St. Patrick’s Day, Should We Celebrate? Jeff Bakos
March 17, 2022
Should we celebrate St. Patrick’s Day? Jeff Bakos has embarked on an intense study of the historical tradition surrounding St. Patrick’s life and ministry and helps us think through the way we apply Patrick’s legacy today.
YouTube - https://youtu.be/GTaiKumSQAQ
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Here’s a link to the Prayer of St. Patrick -https://www.ourcatholicprayers.com/st-patricks-breastplate.html
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Transcript
Andy Miller
This is the more to the story podcast with Doctor Andy Miller.
We hope you guys enjoy today's conversation.
Speaker 1
Hey I am so glad you've come along to the more to the story podcast we have been going at this for almost a year now.
Speaker 1
We're coming up on our 52nd episode in just about a month, so there's a lot going on.
Speaker 1
Our appreciation and so many people who've come alongside this podcast in this time now today is Saint Patrick's Day. When this comes out and I thought it would be a great time for us to think about.
Speaker 1
Should we celebrate Saint Patrick's Day or not so right within the offices at Wesley, Biblical Seminary is a Saint Patrick Scholar.
Speaker 1
Believe it or not, there is such a thing.
Speaker 1
Jeff JeffBakos who is a registrar and IT director and amongst many other things that you do.
Speaker 1
Yeah so and he's working on dissertation on Saint Patrick, so Jeff.
Speaker 3
And thank you.
Speaker 1
Welcome to the podcast.
Jeff Bakos
Thank you for having me appreciate being here.
Speaker 1
I want to make sure just to highlight two.
Speaker 1
We have a few sponsors who have made this podcast happen WP.
Speaker 1
Element also in Bill Roberts financial planning.
Speaker 1
Our thanks to those folks.
Speaker 1
You can find their information in our show notes and other things like a whole backlog of podcasts we've had for some time.
Speaker 1
But Jeff, here's the thing. Like as we get going Saint Patrick's Day. I mean, some people might just see this as a time to, you know, get drunk or.
Speaker 1
Something like that.
Speaker 1
Would we even want it celebrates oh so?
Speaker 1
How did you come to study Saint Patrick?
Speaker 3
Yeah, that's it's.
Speaker 3
It's kind of an interesting journey.
Speaker 3
I've always loved theology.
Speaker 3
You know, I was a I was a biblical literature major at Indiana Wesleyan, but I loved the.
Speaker 3
Analogy and I was really interested in historical theology.
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, I'm.
Speaker 3
Less systematic, more historical, and I loved Celtic Christianity.
Speaker 3
I actually it.
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's the same.
Speaker 3
It was interesting.
Speaker 3
I I found an author named Stephen Lawhead who wrote a bunch of great historical.
Oh yeah.
Speaker 3
Celtic books I know.
Speaker 1
We've never talked about this, that the endless knot and all those things like what's that series?
Speaker 3
Called that I can't remember with that the silver hand.
Speaker 1
The silver hand, yeah.
Speaker 3
Yes, the silver hand and those not.
Speaker 3
There's another one.
Speaker 1
Paradise war.
Speaker 3
Paradise War in the region of the summer stars.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3
But he wrote one in particular, called the.
Speaker 3
We, uh, it's Robin Hood.
Speaker 1
OK, OK.
Speaker 3
Basically it's a story of Robin Hood.
Speaker 3
It's called the trilogy Hood Scarlet and tuck OK, and he basically took the idea of what if Robin Hood was an actual historical character.
Speaker 3
What it let's?
Speaker 3
Let's put him in history.
Speaker 3
Let's plop him down.
Speaker 3
About thousand eighty 1066. The Norman invasion, and so the idea is, let's move them from Brent to Wales. OK, interesting?
Speaker 3
And and so he recreates the the story of Robin Hood, in a way that puts him in Wales around the Norman invasion.
Speaker 3
And so he's fighting for his homeland.
Speaker 1
OK.
Speaker 3
So it's it'sa really interesting series.
Speaker 3
And so that got me.
Speaker 3
Started I guess down this path of discovering what Celtic Christianity is, and through that study you know there's there's a lot of myth around what is what is Celtic Christianity, and that's kind of a misnomer because culture, Christianity, Christianity.
Speaker 1
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 3
There's there's no real.
Speaker 3
Distinction, but like it's it's orthodox Christianity like it's there's nothing right.
Speaker 3
There's nothing more, I mean.
Speaker 3
You know, people say, oh, it's it's this distinct flavor.
Speaker 3
Yes, there are.
Speaker 3
There are always distinct flavors in different regions of the world, but there's nothing.
Speaker 3
Nothing really mystical about this.
Speaker 1
Right? Sure, in any country has its version it has. It's like cultural appropriation's yeah.
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3
Absolutely, and so that really got me started.
Speaker 3
And so I was in search of a pH.
Speaker 3
D program.
Speaker 3
After I graduated from Wesley Biblical Seminary.
There you go.
Speaker 3
After I graduated here I I wanted to do something in historical theology.
