The Just War Tradition with Eric Patterson

In his recently released book, A Basic Guide to the Just War Tradition, Eric Patterson surveys Christian thinking on an array of topics related to security and peace from a just war perspective. This conversation was both enlightening and relevant.

Youtube - https://youtu.be/3T_UnWt2F6U

Audio - https://andymilleriii.com/media/podcast

Apple -  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-to-the-story-with-dr-andy-miller/id1569988895?uo=4

Here is a link to Eric’s book: https://bakeracademic.com/p/A-Basic-Guide-to-the-Just-War-Tradition-Eric-Patterson/516466

If you are interested in learning more about my two video-accompanied courses,

Contender: Going Deeper in the Book of Jude and

Heaven and Other Destinations: A Biblical Journey Beyond this World , visit courses.andymilleriii.com

And don’t forget about my book that came out last summer, Contender, which is available on Amazon!

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Today’s episode is brought to you by these two sponsors:

Keith Waters and his team at WPO Development do an amazing job helping non-profits and churches through mission planning studies, strategic plans, feasibility studies, and capital campaigns. We are honored to have Keith and WPO on the More to the Story team. You can find out more about them at www.wpodevelopment.com or touch base directly with Keith at Keith.Waters@wpodevelopment.com.

AND

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Thanks too to Phil Laeger for my podcast music. You can find out about Phil's music at https://www.laeger.net

Transcript:

Welcome to the more, to the story. Podcast. I'm so glad that you have come along and I'm excited to share this episode with you. I think you're gonna find it really helpful to think about the just war tradition. And I have the book right here. Oh, sorry all my tabs are in there for those you watch on Youtube, a basic guide to just war tradition, foundations and practices published by Baker Press. And I'll introduce my guests in just a second. But first, st

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Andy Miller III: you need to know this Podcast comes to you from Wesley Biblical Seminary, where we are developing trusted leaders for faithful churches. And you're probably listening to this sometime in the summer of 2024, just in time to sign up for classes coming in the fall. We are an exciting moment in our history, as we've added just in the last year, more than 300 global Methodist church pastors who are now participating in our programs.

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Andy Miller III: That brings our kind of our current student body up to about 500 students. And what's wild about that is, in our 50 year history. We have about 600 alumni. So we almost have as many current students right now as we have alumni. So it's this great moment that we have at Wbs to be able to shape leaders in the church, particularly those who are we. We come from an evangelical Wesleyan perspective that values the inerrancy of Scripture and the reality and

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Andy Miller III: of the holy life. So we'd love for you to check us out at Wbs. Edu also, my friend, Bill Roberts is a financial planner. He helps me pay for some of the things that make this podcast possible. Like all the technical things that go in the background. I'm so thankful for him, and he has a great ministry and helping people plan for the financial futures. You can find out more about him at William H. roberts.com, or you can look in my show notes.

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Andy Miller III: classes. I have 2 courses there, one on heaven and another one on the book of Jude. These are kind of like small group resources that you can use video based curriculum that you can find in my website at Andy Miller, the 3rd com.

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Andy Miller III: All right. I am so glad to welcome to Podcast. Eric Patterson, who is the CEO of victims of the victims of Communism, Memorial Foundation. He is also the scholar at large at Regent University, Eric welcome to Podcast.

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Eric Patterson: Andy. It's great to be with you. Thanks for having me today.

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Andy Miller III: Well, I'm it's so glad to have you on in in this book that you've written is wonderfully helpful. I think, as people are trying to figure out like kind of a basic foundations for the just. For tradition. This book by bake for press is one that I highly recommend. People check out, and we got connected because of my friend Mark Tully, who leads Institute for Religion and Democracy, and I figured it took me a little bit to put the pieces together. But be through Mark in a program we did.

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Andy Miller III: There at the Ird I met your wife, Jennifer a few years ago who works at the Reform Theological Seminary's campus there. So I'm I'm thankful for all these connections we have. I'm glad that we finally get to meet.

