Scripture's Story with Dr. Joy Moore

Having the chance to hear from Dr. Joy Moore was a treat. In this podcast, she shares the power of grasping the big story of scripture and communicating for our time. She encourages communicators of the gospel to “tell the story of God rather than tell people what to do.” Check out this helpful conversation here:

YouTube - https://youtu.be/SNMMy-W5Lnc

Audio - https://andymilleriii.com/media/podcast

Apple - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-to-the-story-with-dr-andy-miller/id1569988895?uo=4

A native of Chicago, Illinois, Moore’s desire to teach led her to earn a BA in Education and Mathematics from National College of Education (National-Louis University) in 1982 and an MDiv from Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary in 1989. A John Wesley Fellowship (2001-2005) from A Foundation for Theological Education enabled her to work on a Ph.D. in Practical Theology, which she earned from Brunel University/London School of Theology in 2007. She joined the faculty of Luther Seminary in July 2019 to teach Biblical Preaching.

Joy grew up in the American Midwest on Chicago’s southside attending Commonwealth Community Church, where she was spiritually formed and experienced a call to Christian Ministry. Professor Moore is currently President of the Wesleyan Theological Society and an avid fan of books by David Baldacci and John Hart. When not teaching, she enjoys traveling, watching episodes of NCIS, and reading. Currently, she is reading the works of Octavia E. Butler and Lord Jonathan Sacks. (and yes, she is fascinated by the Marvel Universe!)

A FREE RESOURCE FOR MINISTRY – By signing up for my email list, you can get a four-page PDF document - A Guide for Exegetical Preparation for Preaching and Teaching. Sign up here.

Today’s episode is brought to you by two sponsors:

Bill Roberts is a financial advisor, who has been serving the retirement planning and investment needs of individuals, families, non-profits, and churches for 25 years. He is a Certified Financial Planner and accredited investment fiduciary. Bill specializes in working with Salvation Army employees and officers by helping them realize their financial goals. You can find out more about Bill’s business at www.WilliamHRoberts.com

AND

Wesley Biblical Seminary - Interested in getting going deeper in your faith, check out our certificate programs, B.A., M.A.s, M.Div., and D.Min degrees. You will study with world-class faculty and the most racially diverse student body in the country. www.wbs.edu

Transcript:

Welcome to the more story podcast i'm so glad you've come around.

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Andy Miller III: Okay i'm gonna try that again here Jeff 321.

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Andy Miller III: Welcome to the more to the story podcast i'm glad that you're here there's great content coming your way from Dr joy more I think you're going to be blessed by what you hear from her.

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Andy Miller III: Just a wonderful way of telling the story of scripture and what's happened in her own story and the way God used that is using that through her vocation, so I want you to know those of you who've been.

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Andy Miller III: Following our podcast for a while, I really appreciate all the feedback we get the opportunity to take to share to like to subscribe all of those things.

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Andy Miller III: really help us get the word out more so if you can do that, it means a lot to me and it helps us spread the word more.

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Andy Miller III: Also i'm thankful to people who have helped sponsor this podcast and anonymous donor wp oh development bill Roberts.

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Andy Miller III: You can find links to information for these folks in the show notes, they believe in the ministry as podcasts they've helped me a lot also if you join my email list i'll send you a free.

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Andy Miller III: resource that can be used for people preparing to preach and teach in their churches it's something that helps you execute scripture faithfully but has a kind of creative angle to that and those of you listening to Joy more will.

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Andy Miller III: Today, as we listen to his podcast you're going to find that something that we need to do, and we are called to do as believers thanks again for coming and checking out this podcast enjoy this conversation with joy more.
this is gonna be a great episode i'm so glad that you all came along.

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Andy Miller III: This is a delight to have we'll welcome our guest today and I just know those of you who are in ministry, those of you are interested in preaching are going to love our time with Dr joy more joy, welcome to the podcast.

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Joy J. Moore: i'm so glad to glad to be here with you Andy, thank you for having me on.

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Andy Miller III: Absolutely well just so everybody knows we can get the Make sure people know where you're serving what you're doing joy.

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Andy Miller III: It was appointed as the first non Lutheran female African American to serve as a Vice President for academic affairs and dean of the Faculty at Luther seminary.

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Andy Miller III: in St Paul Minnesota and where she also serves as a professor of biblical preaching.

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Andy Miller III: On top of that she is an ordained elder in the United Methodist church in the annual conference of the Michigan annual conference.

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Andy Miller III: And she's served at a variety of seminaries across the country God has used her powerfully as a preaching Professor administrator and pastor so joy that's a lot there but it that's part of why I want to have you on Thank you.

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Joy J. Moore: Thank you.

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Andy Miller III: I remember hearing hearing your story.

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Andy Miller III: Back in when I we are semi I was a seminary student I almost said, we were seminary students, you are Professor I was just amazed.

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Joy J. Moore: I want to have the seminarian though too.

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Andy Miller III: Is that true yeah yeah that's right it did happen.

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Andy Miller III: And I remember you talking about your call to preach and teach and all that was involved in that, and I just like to take a little bit of time for my audience just to get to know year you here at the start of this podcast.

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Joy J. Moore: Well let's see um I was born, nine months after my life again.

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Joy J. Moore: i'm too old to start that far back so let.

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Joy J. Moore: me back up again yeah no, I had the privilege of being raised in a nondenominational church where we were taught our responsibility as Christians, in fact, as part of the lectionary podcasts that we do, can I do a plug for our.

