind of companionship and i'd be I began to think it through them, and this, this was the thing is really big for me i'm.
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chick: You know i'm on the line i'd taken was your typical line there's nothing wrong if you're homosexual orientation that's just how you are you're just must not give into.
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chick: Well, and nine years or so ago, I was diagnosed with prostate cancer.
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chick: um first that looked like it was really going to be very serious, that kind of thing, where you need to put their affairs in order actually.
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chick: It turned out not to be so bad, and here I am nine years later, very well, and since i'm speaking to people in America, do not believe it when people disagree about National Health Service I socialized medicine it's the most.
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chick: wonderful thing in the in the UK we all pay for it, but then we don't pay at the point of need, so the treatment, I had, I would still have had if i'd been the poorest man in Britain right, I want to get that straight, because you need a wonderful wonderful service and.
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Andy Miller III: i'm not criticizing here that's maybe a future podcast we can talk about the NHS I knew you.
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chick: know it is it and I have been accosted on the number of occasions by folks who said, you are terrible socialized medicine.
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Andy Miller III: Oh Okay, well, we won't go there today.
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chick: That that that's that's an awful terrible caricatured me I was treated and and I am well but part of the treatment, whereas you going hormone therapy which suppresses your production of testosterone.
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Andy Miller III: Right right.
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chick: So any effect, it makes you impotent.
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chick: Right now speaking pretty front and no mother and I have always had a very full relationship yep.
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chick: hey my.
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chick: You know it's a wonderful complete physical, emotional spiritual relationship, unlike most men i'd always assumed intimacy men having sexual intercourse well for 18 months we didn't and we couldn't because of my treatment.
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chick: And I learned in a new way what intimacy was you know those moments when Margaret just held me and said it's already I still love you you're not that that sense of someone who was devoted to me.
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chick: And I thought, what I am saying to my.
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chick: gay friends.
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chick: lesbian been women in homosexual men is you can't ever have that.
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chick: Just that is so utterly unchangeable unchallengeable anything that was that that drove me back to scripture as the Church has often been driven back to scripture and you know when when Darwin formulated i'm.
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chick: Is a theory of evolution and the chapter to go back to scripture I mean you can you can take a position where you say.
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chick: Well, if any theory of evolution is wrong scripture see something different, or you can look as many devout Christians do and i'm one of them who say you know what science explains it that way that's.
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chick: The whole scripture to chuck we you know you have to go back to scripture you understand it, and then your way and my experience to me back to scripture as the chapters always done i'm.
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chick: an item look again at those texts, and I mean to sum it up very quickly yeah and.
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chick: I don't think Paul in Romans one when he talks about homosexuality is talking about the same thing as we do today for Paul, this was a moral choice.
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chick: made by basically heterosexual people, but who were just happy to indulge in anything to have sex, when we talk about homosexuality, today we are talking about the very identity of the person it isn't something they want.
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chick: or something they do it is as intrinsic to their identity as being a heterosexual male is to me.
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chick: And so I I began to look again at the scripture passages, and I wanted to see them again through the window of the life and teaching.
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chick: And Ministry of Jesus, which is summed up in two words love the Lord your God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself.
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chick: My love for my gay, lesbian homosexual neighbor meant that I had to say to them, you are accepted, as you are, and of course.
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chick: I just want to add no shut up in a minute, but you know we live in a church and, most of us, I guess, listening to this podcast will be in the oven gelatin wing of the Church.
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chick: Jesus had some really tough things to say about divorce, I do not know of an Evan jellicoe church or a Salvation Army corps.
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chick: On this side of the Atlantic or a newer side of the Atlantic that doesn't have some divorce people we've managed to deal with that one we've managed to look on and interpret scripture.
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chick: Why can we not do that for people, because I think if I was if I was a gay gay my mind in a long term gay relationship.
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chick: I think I was being pretty badly treated when you know the chocolate, people who have been divorced, but me and my partner i'm imagining No, of course, me and my partner has been together faithfully for 25 years we are not fully accepted.
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chick: That was a long answer to.
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chick: A question on the I want to know where you are on this one.
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Andy Miller III: Oh yeah Thank you so much yeah and those of you here check talking, you know you can tell that he is a gifted communicator.
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Andy Miller III: And you know kind of a new generation of where my parents and I heard chick speak many times growing up and read read several of his books so.
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Andy Miller III: You know he's well known person and in the army as a whole, those of you who are my regular listeners, who are outside Salvation Army.
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Andy Miller III: there's not many kind of well known speakers within our system but chick is definitely one of them and he's a public person, a public intellectual thinker and so i'm really again just again, thank you for coming on and yeah go ahead, I will answer your question, though.
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chick: I don't want to interrupt but I don't think I deserve the description intellectual.
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Andy Miller III: Oh okay.
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chick: i'm good.
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Andy Miller III: Come on anchor thinker how about that.
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chick: There you go.
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Andy Miller III: yeah and i'll go back to to the 90s, you talk about your your book that came out battle orders which i've used which may oh my my father us and i'm going back to 1992 1993.
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Andy Miller III: My parents were transferred to a core or they were leading the Salvation Army church and then North side of Chicago was the andersonville core unfortunately it's no longer there.
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Andy Miller III: That Community had a major transformation, so when we arrived, it was pretty clear, we were being put right into a major LGBT Q neighborhood and that was it so again, this is like the.
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Andy Miller III: The early 90s into the MID 90s, a time where this is an incredibly for a forced my parents to be in a place where there was just very.
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Andy Miller III: Public displays of LGBT nationalism all around us okay so so we're there, and that was that put us in a unique position of knowing people, maybe even ahead.
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Andy Miller III: Of the sexual revolution of how it's I come to be now okay is in that time to where I became a soldier in the Salvation Army.
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Andy Miller III: And it was in that time now I don't think at that time we use your book I don't think they use bad orders and we did later I I use it later, but we use the Milton agnew's book The.
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Andy Miller III: essentials of salvation ISM or something like that and that's a key moment for me, because in that time that was where.
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Andy Miller III: I first went through our articles of faith and I remember going to remember the the room, I remember that teaching I remember the book and going through each of the Salvation Army is 11 articles of faith.
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Andy Miller III: And then the I will covenant statements that go along with it, and so, as I did, that I found something it felt like much it was beyond me.
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Andy Miller III: Even in understanding, if I knew there was something rich there and I remember signing as a 14 year old and knowing that this was a significant commitment.
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Andy Miller III: And so I point back to that time because it's the signing of that covenant that mines called articles was actually here in my office right now still and.
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Andy Miller III: It was it's been a kind of a gradual move to understand what I signed to understand the articles of faith and their depths and that meant coming into.
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Andy Miller III: conversations with people who didn't share the same sort of wesleyan evangelical doctrines that I would have on the the ninth article faith that deals with eternal security or any host of issues from Holiness, then.
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Andy Miller III: To the eternal punishment of the wicked all these type of things it's just like was this opportunity for me to come into further conversation.
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Andy Miller III: And dialogue through the years with those articles of faith, of course, the first article of faith.
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Andy Miller III: Was is the kind of the primary way that we go about understanding how God has revealed himself and that's the understanding of.
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Andy Miller III: The scriptures of the old New Testament are given by inspiration of God and they only constitute the divine rule of Christian faith and practice so then as i'm growing up in this generation and 90s 2000s.
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Andy Miller III: of going off to college realizing that my friends were coming out there was a couple of people I had to come in contact with and I had to really wrestle with this like I had to do I affirm what I signed when I was 14.
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Andy Miller III: amy do I affirm what the scriptures say and do the scripture say that, and so I had to really look at the arguments.
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Andy Miller III: Books came out that were challenged to me things like a I think Matthew vines, particularly, and so, then I went to asbury theological seminary and I was dealing with these questions.
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Andy Miller III: And, as I, as I work through that what I found not just on matters of human sexuality in scripture but I found that Salvation Army is 11 on call articles of faith.
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Andy Miller III: To be incredibly rich and I would find like okay I just read 100 pages and that's kind of summarizing these three words of our articles of faith, I found them to be.
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Andy Miller III: Life giving to me like in really kind of directing the way I was thinking about how God has revealed himself in the world, and my role to play in that.
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Andy Miller III: And so, as I work what worked through this I was dealing with the questions of maybe, like some of the well known scriptures that deal with homosexual.
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Andy Miller III: Practice, but then.
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Andy Miller III: And while I was at seminary and after I was married had conversation with Dr Dennis can last several conversations.
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Andy Miller III: And this, you might be able find some of this material in his book let's start with Jesus, and he introduced me to the richness of the nuptial metaphor in scripture.
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Andy Miller III: And I began to see like what i'm dealing with here okay there's a definite issue with the doctrine of Revelation how God has revealed himself, but then I began to see.
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Andy Miller III: The issues related to human sexuality as related to the doctrine of creation.
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Andy Miller III: And I began to I began because Dr kindler introduced me to Pope john Paul the seconds work on a theology of the body.
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Andy Miller III: And then that's become a way that i've understood that this isn't just about a couple of passages though i'm glad to talk about those things in perhaps you and I will.
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Andy Miller III: But it's this whole picture of Christ of god's relationship with the world and his creation and Christ relationship with the Church, as exemplified in this beautiful image of the nuptial metaphor, that I feel like really guides.
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Andy Miller III: How we are created, why we're create Why were created as male and female and that's added to by.
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Andy Miller III: jesus's words and Matthew 19 all throughout scripture I see it, kind of like a consistent theme.
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Andy Miller III: That leads me to trust the history of the church on this subject and I haven't developed a hermeneutics process to tailor this need.
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Andy Miller III: i'm I want to be here for the truth, like ultimately I feel like the reason i'm a salvation is the reason i'm a wessling is I think best represents.
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Andy Miller III: The truth, as revealed in scripture if God has how God has revealed himself so that's part of like how i've gotten to this place and so.
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Andy Miller III: That I maybe we'll get into more specifics later here, but maybe I can ask you a question, and now too so like just for the sake of clarity what's your position on same sex relationships.
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chick: What position same sex relationships is that there is a minority of people who are homosexual gay, lesbian on is gbt plus.
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chick: But they are a significant minority, but the point i'm making is and I don't disagree with you at all and and that nuptial metaphor, I mean I I often I often preach from you know the fusions chapter.
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chick: The marriage relationship, but but it's like Christ in his church I you know I don't in any way descent from that but, but I am I am faced with the fact that there are people in our world who are gay who are.
00:24:59.940 --> 00:25:15.030
chick: Their identity is such their physical makeup is such and I don't know that anybody fully understands, all of this stuff but that they are, they are attracted to people of the opposite sex and not in some passing phase.
00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:41.100
chick: But, but it is deep deep within their identity, I know that very the very metaphor, that you that you present the natural metaphor of of two people finding in each other, a deep unconditional relationship that can even reflect the wonder of the relationship of Christ in his church.
00:25:42.390 --> 00:25:50.010
chick: I think that I have seen that in some committed gay relationships are being know you know.