Speaker 3
I wanted to do something in Celtic.
Speaker 3
What I thought that time was distinctly cultural Christianity, and so I found the University of Wales Trinity St David and discovered my advisor who was an expert in Celtic hagiography and so from there I discovered that no one had really done any sort of theological.
Speaker 1
Yeahyeahyeahyeah.
Speaker 1
OK.
Speaker 3
Work on the life of Saint Patrick, which was written.
Speaker 3
Come in around 660 too late. Set to.
Speaker 3
700 about yeah.
Speaker 1
Something interruptyou real quick sounds like what you're saying.
Speaker 1
Nobody done work on the life of Saint Patrick.
Speaker 1
People might not realize that you'reyou'reactually talking about the title of a book.
Speaker 3
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1
Yeah, so like yeah and people have done done it, but you're saying that nobody actually looked at the theological assumptions, the historical accuracy or what's assumed by the hagiography of the book, the Life of Saint Patrick.
Speaker 3
Yes yes.
Speaker 3
So I'm studying Saint Patrick kind of second hand if you will.
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 3
So I'm studying a life of Saint Patrick was written by author named Murchu.
Speaker 3
So between the the most accurate data is 760 to 800, No 66. Sorry 660 to 700. OK, we know we can date it within that range.
Speaker 1
Biography not by Patrick himself.
Speaker 3
That's so not Saint Patrick himself, but what is interesting is that we have first hand accounts from Saint Patrick.
Speaker 1
OK, interesting.
Speaker 3
And so we have two writings from him.
Speaker 3
The letters to the soldiers of Caratacus and then a confession of Saint Patrick, which is it's a defense of his ministry in life, basically.
Speaker 3
And so my author base.
Speaker 3
Almost the first, the one the one in the in the the 766 hundreds 7th century 7th century 6 hundreds.
Speaker 1
One in seven hundreds.
Speaker 1
Got you 7th century?
Speaker 3
He based a lot almost the first third are based on the confession gotcha and so in doing research you know you have to read.
Speaker 3
The confession if you want to understand what my author was trying to convey so they they play off each other.
Speaker 3
They my author expands a little bit.
Speaker 3
He he brings in some biblical allusions that are really interesting.
Speaker 3
There's a lot of mosaic allusions.
Speaker 3
And and Saint Patrick himself saw, saw himself as asa almost a mosaic.
Speaker 3
You know bringing Christianity to Ireland, my author expands upon that and brings in, just as Moses did in the desert.
Speaker 3
You know things, things like that there's strong illusions to correlate what Patrick is doing with with almost a mosaic mosaic figure gotcha.
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 3
So it's really it's so.
Speaker 3
I'm studying Saint Patrick.
Speaker 3
Trick 2nd through the lens of muruku through the lens of his.
Speaker 1
Right, right?
Speaker 1
Hagiography so hagiography is this idea.
Speaker 1
They want to explain what hagiography is.
Speaker 3
So hagiography the best way I can explain it, it is biography that is fantastic.
Speaker 3
Interesting, it wasn't meant to be read historically.
Speaker 3
Yeah, that's not its purpose, it's more.
Speaker 3
Now I want to be careful here because we can get into some little bit of sticky situation.
Speaker 3
It's it's meant to be read more theological.
Speaker 3
There are historical underpinnings and and Moore says that he's he's writing on the traditions passed down by his father's passed down through holy men who have preserved the.
Speaker 1
Right, right, right.
Speaker 3
The memory of Saint Patrick and my text is really unique. Like I said, because hehe has a first hand account, he has Patrick's own writings to go off of.
Speaker 3
But only for the 1st.
Speaker 3
Half of the book right?
Speaker 3
Right, really the first third of the book.
Speaker 3
The rest of the book is tradition that had been handed down, and so hagiography is.
Speaker 3
It's a, it's a fantastic biography and so we have very early hagiographical accounts of life.
Speaker 3
So saying so, Athanasius wrote the life of Saint Anthony.
Speaker 3
Uh, we have the life of Saint Martin that is very early, so we have a very early tradition of the desert fathers.
Right?
Speaker 3
I mean other and so he's very much in a stream of literature.
Speaker 1
Hagiographic literature, yeah, so so this is really important.
Speaker 1
'cause some people might already.
Speaker 1
Be pushing back.
Speaker 1
To this because it calls into question.
Speaker 1
Historical reality in general, so you oh, so now you're saying that Saint Patrick didn't exist or you say none of this is real.
Speaker 1
You're just kind of saying, well, couldn't you just do that with the resurrection?
Speaker 1
All the resurrection didn't have?
Speaker 1
I know we won't get into that here butbut we're talking about something very different in a different set of historical data.
Speaker 1
That we're working withwithwith Rand and sometimes a word.
Speaker 1
You're talking about a very specific type.
Speaker 1
Of literature, some people within historical studies often will talk about hagiography and the problems of hagiography like for instance in in my study of William Booth there are hagiographic.
Speaker 1
Through the reporting of his life and so they'll be biographies over and they're all positive, like there's not one negative thing about what nothing like really showing the real color of his life.
