Andy Miller III
Cover Image for The Communicator's Calling with Dr. John Oswalt

The Communicator's Calling with Dr. John Oswalt

June 2, 2022


What a privilege it was to have Dr. John Oswalt on the podcast with me! We talked through his career as a preacher, scholar, leader, and teacher. He synthesizes these functions as a call to be a communicator. We also discuss his editorial work with the New Living Translation, his subtle critique of recent scholarship about the historical Adam, his decades-long study of Isaiah, and his thoughts about the future of the holiness tradition.

YouTube - https://youtu.be/7k3cPdy1dIc

Audio - https://andymilleriii.com/media/podcast

Apple - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-to-the-story-with-dr-andy-miller/id1569988895?uo=4

Dr. Oswalt’s Website: https://calledtobetransformed.net

Five Steps to Deeper Teaching and Preaching - I’m excited to share some news with you.  Recently, I updated that PDF document and added a 45-minute teaching video with slides, explaining this tool. It's like a mini-course. If you sign up for my list, I will send this free resource to you. Sign up here -www.AndyMillerIII.com or Five Steps to Deeper Teaching and Preaching.

Today’s episode is brought to you by two sponsors:

Bill Roberts is a financial advisor, who has been serving the retirement planning and investment needs of individuals, families, non-profits, and churches for 25 years. He is a Certified Financial Planner and accredited investment fiduciary. Bill specializes in working with Salvation Army employees and officers by helping them realize their financial goals.  You can find out more about Bill’s business at www.WilliamHRoberts.com


AND


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Transcript

Andy

Well, we have made it to this second year of the more to the story podcast and you just heard the music that came to us from Phil Legger who wrote that.

Andy

Piece, the intro and the outro.

Andy

For this podcast you can hear him singing more to his story there in several of you have got in touch with me who have who have enjoyed that music and some of you picked up that he's quoting in a him in there.

Andy

Maybe you can pick it out.

Andy

Let me know if.

Andy

You get if you find it.

Andy

It's a kind of a fun thing.

Andy

Also just so thankful.

Andy

For the opportunities we have to have folks.

Andy

Who have?

Andy

Written in kind of video testimonies where they've talked about what the podcast is meant to them, and they'll this past year and so I have a few more of those at the beginning of the podcast for next few weeks.

Andy

My friend Edward Williams, a former student here at Wesley Biblical Seminary, shares kind of some of his thoughts on on the podcast, and I'm so thankful to him and his witness and the way God using him.

Andy

Also coming out soon in July will be this course that I've developed, called contender.

Andy

It's a deep look at the little book of Jude, now just be on the lookout for this.

Andy

I'm really excited about this content and this, as Michael Green says, this burningly relevant book for our time.

Andy

So be on the lookout for this study coming.

Andy

On Jude, but now here my friend Edward.

Edward

Good evening, my name is Edward Williams and I am a proud graduate of the Wesley Biblical Seminary in Richland, Ms.

Edward

But I also happen to be a subscribed follower of Doctor Andy Miller. More to the story podcast. Now I wanted to hop on for just a few moments 'cause I've tried this video like 100 times, but I wanted to talk about one of my.

Edward

Favorite episodes that Doctor Miller posted for us.

Edward

I'm not pulling away from any of the videos that came before or after this one, but as a seminary student, this particular episode spoke volumes into my life.

Edward

It was called the scripture story with Doctor Joy more now as they come.

Edward

Now graduate student of Doctor Miller preaching class doctor more.

Edward

I'm able to meet her in Washington DC this past January with some of my WBS classmates and the same person that I saw on this podcast was the exact same person that we were able to meet in person.

Edward

What I loved about this.

Edward

About this episode.

Edward

As Doctor Miller asked doctor more questions about how she got into preaching some of her preaching methods, how how she developed as a preacher, and what I love that Doctor Moore did was she emphasized the Bible as one?

Edward

A biblical narrative and I love the way that she went into her personal bag and pulled out the movie Hunger Games.

Edward

Yes, Hunger Games and she made a cross reference between the capital in that movie with Daniel and the three Hebrew boys in the Old Testament of the Bible, and I loved that because she began to show how movies attract us.

Edward

About the language, how the imagery in a sense pulls out the beauty and science of preaching.

Edward

And as a student of preaching, what better method to learn than by looking at the things that we love to watch most?

Andy

Welcome to the more to the story podcast.

Andy

We have a great episode for you today with Doctor John Oswalt that just hold on.

Andy

We're going to get there in just a second. This podcast is brought to you by Wesley Biblical Seminary, dub.edu, where we are training trusted leaders for faithful.

Andy

Churches and trusted leaders means pastoral leaders, but also people who are actively involved in their churches by teaching Sunday school or just being strong leaders in their congregations.

Andy

And we think there's something important to say that we are training trusted leaders that churches who are on the receiving end of the seminary work can trust the people who are being sent.

Andy

From Wesley Biblical Seminary, as they are faithfully serving in their commune.

Andy

These also we have available a program coming this fall which I want people to know about. It's called the Wesley Institute where for nine months we walk through every book of the Bible so you can check that out at dub.edu.

Andy

Also, this podcast is brought to you by an anonymous donor and we are so glad today to be able to have.

Andy

On with the on with us Doctor John Oswalt.

Andy

Who is the.

Andy

Preacher, a scholar, an administrator, a well known person in the circles that my podcast serves, so Doctor Oswalt, we are so glad to have you with us.

Dr. Oswalt

Thank you glad to be with you.

Andy

So doctor, well what I wanted to do today is I wanted to walk through.

Andy

We often when people hear from you and I heard from you as a boy.

Andy

You weren't, you weren't even aware of it, but I remember you.

Andy

You preaching at a Salvation Army event and you're one of the very first people that I came in contact.

Andy

With who was a?

Andy

Scholar preacher.

Andy

Now a lot of times there's preachers and their scholars, but people don't blend those disciplines.

Andy

But it was such a blessing to me and you were friends with my grandfather and then it interacted with you through main in through your writing until just recently.

Andy

So it's really an honor to have you on the podcast today.

Dr. Oswalt

Well, it's an honor to.

Andy

Be with you so a lot of times what happens is we'll maybe look at one of the areas of your scholarly folk.

Andy

Yes, and that's that's a helpful thing, but I haven't heard too much where people just talk about your story, and this is the more to the story podcast, and I want to get a little bit more of that story, and then maybe we'll touch some of the scholarly and kind of like theological emphasis that you've had through the years.

Andy

But how did you feel led to become a scholar and a preacher?

Dr. Oswalt

Well, you don't have enough time.

Andy

Probably not, yeah.

Dr. Oswalt

I grew up in a farm in Ohio and my sister, who was ten years older than I, brought home with her, a preacher from Asbury College in those days.

Speaker 5

Hey guys.

Dr. Oswalt

And when I heard that guy preach, I thought to myself, boy, if I could preach like that.

Dr. Oswalt

I think.

Dr. Oswalt

I might like to be a preacher.

Dr. Oswalt

And so I preached our cows into the Kingdom pretty regularly as I took them back and forth to the field before and after milking.

Speaker 1

Ha ha ha ha.

Dr. Oswalt

That was OK when I was ten 11/12/13, but by the time I was 16 it.

Dr. Oswalt

Was not OK.