00:25:51.810 --> 00:26:01.620
chick: Clearly, the obvious thing is man women i'm not descending from that, I mean I hi i'm is heterosexual man as ever was created, and we know.
00:26:01.800 --> 00:26:06.960
Andy Miller III: That clear yes, I believe you guys, are you guys to know, I want to make sure you I want you to know I get it.
00:26:07.470 --> 00:26:09.090
chick: Now, but the point i'm making a journey.
00:26:09.090 --> 00:26:31.290
chick: To I can't even quite understand how you can be attracted to a person of the same sex, but it is true for many people and and I think in that commitment to each other, there can be something of that same reflection of the very nature of the created order.
00:26:32.310 --> 00:26:35.430
chick: But I I live, I live with messy.
00:26:36.540 --> 00:26:50.490
chick: ends in this, I mean i've got all this tied up where I know of a perfect philosophy I just know that that that gay people exist, and I do not want them shut out of the church I would.
00:26:52.500 --> 00:27:13.230
chick: I I still have problems with the word marriage because marriage is so deep in that is a male female thing, but I certainly if I was asked, and it was a committed gay couple I would pray a blessing on their relationship.
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:15.390
chick: Okay, how many people would.
00:27:15.480 --> 00:27:29.190
chick: You know, there are people on that side who see where you ain't gone far enough you're still treating gave people a second class citizen in the judge, but that's where i've got to, and when I did the included talk I did see of course this is still a journey for me.
00:27:29.190 --> 00:27:29.760
chick: Right right.
00:27:29.790 --> 00:27:37.440
chick: i'm not in a central position, but my my very understanding of scripture and my.
00:27:38.010 --> 00:27:53.580
chick: need to see everything in scripture through the window of the loving self giving Ministry of Jesus brings me to a position where i've got to say I do not want gay people to be committed from full fellowship in the Church.
00:27:55.410 --> 00:28:06.720
Andy Miller III: that's helpful, yes, so just for clarity, before I you know come back so you would you would be willing to play pray a prayer of blessing, but you wouldn't conduct a marriage ceremony.
00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:14.580
chick: The answer to the first one is yes, I would pray a prayer blessing, the answer to the second one is i'm not sure.
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:16.710
Andy Miller III: you're not you're yeah still journey okay yeah.
00:28:16.770 --> 00:28:17.070
00:28:18.390 --> 00:28:26.790
Andy Miller III: So um So for me on the subject, like, I would just say like how I think about same sex, sexual relationships.
00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:34.440
Andy Miller III: is confined to the understanding of scripture, and so I go back to that and I think of Matthew 19.
00:28:34.800 --> 00:28:43.380
Andy Miller III: First Corinthians seven and Jesus uplifts a clear view not just there, of course, as I indicate like I feel like this is the big picture of where creation is going.
00:28:43.620 --> 00:28:48.840
Andy Miller III: And I highlighted that to just distinguish a little bit with the complementary nature of the human body.
00:28:49.080 --> 00:28:54.810
Andy Miller III: is like Pope john Paul the second says, our bodies are a theology, in themselves, like so our bodies.
00:28:54.960 --> 00:29:05.610
Andy Miller III: tell a story about the universe now that's not saying that everybody lives within like being able to totally express that but, nevertheless, like the complementary nature of the body itself.
00:29:06.060 --> 00:29:19.590
Andy Miller III: tells us something about God, and so, for me, I mean i'm just as clear i'm sure you preach it like this, and I know you even have a book for teenagers on sex, I don't know if I was on a talk, where you have this but but sexual relationships are.
00:29:19.950 --> 00:29:23.730
Andy Miller III: restricted for marriage between one man and one woman who are in a committed.
00:29:24.210 --> 00:29:25.920
Andy Miller III: relationship for life and then.
00:29:26.280 --> 00:29:30.420
Andy Miller III: If outside of those boundaries there's singleness and.
00:29:30.630 --> 00:29:43.710
Andy Miller III: Both passages talk about the importance both tasha highlighted earlier talk about the importance of singleness and that would require celibacy so I mean that's kind of like the clear clearest way that I can come on down and that doesn't stop us from.
00:29:44.190 --> 00:29:50.880
Andy Miller III: And I think I think people who know me know that i've i've established army officer for almost 15 years.
00:29:51.150 --> 00:29:56.550
Andy Miller III: And this meant that I encounter people who experienced same sex attraction people who are living in same sex relationships.
00:29:56.850 --> 00:30:02.880
Andy Miller III: and never does it stop me from demonstrating clear love opening the doors of the Salvation Army.
00:30:03.300 --> 00:30:09.030
Andy Miller III: Where I serve, but obviously there are some distinctions that you and I would have about what that means, about the type of.
00:30:09.240 --> 00:30:15.690
Andy Miller III: leadership that we enter into, and I think that that's a challenge and we'll get to this we get to establish army question in a minute to like.
00:30:16.140 --> 00:30:30.330
Andy Miller III: Are we, being authentic to our LGBT two brothers and sisters, when we talk about preaching the gospel meaning human needs in jesus's name, without discrimination, while holding the positions that we hold.
00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:33.630
Andy Miller III: Now, did you want to come back before we get to next question.
00:30:34.440 --> 00:30:37.320
chick: yeah cuz I I think you're kind of.
00:30:38.460 --> 00:30:40.740
chick: How you evading the issue a bit because.
00:30:41.820 --> 00:30:58.260
chick: I think we got you I fully understand that sense of men and women, I mean i'd say that's a world in which i've always lived, but I also recognize that we are all a work in progress, we none of us is perfect in our sexuality.
00:30:58.500 --> 00:31:05.100
chick: Right, none of us, I mean I don't want to be in delicate in this conversation and suddenly i'm not setting up to shock people.
00:31:05.760 --> 00:31:21.300
chick: But I wonder what would happen on a Sunday morning if we say you know what we want all the men in this congregation who masturbated in this week to stand up and seek repentance know there's there are many reasons why we don't do that but, but you know that's that.
00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:26.820
chick: that's an issue it's an issue with none of us i've touched on the issue of divorce.
00:31:27.060 --> 00:31:38.700
chick: They will see you know even even though she embrace heterosexual marriage within the fellowship of the Church is a significant percentage do not live up to that.
00:31:39.210 --> 00:31:42.420
Andy Miller III: hmm for sure right, I heard that people know for me to say, like.
00:31:42.690 --> 00:31:47.430
Andy Miller III: An equal opportunity critique or of all sin, and I think we'll get into it, maybe it's a good way to transition to this too.
00:31:47.610 --> 00:31:55.980
Andy Miller III: Is it fake of the nature of sin and how we describe that, and so I would want to like I would call that i've called those types of things out particularly more in a pastoral care way.
00:31:56.160 --> 00:32:02.310
Andy Miller III: More of one on one in my office but whenever i've preached on this subject, I don't just talk about.
00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:14.340
Andy Miller III: same sex relationships, like, I want to talk about the whole gamut and also show the areas where the the church as a whole has failed this regard so I i'm with you and I understand.
00:32:15.150 --> 00:32:20.040
Andy Miller III: Maybe we can get maybe a little bit later we can get into to divorce question to i'm not trying to avoid that.
00:32:20.430 --> 00:32:25.920
chick: But let me, let me come in, and I know we agreed that we wouldn't interrupt each other but goodness me, as a proper conversation when.
00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:27.120
Andy Miller III: I got you know it's good it's good.
00:32:27.510 --> 00:32:30.600
chick: And we're going to we're interrupting each other in love and charity.
00:32:30.780 --> 00:32:33.030
chick: See I think you've identified for me.
00:32:33.210 --> 00:32:36.900
chick: One of the one of the big issues that that's that's moved from me.
00:32:37.260 --> 00:32:50.850
chick: And you said on your right to say you know you're not choosy about the scenes you preach against but see for me, the very fact of saying, if you are in a homosexual relationship a gay relationship that is sin.
00:32:51.480 --> 00:33:04.380
chick: I see you, I cannot any longer say that to my girlfriends because you know that intimacy that I was longing for that everything within me coto for and that Margaret gave to me.
00:33:05.010 --> 00:33:16.290
chick: I am depriving my my gay brothers and sisters in that if I say, if you have any physical contact, even within a long term committed relationship.
00:33:16.860 --> 00:33:26.400
chick: Even within the that is sinful no I no longer hold to that position i'm promiscuous gay relationships that sinful eyes promiscuous.
00:33:26.910 --> 00:33:41.940
chick: heterosexual relationships are sent to say to a person, you know to two people who've lived together for 1020 3040 years everything you do is said I, I do not hold to that.
00:33:42.120 --> 00:33:44.370
Andy Miller III: I hear ya I know I get that that's where you are.
00:33:44.520 --> 00:33:54.450
Andy Miller III: And, and so and i'm you know glad to hear some of that so certainly i'd like to ask a follow up question on that in a second, but it does get me to play and I will, so what we agreed to folks just a little break here.
00:33:54.900 --> 00:34:08.970
Andy Miller III: We did agree that we would we have a couple of questions that basic compensation, and this is right in line with that, but then we're going to take 10 minutes each where chick can ask me anything he wants and i'll ask him anything he wants, and so I think i'll try to get there.
00:34:10.140 --> 00:34:20.790
Andy Miller III: A little bit later, but you you brought up the question sin, and this might be a good way for us to think about at the 11th articles of faith so i'm just curious like where you stand in relation to.
00:34:21.660 --> 00:34:28.500
Andy Miller III: A doctrine of sin is it's articulated in our fifth article of faith and those are you outside of Salvation Army, you could read these.
00:34:28.860 --> 00:34:36.930
Andy Miller III: 11 articles, you could just Google Salvation Army doctrines and you can find them, but our faith article says, we believe that our first parents were created in state of inefficiency.
00:34:37.470 --> 00:34:45.360
Andy Miller III: Well, I won't go through the whole thing, but like i'm just curious after now like you're you're in your 70s, you serve for more than 30 years in Salvation Army officer we're both like.
00:34:45.960 --> 00:34:53.520
Andy Miller III: resigned our salvation army officer ship but i'm just curious like where you stand on our articles of faith and particularly as it relates to human sexuality.
00:34:54.390 --> 00:35:04.110
chick: Right well, let me come a step before human sexuality is the pose world all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
00:35:04.440 --> 00:35:14.250
chick: i'm sure we all fall short of what we should be, and we are all sinners so gay people heterosexual people we are all sinners.
00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:24.420
chick: If you're asking what constitutes a sin, I mean you can you can do the debate between and we're actually on a more conservative position.
00:35:24.660 --> 00:35:39.750
chick: i'm you know sin is any contravention of god's will i'm wesley's narrow definition that sin is any contravention of the known will of God i'm and I think that you know that's where I want to say from my.
00:35:41.100 --> 00:36:05.250
chick: gay brothers and sisters i'm that to be living in a loving relationship where lovers given and lovers received unconditionally, I cannot call that a contravention of the will of God i'm he was gives and lives, the best weekend by god's grace and with the help of his spirit.
00:36:06.540 --> 00:36:13.710
chick: I find it much harder to draw like I used to I used to know who were saved and who were not saved I know.