Speaker 1
So that's not hagiography in the tradition of what you're talking about.
Speaker 1
Like what happens they pet, but there are hagiographic aspects, yes, and I'll give you just one example like.
Speaker 1
From William Booth's life. Like the there's this one of the most famous scenes that happens is that before he dies, supposedly.
Speaker 1
He has his speech that is emblazoned in bronze on most Salvation Army buildings.
Speaker 1
It says I'll fight, I'll fight to the very end while while women weep as they do now, I'll fight.
Speaker 1
So the reason I say that is it's likely that that didn't happen, that he'd actually didn't say that now is it something that he would have said is in the spirit of him?
Speaker 1
Absolutely can't I take inspiration from that?
Speaker 1
But did he actually?
Speaker 1
You know a couple of days before he died.
Speaker 1
Go up and give this speech.
Speaker 1
Probably not.
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, absolutely that that's a great example, and where we get, I mean, this is where we get the term.
Speaker 3
Oh that's hagiographical whenwhen we say that we are meaning that it's a fantastic element.
Speaker 1
Right, right, right.
Speaker 2
OK.
Speaker 3
And so, but I want I also want to be careful to know that just because something is hagie hagiographical doesn't mean that it.
Speaker 3
Didn't happen right, right?
Speaker 1
It's still it's.
Speaker 3
Still, I mean, we believe in the resurrection.
Speaker 1
Yes Amen yeah.
Speaker 3
That is the most quote hagiographical thing.
Speaker 3
I mean, we we it's fantastic.
Speaker 1
It's yeah.
Speaker 3
I mean, but we believe it, and we know that it was a historical certainty.
Speaker 3
It's a historical reality, and if we believe that, then why can't we believe that?
Speaker 3
Saint Patrick identified a drop of poison that was in his cup.
Speaker 3
Froze the liquid.
Speaker 3
Like all except for the poison and the poison dropped out and he was able to unfreeze the liquid and drink with no side effects.
Speaker 3
That is a much less of a miracle, at least in my opinion, as the resurrection of Jesus himself.
Speaker 1
Right, sure.
Speaker 3
So just because something is hagiographical, there's supernatural reality in Christianity that.
Speaker 1
There's supernatural reality, yeah?
Speaker 3
That's a fact.
Speaker 3
So we wehave to be careful and saying in discounting the historicity of some of the hagiographical elements.
Speaker 1
Right, right, right, right.
Speaker 3
And so that's where there has that.
Speaker 3
What there has been a lot of work in?
Speaker 3
Is identifying historical Patrick interesting?
Speaker 1
If it's better than.
Speaker 3
That's that a lot.
Speaker 3
There's been a lot of.
Speaker 3
Work in some.
Speaker 1
But what do we know?
Speaker 1
Actually, what can we know about Saint Patrick?
Speaker 3
So we can know that he lived in the 5th century. So from about most scholars believe 432 was when he arrived. OK, so we have we have early documents of Palladius.
Speaker 3
Actually, some scholars think that Palladius is Patrick and that they're one of the same, and he was sent by the Pope to evangelize, and to less evangelized.
Speaker 2
OK.
Speaker 3
But to support the Christian tour already in Ireland, that's another misnomer mistake that people make is that they assumed that Patrick was the first one to introduce Christianity, Christianity.
Speaker 3
Had already been established, I mean, people traded all the time between the British, British Isles and Ireland.
Right?
Speaker 3
There was trade.
Speaker 3
There was commerce, and so Christianity had been introduced.
Speaker 3
There were Christians there.
Speaker 3
That's why the Pope sent Palladius.
Speaker 3
So we have that.
Speaker 3
So we know that there are Christians in there.
Speaker 3
And and we know that Patrick wrote the confession.
Speaker 3
He wrote the letters of the letter to the soldiers of Coroticus
Speaker 3
So we have those first hand documents and so. But the best guess is that he operated in Ireland from about 432 to as late as four 9293.
Speaker 3
We have two different.
Speaker 3
Uh, obet obituaries of him. One that there's there's a Patrick that dies in 464, yeah. And then one who dies in four 9293 and so the scholar. The debate has been then what? Which one is correct?
Speaker 3
That is not the concern of my research.
Speaker 1
Right, sure, sure.
Speaker 3
That's not the concern of my research, so I that's kind of where things are.
Speaker 1
But that's just kind of where.
Speaker 1
Things are yeah.
Speaker 3
So we know.
Speaker 3
That he operated sometime in the the 5th century.
Speaker 3
We know that.
Speaker 3
Christianity in Ireland flourished in the 5th century. We know from Patrick's own writings that he.
Speaker 3
New both the Vulgate.
Speaker 1
The Latin.
Speaker 3
The Latin translation, which which Jerome would have written at the beginning of the 5th century, so we know it would have taken some time for that to disseminate to Ireland.
Speaker 1
Of the Bible.
Speaker 1
Yeah, sure, Justine.
Speaker 1
Right to get all the way there.