Dr. Oswalt

OK, I did not want to be a preacher and so I went to Taylor University, ostensibly to play football OK?

Andy

Uh, now what position did you play guard?

Dr. Oswalt

Did you?

Andy

Really OK watch out OK keep going.

Dr. Oswalt

Uh, and.

Dr. Oswalt

I went there only knowing what I would not be wow so I I enrolled in a.

Dr. Oswalt

Pre law course.

Dr. Oswalt

And one of my one of my ladies in the church where I grew up said to me once, Johnny.

Dr. Oswalt

I think you might make a good lawyer.

Dr. Oswalt

I I think I've been arguing about something, but.

Ha ha ha ha.

Dr. Oswalt

My I'm I met there really for the first time.

Dr. Oswalt

Sharp, gifted committed Christian kids.

Speaker 5

OK.

Dr. Oswalt

And they impressed me greatly because I'd gone to church all my life. I'd been in church. My parents were deeply committed Christians, and so I just wanted my way in God's way. That's all OK and.

Dr. Oswalt

I began to read the Scriptures seriously for the first time in my life.

Dr. Oswalt

Then in the summer of my freshman year, I went to a Bible conference in Michigan.

Dr. Oswalt

Where I was a dishwasher OK?

Dr. Oswalt

And met a young woman who was a waitress and have been meeting her ever since.

Speaker 5

Hey man hey man.

Dr. Oswalt

For 60 years.

Dr. Oswalt

Again, every week, a great evangelist, a great missionary speaker, music that impressed me that fall back at Taylor, a man named Dennis Kinlaw came to preach the fall.

Dr. Oswalt

Spiritual emphasis week.

Speaker 5

OK.

Dr. Oswalt

And I remember saying to a girl that I took to an evening meeting on a date.

Dr. Oswalt

Wow, when I hear that guy preach.

Dr. Oswalt

I'm not even sure I'm a Christian.

Dr. Oswalt

Thursday of that week.

Dr. Oswalt

I went to talk to him.

Dr. Oswalt

Well, he didn't take 10 minutes to determine whether I was a Christian or not.

Dr. Oswalt

He said, John, I know what your problem is and I said, oh.

Speaker 5

What's that?

Dr. Oswalt

He said he drew a little diagram.

Dr. Oswalt

I don't know whether he had gotten it from Campus Crusade or whether they got it from him.

Dr. Oswalt

A circle and in the center of the circle was a chair, and on the chair was a.

Dr. Oswalt

Big capital I.

Dr. Oswalt

And around the circle were little crosses.

Dr. Oswalt

He said, John, you're on the throne of.

Dr. Oswalt

Your life wow.

Dr. Oswalt

And you will never never be satisfied until Jesus is on the throne.

Dr. Oswalt

Wow, would you like that to happen?

Dr. Oswalt

And I said.

Dr. Oswalt

Yeah yeah.

Dr. Oswalt

Well, those who knew Doctor Ken law know that he had a habit when he was intense.

Dr. Oswalt

He got right up in your face.

Speaker 5

Right?

Dr. Oswalt

And we were sitting on 2 chairs facing each other.

Dr. Oswalt

He scooted out to the edge of his chair and he looked at me.

Dr. Oswalt

He said, John.

Dr. Oswalt

What is there you won't do?

Dr. Oswalt

I just blurted it out.

Dr. Oswalt

I won't be a preacher.

Andy

Ah, sure you knew it, yeah.

Dr. Oswalt

And he said, well, I guess that's the end of our conversation then isn't and I said well.

Dr. Oswalt

Oh I I want Jesus.

Andy

Let's talk through this.

Dr. Oswalt

I want Jesus he said how can he be on the throne of your life if there's something he wants you to do and you won't do it?

Dr. Oswalt

So I said OK.

Dr. Oswalt

OK.

Dr. Oswalt

And you know you you.

Dr. Oswalt

Hear people say it, but it's true.

Dr. Oswalt

That made all the difference, didn't it?

Dr. Oswalt

Yeah, there were no flashing lights.

Dr. Oswalt

There was no Thunder, there were no lightning.

Dr. Oswalt

Uh, but as I went out of that room, I said to myself, I don't feel any different.

Dr. Oswalt

But everything is going to be different.

Dr. Oswalt

And it was.

Speaker 5

Hey man.

Dr. Oswalt

And that really then made all the difference the brightest, sharpest kids were headed toward missionary service.

Dr. Oswalt

And I had bought the idea that if you're not called to stay home, you better plan to go.

Dr. Oswalt

OK, so I never felt a particular missionary call, but.

Dr. Oswalt

That's where I'm headed my senior year at Taylor.

Dr. Oswalt

I was in an English course.

Dr. Oswalt

I was a I was a minor in English literature and the professor.

Dr. Oswalt

Wonderful woman said to me, John.

Dr. Oswalt

I'd like to talk to you after class.

Dr. Oswalt

Sure, she said John.

Dr. Oswalt

Have you ever considered becoming a teacher?

Dr. Oswalt

You have a gift.

Dr. Oswalt

I said no.

Dr. Oswalt

I'm going to be.

Dr. Oswalt

Missionary, that's right.

Andy

Yeah, I worked this out with Doctor Kimmel, yeah?

Dr. Oswalt

About 30 years later, I was back at Taylor and met her and she looked at me and smiled and she said, do you remember a conversation we had?

Dr. Oswalt

Oh yes Oh yes.

Dr. Oswalt

So I went to Asbury Seminary.

Dr. Oswalt

And my second year at Asbury, I was taking Hebrew and loving it.

Dr. Oswalt

I had really started reading through the Old Testament slowly and back there at Taylor and it was just opening windows and doors.

Dr. Oswalt

I was saying OK, OK, I see what's going on here.

Dr. Oswalt

So the end of my second year in seminary.

Dr. Oswalt

First year we were married.

Dr. Oswalt

I felt a very clear call into teaching OK, and I thought well, what?

Dr. Oswalt

Do I teach?

Dr. Oswalt

Old Testament.

Dr. Oswalt

And that's been the story I we continued to pursue missionary service.

Dr. Oswalt

But at that point, the missions had no place for teachers.

Dr. Oswalt

It was you join us and we'll tell you what to do.

Andy

Right, it sounds like salvage Sherman.

Andy

So yeah, it's.

Dr. Oswalt

And I I'd my call into teaching was just so strong that I said no.

Dr. Oswalt

I I gotta do that better view that.

Dr. Oswalt

That's where.

Andy

It was all so so that was a sense of like not only just teaching, but in order to be a teacher.

Andy

You could have gone and been a a middle school teacher which would high vocation right?

Andy

But yeah, it still was a call to scholarship a skull to be to be a scholar world and that and then incorporated preaching at some point too.

Andy

So obviously working through.

Andy

Memory working then you when you went to Asbury Seminary or with Doctor Dennis Kinlaw there who had influenced you at Taylor and he to his Old Testament.

Andy

So you went on this trajectory towards Old Testament scholarship and that that took you to Brandeis?

Andy

Is that where you did your PhD?

Dr. Oswalt

Yes, yes.

Andy

So again then so this then starts to come into focus.

Andy

Now tell me a little bit along the way.

Andy

I'm sure you started preaching.

Andy

Still, what while teaching?