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Eric Patterson: Likewise. Yeah. And those are great friends. I mean, I'm so proud of the work that the instrument, religion and democracy does the work of Mark Tuli, who's been so faithful over the years, and so smart and strategic, and con the Church to faithful witness.

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Eric Patterson: And of course, Mark Levicki at Iods Journal, Providence, a journal of Christianity, American foreign policy. I'd highly recommend to your readers, you know. There's just not another place to go for consistent thinking

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Eric Patterson: from a Christian perspective, a Christian just war, Christian realist perspective. That's that's theologically orthodox. I'm born and national security policy. And it's a free website, a free blog, a free set of articles, and of course, thanks for the shout out to my just beautiful, and also brilliant wife Jennifer Patterson and the Institute for Theology, public life at the DC. Campus or form Theological Seminary. I've tremendous respect for what

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Eric Patterson: she and Scott read in the faculty are doing there to bring a holistic Biblical orthodox teaching for seminarians, but a but also looking for wider impact on the ethical issues of our day.

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Andy Miller III: Hmm, that. Yeah, I'm so thankful for that ministry they have there, and that Rts has done that. And I appreciate to you highlighting the orthodox strategic way that Mark has brought, and mark both marks Mark Leveki and Mark Tuli, this Christian realistic realism perspective to kind of

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Andy Miller III: when I was serving a pastor for 15 years. I came out through seminary in a period where, particularly in the Wesleyan tradition, they were looking for voices who could speak into contemporary life, and for whatever reason, my seminary education, which wasn't at Wbs, emphasize the voices like

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Andy Miller III: Stanley Hower was, and Will Willemann, and certainly not a just war perspective. Now, there were a couple of folks that like it, particularly a professor, a couple of professor there who really helped me find that foundation. But as I was in

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Andy Miller III: find the foundation just war. It was. It was Mark, the 2 marks that really helped me get some footy and kind of even almost learn about this tradition. And I'm hopeful that people listening this podcast will look to your book and those resources as a place to go. Is that something that you've heard on a regular basis, that you know people when they're trying to find something, they end up moving towards these Anabas and Anabapt

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Andy Miller III: specific perspectives.

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Eric Patterson: Yeah. So you know, there's just a lot of misinformation that happens at particularly. I hate to say it in seminaries and divinity schools. That is a very simplistic, and actually, it's a progressive theology. It's not a classic Christian theology. That kind of turns

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Eric Patterson: turn the other cheek into a a maxim that Christian should be walked over, that they shouldn't defend their neighbor. And that's really what I mean. I don't mean that we shouldn't. I I'm not talking about a muscular, you always have to stand up for yourself. I mean

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Eric Patterson: that that you have a role to play, and where God has put you to be thinking about protection and defense of your neighbors, and that there are some Christians we're actually called to that professionally. They have a vocation of public service, as a magistrate, as a judge, as a policeman, as a soldier, as a public official, as a prisoner, prime minister, just like in the Old Testament, God called some of these people, and in the New Testament we see we're told not just to support them and pray for them.

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Eric Patterson: But, Paul, if you look at the back end of his letters. He he gives greetings to Zenas, the lawyer. He gives greetings to the members of Caesar's household. In other words, people doing public administration.

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Eric Patterson: Jesus says that the person has the most faith he meets is a Roman centurion, so.

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Andy Miller III: Character.

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Eric Patterson: The the we've gotten off track theologically, with some really simplistic, thin, and not biblically based views on these matters. But there's this, there's a tradition that goes right back to the Bible, and it comes through people like Augustin and then through Aquinas, and perhaps the best thing to call it would be just war statecraft or just statecraft.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, it's interesting.

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Eric Patterson: 1 1 term that is, in an all embracing term that we've been using for the since the 19 thirties is Christian realism so authentically orthodox Christian in the Augustinian and Protestant reformer tradition, and at the same time

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Eric Patterson: realistic and but realistic. What we mean is theologically informed. Realism.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure.

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Eric Patterson: Are fallen, and they have opportunities to do good. Live in a fallen world. There's sin, there's anger, there's hatred, but at the same time. So we have to be realistic about those things. But we should also be realistic that we're creative and we're responsible.