Speaker 3
But so we he uses the Vulgate, but he also uses the old.
Speaker 3
Translations as well of of particularly the Old Testament.
Speaker 1
OK.
Speaker 3
And so that tells us that.
Speaker 3
It's a, it's a very good.
Speaker 3
Very, very good historical evidence that places him in the 5th century no earlier than that and the Ireland became thoroughly Christian.
Speaker 3
Within the 5th century, into the into the 6th and 7th, where my author lives.
Speaker 3
Now my author lives in a time where it's it is Christian, but there are still Pagan elements as well there.
Speaker 3
I mean, paganism still.
Speaker 3
Was very widespread during that during that time.
Speaker 3
Just like just like it is today, really, I mean.
Speaker 1
Yeahyeahyeah, you could say you're in.
Speaker 1
A Christian country, it's.
Speaker 3
Exactly, yeah.
Speaker 1
OK, so let's back up.
Speaker 1
So they what is it that we miss about what?
Speaker 1
What is not true about Saint Patrick like?
Speaker 3
OK.
Speaker 1
Let's get this up but we we kind of know about what.
Speaker 1
What did Pobel leader in his church probably was.
Speaker 1
You know, illiterate, probably able to communicate.
Speaker 1
And it served to bring Christianity into more prominence in that region.
Speaker 1
But what what do?
Speaker 1
We miss about what's wrong.
Speaker 3
So some of the myths.
Speaker 3
OK, so there's this myth that he used a.
Speaker 3
Clover yes too.
Speaker 1
And everything is green today, yeah?
Speaker 3
And the the green thing that he used the Clover to explain the Trinity.
Speaker 3
There is no evidence for that therethere is no early evidence that he did that that would be actually heretical.
Speaker 1
OK.
Speaker 3
He was trained.
Speaker 3
My author says that he went to Spain to try.
Speaker 3
Brain his own account is kind of.
Speaker 3
Gray in that area there there's not a whole lot that he himself gives of his training, but tradition states that he trained in Gaul.
Speaker 3
He was actually on his way to Rome to be trained when he met somebody in in in Gaul and said this person is amazing and so he sat at his feet and learned some say.
Speaker 3
30 years, some say 40 years before he went to Ireland to be a missionary.
Speaker 3
Uhm, so uh?
Speaker 3
We know that he was thoroughly orthodox.
Speaker 3
We know that he did.
Speaker 3
He knew heresy.
Speaker 3
He knew about Pelagius.
Speaker 3
He knew he knew the Pelagian heresy and and so we can.
Speaker 3
It's it'spretty unlikely that he would have used a Clover to teach on the Trinity.
OK.
Speaker 3
I mean it, it's it's.
Speaker 3
It's, it's modalism.
Speaker 3
It's it's a form of modalism.
Speaker 3
And he would have known that.
Speaker 3
OK, so probably didn't use that.
Speaker 3
The whole snakes and have you heard this one?
Speaker 3
He drove out the snakes in Ireland.
Speaker 1
Right right yes yesyes.
Speaker 3
Yeah, so that's one of those things that that there were never snakes in Ireland.
Speaker 1
OK.
Speaker 3
So that let's try to explain this.
Speaker 3
Why aren't there any steaks?
Speaker 3
Well, Saint Patrick the patron St of Ireland he.
Speaker 3
Drove them out.
Speaker 3
There were none to begin with.
Speaker 3
That's just, uh, that's that's a myth.
Speaker 3
That's that's a complete myth.
Speaker 3
So the idea of gettinggetting cold totally drunk on Saint Patrick's Day. I mean they had different different views of alcohol. Actually they they drank beer. They they brewed beer so but.
Speaker 3
Probably not gonna get wasted.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3
You know he's probably a little bit more temperate than that.
Speaker 3
It's interesting 'cause he he places himself and we know this from his confession within the aesthetic tradition.
Speaker 3
So he he we don't know if he actually took monastic vows when I say ascetic tradition, I mean kind of the monastic tradition.
Speaker 3
We don't know if he took monastic vows, but we do know that he saw himself within that tradition, so there are different there are.
Speaker 3
Elements within his confession that place it place him within that.
Speaker 3
So the idea of solitude he he has a wandering in the desert, very reminiscent of the desert fathers.
Speaker 3
People like, say Anthony Martin, yes, all of those all of those desert fathers.
Speaker 1
OK, so like could you just go back in and give me like a real quick bullet point of of like kind of what we know we'll go back to the myths of what we know of his life 'cause like wasn't there something like he is kidnapped or this happy so like just hit those people?
Speaker 3
Yeahyeahyeah.
Speaker 3
So he states in his confession that he was at 16 years old.
Speaker 3
He was kidnapped with thought he says thousands upon thousands of others and taken to Ireland.
Speaker 3
So he is actually captive in Ireland.
Speaker 3
So he works as a shepherd.
Speaker 1
OK.
Speaker 3
Again, the mosaic ties right so he works as this.
Speaker 3
Shepherd for six years he's he's a slave until he and that is where he that is where he's converted.