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Andy Miller III: Do it please without people pick up these things yeah.

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Joy J. Moore: we're working preacher podcast we were just doing in one of the verses was the verse that I was taught when I was a kid that we are ambassadors for Christ, and as a child.

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Joy J. Moore: Our Sunday school teachers are pastor the leaders in our church just made us know our responsibility as Christians, and so I just knew that, as a Christian My job was to you know, be a witness in the world for the presence and promise of Jesus Christ, and so, when I was bout about 13.

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Joy J. Moore: I was in the prayer room in our church and.

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Joy J. Moore: I just in in grade school had learned about an unabridged dictionary, and what was there was an altar Bible, but it was so huge I thought this must be an unabridged Bible with.

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Andy Miller III: All the.

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Andy Miller III: Words yeah that's right.

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Joy J. Moore: And so I took seriously whatever I was going to read and I, like so many others in their call I read the sixth chapter of Isaiah the column of Isaiah yeah and at 13 I took that for me when I read, who will go for us and whom shall we sin was like here, am I Jesus, you can depend on me.

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Joy J. Moore: Man um and then I went to high school and found out that if you said you wanted to be a preacher you had just given up on being popular.

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Joy J. Moore: hahaha So are we negotiated the contract, I was like God you sit teach right not preach.

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Joy J. Moore: So you got my undergraduate degree in elementary education and in mathematics and I taught middle school math.

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Joy J. Moore: And yeah and then God wouldn't let me go just God just kept tapping on my shoulder you made me a promise, and you know what it was and i'm holding you to it.

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Joy J. Moore: And so I made a deal with God, I said okay i'll get involved in church and at that time I was in a Baptist church in my pastor sent us to seminary.

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Joy J. Moore: And I asked how I wound up at a Garret which is I Methodist school and I found out my theology was wessling okay.

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Joy J. Moore: And then, of course, in seminary you have to do feel dead or supervise ministry mentored ministry they go by all kinds of name but you know it's where you actually have to have the field experience and.

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Joy J. Moore: I found that I could do it in campus ministry Okay, and that seemed to be a perfect bridge God wanted me in ministry and I wanted to be on the campus so it was like okay put me there, so I did an internship as a college chaplain.

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Joy J. Moore: And, and then wound up going back there as the chaplain at Adrian college and from there in in just an incredible story that's for another time.

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Joy J. Moore: was introduced to maxie dunham, who was the President that asbury seminary who brought me to ask Barry to do what I call my birth certificate, I was the director of women and ethnic ministries.

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And then.

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Joy J. Moore: Right.

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Joy J. Moore: say.

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Andy Miller III: You say that again say.

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Joy J. Moore: My person to.

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Andy Miller III: person like you did what.

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Joy J. Moore: I love it.

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Andy Miller III: back up some of my folks I.

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Andy Miller III: I come from the Chicago area and you were you grew up in Chicago right now, before going to Adrian college aged in Michigan right.

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Andy Miller III: Right uh for going there was everything in the Chicago area.

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Joy J. Moore: Everything cargo I taught and went to.

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Joy J. Moore: I went to college in seminary in evanston Illinois, which is a suburb North north of Chicago and and and got introduced to Michigan because of that internship at Adrian college.

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Andy Miller III: interesting and so, then, did you end up working Adrian College as well.

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Joy J. Moore: So yeah so I did my internship at Adrian recognized that I was going to go into the Methodist church, so I began to process.

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Joy J. Moore: Through the Methodist system for ordination and served a church in Michigan because back then.

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Joy J. Moore: When I get ordained if even if you're going to be a chaplain you had to serve a church first and I fell in love with the church wonderful congregation there and and then I got a call inviting me to apply for the chaplaincy at Adrian college.

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Andy Miller III: And I tried missed that little gap that.

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Andy Miller III: We share Okay, so in the chaplains role.

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Andy Miller III: Where you was there, like a weekly Chapel are a couple of chapels unique that you're responsible okay.

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Joy J. Moore: We had a weekly Chapel we had a group of seminarians that were preparing for excuse me, I said seminaries we had a group of undergraduates who are preparing for seminary interestingly enough, a number of them went to asbury before I went to so.

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Joy J. Moore: And so I was there chaplain they graduated and went to asbury and then I got invited to come to asbury and then they were students there, so they remind again a.

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Joy J. Moore: few times yeah yeah so that was great yeah and that was how that was how I I actually got truly immersed in ministry seminary a campus ministry seminary.

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Joy J. Moore: And while I was at asbury they were looking for preaching professors.

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Joy J. Moore: Okay, and so I.

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Joy J. Moore: applied for the position and applied for a PhD program and got accepted in both so went to London and I had the privilege of working with Tom right.

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Joy J. Moore: And Wayne doing my PhD work and then came back to.

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Joy J. Moore: asbury and then, as you said, my.

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Joy J. Moore: Will will Amman said i've taken itinerary too seriously.

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Joy J. Moore: But i've had the privilege of truly having the world be my parish you know from Chicago to Michigan Kentucky North Carolina California, the UK it's just been a wonderful opportunity to serve God and to be able to walk with people as they are discerning their call and vocation for life.

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Andy Miller III: wow so it so you mentioned studying with Tom right and so some people believe that means she's really on the inside, because she didn't call him and tea right.

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Andy Miller III: You might recognize his name there.

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Andy Miller III: tell it tell us just that I mean it give us a little thumbnail sketch of your dissertation.

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Andy Miller III: It was preaching or was it in another.