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Eric Patterson: And so we should be acting responsibly towards justice and towards security. So that's what this tradition is about. And again, there's great writing at Providence, and there's a circle of authors. My own work, mark Leveque, JD. Darryl, Charles Tim Demi, many others who are just important in this vein.

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Andy Miller III: This so helpful? And I'm

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Andy Miller III: but I'm really wanna jump at that book. But I wanna pull back a minute because I wanna I imagine that your interest in this area corresponds with your own experience. Tell us a little bit about how you found this kind of as a part of your vocation is even thinking about this subject, and just a little bit about you.

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Eric Patterson: Sure. Well, I, as a young person, thought I was going to be in the working in the church full time.

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Eric Patterson: in in clerical ministry, if you will, and went to a great Christian college of Angela University in Springfield, Missouri. I was a double major of Biblical studies and music education served in a small, actually Methodist church, my backgrounds assemblies of God, but as a as a as a music guy for 2 years, and just a small country church, which is a great learning opportunity.

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Eric Patterson: But God did change my path and did. And really I'd say the intersection of of thinking about

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Eric Patterson: national security and foreign policy and politics, and where that meets education. So they kind of in and out some government service, but also time and education. But the question I mean the thing that just motivates me over and over, and it and it excites me is how to think about ideas in the security space. So that's the fight against Communism. My work at the victims of Communism Museum thinks every single day about the ideational, the ideological threats.

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Eric Patterson: But in the past from the Soviet Union, but today from the new Socialism of Presidency in China.

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Eric Patterson: so ideas have consequences, especially in national security.

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Eric Patterson: For the last 20 years we've spent a lot of time thinking about violent Islamism. And you see how it motivated Hamas on October 7.th It's a set of ideas that drives national security decisions, and then, of course, the wonderful

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Eric Patterson: constitutional framework of ordered liberty that we have in the United States drives a different set of of way of thinking about the trade offs for national security policy and things. And so that type of question has brought me back again again as a believer as someone who believes that both testimon's matter for us today. And and then how do we think in a Christian fashion? How do we apply Christian worldview

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Eric Patterson: to political phenomena and national security phenomena.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah, you mentioned your work at the victims of Communism Memorial Foundation. I was listening to a sermon the other day, and this fits right in with a guest I had a couple of weeks ago, Aaron Wren. He's written a book called Life in the Negative World, and he has this separation that he has talking about how probably, like the fifties to early nineties, we were in the positive world, whereas to be a Christian, and then and then, between like 94, I think he has her 92 to

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Andy Miller III: 2014. You're in a neutral space, and then now we're in a negative world. Well, I was listening to a sermon by Tim Keller from this neutral time.

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Andy Miller III: and it was this interesting moment where he said, he was talking about ideas how ideas come and go.

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Andy Miller III: But he then said, for instance, Communism and Marxism, there's no con. There's not any Marxist today, or like who's a Marxist, and it. And and I think now that this was probably the early nineties where this was happening, I'm I imagine, for the end of his life he would recognize what was happening. But I'm I imagine people even hear me introduce you and say, Communism, wasn't that taken care of? I mean you? But you already highlighted. Some of these concern. I mean, what's the state of Communism in the world today?

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Eric Patterson: It's a bad state of affairs. So in the 20th century we lost 100 million souls

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Eric Patterson: to the murderers of Communism, 65 million in China, over 20 million in the Soviet Union, North Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, etc.

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Eric Patterson: And today there's still 1.5 billion people who live under the thumb of Communism. The first, st of course, is China

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Eric Patterson: and North Korea, Cuba. We we have some hard left governments also in Latin America. They claim to be Socialists. They are authoritarian, and they are brutal.

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Eric Patterson: They repress our primary freedoms. They don't recognize private property or religious freedom. Some talk about places like, especially Nicaragua right now, but also Venezuela and others. So we live in a time where there are hard left anti faith, anti Christian, anti basic human rights types out there in places like Nicaragua and Venezuela, and that there is a a dozen Latin American countries actually, who are

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Eric Patterson: pretty far on the left.