00:36:14.550 --> 00:36:28.860
chick: The older I get yeah the more sense than I am about fewer and fewer things so you know it, who, who is who is a sinner newest saved, we are all a work in progress, we are all either.
00:36:29.460 --> 00:36:37.770
chick: moving further away from Jesus or drawing a little closer i'm for me, it is not a rigid thing any longer.
00:36:38.250 --> 00:36:46.500
chick: You know that I mean there are some things that are so obviously wrong if I mother, my grandmother there's no debate about whether that's 10 or not.
00:36:46.890 --> 00:37:02.790
chick: But, but when you get into the area of relationships of human interdependency we all hurt each other, you know I i've been married like I said 53 years I love my passionately sometimes I have heard.
00:37:03.300 --> 00:37:12.510
chick: Some things when I didn't even realize, I was happening I i'm clumsy for goodness sake, and so I think that you know trying trying to pin me down there.
00:37:13.020 --> 00:37:31.350
chick: To a II II narrow definition of sin as it applies to to to sexual relationships, for me, all sexual relationships on a God if they take place within a loving committed relationship.
00:37:31.680 --> 00:37:38.040
chick: yeah which I am seeking to honor the other person and to honor God in honoring the other person.
00:37:38.790 --> 00:37:46.410
Andy Miller III: yeah and maybe we'll have time to get into some more of that later it's it's interesting like and I some people who are listening to this are frustrated that you're saying that from.
00:37:46.950 --> 00:38:07.140
Andy Miller III: LGBT Q side, and I imagine you've heard some of that too at the keep on emphasizing this you know loving committed relationship side because there's a way that that goes against some of the internal logic of even the letters LGBT Q so like what I want to get there, but I, as far as like.
00:38:08.280 --> 00:38:21.840
Andy Miller III: The I think it's helpful for us to think through this like in relation to how God has revealed himself, for me, like beginning like the first article of faith begin moving all the way, I mean, I think you could talk about human sexuality in every.
00:38:22.110 --> 00:38:28.080
Andy Miller III: Article and you could even talk about the nature of the dual nature's of Christ, the way that Christ redeems.
00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:38.820
Andy Miller III: Humanity by stepping into human flesh certainly our understanding of saying, I think that you and I probably are pretty close there, but we might define something how we get to sin differently, a willful transgression to a known law of God.
00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:47.970
Andy Miller III: Or if I like having a simple definition any area of our life, where we reject god's presence and to me when we step outside of god's revelation in scripture.
00:38:48.180 --> 00:38:52.980
Andy Miller III: When we when we move against that and and to me the clear teaching of scripture.
00:38:53.250 --> 00:39:07.380
Andy Miller III: From the beginning to the end states a monologue on the issues of human sexuality, as it relates to same sex behavior so as I, as I work through that and, as I like to think about the fact that God has put this into the very structure.
00:39:07.770 --> 00:39:17.310
Andy Miller III: Of the universe I hold myself like ultimately what God has said in scripture and here's like I know you brought up some things and people want to go back to your included talk.
00:39:17.610 --> 00:39:26.280
Andy Miller III: I think that that's helpful for me kind of it now existing in the Academy, and no longer and the army in though I attend to Salvation Army is my home church.
00:39:27.420 --> 00:39:43.830
Andy Miller III: The academy is not divided necessarily and the fact that scripture speaks clearly about same sex behavior now that this is where I would disagree with one of the points of your talk like even liberal scholars and I use liberal like I think people know what I mean so.
00:39:45.990 --> 00:39:55.860
Andy Miller III: Like, for instance, Bill loader Australia, New Testament scholar people would see him as an expert on sexuality in the ancient world, I mean, he says very clearly that that.
00:39:56.760 --> 00:40:09.690
Andy Miller III: Jesus would have been against same sex behavior Paul obviously and then obviously in the old testing as well, but what he said so, he says that very clear and most people who are trained scholars in the field would assume that could be the case.
00:40:10.080 --> 00:40:21.990
Andy Miller III: You know what they say is they disagree with scripture they just so they move from that in a different way, so that's and i'll just finish here so So for me if I was to go through all of scripture I have sin.
00:40:22.590 --> 00:40:33.990
Andy Miller III: Also, then of course the key relationship I look at doctrine nine continuance in a state of salvation is a continued obedient faith, this relationship that we have with the trial God, as he.
00:40:34.230 --> 00:40:42.420
Andy Miller III: engages us and calls us to themselves and brings us to the deeper relationship leading the doctrine 10 with our call to holiness all of these things, and then ultimately I think even.
00:40:42.810 --> 00:40:51.450
Andy Miller III: I think our 11th article of faith that talks about the artists are eschatology such also represents our anthropology that we are people created a body and soul.
00:40:51.990 --> 00:41:00.690
Andy Miller III: there'll be a resurrection of our body there's a immortality of the soul there'll be judgment at the end of the world there's the eternal happiness, to the righteous and.
00:41:00.900 --> 00:41:09.360
Andy Miller III: I always wish those two are flipped but the endless punishment, the wicked like these, this is a part of the reality that's been revealed to us through scripture, so I think that's that's my foundation there.
00:41:10.530 --> 00:41:16.860
Andy Miller III: Okay i'm going to move on to the next question and I really want to get here, because this was this is what people are paying for and nobody's paying for this, but um.
00:41:17.940 --> 00:41:24.390
Andy Miller III: What do you think about the Salvation Army in the future of the Salvation Army with references, can we be one Salvation Army where you've said.
00:41:24.690 --> 00:41:39.900
Andy Miller III: I think you said in your talk at in a conversation me that you think a majority of salvation is in the UK would have an affirming position like you and i've said recently, on my podcast that I think probably 80% now again neither this is empirical yours, nor mine.
00:41:42.150 --> 00:41:51.750
Andy Miller III: I would think that 80% in the United States of those who call establishment of church home would be in a conservative position, maybe that's wrong and maybe your numbers are wrong when we're not social scientists, but um.
00:41:52.110 --> 00:41:56.850
Andy Miller III: I was curious like what you think how can the Salvation Army be one with our diverse views.
00:41:58.110 --> 00:42:04.620
chick: yeah no yeah first of all I want to just pick up on something you made a point very, very strongly, I just want to pick up on it.
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:11.280
chick: That Jesus and Paul would have been against homosexual condo I don't don't don't that for a minute.
00:42:11.670 --> 00:42:20.070
chick: My whole point is, they were not talking about what we are talking about know they were talking about a moral choice to do something wrong.
00:42:20.640 --> 00:42:35.850
chick: heterosexual people and I, we are no talking, when we talk about somebody being gay about they're very identity, the way their physicality their whole makeup is, and I think that's that's a dividing line there no.
00:42:35.970 --> 00:42:38.100
Andy Miller III: You through this real quick, let me just come back to you and say.
00:42:38.250 --> 00:42:44.970
Andy Miller III: Like in general I just say this scholarly Community like the New Testament scholars would affirm that that that's what Jesus.
00:42:45.210 --> 00:42:56.190
Andy Miller III: did that, like based upon the culture, it was like can you said something in your other talk like well they wouldn't have meant that then and I hear you saying well it's a moral choice about the our identity, hopefully we can talk about that more okay back to my question about the army.
00:42:56.730 --> 00:43:02.190
chick: Okay well yeah first of all I have to preface this by saying, I am very, very careful.
00:43:02.250 --> 00:43:06.330
chick: Andrea screen and any comments I mean about the Salvation Army.
00:43:06.570 --> 00:43:15.690
chick: Sure i'm I am still a celebration is Margaret and I are still so just though we worship at another church, because I was the divisional commander in this area.
00:43:15.930 --> 00:43:25.110
chick: And I think attending a Salvation Army corps as a divisional commander who resigned could make things difficult for some people, and I don't ever want to do that, so we.
00:43:25.470 --> 00:43:35.190
chick: All know most most weeks i'm on the road preaching anyhow, so it doesn't actually matter a great deal and, but I think I think every denomination is struggling.
00:43:35.190 --> 00:43:36.060
chick: With this yes.
00:43:36.210 --> 00:43:50.610
chick: i'm it will be that, let me move it from the Salvation Army in charge, you know i'm I think most Anglicans in the UK i'm would would take a similar position to what I am taking.
00:43:51.060 --> 00:43:57.570
chick: But the the Anglican Church in Africa will have a very different position, how do you hold it together.
00:43:58.080 --> 00:44:09.900
chick: Well, I think one of the ways is by a discussion like this i'm assuming that by the end of this i'm well, I know that I will not be dismissing you and say, well, you are not a proper Christian because of that.
00:44:09.900 --> 00:44:15.510
chick: Right and I know that you will dismiss me, you might disagree with me in fact you do disagree with me but.
00:44:16.020 --> 00:44:27.780
chick: I think it is a little bit late, and again I don't mean to be the indelicate but the answer to the question how do you park your pains me love and the answer is very slowly and very carefully.
00:44:29.190 --> 00:44:40.500
chick: And I think how we are going to resolve this one is very slowly and very carefully and with much tolerance i'm with much understanding.
00:44:43.230 --> 00:44:52.650
chick: And with a sense for all of us, I think the not just my position, but none of us are quite you know scripture sees it, and that's it settled.
00:44:53.070 --> 00:45:00.780
chick: It is not that simple scripture I had a bacon sandwich for my breakfast scripture tells me that that's wrong.
00:45:01.350 --> 00:45:08.400
chick: i'm so you know scripture tells me that we should not wear clothing have two different threads or materials or whatever.
00:45:08.640 --> 00:45:18.870
chick: We don't hold to that Now let me quote you one one profaned example that I think is relevant to this and you're going to be as I bought it as a ball across you're gonna buy it back I know.
00:45:19.200 --> 00:45:30.600
chick: But you know there's Peter on the roof i'm when he has this vision of the of the sheet being Lord don't take any and Peter says, Peter starts to argue theology with God.
00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:36.870
chick: When he said no, I won't eat anything that's unclean and actually Peter had scripture on the side.
00:45:37.230 --> 00:45:48.570
chick: Because that's what scripture told him for that time and place that was was obviously I think related to the the the identity and the spiritual purity of the Jewish people.
00:45:49.020 --> 00:45:59.580
chick: But here is Peter in a different time i'm having to deliver the J, I was it was shocking a thing for those early Jewish believers.
00:45:59.970 --> 00:46:17.160
chick: To accept that gentiles uncircumcised gentiles could be accepted into full fellowship in the Church, it was I shocking, at least as it is for many of us to realize that the spirit may be nudging us.
00:46:18.630 --> 00:46:23.220
chick: Not away from scripture but to understand scripture interpret it.
00:46:23.700 --> 00:46:41.940
chick: from a different angle i'm i'm probably not expressing that, as well as I would do if I tend to write my words here but, but I think it's clear what i'm saying i'm the spirit will lead us, and it will not simply be a reiteration of of of of.
00:46:43.170 --> 00:46:52.200
chick: It will simply be a reiteration of scripture I mean somebody once said, if you've got scripture alone that that is death, if you follow the spirit only.