Dr. Oswalt

Yeah, I.

Dr. Oswalt

And I need to say.

Dr. Oswalt

There are scholars OK?

Dr. Oswalt

Scholars love to learn they they cannot get enough.

Dr. Oswalt

They can't go deep enough, cannot go broad enough.

Dr. Oswalt

And then there are teachers.

Andy

OK.

Dr. Oswalt

People who love to communicate what they've learned, OK?

Dr. Oswalt

I'm the latter.

This is how I thought.

Dr. Oswalt

I am not.

Dr. Oswalt

I am not a scholar in that full sense.

Dr. Oswalt

I hope I hope that indeed I study deeply.

Dr. Oswalt

I hope that I learn deeply, but that's not what drives me.

Dr. Oswalt

OK, what drives me is communicating.

Andy

I love this OK?

Dr. Oswalt

And that really that goes back.

Dr. Oswalt

Almost to my childhood.

Dr. Oswalt

Uh, I was in speech contest in high school was a finalist in a state speech contest in Ohio and and was a speech and drama major at Taylor I I was I was preaching while I was at Taylor and and so.

Speaker 5

OK.

Dr. Oswalt

So you you you can't stop me.

Dr. Oswalt

Yeah I look.

Andy

These are interesting distinctions.

Andy

I had another person who's who I I called and I said you've been an intellectual within this particular discipline for 50 years and I just love it and he he stopped me and he said, well, there's intellectuals and there are academics.

Andy

He says I don't like.

Andy

All of the all that comes along with the idea of being intellectual.

Andy

I've been in academic and I love this distinction.

Andy

You're saying between being a scholar and being a teacher and a communicator like that's been the primary motivation you want.

Andy

Do you have a truth that you want to convey?

Andy

So I loved.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah.

Andy

So even your scholarly work.

Andy

Are you thinking as you are deep in original manuscripts and or not?

Andy

Our manuscripts dealing with them.

Andy

How am I communicating this is that?

Andy

What's on your mind?

Dr. Oswalt

Yeah, and and how can I share this right isn't this exciting?

Dr. Oswalt

This ancient dead language.

Dr. Oswalt

So you know I I love to teach Hebrew.

Dr. Oswalt

Again, though, part of it simply for.

Dr. Oswalt

The people say to me, why do you teach and I say to watch the lights come on behind their eyes.

Speaker 5

Hey man hey man.

Andy

And you suppose that's why you preach?

Dr. Oswalt

To yes yes yes I mean.

Dr. Oswalt

I depend very heavily on audience feedback.

Dr. Oswalt

Umm, uh, now I'm I'm I'm not uncomfortable doing media stuff, but typically I'm really thinking as I look at that lens.

Dr. Oswalt

I'm thinking there's a person in there that I'm talking to.

Dr. Oswalt

And and.

Dr. Oswalt

So, so audience feedback means an awful lot to me am I?

Dr. Oswalt

Am I getting through to them?

Dr. Oswalt

Are they responding?

Dr. Oswalt

Are they saying yes?

Dr. Oswalt

Yeah, so that.

Dr. Oswalt

This is this is what drives me.

Andy

Yeah, it's when I went when I was coming to see me.

Andy

I left Asbury University and I was going to go to seminary.

Andy

The reason I went to Asbury theological seminaries, my wife had a year and a half left at Asbury University.

Andy

Why we stayed there but my grandfather was in some ways not happy with me because he wanted me to come to Wesley Biblical Seminary.

Andy

Why because?

Andy

Of you and and he thought I I try.

Speaker 1

Ha ha.

Andy

John owes Walt.

Andy

I love John Oswalt.

Andy

Just you.

Andy

Know you just.

Andy

Watch what you're learning, Andy and he kind of like and I had a great experience as very similar, so I don't discount that.

Andy

But when I got to Asbury Seminary, here's what I heard.

Andy

People you were still like, kind of talked about, kind of almost myths in the hall of your teaching.

Dr. Oswalt

Probably better.

Andy

And like there were people who said, and who had been with you, what made that time when you had finished at Asbury Summer, you had been there maybe five or six years before they said there we gave John Oswalt standing ovations after lectures.

Andy

Now is that true?

Andy

Once, once, OK, well they I heard.

Andy

Ovation so it did become a bit of.

Andy

A myth so, but you prepare for those lectures and what what?

Andy

Wait to see those lights come on.

Andy

I think that that's kind of the integrating idea behind your work in in your influence and its influence, not just, uh, holiness movement, but all whole groups of pastors through the years.

Andy

Now I want to get in a little bit.

Andy

You went to Brandeis and you came back and talked to Asbury Seminary and imagine in there your writing ministry started and one of the first ways of prime ways people might know you.

Andy

Pastors might know you through your work on Isaiah, so tell us about that.

Andy

Like what was that?

Andy

Some of your doctoral work and and you have one of the most established commentaries on that in the new international commentary Old Testament.

Andy

Then you've done other work on Isaiah, the new International Commentary series as well, so I'd love to hear a little bit about your Isaiah work.

Dr. Oswalt

I have never been able to put myself forward.

Dr. Oswalt

I I I, I know colleagues, students who are planning.

Dr. Oswalt

OK if I make this connection, I meet that this will happen and I've never been able to do that.

Dr. Oswalt

I don't see that.

Dr. Oswalt

As a particular grace, but it's just, it's just who I am.

Dr. Oswalt

I can't do it.

Dr. Oswalt

So these things have come to me.

Dr. Oswalt

By God's grace, OK, simply.

Speaker 5

Hey Amen.

Dr. Oswalt

In in.

Dr. Oswalt

The summer of 1972 I've been teaching just two years back at Asbury. I got an opportunity and I'm not.

Dr. Oswalt

I think it may have been through Doctor Kendall.

Dr. Oswalt

I don't know, but I got an opportunity to write a large article in the revised.

Dr. Oswalt

International Standard Bible encyclopedia. About 15,000 words and I I wrote it.

Dr. Oswalt

And got it in on time, which I know now from my editor experience is very unusual.

Speaker 1

Ha ha ha ha ha.

Dr. Oswalt

And I honestly think that may have been part of what happened, but I.

Dr. Oswalt

We were at supper.

Dr. Oswalt

In October of 1973, and the phone rang.

Dr. Oswalt

And it was RK Harrison, a professor at Toronto.

Dr. Oswalt

University of Toronto and he said, John, I need someone to write a two volume commentary on Isaiah.

Andy

Not a small task.

Dr. Oswalt

And he said I need it in five years and I said, I'm sorry I can't do that.

Andy

OK.

Dr. Oswalt

I I said I would have to have at least 10.

Dr. Oswalt

He said, well, let's compromise on 8.

Speaker 5

OK, wow eight years.

Dr. Oswalt

So there it.

Dr. Oswalt

Was just out of the blue out.

Dr. Oswalt

Of the blue so.

Dr. Oswalt

It took me.

Dr. Oswalt

Nine years to get him the first volume.

Dr. Oswalt

OK wow.

Dr. Oswalt

Again, he thought I was going to meet the schedule.

Dr. Oswalt

But he was.

Dr. Oswalt

Very, very kind about the first volume and he said, John, you take as long as you need for the second column, second volume.

Speaker 5

OK.

Dr. Oswalt

He died waiting for this Oh no.