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Eric Patterson: Then you've got the Cubas, the North Koreas, and the China's out there, and people will say to me, Well.

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Eric Patterson: at least, Russia's not Communist, and I would agree that that probably the that the people, the henchmen around Vladimir Putin. They don't send their kids to be indoctrinated of Marxism anymore.

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Eric Patterson: But they still operate with a top down centrally controlled the oligarchs around Putin control most of the economy, most of the economy that matters they can ask. They connect with impunity when it comes to matters of warfare. So they've attacked Georgia. They've attacked, of course. Ukraine twice Moldova and other places.

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Eric Patterson: This is the old playbook, right? It may not have all the ideological pieces, but the political culture. That's a that's a top down single person directive. And then an oligarchy around him, controlling most of the economy. This is the same playbook. It's the legacy of Communism. In that case. Here, here's what's so amazing.

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Eric Patterson: You know, just a just about 6 weeks ago Alexander Navalny died right. He died in a Soviet prison. It's the same prison as I understand that in the town Shoreansky was in

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Eric Patterson: back in the 1980. S, so there's things that have just not changed. So we we live in a time where there's a a confrontation that needs to happen between the beautiful ideas that are judo Christian ideas that have found expression in ordered liberty, human dignity, that a Us. Bill of Rights and Declaration of independence. These ideas

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Eric Patterson: as a counter to hard left Wokism in Western societies, and the and the terrible false hope and lies of Socialism and Communism elsewhere.

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Andy Miller III: Hmm! Do you think it is a

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Andy Miller III: the possibility that these ideas become even more pre? I mean, so certainly it's possibility. But what's a likelihood of them becoming more present even in our own context. In the United States.

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Eric Patterson: Well, it's been very worrying recently to watch

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Eric Patterson: the protests in May of this year that were anti Israel. But what was so amazing about those protests was the openness of

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Eric Patterson: hard left Socialist groups and the the passing out, for instance, of of propaganda materials about how to organize, how to create chaos, etc. It was like a replay of weather underground and other terroristic groups. From the 1960 S. It was the same playbook cause chaos

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Eric Patterson: import outside actors

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Eric Patterson: threaten people. Intimidation, bullying, harassment.

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Eric Patterson: No civil discourse, etc, and and and then violence

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Eric Patterson: and threats of violence. So it is a worrying trend in our society. I think we're all. And actually people on the center left, in the center, right? There's a lot of concern about political violence in our country. But allowing, you know, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of these agitators to essentially go home for their beach summers is happened with most of them. It it's worrying for American law and order.

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Andy Miller III: Well, I encourage people to check out your website. Just simply victims of communism.org for more information on what's happening and and also to direct our prayers to for these places the world that don't have the same freedoms that we have.

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Andy Miller III: I'm I do wanna get to the book. I I'm really tempted just to ask you more about the victims of Communism. But I thought that the book is so interesting. How you started, and not too many pages. In you quote a longer quote from Cs. Lewis and a 1940 speech, I'm just gonna read the last part of that quote, which I think sets the stage

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Andy Miller III: for the rest of your book. Cs. Lewis said this, and maybe you can tell us a bit about the context a second, but to avert or postpone one particular war by wise policy, or to render one particular campaign shorter by strength and skill, or less terrible by mercy

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Andy Miller III: to the Concord and the civilians, is more useful than all the proposals for universal peace that have ever been made.

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Andy Miller III: He makes a strong statement here, so help help us! How does this set the stage for your argument?

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Eric Patterson: Yeah. So historians of that time period when they look at the foreign policies of Western countries call that interwar period the period from the end of the 1st World War, beginning the Second World War, a a time of idealism or Utopianism.

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Eric Patterson: And, in contrast, Lewis, like Grindold, Neighbor and others, is articulating a form of Christian realism here. And let me remind you, World War one was so destructive

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Eric Patterson: that at the end of the war many in the West said, that can never happen again. It's the war to end all wars, and we will do anything.

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Eric Patterson: And and so they put their hopes in

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Eric Patterson: outline war. The Kellogg Brand Pact ostensibly made war illegal, so he'll go to war if it's illegal.