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Joy J. Moore: Practical theology.

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Joy J. Moore: theology and.

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Joy J. Moore: He wasn't accepting students at that time and I knew that I had a friend who really wanted to study with them.

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Joy J. Moore: And so, she told me, she said he's not accepting students so you've got to ask him the question right and, and so I met him some of the.

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Joy J. Moore: faculty at asbury made it where I could meet with him at its society for biblical literature and I had that privilege and he basically talked to me not allowing me to ask him what I wanted, so that he could say look i'm not accepting any any students.

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Joy J. Moore: And when he communicated that he said so, you probably didn't hear what you wanted to hear today and I said and i'm not even gonna try to fake a British accent.

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Joy J. Moore: So I said I said actually I haven't asked you what I wanted yet and I caught his attention when I said that.

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Joy J. Moore: When I started.

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Joy J. Moore: My intent was to.

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Joy J. Moore: explore how a scholar of his level at that time, he was interacting with dominic crossan and they were Marcus Borg and they were doing the history of Jesus.

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Joy J. Moore: The historical Jesus.

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Joy J. Moore: Right and I wanted to know he was also at that time serving as the cannon at Westminster.

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Joy J. Moore: Right, and you know people go there as a tourist attraction and they sit in Chapel for a few you know for short service, and so I wanted to know how did he move from that scholarly work in biblical interpretation to.

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Joy J. Moore: A message that was reaching people who didn't know that they had an open space in their heart to know the creator God.

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Joy J. Moore: And that was how I started and working with him, he introduced me to that five act play and story of God.

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Joy J. Moore: And I at that time, the way he told the story he began with Israel, because he was doing his work on Paul.

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Andy Miller III: Right right.

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Joy J. Moore: And so, he started with Israel, and I was so captivated by the story, I was like well why don't we begin with God why don't we begin with genesis one rather than genesis 12.

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Andy Miller III: Interesting yeah.

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Joy J. Moore: And so.

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Joy J. Moore: My degree is actually in practical theology with the focused in in biblical preaching and what I did was I looked at the story of scripture and the official title is narrating a canonical witness.

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Andy Miller III: Because here you go.

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Joy J. Moore: You got to call it something big like that narrating the canonical witness it's a homily for the 21st century.

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Andy Miller III: interesting and using the word canonical is that, like it engaging like provide child's that type of idea like canonical credit okay.

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Joy J. Moore: So I got into child's and then that led me into Richard Hayes and.

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Joy J. Moore: Okay we're of the Yale scholars that have gone to do and and then I I did a two pieces of venture from that because I was studying post modernity as well, and so, working with words and how now words mean what we say they mean, and so, in my work what I tried to convey is that.

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Joy J. Moore: I can tell my story as a woman or as a person of color, I can tell my story out of that particular experience and you and I can be.

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Joy J. Moore: at odds, as you are not you know, as you are a white male and I, as a African American woman European men.

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Joy J. Moore: Coming back and forth, we are at odds, but if we tell our story, as those who have been baptized in the name of Jesus that language that Paul use it becomes the church's story together.

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Joy J. Moore: And so what I described as the church as a post modern no I was using a post liberalism George Olympics post liberalism, I call the church a post liberal event.

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Andy Miller III: Okay, and just.

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Joy J. Moore: Because we have a story to tell that doesn't divide us, but actually brings in that beloved community of every nation every tongue every tribe cross economic.

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Joy J. Moore: status that society sets up as we take on our identity as created in the image of God.

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Andy Miller III: Interesting So when I.

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Andy Miller III: interacted with you.

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Joy J. Moore: Know i'm jumping over your.

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Andy Miller III: Sorry, I think there's a little bit of a delay so sorry if it seems like folks we're interrupting each other, I think it's just.

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Andy Miller III: So go ahead, go ahead.

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Joy J. Moore: No so there's there's that question of what does it mean to preach so that when we're preaching we're telling the story of God, rather than telling people what to do.

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Andy Miller III: Interesting that is a huge change now I remember about the time you were probably work on this and I remember this is kind of like the last gas of the Jesus seminar as nt Wright was a part of that that was.

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Andy Miller III: In that period at asbury seminary while you were there, I remember you came to a one class that we did I think Tony headley had you come in and.

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Andy Miller III: You said something like all right tell me what it means to be black tell me what it means to be Why am I your shake your head, I think you probably know, remember we've done this multiple times and we went on for minutes all kinds of things, talking about culture and hair and.

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Andy Miller III: You know dress and style and all kinds of things and I remember pretty clear moment I don't know if we would say it the same way now.

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Andy Miller III: But you came back to saying like where do we find our identity and we to be white in very essence is to be European European.

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Andy Miller III: descent, and to be black is a be of African descent everything else, and I remember it's clear moment where you're just like point at.

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Andy Miller III: After we had spent 20 minutes telling you and every everybody was telling each other and we had people from all over the world that class what it meant you like everything else is stereotypes.

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Andy Miller III: So.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, wow and that was a That was a powerful moment for me that that goes against, I think, where some of the discussion is in our time like we would say know that there's more to it there's a.

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Andy Miller III: case for me, being an oppressed group or me being an oppressor all kinds of other things that will come into it beyond that.

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Andy Miller III: I guess that fits into the same idea as to who we are, the story that is being told in the preaching event as well.

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Joy J. Moore: Absolutely absolutely So if I, if I can do it deviates.

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Andy Miller III: Right yeah yes do it yeah.