Speaker 1
OK.
Speaker 3
So he he admits that he his grandfather was a priest, his father was a Deacon, but he himself admits that he did not fear God.
Speaker 3
He was nominal at best.
Speaker 3
He knew.
Speaker 3
About the.
Speaker 3
Faith, but it wasn't until his his captivity that God got ahold of his heart and he says that he awoke something in him that he would pray constantly.
Speaker 3
He says 100 times a day and 100 times at night, again within.
Speaker 1
He felt his heart strangely warmed back.
Speaker 3
That he felt exactly he felt.
Speaker 3
This heart, strangely warm and so.
Speaker 3
During this time he heard from God and he said, go.
Speaker 3
Be be free your your ship is ready. It's it's a long ways away. It's about 200 miles on.
Speaker 3
That's not 200 miles as the bird flies, it's probably winding away, but it's 200 miles away and so he goes and he walks in.
Speaker 3
He doesn't know where he's going or oror what what he's supposed to do.
Speaker 3
He knows the boat has been made ready and so.
Speaker 3
He goes, eventually, finds himself at the sea, and there's a group of pagans and and he, he says, can I come with you and they agree they take him on.
Speaker 3
Now he's very, very.
Speaker 3
Careful about not associating himself with pagans.
Speaker 3
And so he says he refused to be that close closely, akin to them there there was a aspect of if we're going to take you on, you become one of us, and he says, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 3
I'm not one of you OK, and so there's that that that distinction, and so.
Speaker 3
He boards the ship and this is from his confession, so he boards the.
Speaker 3
Ship he sets sail. He eventually gets to a place where hehe goes through a desert for 28 days and he leads.
Speaker 3
The people leaves his his group of pagans that he was through the desert and he provides them food.
Speaker 3
A miraculous event.
Speaker 3
And and he hewrites us that, that he they were starving, they were grumbling.
Speaker 3
And so he prayed that he would.
Speaker 3
He was fasting at this time.
Speaker 3
He was told to fast.
Speaker 3
God told him to fast, and so he he prays and provides this food for them.
Speaker 1
Many thanks.
Speaker 3
He does not.
Speaker 3
A man in the wilderness, and so he does not partake because it had been.
Speaker 3
Sacrificed to pay to Pagan gods, so he's still fasting during the night.
Speaker 3
He's attacked spiritually to the point where he could not move.
Speaker 3
He was immobile and he cries out for help and he says, I firmly believe that the Lord met me there and I said there was darkness.
Speaker 3
All around and I saw the light come and expel the darkness interesting and so he's safe from this he eventually another mosaic theme.
Speaker 1
Another mosaic theme.
Speaker 3
He eventually.
Speaker 3
Comes home but andthat that's where that's where the confession kind of stops.
Speaker 3
As far as the autobiography autobiography.
Speaker 3
And so he goes home.
Speaker 3
He hears what it's called the voice of the Irish.
Speaker 3
A man, Nick victorious appears to him and and is carrying letters.
Speaker 3
He says these are the voice of the Irish begging you to return, begging you to come back as a missionary, and so from that point he then goes back.
Speaker 3
My author takes him to Gaul and it'sit's a whole big thing, but as far as what we know from his confession, he then goes back.
Speaker 3
It's interesting because even to this day, that phrase voice of the Irish is still on stamps.
Speaker 3
Irish stamps has it's in Latin, but it says voice of the Irish right there.
Speaker 3
And so it's embedded into the culture into the Irish culture so that I think that's really interesting.
Speaker 3
So we know that he was extremely pious.
Speaker 3
We know that he was a man of prayer.
Speaker 3
We he describes in his confession that as he's agonizing over the state of the the spiritual state of Ireland, he's agony.
Speaker 3
He does, he says.
Speaker 3
He doesn't even know what to pay, but the spirit was at work in him praying on his behalf, wow.
Speaker 3
And so we know that he was a man of prayer.
Speaker 3
We know that he had an impactful ministry in Ireland.
Speaker 3
The reason he writes his confession is 'cause people questioned it.
Speaker 3
People were questioning what God was doing through him, and so he says, listen.
Speaker 3
Uh, this is what this is what the Lord has been doing.
Speaker 3
We know that he had resistance within the church.
Speaker 3
Maybe it was jealousy, yeah?
Speaker 3
Maybe there was some politics going on which is which is most likely trying to delegitimize his ministry.
Speaker 3
Yeah, so we know.
Speaker 3
That he he.
Speaker 3
He was there, was resistance to his ministry.
Speaker 3
And and so he was a man of prayer.
Speaker 3
But he was also a man of conviction.
Speaker 3
He saw monastic vows as a very positive thing.
Speaker 3
He valued human life.
Speaker 3
He this is one of the first instance that we have of someone speaking out to the slave trade.
Speaker 3
Wow in his letters.
Speaker 3
The soldiers of Praticas.
Speaker 3
He's like he's he's basically saying what are you doing making captive Christians right?
Speaker 3
What do you?
Speaker 3
What's going on here?