00:46:52.470 --> 00:47:03.600
chick: That is dangerous if you bring them both together you, you have dynamite doing this in the best sense, and I think how are we going to resolve this by by responding to the spirit.
00:47:03.960 --> 00:47:14.250
chick: digging in the word checking the word together, and I think, in the end, we will still hold different positions as we do still we will always hold different positions.
00:47:15.030 --> 00:47:25.620
chick: The big question is how important is Jesus to us how passionate are we are but knowing Jesus and living according to the spirit i'm.
00:47:25.680 --> 00:47:30.210
Andy Miller III: Just sustainable, I mean for the Anglican Church Salvation Army.
00:47:31.230 --> 00:47:38.370
Andy Miller III: The United Methodist Church, which I know is different in the UK, but maybe it may be a little more focused there we think.
00:47:38.400 --> 00:47:41.700
chick: yeah I don't know is the understanding sure yeah.
00:47:41.760 --> 00:47:48.030
chick: I think I think sometimes the honorable thing to do is to part company the church we actually attain.
00:47:48.750 --> 00:48:01.650
chick: Is a Baptist church and I attended a church meeting the other week, and it was a book they had separated from a network with which they've been involved, because this network would not except women.
00:48:02.130 --> 00:48:13.320
chick: As they went, except to my secondary leaders, but when it came to the issue of could a woman, be the senior leader, they said no, we will never accept that, so they parted company know i'm sitting there thinking.
00:48:14.010 --> 00:48:30.060
chick: I couldn't say what's the all about, because you know we resolve this years ago but, but the pastor who was telling it to this tears were streaming down his cheeks because you know, a network, a group of churches to which he belong, they could not hold it together.
00:48:31.320 --> 00:48:34.860
chick: And I think there will have to be some you know.
00:48:35.940 --> 00:48:56.610
chick: Again i'm so reluctant to tell the army what to do, you hope people sense that, but I do not think it will any longer be possible for in an international leader to say you might do that in that country, and that in that country and, and there will be no divergence, there is already significant.
00:48:56.670 --> 00:48:57.660
Andy Miller III: diving right right.
00:48:58.020 --> 00:49:01.590
chick: And we've been dishonest if we don't acknowledge that.
00:49:02.040 --> 00:49:05.940
Andy Miller III: I appreciate you saying that is there if I address the same question.
00:49:06.030 --> 00:49:06.990
we're pretty yes.
00:49:08.280 --> 00:49:08.730
00:49:08.970 --> 00:49:16.650
Andy Miller III: Oh, thank you, I, I guess, I guess, I should have said that yeah and I know I record, I really want this to be a conversations isn't just an interview with.
00:49:16.680 --> 00:49:27.750
Andy Miller III: chick and I like I recognize that because it's my show and i'll publish it in January it's kind of like but i'm not going to edit it, you know there's already some things in there, oh I wish I could have said that clear, but it is what it is, you know.
00:49:27.990 --> 00:49:39.570
Andy Miller III: So i'm thankful for opportunity to talk, talk about this too, with the army's future and I think you're right that's what that's where I think, and so I i've said, I think, and i'm very cautious to.
00:49:40.170 --> 00:49:50.760
Andy Miller III: At the same time, like, I have a thorough commitment to the army and even though I left it wasn't and I think you're the same way there wasn't bitterness and leaving is a God was clearly opening up a door for for me.
00:49:50.910 --> 00:49:53.280
Andy Miller III: To leave authorship but yet retain an.
00:49:53.310 --> 00:49:58.320
Andy Miller III: Interest in in the Salvation Army, particularly like developing and using other skills.
00:49:58.530 --> 00:50:03.540
Andy Miller III: That, I have another call ian's god's given me okay so like how I think about this is, I think we're at a place.
00:50:03.750 --> 00:50:14.070
Andy Miller III: Where there's accountability or division is required, and so I think you might kind of land on the division side of hard to say, but my my sense is is that we, as you said.
00:50:14.490 --> 00:50:21.840
Andy Miller III: there's already mixed messages across the army world now now now I could very easily say all this and say the same thing within the United Methodist Church, which.
00:50:22.200 --> 00:50:26.970
Andy Miller III: i'm very close to United Methodist church my wife grew up Methodist a here I work at Wesley biblical seminary.
00:50:27.240 --> 00:50:36.060
Andy Miller III: i'm training united Methodist on a regular basis and they're dealing with this fact of like what's going to happen what's interesting is as the United Methodist Church, which is a global group.
00:50:36.240 --> 00:50:43.980
Andy Miller III: But it's like it's conferences are different, they have a central conference was compromised Africa and the Philippines and a few other countries um.
00:50:44.340 --> 00:50:49.590
Andy Miller III: There was a suggestion for them like Dave they realize they've been going over this for 40 years I think the Salvation Army is really just started.
00:50:49.980 --> 00:50:54.390
Andy Miller III: The last five or 10 years really having these conversations, which is unfortunate, but nevertheless.
00:50:55.230 --> 00:51:02.310
Andy Miller III: When they got to a place where they realized they needed some sort of me and Nicole break, there was a group that's all right, we just need to go all out.
00:51:02.730 --> 00:51:07.440
Andy Miller III: Liberal in every possible way, then there was a group that said no let's have a one that called the one church plan where.
00:51:07.710 --> 00:51:19.260
Andy Miller III: Everybody can basically believe what they want, which isn't gonna be satisfying anybody there was another group that said well let's break up into four different groups, and we all have a historic connection and then there was a conservative plan which is.
00:51:19.980 --> 00:51:28.980
Andy Miller III: Where the where the church church breaks into at least two different groups in a global Methodist church emerges well I, I think that, in light of the mixed messages that have been sent.
00:51:29.280 --> 00:51:40.350
Andy Miller III: The the leadership of the Salvation Army internationally and as Commissioners work together need to come to a place to say we either are or we're not affirming of.
00:51:40.740 --> 00:51:51.870
Andy Miller III: same sex relationships in the sense of like same sex behavior and all the things that go along with that so and I know i'm not being clear at that moment, so I think that that it's to that point.
00:51:52.200 --> 00:52:05.160
Andy Miller III: it's either we have to hold that line or we have to decide we're going to buy don not promoting a plan for doing that, but that's where I think we're unfortunately where we've come to on this you're saving more about that.
00:52:05.430 --> 00:52:15.150
chick: yeah I mean I I don't want to be tree competencies, but I know that even senior leadership level, there are very different opinions.
00:52:16.230 --> 00:52:34.770
chick: And if people are going to be true to themselves untruth to where they feel God is leading them at some point they're going to have to see that, and you know I you can't have a kind of cabinet reached, you know, everybody pretends the agree when when when they don't agree.
00:52:34.830 --> 00:52:39.600
chick: Her that is ultimately unhealthy and this on this and and.
00:52:40.770 --> 00:52:59.850
chick: I I don't know any other way around it and, seeing that there are different opinions here, and the best we can do is to say, we respect that people are obeying what they believe where they believe God is leading them, we may think they are profoundly wrong but ah.
00:53:02.190 --> 00:53:07.170
Andy Miller III: yeah I hear ya I think it's going to a place where we're going into two different places like.
00:53:07.740 --> 00:53:12.630
Andy Miller III: This is where I think you and I diverge a little bit, and you can correct me if you think i'm wrong here is, I think.
00:53:12.930 --> 00:53:24.600
Andy Miller III: That this to me is rooted in the articles of faith like we all like I talked about I signed that in 1994 when I was 14 years old sign that those articles of war and.
00:53:24.990 --> 00:53:30.540
Andy Miller III: i'm Okay, with the fact that I have friends loved ones family members who have moved away.
00:53:30.900 --> 00:53:40.560
Andy Miller III: From the articles of faith like maybe they don't affirm a certain document and they're no longer in the Salvation Army I think that's okay like it's a free free country free world, you can do what you want.
00:53:42.090 --> 00:53:53.850
Andy Miller III: But at some point, somebody has diverted from the teaching of triche scripture as confirmed through 2000 years of church history until just very recently until just very recently.
00:53:54.240 --> 00:54:03.750
Andy Miller III: like this has been the church's teaching and as we're making that move there is a so if somebody is in senior leadership and doesn't agree well I would and I i've said this to people.
00:54:04.350 --> 00:54:13.380
Andy Miller III: And I say it, and i'll i'll love i'm not really trying to hurt anybody by saying it, so please excuse me if it comes across that way but you're the one who's moved and.
00:54:13.830 --> 00:54:24.510
Andy Miller III: that's Okay, but we can't be the same organization and still try and just say well it's okay to agree to disagree i'm not saying that's exactly what you're saying, but i've heard people say that around the world.
00:54:25.230 --> 00:54:34.410
chick: yeah I think I would disagree is, and I have no problem with the with the articles your faith of the Salvation Army none at all, but I don't think it is a.
00:54:35.250 --> 00:54:54.960
chick: It is a functional doctrine set of doctrines for a mission movement and that that reflects very much it's time I don't see it being an all encompassing a body of doctrines eyes, as you would suggest you know it says nothing about.
00:54:56.970 --> 00:55:02.820
chick: Things that the rest of the church hold very dear i'm the importance of baptism.
00:55:02.820 --> 00:55:03.600
Andy Miller III: More sure.
00:55:04.320 --> 00:55:17.760
chick: So I think you can't to say i'm that gives us all, we need, and if we're true to that we will take your position on it we're not true to that you'll end up with guys, like me, I.
00:55:18.240 --> 00:55:29.460
chick: do think that's that's a bit of sleight of hand, it is not that simple, in fact, the article of doctrines he's nothing about sexuality, I accept your thing about you know the the the.
00:55:30.120 --> 00:55:45.210
chick: Article but but actually says well that that's that's a liter addition the actual articles of war and that Stephen if he sees sees nothing about that now i'm not saying it's right or wrong i'm just saying, where it's at.
00:55:45.420 --> 00:55:50.400
chick: And I thought you're putting more weight on the the articles are more than they will actually carry.
00:55:50.760 --> 00:55:57.540
Andy Miller III: Certainly i'm putting emphasis on the articles of faith and the Covenant the soldiers covenant and putting the emphasis on scripture.
00:55:57.810 --> 00:56:04.920
Andy Miller III: And so, like that's that's no doubt about it, so if i'm going to guilty as charged that's me and so like I think there's no way of understanding.
00:56:05.190 --> 00:56:17.700
Andy Miller III: The words, I will uphold the sanctity of marriage and family life you'd have to strip them of all of their meaning and reinterpret them to understand it to affirm LGBT Q relationships.
00:56:18.720 --> 00:56:19.020
00:56:19.380 --> 00:56:24.900
chick: So so you're not referring to the articles, while you're you're referring to him later gloss.
00:56:25.440 --> 00:56:26.940
Andy Miller III: Soldiers covenant that I signed.
00:56:27.300 --> 00:56:30.690
chick: Okay, which, which is, which is a little different from what I thought you were.