Speaker 1

Second half.

Dr. Oswalt

It took me another well to write it.

Dr. Oswalt

It took me another 11 years and then the the publisher was fairly slow.

Dr. Oswalt

I think maybe they had maybe a number of volumes for the set came in at the same time, so it was from the.

Dr. Oswalt

Time I got the contract in 73 it was 25 years until the second volume appeared in 1998.

Dr. Oswalt

But there it was.

Dr. Oswalt

It was and and so.

Dr. Oswalt

It was a gift from God.

Dr. Oswalt

Wow, it was it was not anything that I.

Dr. Oswalt

Finagle for or designed for it was it was out of the blue, and so you know, I just.

Dr. Oswalt

To have spent much of my professional career studying that book.

Dr. Oswalt

Has been.

Dr. Oswalt

Just an unbelievable gift.

Dr. Oswalt

An unbelievable.

Andy

And a gift to the church too.

Andy

And to me personally.

Andy

Just last week I was asked to go to a weekend conference and present on the armor of God.

Andy

And so as I'm doing this, you know, realize very quickly that Paul is most likely quoting Isaiah 59, right? God puts on the helmet of salvation.

Dr. Oswalt

Yeah, yeah.

Andy

Righteousness well who would?

Andy

I go to, I mean two and then.

Andy

On top of.

Andy

That and let me just say the new International commentary series.

Andy

Those you can't always say like that one series is always the best, right?

Andy

There's depending on the author, nevertheless, that the expectation in that series to me when I read it, is that this is going to have a comprehensive look looking at all of this.

Andy

Sources, all of the arguments that when you look at one chapter in Isaiah, this is a definitive piece on that that chapter, its form, its structure, its pastoral implications. So that's why this is a 25 year process, isn't it?

Dr. Oswalt

Yeah, yeah.

Andy

Yeah, so anyways.

Andy

It's such a in in the new international version.

Andy

Commentary yes, this also has a little bit different shift.

Dr. Oswalt

Yes, yes it it is.

Dr. Oswalt

They told us when they gave us the assignment.

Dr. Oswalt

Each paragraph that you choose, you look at it three ways.

Dr. Oswalt

What does it mean?

Dr. Oswalt

What does it say?

Dr. Oswalt

Say it, I should back up and say what does it say that's just the grammar, that sort of thing.

Speaker 5

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Oswalt

What does it mean?

Dr. Oswalt

What's its theological teaching?

Dr. Oswalt

And then how does that apply right?

Dr. Oswalt

Right now I think that may date it because applications change overtime, but pastors?

Dr. Oswalt

Say to me that's the one I go to because it helps me to say OK, so yes, yeah, that's what it means.

Dr. Oswalt

Things I get.

Dr. Oswalt

I get very concerned about seminary students who in fact are not preachers.

Dr. Oswalt

They're Bible lecturers.

Dr. Oswalt

And and that's there isn't a watershed difference between those two if you simply tell your people that's what it says.

Dr. Oswalt

So what?

Dr. Oswalt

The question is what does?

Dr. Oswalt

That mean for your life, right, right?

Dr. Oswalt

A sermon has to address people.

Dr. Oswalt

It has to challenge people.

Dr. Oswalt

It has to move them a lecture.

Dr. Oswalt

You want to inform them you hope to inspire them.

Dr. Oswalt

But a sermon no.

Dr. Oswalt

No, you gotta move him.

Andy

I love that, and here's this is a little commercial time for me.

Speaker 1

Ha ha ha.

Andy

So if anybody is interested in what Doctor Oswalt saying, if you sign up for my email list, I will send you a five steps to deeper teaching and preaching. This is a little a document I've done with a 45 minute.

Andy

Teaching, but likely some of the imagine that you studied with Doctor Traina as well, and I take his method inductive Bible study method and I use that in a way that's wine to help people think while they're in the IBS.

Andy

Method how do they make a step toward proclamation and creatively thinking how I connect with the audience so you can get that at my website and there's a link probably in the show notes here.

Andy

Now I wanna.

Andy

Ask one more question about Isaiah, what is it when people think about that 25?

Andy

Year Labor of love that you did.

Andy

In that text, what is the kind of?

Andy

Big contribution that distinguishes your work in Isaiah.

Andy

Is I know there's probably every verse there's something like that and truly, but I mean what distinguishes what you've done.

Dr. Oswalt

One of the rewarding.

Dr. Oswalt

Features of my life has been for the past now.

Dr. Oswalt

Almost 40 years.

Dr. Oswalt

At one time it was probably one a month I was getting email email from a pastor saying I'm preaching through Isaiah and your book is the one that is helping me to understand what he means.

Andy

Wow wow yeah.

Dr. Oswalt

And I write back and say you're the guy.

Dr. Oswalt

I wrote it for.

Speaker 5

Amen, Amen.

Dr. Oswalt

To me.

Dr. Oswalt

To me, the Book of Isaiah is the most comprehensive statement of Old Testament theology. Excuse me of biblical theology in the Bible, I say to students if somebody comes to you and says, I'm going to take away 65 of your books and leave you one, keep Isaiah because.

Dr. Oswalt

There's more of the New Testament in Isaiah than any other Old Testament book, and Isaiah is the essential foundation for Christian truth.

Dr. Oswalt

And so it's that.

Dr. Oswalt

The the wonder of God's absolute transcendence. He's the holy one. You see him, you fall on your face saying it's over, I'm done and he's also the God who opens his arms to us and invites us in.

Speaker 5

Umm wow, I love that.

Dr. Oswalt

That completeness, which I had no idea of when I really started on this thing.

Dr. Oswalt

You know, I was.

Dr. Oswalt

I was as green as grass.

Dr. Oswalt

I was a child and but but just the deeper into it, the more.

Dr. Oswalt

Oh my, there's more about creation in Isaiah than there is in Genesis.

Speaker 5

Right?

Andy

Wow, interesting, now we have to look into that and also new creation.

Andy

For that matter too yeah yeah.

Dr. Oswalt

Exactly exactly, exactly, and and Isaiah's purpose there is to say the gods didn't.

Dr. Oswalt

Create the world.

Dr. Oswalt

So they can't deliver you from the world, but the creator, the one who stands outside of time and space he can reach in.

Dr. Oswalt

And touch you and lift you out of the tragedies in which you're facing and transform you.

Andy

Amen, oh, I love it now.

Andy

You also promote in that book the view of a single Isaiah authorship.

Andy

I do so.

Andy

Is that something you still hold to?

Andy

I do OK, you want to give us 30 seconds on that which deserves 3 hours.

Dr. Oswalt

Or 30 I guess sure.

Dr. Oswalt

The book claims to be written by Isaiah, exactly no other author is mentioned.

Dr. Oswalt

We also have no.

Dr. Oswalt

Extent, example of anything but the whole book as it stands.

Dr. Oswalt

So when people talk about second Isaiah or third Isaiah, they're talking about a scholarly hypothesis for which we have no objective evidence.

Dr. Oswalt

So I think the default position.

Dr. Oswalt

Is one guy wrote this?

Dr. Oswalt

But whatever you say there it is, I think, unquestionable.

Dr. Oswalt

That the Holy Spirit means us to read this thing together.

Dr. Oswalt

It's a unity.