Speaker 3
The We're all Christians here.
Speaker 3
We can't be taking other Christians captive.
Speaker 3
That's so he was very early on against the practice of slavery at least.
Speaker 3
Christians enslaving Christians.
Speaker 1
Right and and I like like you said, Chris and maybe didn't have the distinctions that we would have at this point.
Speaker 3
No we wouldn't.
Speaker 1
But yeah, there's something that's not right.
Speaker 1
There's something not.
Speaker 1
Right here, really going.
Speaker 3
He identifies there's something morally not.
Speaker 3
Right, and so he speaks out against it.
Speaker 3
Yeah, and the later tradition says that Caratacus himself was transformed into a fox and is never seen again.
Oh wait.
Speaker 3
So yeah, he speaks out against it.
Speaker 3
And Coroticus basically says I don't care, I'm still going to do it and he's transformed into a fox so.
Speaker 2
Which is it?
Speaker 3
That's kind of a fun, fun story.
Speaker 1
So like, let's see if we can like what it, what it where I like the two things like I'm gonna push it to get two things that we should reasons why we should honor this legacy of Saint Patrick for our time.
Speaker 3
Reasons why should we should honor Saint Patrick's legacy? He did.
Speaker 3
Even just for the work that he did in Ireland like he he is, I won't say solely responsible 'cause I think that would be a little too much, but he that would be a little hagiographic.
Speaker 3
But he is in large part responsible for the Christian nation of Ireland.
Speaker 3
He was a powerful missionary, and he's an example.
Speaker 3
Of someone that we can look up to, one he he.
Speaker 3
He stood up for what was right, what he thought was more like he stood up for his.
Speaker 3
He stood up for his ministry what God was doing in in Ireland, what God was doing through.
Speaker 3
Him and he gives all the credit to God.
Speaker 3
He does he.
Speaker 3
He does not say it'sit's me or my programs or my preaching.
Speaker 3
Or he says this is what God has been doing.
Speaker 3
Yeah yeah.
Speaker 3
And so his so his his missionary work is something that we need to celebrate.
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, sure.
Speaker 3
We need to celebrate that.
Speaker 3
And I I think his his, his humility and piety, is something that we can.
Speaker 3
A lot of church.
Speaker 3
Readers can learn from'cause it's not about a program.
Speaker 3
It's not about a personality.
Speaker 1
Look into.
Speaker 3
Platform, it's not about developing a platform or anything like that.
Speaker 3
He is constantly deflecting off of himself and onto the work that God is doing through him.
Speaker 3
Yeah, and that is, uh.
Speaker 3
Leadership lesson that we can take.
Speaker 1
I love it.
Speaker 3
Yeah, he he spent his he he, he never saw himself as Irish but he he there is recognition that he is here for the long haul and he is here till death.
Speaker 2
Wow, yeah.
Speaker 3
He never saw himself as going back wow.
Speaker 3
See, that's all.
Speaker 1
Or burn the ship, so to speak.
Speaker 3
Yeah, he he basically he burned, burned the ships.
Speaker 1
So there, but there is a fame that some of the famous sayings from the confessions like what?
Speaker 1
Are some of those?
Speaker 3
So probably his most famous saying is falsely attributed to him.
Speaker 3
Sadly it's a light like the William Booth.
OK.
Speaker 3
It's is he.
Speaker 3
Would probably have said.
Speaker 3
It, but his the the prayer that is written on the Saint Patrick breastplate.
Speaker 3
It's very very famous Christ before me.
Speaker 3
Christ in me, Christ Christ, when I rise, Christ, when I lie down.
Speaker 3
That that whole prayer very very famous.
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3
It is a prayer that is modeled after the armor of God.
Speaker 3
It's it's a prayer of protection.
Speaker 3
And we see that theme throughout Patrick's life. God had divinely protected him in in multiple multiple instances and and so that's his most famous I guess saying.
Speaker 3
But did he say it?
Speaker 3
Did he not I II only he actually has this really interesting phrase that he says.
Speaker 3
Only God knows only only God knows, but uhm.
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 3
So as far as like the sayings go, it'sit's hard to identify one or two because we just don't know.
Speaker 1
But but that statement is something that we could that that still is in the spirit of him.
Speaker 1
Like, certainly like it's something as you're working with your kids and you talk about your kids like, why, why, why are you wearing green today or what?
Speaker 3
Oh absolutely.
Speaker 1
What well let's?
Speaker 1
Think about who Saint Patrick is.
Speaker 1
We point back to historical figure.
Speaker 1
The prayer of Saint Patrick.
Speaker 1
It's a beautiful prayer.
Speaker 3
It's beautiful plan.
Speaker 1
Then to bring up on St.
Speaker 1
Patrick's Day, right?
Speaker 3
Oh absolutely, absolutely it's a.
Speaker 3
It's a beautiful prayer.
Speaker 3
It is in within the perdition patrician spirit.
Speaker 3
It it, it's something that.
Speaker 3
We Christian should know it's one of those parts of Doctor Friedman here, a professor here at Wesley Biblical Seminary.