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Joy J. Moore: Just a little bit when I was interviewing to be the chaplain to to actually be the chaplain at Adrian college, there was a student who was really excited he was about 19 years old.

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Joy J. Moore: And you know, by then, I had my master's I pastor churches for for several years, and he wanted me to know how absolutely thrilled he was that I was the chaplain how absolutely.

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Joy J. Moore: thrilled he was that I, as a woman was the chaplain as a person of color what was the chaplain and then he said about himself i'm so sorry that I was born male.

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Joy J. Moore: wow i'm so sorry that I was born to a family of economic means i'm so sorry that I was born white I am so sorry that I was born heterosexual.

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Joy J. Moore: And I stopped him and I said, what are you getting it and he said well you, you know you have to deal with so much and I stopped him and I said wait a minute I said I don't think you understand i'm not a victim.

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Joy J. Moore: In Jesus Christ.

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Joy J. Moore: I have the victory amen and he didn't know what to say to that and what what I found that that was back.

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Joy J. Moore: That was back in the early 90s.

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Joy J. Moore: Okay, and what I found is that even today that there are a lot of progressives who still have this idea of what it means to be a marginalized group and the truth is, they put into stereotypes and maybe I should say we because that's not just a prerogative of one group.

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Joy J. Moore: We all listen to the same Media we all buy the same stereotypes.

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Joy J. Moore: As your class demonstrated.

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Joy J. Moore: And, and what we do is We say this is a marginalized people and we marginalize people by race by gender.

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Joy J. Moore: By what our society calls sexual orientation, by economic class, you name it by political affiliation by denomination we find ways to other people saw that we can call them victims and help them.

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Joy J. Moore: And well what if I say you know in Jesus Christ, we all stand and i'm gonna use such a cliche.

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Joy J. Moore: We stand on level ground at the foot of the cross yes and where we receive that abundant love and forgiveness and grace of God demonstrated in Jesus Christ, we, together, become a glimpse.

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Joy J. Moore: Of the beloved community of every nation every tongue every tribe, and in the first century, when that happened, people said what's with them.

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Joy J. Moore: Because they are not following Greek and Roman culture they've abandoned the caste system they've abandoned the class system they've abandoned male versus female they are doing it all wrong in the thing to be enjoying themselves.

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Joy J. Moore: We shouldn't be having the same effect in the 21st century, as they had in the last century.

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Andy Miller III: wow you know that's one of the unique things I love that and it does, do you know, like joy has actually taught to adjunct for us here at Wesley biblical seminary and just just did so this past January.

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Andy Miller III: At least in like a lecturing capacity, it was great to have you in there.

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Andy Miller III: I think like where things are working it's incredibly beautiful attractive and and I I can't help but highlight Wesley biblical this moment, because we have an incredible diversity 61% of our students are non white 45% are female.

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Andy Miller III: Now what what's unique about that it's like you think okay well we've worked really hard to make sure, everything is just perfect like everybody feels completely representative we're not saying any of the wrong words were sure we probably mess up a lot and.

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Andy Miller III: Yet we're surrounded were on that foot of the cross and probably I think what's made it successful here at Wesley biblical is that.

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Andy Miller III: it's that same perspective, you have of us being the beloved community united in mission going together, and it is a beautiful wonderful thing that works, where have you where have you seen it work joy like that.

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Joy J. Moore: Well, interestingly enough, one of the things the first time that I taught for Wesley biblical.

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Joy J. Moore: um I was struck I even set this to the class, I was struck was doing the spiritual formation demon cohort and I was struck by the diversity in the classroom.

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Joy J. Moore: That that that you just described in terms of percentages to be able to say that we were having a real conversation about racial issues and they were pastors from rural white Mississippi talking with pastors from rural black Mississippi.

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Joy J. Moore: Try and.

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Joy J. Moore: Urban on both sides of the.

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Joy J. Moore: tracks that that that language, and we were having hard conversations and, at the end of the day we all knew that we had a long way to go, and I just recently.

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Joy J. Moore: finished reading a book by authors seabrooks called love your enemies and in that he makes a statement or he makes a case from a statement that.

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Joy J. Moore: A black lives matter leader from New York.

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Joy J. Moore: made at a trump rally in Washington DC I think in September of 2017 and what the the black lives matter leader said to the folks that were gathered in DC was.

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Joy J. Moore: We have to do this together, now that was a political moment and politics governments across the world as we're seeing right now as we're trying to figure out what's going on in in the Ukraine.

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Joy J. Moore: Forgive me you're going to have to correct me on that one Okay, let me say that again as we try to figure out what's happening in Ukraine yeah i'm in, just in case you know it's not the Ukraine it's in Ukraine it's Ukrainian.

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Andy Miller III: And just yeah yeah.

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Joy J. Moore: Absolutely, and so, as we try and figure out what's going on up there, the reality is, this is a moment where the world.

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Joy J. Moore: has to do it together, and if it doesn't start anywhere, the glimpse of it is when the people of God get it right yeah it's when we are every nation every tongue every tribe together not coming together for what one of my students at fuller said, to give people a kumbaya moment.

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Joy J. Moore: it's where we're here's an example i'm.

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Joy J. Moore: The habitat for humanity project, where people from all walks walks of life come together to build a home right.

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Joy J. Moore: Yes, some people can build other people don't know how to you know put up wallpaper I mean that group.

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Joy J. Moore: me daily tell a hammer, from a from a screwdriver.