Dr. Oswalt

It's a whole and to say, well, let's talk about the theology of First Isaiah and let's talk about the theology of third.

Dr. Oswalt

Isaiah no, let's talk about the theology of Isaiah.

Andy

Yes yes yes.

Dr. Oswalt

56 to 66 has to be read in the context of 1 to 6 and then.

Dr. Oswalt

That's even more than the technical issue of authorship.

Dr. Oswalt

The unity of the book is what I want to drive, and in my mind you cannot explain the unity without single authorship.

Andy

Awesome, that is so helpful.

Andy

And what is the text asking us to do?

Andy

I think that's like this is what in the same thing throughout the Pentateuch and we could go through like the text.

Dr. Oswalt

Exactly exactly.

Andy

The text is asking this of us.

Andy

Of course, we recognize that indepen.

Andy

It took Moses couldn't have written about his own death, right?

Andy

And like there's probably some editorial considerations to be given to Isaiah as well.

Dr. Oswalt

Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Andy

So OK, thank you for giving me 30 seconds on that when it deserves 30 hours, so I know that that that needs so much more time and that that represents again, you were within Isaiah for 25 years, producing that 1/2 volume.

Andy

Commentary so that that's unique.

Andy

OK, I want to get into another one, and I also want to hand some if we can get there on some of the other things you've done in your ministry.

Andy

But the Bible.

Andy

Among cements myths, 22,009 really important book that came out and what tell us a little bit about what led you to write that book and why it's so important.

Dr. Oswalt

Well, here comes Dennis Kinlaw again.

Andy

OK, I I had I sense a theme and that people who listen to this podcast are very used to hearing.

Speaker 5

Dennis Kim last name.

Dr. Oswalt

I'm very grateful that I felt the call into teaching and teaching Old Testament the year before Dennis Kinlaw came to Asbury Seminary to.

Dr. Oswalt

Teach OK, otherwise I might have thought.

Speaker 5

Hey OK.

Dr. Oswalt

Well I just got sucked into that, but no, it was there before, but I'm then very grateful.

Dr. Oswalt

That the next year.

Dr. Oswalt

He did come to teach one of the courses he taught was entitled Literature of the ancient Near East.

Dr. Oswalt

And in it.

Dr. Oswalt

He introduced us to a book called The Religion of Ancient Israel, which is a one volume condensation of A7 volume original written in Israeli.

Speaker 5

Oh wow.

Dr. Oswalt

A man named Ya Heskel Kaufman.

Dr. Oswalt

A Jewish man.

Dr. Oswalt

And he.

Dr. Oswalt

Called attention to two worldviews.

Dr. Oswalt

There is a worldview that says this world is all there is.

Dr. Oswalt

There is nothing outside of it in this cosmos and in this cosmos.

Dr. Oswalt

Everything in it is continuous with everything else.

Andy

OK.

Dr. Oswalt

So if I do something to this soil, I've done something to all soils.

Dr. Oswalt

It's what lies behind voodoo.

Andy

OK.

Dr. Oswalt

Make an image.

Dr. Oswalt

DeVos Walt, stick it with a pin and you've stucco swell with a pin because the image and Oswald are continuous.

Dr. Oswalt

That understanding that really there are only two worldviews.

Speaker 1

2 worldviews.

Dr. Oswalt

The biblical one and the other.

Dr. Oswalt

One OK.

Dr. Oswalt

Because the biblical one says no, God is not this world.

Dr. Oswalt

There is something outside of this cosmos.

Dr. Oswalt

Well, how many?

Dr. Oswalt

Religions believe that.

Dr. Oswalt

Christianity, Judaism, Islam and I don't have a Bible.

Dr. Oswalt

The wave, they all got it from one place, one single source in the history of human thought says.

Dr. Oswalt

There is something outside of this cosmos, right?

Dr. Oswalt

So that understanding there is transcendence, which is the biblical view and continuity, which is the Pagan view.

Dr. Oswalt

That shapes everything.

Dr. Oswalt

That shapes everything. This is again, as they said a moment ago. This is what shapes Isaiah's understanding of creation because there is a transcendent creator.

Dr. Oswalt

Yes, there is the possibility of salvation.

Dr. Oswalt

There is the possibility of deliverance if there is no transcendent creator.

Dr. Oswalt

Then baby you are what you are and you're never going to be different.

Dr. Oswalt

Wow salvation becomes self realization.

Dr. Oswalt

Yeah, so that that understanding of two worldviews really then has shaped my teaching and my thinking ever since that would have been in the fall of nine.

Dr. Oswalt

1864 so ever since then and and so that book really is a distillation of my thinking.

Dr. Oswalt

That what we've got in the Bible and and and the points that I make there is are there a lot of similarities between the Bible and Ancient near Eastern literature? Sure, yeah. God's very economical. Anything that he can use.

Speaker 1

Ha ha.

Dr. Oswalt

He will use yeah, sure.

Dr. Oswalt

But that's not what defines the Bible.

Dr. Oswalt

What defines the Bible is its differences from that point of view.

Dr. Oswalt

Did they offer sacrifices?

Dr. Oswalt

Yeah, did the Pagans offer sacrifices?

Dr. Oswalt

Yeah, so they're doing the same thing.

Dr. Oswalt

No, they're not.

Andy

Do they have creation stories?

Andy

Yes, but what what?

Dr. Oswalt

They're not the same.

Andy

Them yeah.

Dr. Oswalt

The creation stories.

Dr. Oswalt

In the beginning was chaotic matter, which has always existed and will always exist.

Dr. Oswalt

Well, look at the world, yeah.

Dr. Oswalt

That stuff that's permanent?

Dr. Oswalt

Yeah, this stuff.

Dr. Oswalt

This rots away and disappears but that stuff.

Dr. Oswalt

Ah, so yeah.

Dr. Oswalt

And we know from experience that matter hates being organized.

Speaker 1

Right?

Dr. Oswalt

Chaotic matter is the basis of everything.

Dr. Oswalt

And here's the Bible that says in the beginning God wow.

Dr. Oswalt

With sacrifices.

Dr. Oswalt

OK, the gods are mad at me, so let's do a ritual and I will become this sheep and we'll kill the sheep and the gods will say, oh, Oswald is dead.

Dr. Oswalt

It's OK.

Dr. Oswalt

And the prophets say, don't you, dare you sacrifice that way?

Dr. Oswalt

Don't you dare think that you can manipulate God by giving me a sheep.

Dr. Oswalt

Wow, well, what are we doing then?

Dr. Oswalt

You are representing the character of your heart.

Dr. Oswalt

How much do I love God?

Dr. Oswalt

Here's my very best lamb.

Dr. Oswalt

How much do I hate sin?

Dr. Oswalt

At the cost of life itself.

Dr. Oswalt

So they're doing the same thing, but they're not doing the same thing.

Dr. Oswalt

Same thing with the temple.

Dr. Oswalt

Canaanite temples 3 parts.

Dr. Oswalt

A front porch, a holy room and an inner cell.

Dr. Oswalt

Temple front porch holy Place, Holy of holies.

Dr. Oswalt

Ah, but in that inner cell is an idol.

Dr. Oswalt

Is a God that you can manipulate by giving him sacrifices by putting nice clothes on him.

Dr. Oswalt

In the temple.