00:56:30.690 --> 00:56:35.280
Andy Miller III: Saying okay yeah so so I kind of put as a now again I don't take this because.
00:56:35.520 --> 00:56:44.610
Andy Miller III: I don't take truth from the articles of faith or my soldiers covenant and say okay now everything comes out I feel like i've arrived at truth and i'm trying to get there, as you said, a journey.
00:56:44.820 --> 00:56:48.990
Andy Miller III: Of discerning the reality of scripture how God has spoken in time and space.
00:56:49.200 --> 00:56:56.310
Andy Miller III: And I believe that that's most clearly expressed through the authority of scripture I think the Salvation Army does a great job and those articles of faith i'm disappointed with our policies.
00:56:56.550 --> 00:57:01.260
Andy Miller III: But those statements, I think, represent, this is the only thing chick I believe.
00:57:01.590 --> 00:57:08.490
Andy Miller III: that unites us like you know you've been around it, the Salvation Army world and the global church, I mean there's all kinds of differences.
00:57:08.730 --> 00:57:15.870
Andy Miller III: I mean if and i'm coming to Manchester in June i'm hoping to have a meal with you and Margaret and when I do like i'm going to learn all kinds of interesting things about.
00:57:16.140 --> 00:57:26.130
Andy Miller III: Manchester United and and how or how the church expresses itself and all kinds of interesting, but there is something that unites every salvation is a million plus of us and that's the soldiers covenant.
00:57:27.300 --> 00:57:31.800
Andy Miller III: So I guess yeah that's that's I I am guilty as charged that's what I hold.
00:57:32.310 --> 00:57:45.570
chick: yeah well that's a sneaky way out of it, because the right people within the rights of the Salvation Army often holding local officer positions, who have been guilty of infidelity and they're married.
00:57:46.020 --> 00:57:50.100
chick: Sure on we we say that by the grace of God, you are not accepted.
00:57:50.550 --> 00:58:08.160
chick: i'm that there are people within our rights, who are on their second and third, and even someone their fourth marriage no i'm not telling them to condemn them i'm just saying that seems to me a little bit unfair to say that that's fine they can be fully accepted in full fellowship.
00:58:08.190 --> 00:58:10.980
chick: Access to be two gay men.
00:58:11.040 --> 00:58:14.100
chick: Right together and love each other.
00:58:14.250 --> 00:58:16.830
chick: For 20 years you can now come on.
00:58:16.980 --> 00:58:20.430
Andy Miller III: yeah yeah i'll give you a 10 second answer to that and then.
00:58:20.460 --> 00:58:28.020
Andy Miller III: i'm going to give you the 10 minutes that I promise you to ask me questions and maybe you can put it in there, but my like my 10 second responses that those.
00:58:28.680 --> 00:58:37.020
Andy Miller III: Those relationships are continuing in a state of moving away from what scripture requires, but if somebody has.
00:58:37.320 --> 00:58:41.040
Andy Miller III: stepped out like, for instance, the same thing could be with somebody who's cohabiting like okay.
00:58:41.280 --> 00:58:46.290
Andy Miller III: I would speak against that I would pass strongly advise against that I would there would be church discipline that would come into place.
00:58:46.530 --> 00:58:57.510
Andy Miller III: If cohabitation was happening, but it's not wrong for them to get married it's not wrong for somebody said it's moving in the direction of what God has required I think that's the point that's to be made and and we.
00:58:58.110 --> 00:59:06.570
Andy Miller III: won't talk about divorce, right now, but go ahead, you get you get 10 minutes i'm going to set the timer and I will I will I will hold you, you get 10 Minutes do you still have time to do this.
00:59:07.050 --> 00:59:07.530
chick: I can do.
00:59:08.100 --> 00:59:13.590
Andy Miller III: So 10 minutes questions you get asked me asked me and then i'll get 10 minutes of questions for you.
00:59:14.760 --> 00:59:25.470
chick: Well, I think the obvious one to ask us with this profound devotion to the shoulders covenant, and I hugely respected i'm a hugely respect to the no I have not.
00:59:25.950 --> 00:59:36.960
chick: moved away from it in my own personal life, I mean you know today people sometimes say to me, or do you drink, as if I was suddenly start drinking alcohol so i'm you know i'm very i'm very comfortable there.
00:59:37.350 --> 00:59:52.320
chick: But I do wonder why you moved away from officer ship i'm because that that just seems an interesting one, if that is so such an anchor point for you, you can do ceiling in a different ocean.
00:59:53.430 --> 01:00:01.020
Andy Miller III: yeah well, I mean that's a personal question i'm glad to answer it, thank you for asking and, of course, you and I could probably have a nice long talk about some of the things about.
01:00:01.350 --> 01:00:09.420
Andy Miller III: No longer being savage army officer, I was a sixth generation Salvation Army officer i'm still six generations salvation is my kids are seventh generation so.
01:00:10.380 --> 01:00:12.510
Andy Miller III: I you know I wasn't seeking to leave.
01:00:13.380 --> 01:00:20.520
Andy Miller III: I mean certainly people know me like i'm I think i'm a little bit like you willing to speak out willing to speak out as a selfish army officer.
01:00:20.790 --> 01:00:27.690
Andy Miller III: about things that I held to be true, I wrote i've written articles and books and i've been somebody who wants to.
01:00:27.990 --> 01:00:32.400
Andy Miller III: Be clear but that's not why I left I didn't leave because the army had done anything to me.
01:00:32.760 --> 01:00:43.740
Andy Miller III: Honestly, like I just believe firmly that God was calling me to, I believe, as God could call me into officer ship he could also call me out of service from officer ship and.
01:00:43.980 --> 01:00:50.100
Andy Miller III: So just my own testimony at this a little over a year ago, when the President of West a biblical seminary came to me.
01:00:50.850 --> 01:00:58.650
Andy Miller III: And offered me this job I didn't I didn't apply for it, I didn't even I was even you know looking to make this type of move I said no to him right away.
01:00:59.010 --> 01:01:06.870
Andy Miller III: And I recommended three other people who I thought could do a good job I didn't think I was qualified for this job I serve as the academic Dean, and then i'm a professor as well.
01:01:07.890 --> 01:01:10.770
Andy Miller III: And so, as I kind of worked through it, I said no, and then.
01:01:11.790 --> 01:01:18.210
Andy Miller III: abby agreed with me in two weeks later, we both to sense the spirit, leading us to say, well, maybe we need to reconsider this.
01:01:18.630 --> 01:01:27.210
Andy Miller III: Maybe we can think about it, and so I called mentors and friends and immediately mentors a friend inside and outside of the Salvation Army said, you need to reconsider this.
01:01:27.690 --> 01:01:33.570
Andy Miller III: And just a series of events, let it, let us to see that the door was swinging wide open.
01:01:34.320 --> 01:01:46.020
Andy Miller III: And, as such, like I just felt like it would be disobedient for me not to respond, and now I see how god's opened up doors, maybe through his podcasts i'm speaking writing scholarly work that i'm doing on William books include theology.
01:01:46.260 --> 01:02:00.900
Andy Miller III: That god's given me an opportunity to still serve the Salvation Army as a non officer in the United States, and this might be helpful to check for your some of the folks in your audience there's not a concept of seconded Ministry.
01:02:01.920 --> 01:02:11.760
Andy Miller III: If there was a way for me to serve as an officer at West a biblical seminary I would but that's just not really within the policies of the savage army United States.
01:02:12.690 --> 01:02:16.650
chick: yeah I didn't know start questions you kind of find out something or am I.
01:02:16.650 --> 01:02:16.920
Andy Miller III: Oh.
01:02:16.950 --> 01:02:29.640
chick: yeah and I hope I didn't do that in any way, but but I mean what I was trying to get to is what you really said to me is that you know what when we say and i'm articles of war.
01:02:29.730 --> 01:02:31.890
chick: On the on the same the officers covenant.
01:02:32.400 --> 01:02:33.000
Andy Miller III: Oh okay.
01:02:33.450 --> 01:02:37.140
chick: You know, we signed a statement about fun life forever right.
01:02:37.290 --> 01:02:37.710
Andy Miller III: right which.
01:02:38.490 --> 01:02:52.170
chick: You know i'm uncomfortable and I always say there are no only two things to which I will give an absolute lifetime commitment, one is to be a follower of Jesus the others to be married to Margaret everything else has I don't sit lately too.
01:02:52.440 --> 01:02:55.200
chick: Right yeah but, but the point I wanted to.
01:02:55.440 --> 01:02:56.490
Andy Miller III: Take a gotcha.
01:02:57.060 --> 01:02:59.160
Andy Miller III: Right yo yo go ahead finish your question.
01:03:00.330 --> 01:03:06.660
chick: The point I wanted to get to was that that sometimes this spirit leads us in ways that were unexpected.
01:03:06.690 --> 01:03:07.380
Andy Miller III: Right right right.
01:03:07.980 --> 01:03:23.850
chick: I never in my life imagine that I would be on anything other than the salvation army officer here I am equally I never in my life imagine any other place that making the kind of statements that you will be making on.
01:03:24.990 --> 01:03:29.490
chick: heterosexual marriage as being the only thing that's acceptable and that.
01:03:30.300 --> 01:03:50.910
chick: A gay relationship is PRC in itself sinful I cannot any longer do that because of my conscience and what I believe to be the leading of the spirit and I know this is dangerous territory, I know i'm just putting my head to be shorter, but when I believe Jesus himself would take me and.
01:03:51.690 --> 01:03:59.670
Andy Miller III: yeah yeah Okay, so I love what you're asking, and I really appreciate you think and help me think through this, I just want to articulate like how I think about the officers covenant.
01:03:59.910 --> 01:04:07.080
Andy Miller III: And this is, I think, and I don't have it right around me I can't i'm sorry I wasn't one of the ones who memorize that I have all the doctrines memorized.
01:04:07.410 --> 01:04:10.800
Andy Miller III: But I don't have that memorized but to me there's nothing in the.
01:04:10.980 --> 01:04:22.740
Andy Miller III: Officers covenant that i'm not fulfilling now now there is that document I don't know how it works for you the orders and undertakings which had all kinds of things about all the things I could buy and not buy and all of my time belong in this House show me all that.
01:04:23.340 --> 01:04:31.620
Andy Miller III: They actually I don't have that document has never given back to me, so I don't know what that says, so I think there's a difference between the orders that undertakings which I really didn't know what I was signing there.
01:04:32.010 --> 01:04:34.320
Andy Miller III: that's a legal document and the officers covenant.
01:04:34.710 --> 01:04:46.770
Andy Miller III: Now this, this would be a little funny, but I would think that I am I am still fulfilling the officers covenant, if you look at language like serve the poor preach the Gospel all that sort of stuff and I want to fulfill that so I my family goes to.
01:04:47.100 --> 01:04:53.340
Andy Miller III: The shelter in addition to the core on Sunday morning to make sure we're serving the poor like we want to be there now The other thing I want to say too.
01:04:53.580 --> 01:04:59.580
Andy Miller III: is like, as far as the movement everything I do like I feel like what i'm doing is consistent with what I see in scripture everything goes back.