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Joy J. Moore: um but they all come together with this project in mind, and while they're working on that common project they build relationships across lines.

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Joy J. Moore: that's a much more fruitful way of Community building than sitting in a room together saying you're a guy i'm a Gal you're white i'm black we got to talk to each other.

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Andy Miller III: hahaha yeah.

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Andy Miller III: yeah.

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Joy J. Moore: And the Church is a place where we come together to hear this story of the Creator.

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Joy J. Moore: The creator God.

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Joy J. Moore: whose intention for this world has always been good yeah and it has been to form a community, the only time in all creation God said not like that was when, God created the human alone.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, yeah.

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Joy J. Moore: And so, God has always been, for me, a community and in forming a community we belong together, we need each other and if the world is going to see a gun so good, we have to do it with each other.

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Andy Miller III: amen I love that joy that is a great message right there I hate the power pivot back, I want to go back to asbury seminary and.

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Andy Miller III: Interesting switch that happened in your life there were you switched from being a.

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Andy Miller III: chaplain then working student development type of areas of asbury Seminary to get to be a humble X professor and teach preaching I mean that's Those are two very different things, so I talked to me about this.

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Andy Miller III: move towards it like that sounds like the preach teach thing you heard in high school kept on working itself out like through your through your vocation so to talk about this call to teach preachers or call or this one of us, a call maybe.

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Joy J. Moore: What you all yeah it's a call it's it's my vocational understanding and it has become increasingly clear to me as as I get older, I guess, and just you know what where's the place where we make the biggest impact, and right now institutions are feeling.

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Joy J. Moore: Governments theological education, you know everybody's struggling denominations churches.

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Joy J. Moore: Even the institution of family is struggling institutions, I can make that broad statement are failing, but the hunger.

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Joy J. Moore: That institutions have tried to meet is still out there and in the church we become an institution that has surfaced people and fail to give people their identity as being created in the image of God and.

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Joy J. Moore: Somebody attribute it to Plato that those who ruled the world tell the stories are those who tell the stories rule the world.

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Joy J. Moore: And that's what we do in in the moment we call the preaching moment is it's we don't give rules or give principles we tell our story.

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Joy J. Moore: it's what the communion table is it when I was a kid every Sunday we'd go to my grandmother's house and we'd have Sunday dinner you when you seen those movies in the black community that really is how many of us grew up.

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Joy J. Moore: At the Sunday dinner table at our grandmothers were the cousins the uncles and aunts come together and we hear the stories.

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Joy J. Moore: Of when our parents weren't perfect you know, because your parents, they try to tell you that they never made mistakes, but when you sit with Gramma Gramma tells our I remember when junior did that and you're like.

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Joy J. Moore: Daddy wow you know what that's what churches it's where we sit around the table.

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Joy J. Moore: And we hear the stories of our heritage, the stories of our parents and our for parents of generations before us where we became nieces and nephews where we were adopted in to a family.

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Joy J. Moore: And where did we come from what were our struggles How did we survive and if I if I use the story of the African American.

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Joy J. Moore: The enslaved Africans in on the continent of.

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Joy J. Moore: North America and also in Europe, but but will stay home for a moment and the continent of North America, they were told this religion by their enslavers.

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Joy J. Moore: And they rejected the religion, but having heard the story that revealed this God made known in Jesus Christ they wanted to know that God and they embraced the God of the Bible.

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Joy J. Moore: They rejected the religion right.

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Joy J. Moore: But they knew they wanted this creator God and and that's that's what's happening in our culture right now is people.

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Joy J. Moore: inside and outside of the church are rejecting the religions plural, that we have posted in the name of the creator God, but when they have the opportunity, and I say through the preached word.

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Joy J. Moore: and through the proclaimed witness.

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Joy J. Moore: Of the god made known in Jesus, they suddenly realized I want my life to be a chapter narrated into god's story, and for me that's what preaching is and still to teach another generation to do that is the calling that sense of my life.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, oh I love it and i've just joined the ranks, so to speak, of it, since I left the local church and now serving in the theological Academy.

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Andy Miller III: Teaching preaching, it is a thrilling environment kind of don't want all my car now you and I both served served and.

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Andy Miller III: i'm serving an administrative role right now.

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Andy Miller III: I kind of don't want my colleagues, you know how happy I am in teaching preachers I feel like I get I get to be the one I get to be the one who teaches preaching.

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Andy Miller III: like this is what people are going to be able to experience going out so i'd love for you to you know and now you've done this for a lot longer than me and.

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Andy Miller III: Could you help maybe some current preachers out what were some things that could help people that are often miss, I think we hear this emphasis that you have.

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Andy Miller III: In telling the story and realizing we're not just kind of like hammering down truth but there's a but there's this invitation this broad invitation, but what are some other things to that you could encourage us as people who maybe enjoy preaching and also preachers themselves.

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Joy J. Moore: Oh, one of the things that ellsworth countless who I didn't take preaching from him, I had the privilege of being a colleague with him.

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Andy Miller III: I teacher, by the way, and I think i'm.

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Andy Miller III: quoting him every day, I feel like.

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Joy J. Moore: Yes, yes, and I didn't have them and I steal from him all the time, but he was he was a wonderful person and in an incredible professor, but he used to always have folks a read good literature and I love reading, but I have to admit, I invite people now to watch good films.

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Joy J. Moore: Okay, because it is that telling of a story that reminds us, when you go to a movie they don't tell you.

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Joy J. Moore: find your character, you know there's No, this is how to watch the movie find the character you identify with follow these rules that these characters taught.