Dr. Oswalt

Is a pretty gold box.

Dr. Oswalt

Wow, how do you worship a box you don't?

Speaker 5

Right?

Dr. Oswalt

You worship the one who is above that box and whose character is represented by what's in the box.

Dr. Oswalt

Yes, wow.

Dr. Oswalt

Thing no, no.

Dr. Oswalt

I like to say there are a lot of similarities between me and my dog.

Dr. Oswalt

We have two nostrils.

Dr. Oswalt

We have two eyes.

Dr. Oswalt

We have two ears.

Speaker 1

Right?

Dr. Oswalt

We have the same circulatory system.

Speaker 5

Right?

Dr. Oswalt

We have the same respiratory system.

Dr. Oswalt

We have the same gastrointestinal system, so the dog and I are the same thing.

Dr. Oswalt

No, right, it's not the similarities that define us, it's the differences.

Speaker 5

Yes, oh I love.

Andy

That thank you for distilling that down.

Andy

Just in a couple of minutes for us, I want to bring up one thing connected to this and this is at the request of our my President, doctor Madares, but also my interest to in the last year.

Andy

William Lane.

Andy

Craig Dr.

Andy

William Lane Craig has come out with his book on the historical Adam and he draws upon the work of, you know, one of your students and my one of my professors.

Andy

So I guess I'm like your grandson student.

Andy

That Bill Arnold in in his commentary.

Andy

His Cambridge commentary on Genesis talking about Mytho history.

Andy

So how does that interact with?

Andy

That with your concepts that you're talking about, even here with and and in the Bible and the myths.

Andy

I know this deserves again 30 hours.

Dr. Oswalt

Yeah, yeah.

Andy

I just acknowledge that.

Dr. Oswalt

And I hesitate to criticize a friend and former student.

Sure, sure.

Dr. Oswalt

It's wrong.

Dr. Oswalt

Genesis is not Mytho history.

Dr. Oswalt

OK it is not mythicized history which is really where Craig is taking it that well.

Dr. Oswalt

Goodness gracious, look at the difference between one to Genesis 1 to 11 and Genesis 12.

Dr. Oswalt

And following you've got all this fantastic stuff in Genesis 1 to 11.

Dr. Oswalt

Clearly that's not historical.

Dr. Oswalt

You don't have any fantastic stuff in Genesis 12 following.

Dr. Oswalt

About God showing up and having supper with Abraham.

Dr. Oswalt

Right right?

Dr. Oswalt

No, the different Genesis 1 to 11 is the broad long distance a telephoto lens of 10s of thousands of years.

Dr. Oswalt

But it's not fundamentally different from what follows in Genesis 1 to 12.

Dr. Oswalt

Does it?

Dr. Oswalt

Does it describe history using poetic language?

Dr. Oswalt

Does it describe history using grand images?

Dr. Oswalt

Does it condense long sweeps of history into a single episode?

Dr. Oswalt

Yes, but that doesn't mean it's not historical.

Andy

OK, interesting, so like just the fact that it's supernatural kind of moves it beyond the idea of seeing like it could.

Andy

Anything could be historical 'cause there's supernatural claims.

Andy

Genesis 12 and following Abraham School for that matter so, but I I mean, I've I've found myself kind of wondering about William Lane Craig analysis and and in some ways appreciating the fact that he wants to at least have a connection to a singular Adam and Eve.

Dr. Oswalt

Yes, I'm yes.

Andy

Like that's something that's that's helpful to me.

Andy

But he puts it in the idea of this idea of there being a certain form of literature, and that that the first you know primeval history is as that literature.

Dr. Oswalt

Yeah, yeah.

Andy

So you're saying that that challenge moves beyond, maybe in the supernatural claims and OK.

Dr. Oswalt

Absolutely, absolutely and.

Dr. Oswalt

Throughout the Bible.

Dr. Oswalt

Theology is rooted in real human historical experience in real time and space.

Dr. Oswalt

To say that that only starts at Genesis 12 and that Genesis 1 to 11 is not rooted in real events in time and space.

Dr. Oswalt

Is to miss.

Andy

It gotcha, thank you for I know that that deserves more time, so anybody who's listening to this and is feeling like Oh well, just no.

Dr. Oswalt

Miss it bad.

Andy

I'm just trying to get a little taste of some of the things that doctor old salty and honestly, is my curiosity too.

Andy

I wanted to hear just a brief and maybe we'll talk more about it.

Andy

Later too OK, so one other great things that happen in your career as a communicator was that you were a part of the translating committee, not just doing one book, but you were the editor for the minor prophets for the new living translation.

Dr. Oswalt

All the profits.

Andy

All the prophets excuse me.

Andy

So for the new living translation.

Andy

So tell me about that.

Andy

And what was that process like?

Dr. Oswalt

I think well.

Dr. Oswalt

There was a committee of 12 persons.

Dr. Oswalt

Six of us who were biblical scholars, Daniel Block, was in charge of Pentateuch.

Dr. Oswalt

Barry Beitzel was in charge of historical books Tremper Longman in charge of poetry.

Dr. Oswalt

I was in charge of profits.

Dr. Oswalt

Grant Osborne was in charge of the.

Speaker 5

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Oswalt

Epistles and acts, and I'm not going to remember the name of the sixth one who is in charge of epistles and revelation.

Dr. Oswalt

So there were six of us.

Dr. Oswalt

Yeah, then there was an English stylist.

Andy

OK.

Dr. Oswalt

Dan Taylor, who taught for many years at Bethel and then there were four representatives from Tynedale, the publisher, a New Testament coordinator and Old Testament coordinator.

Dr. Oswalt

Doctor Ken Taylor, who did the living Bible and his son Mark Taylor, who was president of Tyndale House at that point.

Dr. Oswalt

So there were twelve of us on this committee, and we spent six years Wow and all of us.

Dr. Oswalt

Particularly, all of us biblical scholars or teachers or whatever.

Dr. Oswalt

Will tell you.

Dr. Oswalt

That was the high point of our professional lives.

Dr. Oswalt

To sit around the table for 8 hours discussing what does the Bible say?

Dr. Oswalt

What does it mean?

Dr. Oswalt

And we all we all laugh at some of the things that we got to know each other very very well.

Dr. Oswalt

Yeah, we.

Dr. Oswalt

In the idea in the beginning was the living Bible.

Dr. Oswalt

Has sold 40 million copies.

Dr. Oswalt

It has been used by God in tremendous ways, but it always gets dismissed as a paraphrase.

Speaker 5

Right, right, right.

Dr. Oswalt

Is it possible to keep the same energy, the same readability and make it a translation?

Dr. Oswalt

So that's where we started.

Dr. Oswalt

The language was if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Dr. Oswalt

If the living Bible captures what the Greek or the Hebrew says, keep.

Dr. Oswalt

It if it doesn't, hey change it.

Dr. Oswalt

So that was the whole.

Dr. Oswalt

Idea and so we would we would.

Dr. Oswalt

Sit around that table and oftentimes.

Dr. Oswalt

It would end up an 11 to one vote.

Dr. Oswalt

And the one vote would be Kenneth Taylor.

Andy

OK, Kenna Taylor to original newly OK.

Dr. Oswalt

Here we are tearing limbs and arms off his baby yes, and and he would argue he'd argue strongly for his position.