Speaker 3
He has this discipleship and age 18 list that he calls.
Speaker 3
Then he goes through and this age 18 listen.
Speaker 3
One of the things that he does is the meal time.
Speaker 3
Meal times are are very, very important to him.
Speaker 3
And so one of the things that they would do is memorize famous prayers, yeah.
Speaker 3
And so I love that idea of memorizing famous prayers.
Speaker 3
And this should be on the list of those famous prayers.
Speaker 3
If if it's not, it should be on the list of every single person who whowho prays the prayers of the Saints and andwe should we should.
Speaker 3
Know yeah it's good.
Speaker 1
To some people that in the in their traditions.
Speaker 1
It's not something really.
Speaker 1
Prayers are always spontaneous or extemporaneous, but there is some real power.
Speaker 1
Taking somebody else's words and praying them yourself. That's the psalms. Maybe people do that, but taking Saint Patrick this this prayer in the tradition of Saint Patrick and praying it, that would be a great.
Speaker 3
Oh it would.
Speaker 3
Be, it'd be a fantastic thing and I, I think going back to spontaneous prayer, I think that's.
Speaker 3
In a large part, why people are they don't pray in public or they don't know what to pray right?
Speaker 3
And so there's been this stigma of.
Speaker 3
Well, if I don't know what to pray and I'm just kind of not going to pray it.
Speaker 3
But if we destigmatize scripted prayers in our evangelical circles, I think that would transform the prayer life.
Speaker 3
Of many, many people I've just said, it's OK if you don't know what to pray, it's OK to take a prayer from Scripture or a prayer from one of the one of the Saints and make that your own.
Speaker 2
Right?
Speaker 1
Right, right, right.
Speaker 1
Yeah, sure yeah.
Speaker 3
Make that your make those words your own pray.
Speaker 3
As if you were paying them for the very first time.
Speaker 3
Yeah, and when you do that, it transforms the way.
Speaker 3
You pray.
Speaker 1
So if you look in the show notes, I'll make sure to put it in there.
Speaker 1
We'll have a copy, it'll have a link to, or knows I'll probably put in the show notes that has the Saint Patrick prayer or something you could use.
Speaker 1
Maybe we could even come upthe way like we could share it in a kind of a printable way or.
Speaker 2
Sure, sure.
Speaker 1
It's more attractive.
Speaker 1
We could put down there, put a link.
Speaker 1
In there, so yeah, that's great. Oh, I love that emphasis. Anything else that you wanted to say about Saint Patrick? I know you have like almost a 400 page dissertation is.
Speaker 3
Yeah yeah, the whole whole this or dissertation of, well, not a whole dissertation.
Speaker 3
Hopefully yeah, I'm still still working on it till people I think I'm halfway through.
Speaker 1
Hey, it's working.
Speaker 1
It'll be there.
Speaker 3
I'm not entirely sure, but.
Speaker 3
What I mean?
Speaker 1
Anything else you wanted to say?
Speaker 3
Anything else I want to say?
Speaker 3
I mean, there's so much to say about Saint Patrick, but the thing that I always highlight is that he was a man of humility.
Speaker 3
He was a man of prayer.
Speaker 3
He was a man who who stood up when it was when God called him to.
Speaker 1
Yeah, sure, he responded that call to go back to Ireland, yeah?
Speaker 3
I mean, he was very he.
Speaker 3
He responded to the call.
Speaker 3
To go back to the people who enslaved him.
Speaker 3
Wow, the actually thethe first thing that he does.
Speaker 3
Is dumb.
Speaker 3
Again, this is this is my author, my author, the first thing he does is not go directly to the King of Ireland.
Speaker 3
He goes up to where he was taken captive in the hopes that he could repay and buy his freedom.
Speaker 3
Wow, 'cause he does, he wants to start his ministry.
Speaker 3
A place of a freedom, and so he says, I ran away, right?
Speaker 1
He did the wrong thing, so this big guy left left.
Speaker 3
He did the wrong thing.
Speaker 3
He did the longer hehe left his master, and so he's he wants to go and buy his freedom, right?
Speaker 3
So that he can start his ministry from the thethe moral places is how he would have seen it.
Right, right?
Speaker 3
This is the moral thing.
Speaker 3
To do and.
Speaker 3
He goes there and his, his former master says, I see this Patrick coming.
Speaker 3
I don't want to be.
Speaker 3
I don't want to bow.
Speaker 3
I know if he comes to me I'm gonnahave to bow my knee to him.
Speaker 3
And so he decides instead of bowing my Anita Patrick, I'm going to burn myself in my wealth.
Speaker 3
Oh my, and so he takes everything that he owns and puts it in his house and sets it on fire.
Speaker 3
So Patrick sees this from afar and says.
Speaker 3
God knows.
Speaker 3
That that that's that's his response.
Speaker 3
Only God knows, and so he turns away and the first convert.
Speaker 3
Happens right then he meets this.
Speaker 3
He meets something.
Speaker 3
When he first arrives he meets this good man.