01:04:59.790 --> 01:05:04.020
Andy Miller III: through the lens of scripture, which is the foundation for my life, and I see that articulated well.
01:05:04.200 --> 01:05:12.450
Andy Miller III: In the first article of faith to so like if indeed scripture is the rule of my life to the buying rule of Christian faith and practice that decision I made.
01:05:12.660 --> 01:05:20.550
Andy Miller III: To move away from savage room outstrip and I really feel like the movement of the spirit isn't inconsistent with scripture, and so what i'm suggesting.
01:05:20.880 --> 01:05:30.570
Andy Miller III: Is that your move, and I say this in love and I hope we can say it over coffee and a couple of months that your move does move against scripture and so that's that's altering like I kind of like.
01:05:30.810 --> 01:05:35.520
Andy Miller III: The the crux of our difference, and so I think it's really a good point that you made, and asked me that question.
01:05:36.150 --> 01:05:42.210
chick: i'm not yeah and I think you give me the opportunity to see, and this is kind of lucked underneath our discussion i'm.
01:05:43.980 --> 01:05:51.930
chick: And this is a simplification of your position and I apologize for that if it sounds insulting please dismiss that, as my clumsiness.
01:05:52.290 --> 01:06:04.590
chick: But I you know I no longer see scripture as the maker rulebook, it is the great unfolding story of god's creation and innovation is.
01:06:05.040 --> 01:06:15.990
chick: Sending of his son and the ultimate plan to restore all creation you're kind of just plop bitter but you know there's so many of the rules that neither you or I or anybody else listening to us are based.
01:06:16.200 --> 01:06:17.100
Andy Miller III: In right right right.
01:06:17.340 --> 01:06:18.900
Andy Miller III: No response to that too yeah.
01:06:19.320 --> 01:06:26.520
chick: And yeah and I think you can push that one way too hard, I need to live within the story of scripture.
01:06:26.760 --> 01:06:39.180
chick: right within the story of scripture means trying to live like Jesus lived accepting those who are despised and chateaux and, just as he raised up the women.
01:06:39.990 --> 01:06:50.160
chick: Taken in adultery and justice, Peter I to reach out to the gentiles I am not willing to see, there is one group of people.
01:06:51.120 --> 01:07:01.590
chick: Who because of the way their bodies are made, and they have every right to see me well, surely this is how God made me and then I am not going to shut them out of the fellowship of the Church.
01:07:02.040 --> 01:07:07.620
Andy Miller III: yeah so one key distinction and i'll just point people back to both of our talks so you had a 45 minute talk.
01:07:08.130 --> 01:07:19.170
Andy Miller III: included and I had about a 40 minute response to you, where I talked through the issues of scripture how you've talked about the Old Testament the the My big my not complained disagreement.
01:07:19.800 --> 01:07:33.720
Andy Miller III: check with you is the way you interpret the first article of faith is like you repeatedly go back to i'll say, and I mean this is all like i'm not trying to be be derogatory or anyways I think it's too too simplistic way.
01:07:34.050 --> 01:07:37.170
Andy Miller III: of looking at the words the divine rule of Christian faith and practice.
01:07:37.680 --> 01:07:45.870
Andy Miller III: it's not I know i've never suggested the Bible is just a rule book I like Kevin van hoosiers where it's at it's more of a playbook for how we live in an act in the mission of God.
01:07:46.560 --> 01:07:58.560
Andy Miller III: The divine rule is connected to this broader concept of the norms of our faith and how we go about thinking about how God revealed and jump in that the scripture itself.
01:07:58.860 --> 01:08:05.070
Andy Miller III: becomes the kind of ruler, like a like a like a ruler, that you have where you draw a straight line that's the sense.
01:08:05.340 --> 01:08:20.580
Andy Miller III: Of the words divine rule not rule books but I mean I put but people can go back to my response, where I talk about moral ceremonial and civil laws about interpreting things from the Old Testament through the lens of the New Testament so yeah okay.
01:08:21.060 --> 01:08:31.260
chick: i'm just i'm not unhappy with that and I, like the playbook thing I like the sense of a of a ruler and but, but the ultimate.
01:08:32.220 --> 01:08:50.550
chick: The ultimate teaching of the playbook the ultimate tactic is to be like Jesus i'm and i'm going to say this, and this will get me shut down by some people, the living word Jesus when there is a clash in my mind the living word trumps the written word.
01:08:52.320 --> 01:08:56.100
Andy Miller III: So, so I would think of Jesus doesn't do anything inconsistent.
01:08:56.340 --> 01:09:06.150
Andy Miller III: With what he has revealed through scripture I think that's that's where I would fall on that and I think okay i'm gonna follow Jesus OK let's look what Jesus said in Matthew 19 about the nature of marriage so okay.
01:09:06.990 --> 01:09:15.480
Andy Miller III: you're 10 minutes are up for me I got 10 minutes with you now i'm setting a timer okay So could you just defined for me like what you think what is marriage.
01:09:17.460 --> 01:09:23.790
chick: marriage is a lifelong commitment between two people.
01:09:25.110 --> 01:09:32.640
chick: It is often initiated by falling in love, which is a wonderful thing, but it is not about being in love.
01:09:33.180 --> 01:09:43.770
chick: When I used to do talks to young people, I was talking about a good marriage oh we'll talk about in a marriage and they would pick up at this point you make love from morning till night.
01:09:44.310 --> 01:09:53.280
chick: But you do make love in the fullest sense of that you create love between your marriage is is a deep companionship.
01:09:54.120 --> 01:10:01.020
chick: And we picked up on this that reflects the the relationship of Christ and his church.
01:10:01.680 --> 01:10:18.390
chick: And I believe it is and i'm gonna i'm gonna come move a bit here, it is perfectly reflect not it is never perfectly reflected, for human beings, but it is best reflected in a lifelong marriage between one man and one woman yeah.
01:10:18.480 --> 01:10:21.330
Andy Miller III: Okay that's one man, one woman okay.
01:10:21.480 --> 01:10:22.020
chick: yeah yeah.
01:10:22.110 --> 01:10:24.990
Andy Miller III: that's you so you're saying that that's it's best reflected there but there's.
01:10:25.020 --> 01:10:26.340
Andy Miller III: Something else keep going i'm sorry.
01:10:26.970 --> 01:10:37.920
chick: uh but so that that's the essence a merger, of course, it is related to procreation, the bringing up children and the fear and admonition of the Lord on.
01:10:39.840 --> 01:10:47.130
chick: But I sat there are lesser versions of marriage and again i'll upset some people on the other side when I say very.
01:10:47.130 --> 01:10:47.520
Andy Miller III: well.
01:10:47.550 --> 01:11:06.150
chick: ya know that that there are lesser versions of marriage, if I had divorced Margaret if i'd had an affair repented and married again my message would be a genuine marriage, but it is less than that foo thing that it was called to be alone, you know, for me, every Divorce is a tragedy.
01:11:07.080 --> 01:11:11.430
chick: No it's not it's not a tragedy which people need to stop, and I fully accept.
01:11:11.580 --> 01:11:16.830
chick: remarriage you know I do I i'm much less comfortable about it, if.
01:11:17.280 --> 01:11:29.850
chick: it's marrying you know that there's been an adultery between two people but, but I do accept every marriage happens, but but, but that is less than what God would have perfectly wanted to i'm going to see on the ground that I believe.
01:11:30.240 --> 01:11:37.590
chick: The Lifelong commitment between one man and one woman is god's best picture of marriage.
01:11:37.920 --> 01:11:40.650
chick: Right, I do except that we live in a fallen world.
01:11:40.950 --> 01:11:43.350
chick: as well that there is divorce.
01:11:43.650 --> 01:11:52.440
chick: In a fallen world i'm there are people who say my my whole identity is not geared up like that.
01:11:52.770 --> 01:11:59.850
chick: And I said and I also chapter my own marriage is less than the perfect best I haven't always been the perfect husband.
01:12:01.320 --> 01:12:01.710
01:12:02.760 --> 01:12:07.170
Andy Miller III: This is good, I like this chick I think it might interrupt interrupt you too much at that moment.
01:12:07.230 --> 01:12:14.820
Andy Miller III: No Okay, so I wish really want people and no social media, I hope, people as you're seeing this, I should say this beginning you don't come across and say.
01:12:15.060 --> 01:12:20.970
Andy Miller III: Well Andy is just a homophobic bit big it and that chick is a Bible denier I mean just be kind to.
01:12:21.270 --> 01:12:32.670
Andy Miller III: US and your responses on social media, if you will, I think there's something interesting here and i'm going to Joe, this is a joke Okay, I think, based upon what you said there I think there's hope check for you.
01:12:32.880 --> 01:12:37.710
Andy Miller III: hahaha so I love I love that there's this this still disrespect.
01:12:37.740 --> 01:12:44.670
Andy Miller III: For the reality of one man and one woman, but yet you're willing to diverge from that based upon divorce and maybe based upon a few other ideas.
01:12:44.940 --> 01:12:53.160
Andy Miller III: of thinking like Okay, so this isn't what god's best is for somebody so i'm willing to have room for that here's The thing is, I want to pull you back, and I want to ask a question.
01:12:53.310 --> 01:12:59.520
Andy Miller III: about the nature of identity, so much of this is connected and you brought this up many times and maybe I haven't given you the fullest response.
01:12:59.880 --> 01:13:08.370
Andy Miller III: That if we would have had three hours, I could have but as we think about the identity question, there are some people who see their identity wrapped up in the fact that they.
01:13:08.730 --> 01:13:18.570
Andy Miller III: Are call, and this is their people in my city they're likely to live with two wives to have to exist as a throttle there, this has been.
01:13:19.110 --> 01:13:32.880
Andy Miller III: There, there are people, of course, in this isn't like me, using a scare tactic at all, but people who look at pedophilia and want to re adjust that to call it minority, the minority attracted persons of course LG be.
01:13:33.720 --> 01:13:42.510
Andy Miller III: bisexual now that I know that doesn't necessarily mean that people are living expressing their sexuality with with both sexes, but there is that kind of.
01:13:42.960 --> 01:13:55.050
Andy Miller III: idea that's within it that it's not something that is a monogamous can is relation, so how, and they would say, this is my identity and then there's a sexual people I mean like I hear that, too, and like we're trying to work through all of that.
01:13:55.410 --> 01:14:03.090
Andy Miller III: But if people are saying, their identity is such that they feel called to have two husbands, I mean, how can you stop that that's their identity chick.
01:14:03.570 --> 01:14:12.930
chick: yeah what well just slippery things here and there, but there is a difference, let me come at it like this i'm you know i'm heterosexual man I think i've said that.
01:14:13.110 --> 01:14:16.290
Andy Miller III: I think you have, I think yeah I hope I hope my wife knows that i'm saying the same.
01:14:16.290 --> 01:14:24.330
Andy Miller III: thing yeah I I too am a heterosexual man and i'm in a loving wonderful fulfilling relationship, I just want I want like at least balance out there with your chick.