Andy

Bless his heart.

Dr. Oswalt

But once the vote was taken it was over Wow and all of us have test kits.

Speaker 5

Even his son would go get OK.

Dr. Oswalt

All of us have testified again and again to the example of grace.

Dr. Oswalt

He never, once it was over, it was over.

Dr. Oswalt

He never pouted, he never sulked, it was always.

Dr. Oswalt

Well, if that's what you think, and so that's one of the things that impressed all of us.

Dr. Oswalt

Again, I say we got to know each other very, very well and sometimes we would say, well, that's the word of God by a six to five vote.

Andy

Haha sounds like Supreme Court or something.

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting.

Dr. Oswalt

And one one time we'd had a long, long discussion and finally had taken the vote, and it was over.

Dr. Oswalt

And I was sitting next to Mark Taylor, who was who functioned as the chairman.

Dr. Oswalt

His Ken Taylor son, because he was president of the.

Speaker 5

OK.

Dr. Oswalt

Company he looked at me and said, John, what's the matter?

Dr. Oswalt

I said I didn't say anything.

Dr. Oswalt

He said no, but you sighed.

Oh, I see.

Andy

I've heard that sign before.

Dr. Oswalt

So it was.

Dr. Oswalt

It was simply.

Dr. Oswalt

It was simply a glorious experience, the process.

Dr. Oswalt

Was interestingly, each of the sections divides into fives.

Dr. Oswalt

The Pentateuch, of course five books, yeah, but the historical books can be divided into 5.

Dr. Oswalt

The poetry if you take Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel.

Dr. Oswalt

Excuse me, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, Daniel, and the.

Speaker 5

OK.

Dr. Oswalt

12 OK God, there's five.

Andy

Oh gotcha sure, interesting.

Dr. Oswalt

So in each case.

Dr. Oswalt

We then invited three persons to go through each one of those units.

Dr. Oswalt

And offered their suggestions as to OK.

Dr. Oswalt

How can we correct the living Bible?

Andy

Here OK.

Dr. Oswalt

Those would then for instance with Jeremiah and Lamentations.

Dr. Oswalt

Those suggestions?

Dr. Oswalt

Came to me.

Dr. Oswalt

I then collated them, put them together and prepared a.

Dr. Oswalt

This is what it is.

Dr. Oswalt

That was then sent to all the members of the committee.

Dr. Oswalt

And we would then meet gotcha originally.

Dr. Oswalt

Tyndale House naively thought we could do this in a few long weekends, but after the first two weekends it was obvious that's not going.

Speaker 5

Oh wow.

Dr. Oswalt

To work, let's get.

Andy

In five more years.

Dr. Oswalt

So they said.

Dr. Oswalt

To us well, suppose we take you someplace for three weeks each summer.

Dr. Oswalt

Well, we all had young children at that point and we said, Umm, that won't work.

Dr. Oswalt

They said suppose we take you to someplace nice and bring your family with you.

Andy

Well, there you go.

Dr. Oswalt

And we'll start work at 6:30 in the morning and finish at 3:30, and you'll have the rest of the afternoon and evening with you, we said Yep.

Andy

Deal so.

Dr. Oswalt

We would meet typically the first three weeks in June, and for most resorts that's downtime.

Dr. Oswalt

So we went to Aspen.

Dr. Oswalt

We went to Beaver Creek.

Dr. Oswalt

We went to Charleston.

Dr. Oswalt

And I I was looking at in one case at the thing on the back of the door of my room and it said.

Dr. Oswalt

The normal price.

Dr. Oswalt

For this room was, I think, $485.

Dr. Oswalt

I think they Tindale probably got it for under 100.

Speaker 5

That's great.

Dr. Oswalt

So it was it was.

Dr. Oswalt

We our kids grew up together and it was simply.

Dr. Oswalt

It was simply a marvelous.

Andy

Experience so I love.

Andy

I've never heard that story or anything, but I've just been one who's benefited from the NLT.

Andy

And I use it often in my kind of daily morning.

Andy

Read through the Bible, OK?

Dr. Oswalt

Oh, I do I do.

Dr. Oswalt

All the time.

Andy

Well, it's nice to know I'm in good company.

Dr. Oswalt

Yes you are.

Andy

So did you do the work?

Andy

Isaiah yourself for that one OK?

Andy

And because then you assign the other ones out.

Dr. Oswalt

No, no there were.

Dr. Oswalt

There were.

Dr. Oswalt

I was.

Dr. Oswalt

One of the three.

Andy

OK, gotcha.

Dr. Oswalt

For Isaiah and then that was a little bit warped, because then I got.

Dr. Oswalt

To make finals just what it?

Andy

Would be overruled.

Andy

Overruled the editor has spoke.

Andy

Yeah, that's great.

Andy

OK, now I want to transition one other question and some people will know that you served as the interim President here at Wesley Biblical Seminary for three or four years as the President.

Dr. Oswalt

No, no no no, only a year.

Andy

Only year, although here I mean then.

Andy

Also as President of Asbury University for was it 3 three and a half years there.

Dr. Oswalt

And a half years.

Andy

And then you know you've served in leadership roles within the Wesleyan Holiness movement as a whole.

Andy

And Asbury University and Seminary Wesley.

Andy

Biblical seminary denominations like your denomination and free Methodist Church, the Salvation Army, etc.

Andy

Are part of this broader movement and I'd love to just get your thoughts on where that movement is as a whole, and what you see kind of happening in that world.

Andy

I I I can, I think I can speak authoritatively.

Andy

On this is that we see you as one of the key communicators and.

Andy

Leaders in that movement, and we're so thankful for your homiletical direction writing direction.

Andy

But you know you have a vantage point that's unique 'cause you're connected to people like Doctor Dennis Kinlaw scholars from other generations interact in the evangelical community as a whole.

Andy

So there I'm buttering you up a little bit I.

Dr. Oswalt

Yeah, yeah, pretty thick.

Andy

Don't mean but it.

Andy

Really is it's true.

Andy

And that's why I'm so honored to have you on.

Andy

But tell us a little bit about your thoughts about where the Wesleyan Holiness movement is and where it should be going.

Dr. Oswalt

Well, it is in deep trouble.

Dr. Oswalt

OK it is in deep trouble.

Dr. Oswalt

The second law of thermodynamics says that things tend toward inertia.

Dr. Oswalt

And and that's what has been happening in the Holiness movement, really.

Dr. Oswalt

For the past 50 or 60 years.

Dr. Oswalt

One famous writer, very public announced the Holiness movement is dead, right?

Speaker 5

Yeah, Yep, jewelry.

Dr. Oswalt

And and he said, and I think correctly, a movement is something that has an inner cohesiveness that drives it forward, and to which people can.

Dr. Oswalt

Uh, uh.

Dr. Oswalt

They can join it without ever actually signing things.

Dr. Oswalt

That's no longer the case.

Dr. Oswalt

There's no longer a cohesiveness about this quote movement, and there's no longer a sense of forward movement and, and that's sad.

Dr. Oswalt

We see and and I'll.

Dr. Oswalt

I'll simply say it.

Dr. Oswalt

We see a denomination like the Nazarene church which was built on the doctrine of Second blessing holiness, now large.

Dr. Oswalt

Really, largely discarding it.