Speaker 3
And he converts.
Speaker 3
He converts to the faith right away.
Speaker 3
Wow, and so it's within that context that the first convert.
Speaker 3
Is isis set, so it's really, really interesting, but he was a man who.
Speaker 1
Maybe just be kind of like the the assumption there is his obedience at that.
Speaker 1
He went back to do what he supposed to do and after he took that obedient action, that's when the fruit started to come.
Speaker 3
He was obedient to what God called him to do, and that could not have been an easy, easy task.
Speaker 3
I mean this was this was Pagan territory.
Speaker 3
This was this was outside of Chris Noah.
Speaker 3
I mean so we have, you know, the the Great Commission, right, Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and to the ends.
Speaker 3
Of the earth.
Speaker 3
This was the end of.
Speaker 3
The earth, yeah, sure.
Speaker 3
There was an eschatalogical view that he himself had.
Speaker 3
He was ushering in the end days.
Speaker 3
Because this was the end of the earth there.
Speaker 3
Was no where else to.
Speaker 1
There's nowhere else to go like you're at.
Speaker 3
The last place here at the last place in.
Speaker 3
So Patrick himself saw that this was fulfilling the Great Commission he was fulfilling scripture here, yeah, and so that a lot of people took issue.
Speaker 3
With that too.
Speaker 3
Sure, a lot of people took issue with that, but he saw himself as being that ends of the Earth missionary, right?
Speaker 3
That had to take courage that had to take.
Speaker 3
Something special within himself to say this is this is outside.
Speaker 3
This is outside the Kingdom.
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah and.
Speaker 3
This is outside the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of God has not expanded this far, yet we're going into our charted territory.
Speaker 1
Wording is powerful.
Speaker 1
Being in end of the Earth Christian.
Speaker 1
I like, I've never.
Speaker 1
I've never.
Speaker 1
Even heard that term.
Speaker 1
Like to describe it that way.
Speaker 1
OK, well I think this is great Jeff.
Speaker 1
Thank you so much for taking time to talk through this.
Speaker 1
I know it's like just it's all around you right now.
Speaker 1
You're thinking about it through the and also.
Speaker 1
This is a unique approach to going back and looking at the way the hagiography happened.
Speaker 1
But also what this tells us and how this can inspire.
Speaker 1
So thank you for taking time and then from a scholarly side to do.
Speaker 1
It, but also to kind of.
Speaker 1
Bring it down to the.
Speaker 1
This level for us that it is.
Speaker 3
Absolutely, and that's that's my goal.
Speaker 3
At the end of this project, you know you do this scholarly work so that, at least in my view, I'm doing this Cal work so that I can say, OK, why?
Speaker 3
Why is this important?
Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3
Why should we study the lives of the Saints?
Speaker 3
Why should the people in the Pew, the pastors who are preaching?
Speaker 3
Why should we care about these things?
Speaker 3
The hagiography doesn't need to be scary.
Speaker 3
Yeah, there is a grand tradition of the communion of Saints that we miss in our evangelical circles, and so if we can say if we can say these are holy people, that we that are steadfast in the faith that are courageous in the faith in and who are imitating Jesus himself.
Speaker 1
Yeah, sure yeah.
Speaker 3
And so I want to be.
Speaker 3
To imitate Jesus, I want to imitate right Patrick, I want to in it, that's what Paul.
Speaker 1
Yeah, I like how you brought the communion of Saints like that's part of what we're talking about here and last.
Says Paul says
Speaker 1
This guy just talked a class in Mexico on ecclesiology and so again, this is a part of what we affirm the apostles creed.
Speaker 1
I believe forgiveness, since the communion of Saints.
Speaker 1
This is this is a part of the call, like a part of being a Christian is celebrating and looking what God has done in the past.
Speaker 3
Yeah, absolutely, Paul says.
Speaker 3
Imitate me as I imitate Christ.
Speaker 3
Yeah, so that is what we're doing when we, when we look at these historical figures, we're we're looking at them through the lens of what God has done in their lives.
Speaker 3
In order that we Chu can follow in their foot so that we can follow faithfully.
Speaker 3
That we can take the Kingdom to uncharted territory.
Speaker 1
Right, that's right, being into the.
Speaker 3
Earth Christian absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 1
Jeff, thanks so much.
Speaker 1
It's great.
Speaker 1
Thank you all for coming along the Mortis Story podcast.
Speaker 1
Check this out.
Speaker 1
Share a link.
Speaker 1
This, particularly today when it comes out on Saint Patrick's Day might get people attention because theythey might not know what it is and I'd be curious why people wearing green, but we hope they get caught into this message.
Speaker 1
The big picture of what God is doing in the world and how he's inviting him into it.
Speaker 1
Just like that's what Saint Patrick did.
Speaker 1
I mean, this is an evangelist, so we're celebrating an evangelist today and God call and God.
Speaker 1
Work in his life.
Speaker 1
So thanks Jeff for coming along.
Speaker 3
Absolutely thank you for having me.
Speaker 1
God bless you all.