01:14:24.420 --> 01:14:25.410
chick: chick shut up and you.
01:14:27.150 --> 01:14:28.650
chick: Know really serious point.
01:14:29.010 --> 01:14:31.590
chick: I am not a naturally monogamous man.
01:14:31.860 --> 01:14:34.560
chick: Okay, I don't think most men on.
01:14:34.980 --> 01:14:40.680
chick: Okay, not often say this to people wouldn't talk about marriage, you know don't fall for the old trick.
01:14:40.830 --> 01:14:56.070
chick: you'll only ever be attracted to one women if that's the case you probably need to see a doctor it doesn't mean you're morally, but you know that that's just but, but when I talk about identity in the sense of a gay person, it is so much you know.
01:14:57.750 --> 01:15:07.890
chick: That it did to compare somebody living with it with with two wives or whatever with with with a gay person who is desperately side.
01:15:08.160 --> 01:15:21.390
chick: desperately lonely because they are denying something so intrinsic to themselves, I think, to say to them that's where you end up that's all we can offer you is in the end unconsciously.
01:15:22.650 --> 01:15:22.920
Andy Miller III: hmm.
01:15:23.250 --> 01:15:26.400
chick: I think I think it's unkind I think.
01:15:26.910 --> 01:15:31.350
Andy Miller III: That saying that I don't know if you think i'm saying i'm just saying, saying that if somebody finds their identity.
01:15:31.620 --> 01:15:44.400
Andy Miller III: and expressing their sexuality with somebody the same sex, there are people who suggest and i'm not saying that everybody who's there we go this route, but there are people who say I find my identity and expressing my sexuality, with two women.
01:15:45.120 --> 01:15:59.730
chick: yeah I don't think there's a slate of i'm there I don't think it's the same thing I think it's not seeing that that in me i'm not not only monogamous but my sexuality can be fully expressed in my marriage and.
01:16:00.090 --> 01:16:20.880
chick: I everybody sexuality, has to be restrained we don't give and you know we don't do whatever we want, we love restrains our sexuality, it becomes the conduit through which flows and that Condor also restrains it, so I think you know that's it we're kind of mixing it.
01:16:20.910 --> 01:16:25.770
chick: analogy yeah well, the reason I bring it up, is, I think that you're I think that your argument.
01:16:26.100 --> 01:16:30.930
Andy Miller III: If you took the template of your argument, how you interacted with people in your neighborhood the person who.
01:16:31.320 --> 01:16:39.870
Andy Miller III: helped her daughter, and then the way that you evaluate scripture based upon experience, then like if you were to take that same template and put it over a throttle.
01:16:40.830 --> 01:16:48.210
Andy Miller III: I think you can come to the same place it's like it's a reasonable conclusion I see you shaking your head and I just acknowledge that we disagree there so that's.
01:16:48.270 --> 01:16:50.430
Andy Miller III: Why, I one more question for me and then I think.
01:16:51.030 --> 01:16:56.190
chick: i'm just gonna say I think it's unreasonable conclusion I don't think it's a reasonable conclusion.
01:16:56.730 --> 01:17:03.060
Andy Miller III: Well, I think it's I when I was saying is reasonable, is for us to disagree, and I want to give you a chance, I don't want any of my people to.
01:17:03.780 --> 01:17:13.410
Andy Miller III: I don't want any of my like my people, whatever that means that my audience to think that less of you for saying shut up to me, I think you are saying, I think you were saying how I was talking about my marriage and being silly.
01:17:13.500 --> 01:17:15.570
Andy Miller III: So I think that's what you're saying shut up to me about right.
01:17:15.840 --> 01:17:17.820
chick: That, that is, Brittany Schumann.
01:17:18.060 --> 01:17:27.180
Andy Miller III: Okay, I just want to make you know you lived in America for a while I don't want anybody to shut you down or or cancel you it which by the way, it's interesting i've been canceled by a few places.
01:17:27.540 --> 01:17:36.150
Andy Miller III: Because of my response, my response to you, which is a really intriguing so okay bye last question I have eight minutes 23 seconds, since I started that.
01:17:36.930 --> 01:17:52.620
Andy Miller III: So when you you're you're a well known speaker and you travel around i'm curious when you when you make an A you get to the end of your sermon and you have a call maybe i'm curious if you do altar calls and if you do an altar call your call to repentance.
01:17:53.820 --> 01:17:59.880
Andy Miller III: Would you be calling people who like do you do, you make a call for repentance and what does that involve.
01:18:02.220 --> 01:18:11.820
chick: A call for repentance I mean I would often do that, and I would be based on the basis that we all constantly repentance is not a one off thing.
01:18:12.180 --> 01:18:26.970
chick: i'm repent and believe the Gospel is a changing of position it's met an oil is changing direction and constantly, we need to be turning towards Christ, so that would be my the essence of my call.
01:18:27.240 --> 01:18:37.650
chick: It would depend on what I was if I was preaching a boat and giving them repentance might be about a lack of giving about i'm keeping one's money to oneself.
01:18:37.890 --> 01:18:38.610
Andy Miller III: It yeah yeah.
01:18:39.510 --> 01:18:56.880
chick: If I were speaking about on whoa I don't know any one of 1000 things i'm about honesty and dishonesty yeah you know it would be a call to be honest i'm I I haven't often made a call based on sexuality and.
01:18:59.070 --> 01:19:07.830
chick: I can imagine many circumstances in which I would other than that I might call for faithfulness and fidelity yeah well I wouldn't make I certainly would call.
01:19:08.070 --> 01:19:20.010
chick: yeah I believe passionately in committed relationships in your life long thing and faithfulness and fidelity and mutuality so.
01:19:20.070 --> 01:19:23.790
Andy Miller III: that's yeah that's good Okay, I want to give you a chance, and I just.
01:19:24.180 --> 01:19:33.210
Andy Miller III: mentioned a couple things here to give like I have like a little like a one or two minute closing response and maybe I can do one two i'll do that with you, with you here and I certainly have enjoyed the conversation.
01:19:34.050 --> 01:19:42.540
Andy Miller III: You know it, if you guys at people who are watching this you know if you take a chance you can go to you can just look up chick and you can find some of the places that he's had his talks.
01:19:42.810 --> 01:19:48.360
Andy Miller III: And even the talk that kind of generated this conversation, you can find my stuff here on this YouTube channel, I appreciate it people.
01:19:48.540 --> 01:19:55.050
Andy Miller III: are able to subscribe, even if you disagree, I think, even though, like there's certainly our disagreements is opportunity for us.
01:19:55.350 --> 01:20:06.210
Andy Miller III: To have a clear conversations I think this is what's needed in the life of the church and it might be the place where I think it does lead to division, at some point but i'm not i'm not like i'm not saying that Chris has.
01:20:06.780 --> 01:20:13.380
Andy Miller III: chick isn't a Christian like i'm not saying that I do think that this message unfortunately inconsistent.
01:20:13.800 --> 01:20:22.770
Andy Miller III: With Christian orthodoxy, and I think it's problematic, as I, but I also i've changed on a number of topics and i'm open to the truth, wherever it leads like a chick brought up the.
01:20:23.700 --> 01:20:32.370
Andy Miller III: sacraments earlier like i'm one who's really push I have the first published article in the army, like advocating a change in that position so anyway.
01:20:32.640 --> 01:20:38.730
Andy Miller III: that's all there okay check, I wanted to give you a second to think about a response, so if you want to have a closing response and i'll follow you.
01:20:39.870 --> 01:20:50.610
chick: know, I think we pretty well since we're gonna say i'm I I don't think my position is always just respond, this is not an Orthodox i'm because I.
01:20:51.570 --> 01:20:59.310
chick: The Gospel is far bigger than a position on sexuality, to meet that the defining thing I mean you know.
01:21:00.000 --> 01:21:09.630
chick: you've mentioned sacraments and one of the things that became uncomfortable for me was a leader who do feigned loyalty to the Salvation Army.
01:21:09.900 --> 01:21:20.190
chick: purely on accepting the traditional position and sacraments I couldn't do that I had to be open to speak i'm and I know that's in some ways, an easier one.
01:21:20.370 --> 01:21:38.760
chick: Though certainly at that time it wasn't an easier one, but I think, to make this the test of orthodoxy, is a great mistake and I have to say I think history will be on my side on this one, I think, in you know what's happening in Europe will happen in the states in the next few years i'm.
01:21:39.780 --> 01:21:42.600
chick: You just a little bit behind those on this one.
01:21:42.630 --> 01:21:44.220
Andy Miller III: Oh there there it is.
01:21:45.930 --> 01:21:56.190
Andy Miller III: The famous British line i'm sorry i'm just i'm sorry, there is no I appreciate it that's great okay my little closing little bit it's like I just want to say, like I how much I value.
01:21:56.640 --> 01:22:07.440
Andy Miller III: i've appreciated your writing and speaking through the years check and at the same time, like as I, as I look at this i'm not trying to define everything based upon human sexuality instead for me this comes back.
01:22:07.710 --> 01:22:17.010
Andy Miller III: To the doctrine of the revelation of Revelation not the Book of Revelation the doctrine of Revelation how God has revealed himself in space and time and a doctrine.
01:22:17.340 --> 01:22:28.650
Andy Miller III: of creation that if God has put within our very bodies, a pointer to eternal realities that this is then described throughout scripture and how we express our sexuality.
01:22:28.710 --> 01:22:29.250
Andy Miller III: Amongst.
01:22:29.280 --> 01:22:35.370
Andy Miller III: Other things to that might be outside of god's best for us and so it's like in that sphere, because.
01:22:35.640 --> 01:22:43.350
Andy Miller III: I think one of the great things I think that any of us could take from a conversation and chicken I is that we say this because we believe this to be true.
01:22:43.590 --> 01:22:48.390
Andy Miller III: And if we believe it to be true, we believe it's true, in a sense that it will help people.
01:22:48.630 --> 01:23:00.690
Andy Miller III: live the best life that God has for them and that's why I say this, I think chicken I bought I know this about chick and I believe this about myself is, I say this, all in love in in ultimately like.
01:23:01.140 --> 01:23:09.450
Andy Miller III: If this is how God has revealed himself, I want to be on his side and where he's taking history so and I always and of course I love your song chick.
01:23:09.690 --> 01:23:14.640
Andy Miller III: The light has come, I believe the lie has come in the person of Jesus Christ, and the light will come so.
01:23:14.910 --> 01:23:23.160
Andy Miller III: Thank you so much, I can't tell you how much it means I can't wait to get the Manchester this summer and spend some time hopefully you'll still have me after this conversation, what do you say.
01:23:23.760 --> 01:23:24.870
chick: Even buy you a meal.
01:23:25.080 --> 01:23:35.190
Andy Miller III: Will you okay and and maybe some time will be fun i'm putting you on the spot here, maybe be fun for you and I, to do like a live conversation where people can ask questions, what do you say to that.
01:23:35.610 --> 01:23:36.630
chick: be happy to do that.