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Joy J. Moore: They don't they immersed you they invite you into the story, and then you just sit there, and you lean in.

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Joy J. Moore: And every once in a while they tell you a truth that you go Oh, my goodness that's not that's not fiction, I need to pay attention to that in my 24 seven 365 days.

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Joy J. Moore: A life and that's what we have the privilege of doing if we learn how to invite people into the creator's creation from new from original creation to new creation, because we forget our story doesn't begin with the fall.

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Joy J. Moore: So remind folks that God is recovering good not creating good from bad God is recovering the good we keep shoving aside, we keep pushing out of the story gotta say know that thread is central to the story so watching good movies and reading good books and then um.

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Andy Miller III: Let me interrupt you, if you forget now.

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Andy Miller III: What what be watch a movie or two that people preacher should watch like if you find out that I didn't watch this movie back end go watch it now.

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Joy J. Moore: So the hunger games.

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Joy J. Moore: games.

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Joy J. Moore: i'm sitting down for the Lord of the Rings and I know that's that's huge but what's really interesting about both of those is, you have a very different experience, reading the books from watching the movie and seeing what the.

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Joy J. Moore: The filmmakers and the riders did with the actual text is very interesting in terms of what they highlight to preserve the story.

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Joy J. Moore: And yet, invite you in visually because that's what our life as Christians it's to be we are to be the video clip of the biblical revelation of God were created to bear god's image on on earth, and so we are to live as Jesus did God in the flesh.

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Joy J. Moore: yeah and so learning and watching so those two of those two you know they're they're more than one movie yeah I I am I am addicted to the marvel universe.

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Andy Miller III: Are you.

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Joy J. Moore: Okay, and I, I have to admit i'm actually I was on a flight a couple of days ago and started the eternal and i'm going to have to go and finish it.

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Joy J. Moore: is totally against the rewrites I was like no.

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Joy J. Moore: You can't rewrite them, but what i'm finding that they're doing is what I just described and it's come out of this experience is that they are being faithful.

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Joy J. Moore: To the story, so that you have to know or you want to know the original story in order to understand this new chapter so there's no loss.

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Joy J. Moore: But there is the and i'm going to switch to biblical terms, there is this living word interesting So what we have to learn is, how is it that you make people say okay I didn't need to know that old story, because I kept referencing it but they haven't given it away.

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Joy J. Moore: yeah so so the marvel universe, and the other thing about the marvel universe.

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Joy J. Moore: Is it sort of like the books of the Bible 66 independent books written over time.

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Andy Miller III: Interesting yeah.

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Joy J. Moore: Cultures where you have iron man, you have spider man, you have Dr strange.

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Joy J. Moore: yeah you know over centuries of time different writers, different cultures, different stories, and yet they all are into woven together yeah.

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Joy J. Moore: scripture is interwoven around the revelation of the creator's god's intention to form a people who experience the good of the creator's creation I got redundant in there on purpose I didn't say it smoothly, but that's what it is.

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Joy J. Moore: it's yeah.

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Andy Miller III: it's all man pick up dust and it's good I think gives people permission.

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Andy Miller III: To do that, do you, what do you think about actually playing video clips in the sermon that that's a controversial point in.

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Andy Miller III: The academy haha melodic some people, I know, no, no, like when you do that you're inviting.

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Andy Miller III: Other stories into a story you're trying to tell and you don't know where it's going to take them, so I, or do you just you think you just tell the story yourself with the kind of the aim of where you're going what's your been your experience there.

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Joy J. Moore: So um when when you go to I just had some dental work done.

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Joy J. Moore: And when you go to the dentist they have all of these names for your teeth and and some of it, I found out is so that they can tell the difference between what we call the front tooth in the back teeth.

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Joy J. Moore: I don't want them pulling the wrong.

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Andy Miller III: tooth right right amen.

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Joy J. Moore: Well right, so they have all of these names.

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Joy J. Moore: When they're working I don't need to know all of that.

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Joy J. Moore: But after they've done dental work i'm curious and so it's like I don't want to be a dentist, but could you tell me what number 15 was right.

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Joy J. Moore: And that's what we want, we want people to hear a sermon that causes them to say and i'm going to switch a categories here how was that movie made.

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Joy J. Moore: And what was the cinematography that got.

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Joy J. Moore: That clip made and what we tend to do in the sermon is, we want to give all of the background.

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Joy J. Moore: yeah as opposed to give a movie a scene, a story that people say how did you do that, and we do that in Sunday school we do that in a conversation so in answer direct answer to your question.

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Joy J. Moore: i'm teaching in a Lutheran setting right now.

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Joy J. Moore: Okay, and so Lutherans have about 11 to 12 minutes.

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Joy J. Moore: For right what I would call a homily I grew up Baptist I can't even I can't even welcome you to church and 12.

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Joy J. Moore: And, and so, if that's all the time you have for corporate worship.

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Joy J. Moore: A three minute video clip.

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Joy J. Moore: or 32nd video clip.

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Joy J. Moore: Right it's a digression.

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Joy J. Moore: Right, but if you make a reference, so one of my references i'd like to use and and this I did when when the hunger games was.

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Joy J. Moore: On on the big screen right, and I would say let's revisit the capital city.

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Joy J. Moore: And, of course, if your hunger games fan, you know oh we're about to you know go to to find out what's happening and pen em and you know what what's happening with the with the with the Games right.