Dr. Oswalt

I talked to Nazarene pastors who are grieved over what is happening on the higher levels in terms of simply abandoning the idea.

Dr. Oswalt

That's tragic because.

Dr. Oswalt

Holiness is what the Bible is about.

Speaker 5

Amen, yeah.

Dr. Oswalt

And it is not tragically.

Dr. Oswalt

It has been presented too often by those of us who would espouse it as demand.

Dr. Oswalt

You know, we love Hebrews without holiness.

Dr. Oswalt

No one will see God, so you better get with.

Dr. Oswalt

It well, it's tragic.

Dr. Oswalt

Holiness is not a demand, it's an offer.

Dr. Oswalt

You and I can share the character of God.

Dr. Oswalt

May you and I can walk with him in untroubled fellowship.

Dr. Oswalt

Yeah, uh, that's not a demand, that's an offer, and it's a wonderful offer.

Speaker 5

Hey man.

Dr. Oswalt

And that's why.

Dr. Oswalt

I I say it to you rather bluntly.

Dr. Oswalt

I don't care what happens to the movement.

Dr. Oswalt

I care about communicating this truth and and and getting others to join, right?

Speaker 5

Right, right, right.

Dr. Oswalt

This crusade, uh, that's a that's a bad word these days, but.

Speaker 5

Right, I love it this.

Andy

Is not the instant.

Andy

It's not the institutional forms that are are.

Andy

What's the the substance of?

Andy

Instead, it's the experience.

Andy

It's the doctrine.

Andy

It's the reality.

Andy

Yes, yes.

Dr. Oswalt

Years ago there used to be the Christian Holiness Association right, which started out as the National Holiness Campmeeting Association.

Dr. Oswalt

Right coming out of the great camp meetings of the late 1900s, late 1800s.

Dr. Oswalt

I was at the last.

Dr. Oswalt

Commission meeting

Dr. Oswalt

And the question was asked to these. There were probably 35 of us in the room, mostly denominational leaders. The question was asked what can the Christian Holiness Association do for you?

Dr. Oswalt

One after another they said, well, really nothing.

Dr. Oswalt

And I have thought ever since, that was absolutely the wrong question.

Dr. Oswalt

The question is, what can we as a united Group do to spread the good news?

Dr. Oswalt

Of Holiness, right, sure.

Dr. Oswalt

So that it was all.

Dr. Oswalt

Framed in terms of institutional advancement and that's.

Andy

Yes yes yes yes.

Andy

He's like what does this mean for the world?

Dr. Oswalt

That's wrong.

Dr. Oswalt

Exactly, and what can we working together do that we can't do individually?

Dr. Oswalt

Wow, so but there is.

Speaker 5

Right, right?

Dr. Oswalt

An international

Dr. Oswalt

Holiness convention.

Dr. Oswalt

Comprised largely of.

Dr. Oswalt

If I may say it.

Dr. Oswalt

Splinter Methodist denominations.

Dr. Oswalt

Which met recently and had 5000 people in attendance.

Dr. Oswalt

The interest in holiness is not dead.

Dr. Oswalt

But what was for so long described as the holiness movement?

Dr. Oswalt

I don't think exists.

Andy

That's helpful, that's a helpful distinction to make, and where else do you see some signs of hope in this?

Dr. Oswalt

Well, I think frankly.

Dr. Oswalt

The collapse of Western Civilization is an opportunity.

Speaker 5

OK.

Dr. Oswalt

For us with with people whose lives are just in absolute chaos and disaster, we.

Dr. Oswalt

Have a word.

Dr. Oswalt

We have a.

Speaker 5

Word of hope namang

Dr. Oswalt

We had a of a word of possibility and and I think that's our opportunity.

Speaker 5

Right?

Dr. Oswalt

Absolutely it is in a in a society where everything is going very, very nicely.

Dr. Oswalt

And everybody is comfortably getting fatter and richer.

Dr. Oswalt

It's hard to.

Dr. Oswalt

Here, So what about holding this?

Dr. Oswalt

Who cares about that?

Dr. Oswalt

But in a society where people are broken or they're in pieces?

Dr. Oswalt

The Holiness message is for us.

Andy

Hey man hey man and I'm thankful you know that you've still and you're still investing time.

Andy

The reason you're here today is 'cause you're here for a board meeting at Wesley Biblical Seminary and like that's where we aren't.

Speaker 5

Thank you.

Andy

Directly connected to any of the institutions of the holiness movement in the sense that we're not.

Andy

We're not dependent upon, you know, we have relationships with various denominations, but we're in non denominational school, hopeful, hoping to speak into this world.

Andy

And what's so interesting to me is that we have students who come to us not.

Andy

From any of the Holiness or Methodist circles that we've been a part of, but they come.

Andy

And what is it that they get inspired by the.

Dr. Oswalt

Message exactly exactly.

Andy

And so I'm I'm I'm I look at even the the prominence in in Asbury Seminary.

Andy

But but West Bengal said we've set topled in size and.

Andy

For years like this is a sign that something in this world that's falling apart where truth doesn't absolute where people are longing for this.

Andy

Maybe they're finding some of that.

Dr. Oswalt

Here my first message when I became interim President here at the seminary was why should Wesley Biblical Seminary exist?

Dr. Oswalt

OK, and my answer.

Dr. Oswalt

Is because there are very, very few other seminaries that are committed to two things.

Dr. Oswalt

The inerrancy of scripture, yeah.

Dr. Oswalt

And the glory of holiness.

Dr. Oswalt

Those two foundations, our hope is in the word, right, right?

Dr. Oswalt

If we lose the word, we might as well go home.

Dr. Oswalt

We might as well go find some drugs and burn our heads out, and because there's nothing if there's no word, there's nothing.

Dr. Oswalt

And what does the word tell us?

Dr. Oswalt

The word says you can share the character.

Speaker 5

Of God Amen, Amen.

Andy

OK we'll we'll finish her one last question.

Andy

It's a easy one.

Andy

I think the title of my podcast is more to the story.

Andy

Is there more to the story than typically hold of jonos?

Andy

While there's something you'd like to do, like scuba dive or found?

Dr. Oswalt

I'm a model railroader really yes in my basement is a pretty good sized model railroad layout.

Andy

OK, how long have you been doing that?

Dr. Oswalt

60 years.

Andy

Wow, so when you finish up like translating that passage in Isaiah and work in the NLT, you.

Andy

Go down and work on your railroad.

Yep, OK fun.

Andy

So do do you like to actually ride on trains?

Andy

Too, is that OK?

Dr. Oswalt

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah, I'm a I'm a trained nut.

Andy

OK, I love it well thanks.

Andy

So much for joining me on today's podcast.

Andy

It's been such a blessing to be able to spend some time with you.

Dr. Oswalt

Happy to.

Andy

Do it and thanks everybody for coming along.

Andy

If you wouldn't mind sharing a link to this liking this letting people know.

Andy

I'm sure that you've heard some of you have heard Doctor Oswalt before and you didn't know some of these things about some of his scholarship and the work that God called him to do so in if you.

Andy

If you don't mind share a link to this, this would be.

Andy

A great blessing, it helps this word get.

Andy

Out more and check out at my my website, Andy Miller third Andy Miller IE com to get that resource five steps to deeper teaching and preaching.

Andy

God bless you.

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