01:23:36.900 --> 01:23:40.080
Andy Miller III: Maybe we can do that, and if you will see if anybody watches, this one will see.
01:23:42.270 --> 01:23:45.990
Andy Miller III: Thank you so much for your time God bless you Thank you okay.
01:23:49.290 --> 01:23:58.110
Andy Miller III: Are in 321 hi friends i'm so excited I just concluded a talk with my friend chick you will, and we had a great conversation, some of you new is coming.
01:23:58.350 --> 01:24:04.380
Andy Miller III: And I want you to look for this in mid January it's going to come out and if you are interested in being the first to get.
01:24:04.890 --> 01:24:15.090
Andy Miller III: A glimpse of this go to my website Andy Miller third that's Andy Miller, I i.com you can sign up for my email list i'll send you some free resources just for signing up chick was this okay conversation.
01:24:15.720 --> 01:24:26.460
chick: wasn't an okay conversation listen guys, there were two men i'm discussing leaving disagreeing and even occasionally telling each other, to be quite.
01:24:26.700 --> 01:24:29.940
chick: By doing it all in a spirit of genuine respect.
01:24:30.150 --> 01:24:34.140
chick: and love and of commitment to the Gospel yeah well worth listening to.
01:24:34.470 --> 01:24:41.580
Andy Miller III: I hope you'll check it out and really this this conversation existed for hopefully to give space for chicken I both to share our views to have clarity.
01:24:41.790 --> 01:24:50.880
Andy Miller III: As to how we think about how the churches to interpret scripture and particularly our denomination to Salvation Army, so I hope you'll check out this podcast more to the story when it comes out God bless you.
01:24:52.950 --> 01:24:53.340
Well you thought you were done with us, but it's actually the next day for us this is Andy Miller coming back to you now, you can see, those of you are watching on YouTube.
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Andy Miller III: I have my very holy Christmas sweater on here with two storm troopers and candy canes.
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Andy Miller III: And so I got a text this morning from chick saying he really wanted he didn't he wasn't happy with one of the questions that he asked me he wanted to ask me another question.
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Andy Miller III: So I have 10 minutes here to kind of add an extra little piece on so it's the next day for us it's.
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Andy Miller III: Immediately after for you so i'm really glad that you're able to stay along and, hopefully, people will see this little extra light, we want to bring check device anything before you ask a question.
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chick: No just said, I you know I thought we missed out what for me is ultimately where the question has to be solved, and I wanted to make sure we included that.
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Andy Miller III: Okay yeah sure I think for both of us to be probably over the 24 hours, since we had the interview have things that.
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Andy Miller III: I could have done better there, so I hope you all are gracious to us again the point of this conversation this podcast was to have clarity to have an open, honest dialogue.
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Andy Miller III: of people who share differences, you could say that's a traditional and progressive salvation ISM and how we are distinct but I affirm chip as a brother in Christ and chip chick chick as a brother in Christ so anyways going you get one more question I get one more question shoot.
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chick: Well, the question is, and I asked the question of myself, because I think this is this is where.
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chick: We come to ultimately is what happens when a gay couple join my congregation when when when they when they begin to worship the they're not making a big issue i'm.
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chick: You know what hotpot store, or do we deal with that and I don't just mean do we visit them an encounter with them any pastor worthy of his or her soul, would do that, but what happens when they want to get involved.
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chick: You know, do we make that the line, do we say, well, you could pick up the hymn books, at the end of the service, but you can't sing with a worship group.
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chick: I mean that's that's the really big question is that a line that we draw yeah I couldn't we couldn't do that later, and I want to know where you are with a.
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Andy Miller III: that's a good question and certainly that's what we have to work through is like the real practical real world real real world applications of this and i've.
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Andy Miller III: been a Salvation Army officer for 14 years i've had to work with people who experienced same sex attraction, some people who are living.
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Andy Miller III: In a State where they are living out their sexual desires that move against the way scripture has revealed itself and how God reveals himself through scripture I should say.
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Andy Miller III: So it's not something that's completely unfamiliar to me, but I imagine that people are having to work through this in the practical dimensions as best they can, and I think I just hope people know.
00:03:04.290 --> 00:03:14.970
Andy Miller III: That the even people on a conservative side, like me, generally, by and large, want to lead in love to listen to and.
00:03:15.450 --> 00:03:24.300
Andy Miller III: And I could point to the people who have been in my office and we've talked through their concerns and sometimes they've come to the place where they disagree, they don't see this.
00:03:24.990 --> 00:03:34.140
Andy Miller III: living out of their sexual desires outside of god's boundaries that are putting scripture as a sin and so i've talked with them about that and i've worked through that that with them.
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Andy Miller III: I think one of the Claire clarifying things that need to happen, and this has been true in the ministry that God has given me and the Salvation Army.
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Andy Miller III: Is that our doors are always wide open Now I know that some people feel like that's not genuine the fact that, at the same time, we have restrictions and we hold god's boundaries for marriage for sexual activity.
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Andy Miller III: within marriage to be the guidelines for how we operate so.
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Andy Miller III: There I will I will do everything I can to welcome people and make sure people feel welcome because of any place I want people to be I want them to be in a place where they're hearing the Gospel proclaim that that's what's going to ultimately bring them freedom.
00:04:12.210 --> 00:04:19.980
Andy Miller III: And so I want them to be aware, if it gets interesting is in this is like kind of this could be debated talked about on many fronts.
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Andy Miller III: Is what does membership mean in in our tradition check we have soldier ship which is an extreme commitment.
00:04:26.580 --> 00:04:31.530
Andy Miller III: A stream covenant, we have add here and see which is a little squishy and always been hard to figure out.
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Andy Miller III: And, depending on the general, it seems to go up and down with what that what at here and see it looks like like what what that means that you have people who are see places their church home.
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Andy Miller III: So I think when there are opportunities to be able to have like clear lines of what.
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Andy Miller III: Leadership is what being a member is that's where we have to start thinking about what it means to be a part of a church and so, in that case.
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Andy Miller III: There wouldn't be opportunities for leadership for people who are living in sin, and I would say the same thing to somebody who's living in adultery.
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Andy Miller III: Or has an addiction to pornography or any other any other sins to so there's my quick answer I know you probably want to respond, a little bit to me and i'll give that to you before I asked, I asked you a question.
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chick: yeah I mean I think there's the rub between us, because my contention would be that in in a proper reading of scripture and the.
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chick: Two people in a committed loving relationship, and I would ask the same from a homosexual couple of our died from a heterosexual couple.
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chick: of commitment love mutuality I do not think they are living in sin, and they are, they are, they are being true to.
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chick: Their experience of their identity and of how God touches them, and I think again, you know, the idea that we will welcome people, but when it comes to the crunch, you cannot be a member, I mean, I think we could debate whether soldier ship is actually membership.
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Andy Miller III: I mean either.
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chick: I feel increasingly sold your ship is a membership of an order and not men is not church membership, you cannot in the church membership.
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chick: Based on extra biblical promises which soldier ship demands is not, this is not a very good order but it isn't church membership I don't think.
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chick: and any meaningful thing, but I think again, my question was practically, how do you live.
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chick: Do you say to them, you can come and sit in the congregation and listen to me preach and hear everything comes on and we'll talk to you at the end of the service and we'll treat your nicely.
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chick: But what of this couple say we'd love to be involved do we let them help with the Christmas collection, where the kettle's or you can do that, but.
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chick: You couldn't actually singing in our songs Those are our worship brigade, what happens if one is a trumpet player you can't play in our band I I think that's in the end is exclusive.
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chick: And I think it is counterproductive and I think what we actually say to people is there is actually no real place for you in the Church.
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Andy Miller III: Right I I understand that's that's how that appears, and I think that those lines or something we need to work through an individual basis, but when it's a my distinction is.
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Andy Miller III: Any form of leadership is where that distinguished now of course I said it feels like it's been 24 hours, since we talked but people are going to hear this right away my challenge to you, of course, in all this is.
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Andy Miller III: I appreciate that there you're trying to emphasize the monogamous faithful loving relationships.
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Andy Miller III: But to me it doesn't seem like it's going to be very long, when you hold that view and you have that template for understanding reality that that's going to express itself in something beyond monogamy okay my question.
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Andy Miller III: My question to you chip Jackie playing chip chick is the canon closed and, and I say that, in light of the fact that has has the light come the light has come.
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Andy Miller III: You know I love I love your song and to me it kind of expressing some of that reality that we see at the beginning of of Hebrews that God has revealed himself, but do you believe the cannon is closed.
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chick: Yes, indeed I do you kind of add to scripture i'm.
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chick: You know, but but let's let's remember that the church had two years his judgment is this me to decide what was scripture and what wasn't.
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chick: And some books were more controversial than others what I would say is no canon has decided we we, we must not change that, but there is new light yet to break out of scripture I mean I got back to the issue of slavery.
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chick: i'm 150 years ago in Britain and America Christian man who went to church on a Sunday thought there was nothing wrong with owning people.
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chick: Because in the Bible, it says talk too much liberty has been OK, we have we have begun to understand that the trajectory of scripture leads us to a place.
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chick: Where, for one human being to own another human being is entirely country to the will of God scriptures closed, but there is new late still to break out of scripture.
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Andy Miller III: I love, how you brought light into that theme you're such a good communicator chip.
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Andy Miller III: I keep on saying your name wrong I don't know what happened, maybe I just saw somebody named chip okay so here's what I unfortunately.
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Andy Miller III: I have a Christmas party i'm going to, even though this is coming out in January, so we don't have time.
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Andy Miller III: To fully respond to that, I will say that people can look at some of my past videos, particularly my response on the western quadrilateral and chicks included talk.
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Andy Miller III: Where I address some of the slaver issues that's something i'm not avoiding that i'm not avoid that but for the sake of people's time now we're getting closer to hour and a half.
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Andy Miller III: Again here's going to be a love fest again chick thanks so much for your time.
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Andy Miller III: Right now, I say Merry Christmas to you, but when people listen to this there'll be more like.
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Andy Miller III: Happy New Year, we need to do more, we need to have more discussions, and I think that our perspectives, like our camps, so to speak, if there is such a thing.
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Andy Miller III: don't talk enough and don't have conversations like this and, in the last 24 hours, since we talked i've been thankful that you gave me this time.
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chick: Well, and I go back to what Winston Churchill said when people were saying, but you know politicians did too much talking and.
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chick: And there was too much that phrase they use was jar jar and Churchill said jar jar is better than war war.
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chick: And I think what ever, we must avoid a war in the Church in the body of Christ, we need to talk and talk and talk until we we come to some kind of respectful conclusion, even if that means we we cannot actually Minister together, and so it will mean.
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chick: But I love that yeah.
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chick: We will walk in respect and we will continue continually pray for each other and seek god's blessing on each other's ministries.
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Andy Miller III: amen oh Thank you so much check and you did give me a chance to show off my ugly Christmas sweater So what can I say I love, how you concluded there thanks so much for coming to the mortar story podcast, and I say to everyone, God bless you and thank you check for your time.
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chick: My pleasure.