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Joy J. Moore: But no that's because your mind is steeped in a Hollywood film, the capital city i'm introducing you to is the capital city where Daniel and the three Hebrew boys were on internship.

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Joy J. Moore: And when you begin to realize that what you have are the best and the brightest.

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Joy J. Moore: Right, who are on and i'm going to use another one liner here on ethnic scholarship to Babylonian university.

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Joy J. Moore: Okay now that's all over what I, as an African American in the Academy can talk about, but what that causes people to say, is why would she saved that.

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Joy J. Moore: And because i'm serious about the biblical texts in Sunday school or if you confront me after church i'll say well in the exile what the babylonians did was they took the best and the brightest of the Jews.

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Joy J. Moore: And they train them up in the Babylonian way and that's where we get get introduced to Daniel and his three friends and so three ethnic scholars at the other cultures school.

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Joy J. Moore: In the capital city.

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Joy J. Moore: Where the 12 districts translation 12 tribes.

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Joy J. Moore: Yes, yeah so what story is really shaping your imagination and for the preacher we have this opportunity to know the New York Times best sellers list or to know what is headlining in the theaters to use that language to say those stories are copies of the best story ever.

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Andy Miller III: amen and.

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Joy J. Moore: That is the genesis to revelation story of the creator God demonstrated in the life of Jesus Christ.

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Andy Miller III: awesome beautiful.

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Andy Miller III: I hope I gave gave me example there is perfect now I interrupted you a second ago you said read read good books, you know and watch good movies, where you going on and something else, when I interrupted you.

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Joy J. Moore: That was about 10 minutes ago yeah and so yeah so, what was the thing.

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Andy Miller III: i'm thankful for the interruption.

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Joy J. Moore: No good great I love it and I can talk about preaching and and love doing that all the time, one of the things that in this is.

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Joy J. Moore: A trick of the trade, you know we used to talk about you have to have a great hook, you know that that opening line that causes people to lean in.

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Joy J. Moore: Well, what i've come to recognize again from watching good films.

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Joy J. Moore: Particularly in this one i'm going to add one I haven't mentioned, which was the Harry Potter series.

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Joy J. Moore: And Harry Potter when you read book seven.

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Joy J. Moore: you realize that over the previous books.

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Joy J. Moore: On jk Rowling has introduced it no has caused you to ask questions you didn't even know we're hanging on answered until you got to book seven and she tied them all up in a nice little bowl.

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Joy J. Moore: She knew, and if you read her story she'll tell you, she knew where she was going.

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Joy J. Moore: Right and so it's not just having a great introduction.

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Joy J. Moore: right but it's.

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Joy J. Moore: A great end and making sure that the end and the introduction tie up everything you revealed in the middle tightly in a nice little bow and I like to use.

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Joy J. Moore: I like to use the old film The wizard of Oz to describe this you meet all the characters in the black and white opening.

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Joy J. Moore: hmm and you are convinced of it, even though all of the technicolor story it's the same people in the same characters of characters.

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Joy J. Moore: Right, but you are convinced of it when you watch the last black and white scene and you go oh wow.

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Joy J. Moore: And then you want to watch it again.

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Joy J. Moore: Because you want to make sure you catch all of the innuendos it's a child saying to mommy and Daddy tell me that story, one more time and it's like Oh, if I have to read that story, if I have to watch frozen, one more time right.

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Joy J. Moore: What the biblical stories are yeah without the scenes that tell us the story of God, and we want to know where we're going.

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Joy J. Moore: and invite people in without giving it all away so they lean in and suspend their imagination to allow you to create a world that they say, I want to live there, because that's what good films that's what good stories that's what good storytellers do.

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Andy Miller III: And, and they don't necessarily they can give it all away, I remember real clear like watching them so excited to see.

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Andy Miller III: The new Star Wars when it came out like the sequels as they came and you wonder what's going to happen.

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Andy Miller III: What what's the story going to be, we know there's these new actors who evolved, but as the yellow letters came on the screen, the first line said wow I can't remember it now exactly but Luke skywalker is vanished.

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Andy Miller III: Right well wow that's pretty big I mean Luke skywalker is going to be somehow a part of this like he's a part of this story it's setting the stage for what's going on, it doesn't say.

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Andy Miller III: you're going to get Luke at the end of this movie right and by the end of this i'm going to tell you how Luke came into the story and i'll use.

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Andy Miller III: The something that begins with the letter L and a poem that says L and then i'll get to the end and then you'll see Luke but but there's this definite like intentional move of taking people on some sort of.

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Andy Miller III: trip invite him into a story, but if you start that way by saying you have to know where you're going to I think a lot of times it's not so clear that preachers do know where they're calling.

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Joy J. Moore: It right and there there, there are some folks for whom the only way they can stay on board is if they you tell them, these are my three points.

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Joy J. Moore: But rarely Is that how a movie, as you just described works and yet, people will fork out, you know, like a week's pay to take their family, to the theater.

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Joy J. Moore: to watch it on the big screen opening weekend and they have to buy popcorn and candy and you know get their their feet sticky from you know somebody who's filling in all of that.

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Joy J. Moore: Rather than wait a couple of months for it to come on why because they are being drawn in, and then they want to buy it so they can watch it at home.

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Joy J. Moore: Because while it's not the big screen first time they can go back and see the little twists and turns and that's what we have the privilege of doing, and if we know where we're going and we throw out that teaser Luke skywalker has finished.

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Joy J. Moore: yeah if you.

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Joy J. Moore: throw out that teaser that folks will hold on to, but they also would forget in wizard of Oz we forget that, like and won't seen until the very end, and as soon as it comes back soon as Luke skywalker is back in the movie it's like oh yeah that's right he's been gone.

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Joy J. Moore: yeah and they don't have to tell us Oh, remember, we told you at the beginning.

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Joy J. Moore: Yes, and so one of the things I like to say to folks I work with media.

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Joy J. Moore: And I say that.

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Andy Miller III: All like when people ask you what you do you say MEDIA I work with media.

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Joy J. Moore: And I say that because my students think the lecture model of teaching is so last century.

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Joy J. Moore: But if I say I work with media at lecture.

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Andy Miller III: yeah yeah.

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Joy J. Moore: Sure preaching, it is a media a mediated form of information.

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Joy J. Moore: But in a storyteller's world.

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Joy J. Moore: The three points three points in a prayer three points in a poem is not nearly as captivating as Luke skywalker is finished yeah.

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yeah.

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Andy Miller III: I love it oh joy, this is so good, I think I need to have a part two, and I think i've already up to a time when I asked for from you, I always Dame via podcast is more to this story, because we want to go deeper with people's.

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Joy J. Moore: Stories you i'm happy to interrupt you, I love that title, so you stole that from the I should have.

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Joy J. Moore: More to the story.

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Andy Miller III: Thank you.

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Joy J. Moore: I love it.

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Andy Miller III: yeah it part of it is like I want to have deeper conversations people I want the teaching like sometimes I it's not always just conversation sometimes it's just me teaching science me in conversation with folks.

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Andy Miller III: That there's an our culture we're not able to have substantive conversations and I think, like some of the big podcasters of our time have have really caught on this, since they have like three four hour long.

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Andy Miller III: podcast but also, I also see it in a theological sense that.

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Andy Miller III: there's in our tradition we've emphasized the work that God does and sanctify and grace and so there's more to the story than just getting your sins forgiven there's.

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Andy Miller III: The way God wants to sanctify us through and through so.

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Andy Miller III: I that's the idea behind more this story, but I also like to ask this question joy is there is there, something is there, more to the story with joy now we've heard a lot about you, we know the movie do you like we know where you're from.

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Andy Miller III: But what's something that people generally don't know about you that you'd be willing to share.

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Joy J. Moore: That that's not supposed to be such a hard hard question is it um.

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Joy J. Moore: To people not know about me.

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Andy Miller III: Are you a bears fan.

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Joy J. Moore: Because being from Chicago oh I I i'm not a big football fan.

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Okay.

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Joy J. Moore: though my nice place women's soccer and so i'm being educated in the real football, as our.

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Andy Miller III: Our yeah sure yeah.

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Joy J. Moore: um what people probably wouldn't know about me is i'm from the south side of Chicago and i'm a cubs fan.

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Andy Miller III: Oh wow well good.

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Joy J. Moore: Good i'm a cubs fan, because two reasons, the first one is very practical in that is.

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Joy J. Moore: Chicago public schools would take kids to baseball games and the cubs play during the day.

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Joy J. Moore: yeah so you get.

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Joy J. Moore: to know like hey.

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Joy J. Moore: yeah you get to go to really feel during the day, but my dad was a cubs fan because of ernie banks.

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Andy Miller III: Oh right.

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Joy J. Moore: Okay, let me ask this question.

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Andy Miller III: I have right here my wall, I have an array of wrigley field, I keep my parents serve the Salvation Army in andersonville area and then started the Salvation Army and displays I graduated high school and that, from that area.

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Andy Miller III: But I saw i'm a cubs fan and a bears fan.

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Andy Miller III: I 2016, I can tell you exactly where I was, I was with my boys, I was going to be speaking in Naples Florida I let them stay up with me the next generation of the cubs fan to watch that great moment and KRIS bryant.

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Andy Miller III: A picked up the ground ball where were you tell me about your when you the cubs one.

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Joy J. Moore: Ah i'm I I I.

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Andy Miller III: don't remember oh i'm sorry I didn't mean to call you out.

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Joy J. Moore: You can't do that you I.

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Joy J. Moore: i'll tell you why.

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Joy J. Moore: Okay um if you talk to any of the high schoolers at the churches that I served, they did not allow me to go to homecoming games, because if I root for a team, they lose.

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Andy Miller III: uh huh okay.

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Joy J. Moore: So I am a Duke fan because Duke is the only team that seems to be able to win with me as a fan.

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Joy J. Moore: And so I didn't watch that game, I took me a moment to remember why didn't I didn't watch it because I wanted them to well.

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Andy Miller III: Thank you.

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Joy J. Moore: A friend of mine, and I think you know or tammy Graham was texting me and she said, I remember now she said, you can turn on now comes there's no way you're going to lose so I did get to see the very last.

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Joy J. Moore: Okay.

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Andy Miller III: Well i'm so glad that you stayed away.

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Andy Miller III: Thank you for staying away hundred eight years.

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Important.

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Andy Miller III: Well joy Thank you so much we appreciate your ministry and i'll post some links here people and find the show notes, so your podcasts and some of the work that you've done.

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Andy Miller III: We appreciate what you've done for the church and and and kind of like our little sector of it in the evangelical Wesley and world it's such a blessing to have you be a part of it, and for the work you've done with Wesley.

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Andy Miller III: And the way the wesleyan summit that we are part of it means so much just joy thanks for coming on the podcast.

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Joy J. Moore: thanks for having me it was wonderful to be with you again andy.