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Eric Patterson: The Western Powers enforced a a disarmament pact that they imposed on themselves. But over time, of course, Germany broke it and rearmed, and and we could go on. But there was a set of of really farcical hopes that that good intentions and just thinking oh! Could never happen again, and speeches and OP. Eds, and books about illusory peace would be enough to keep the peace. But of course that's not what happened with Japan, and that's not what happened with the Nazis. And of course.

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Eric Patterson: early in the war the Soviets were allied with them as well and dismembering Eastern Europe.

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Eric Patterson: So Lewis

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Eric Patterson: is talking about the important role that lies

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Eric Patterson: government policy when it comes to national security and notice. He doesn't say it's just about making more guns or more battleships. He talks about that wise role that a diplomat plays in statecraft and deterrence.

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Eric Patterson: and that all of these elements working together today, you might say it's the people at the State Department working alongside the people at the Us Agency for International development, working with the National Security Council, working with the Department of the Treasury, who goes after terrorists working with the Us. Military, that this larger set of instruments of statecraft

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Eric Patterson: that they're there to promote the general welfare. They're there to promote peace, and that's what he's taught.

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Andy Miller III: In in by by pushy to get this idea, like, generally people just trying to lift up this ideal like we should just live for this perspective, and and operate like our state craft, in a way that then aligns with that that often it it just moves against. I guess the Christian realism that you're generally promoting.

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Eric Patterson: Yeah. And part of this is just getting the idea of piece right?

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure, that's it.

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Eric Patterson: A. And what I mean by that is, there's a just piece, and there's an unjust piece augustin talked about this. Quinus talked about this great Christian thinks of the past. You know the Nazis. If they win, they impose peace.

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Andy Miller III: Hmm.

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Eric Patterson: It's what Augustine would have called an iniquitous piece. Right? Yeah, it's it's piece. I mean, the the trains run on time. Certain types of people can live a very lavish lifestyle. The stores are open.

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Eric Patterson: but God forbid that you are a Jew or some other minority. Right? It is an iniquitous piece.

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Eric Patterson: What we are looking for is a just piece.

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Andy Miller III: Amen. You also go through helpfully the kind of like the basic foundations that you know we cover here at Wbs and our moral theology courses, and Dr. Steve Blakemore is really helpful in pushing some of these ideas here, for you know our students who are listening. If you haven't taken that class yet make sure to sign up for it. But the the basic ideas of use add Bellam and use in Belm, bellow. Could you just outline the differences between those perspectives.

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Eric Patterson: Sure thing. So when we think about just statecraft, we think about 3 big questions.

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Eric Patterson: when is it moral to use force?

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Eric Patterson: Second, once, that decision's been made.

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Eric Patterson: How can force be employed in? In a moral manner?

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Eric Patterson: And then, 3, rd as we look at late and post conflict.

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Eric Patterson: what what are the steps you could take towards a moral and enduring peace.

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Eric Patterson: So in that 1st category what we call you, said Bellmer, the ethics of using force.

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Eric Patterson: We start with really 3 criteria and neat, that you can use these criteria thinking about almost any political phenomena or social phenomena you can think about in terms of church government, even

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Eric Patterson: proper authority.

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Eric Patterson: just cause.

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Eric Patterson: and right intention. So legitimate governing authorities

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Eric Patterson: should make decisions based on a just cause, such as self defense, preventing wrong, punishing wrong doers or riding past wrongs that comes from Agustin.

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Eric Patterson: And but 3rd was right intention.

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Eric Patterson: And the really and this is a great Christian innovation in the realm of foreign affairs, and it is we can act out of neighbor love. We can act out of righteous indignation

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Eric Patterson: to pursue justice and security.

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Eric Patterson: We do not have to act. It's immoral. It's illicit to act out of vengeful wrath.

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Eric Patterson: out of hatred, out of greed or lust.

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Eric Patterson: And so authority just cause right intention. And then there are some secondary prudential criteria that then you think about the from a stewardship perspective kind of the cost benefit. What's the likelihood of success of this or that, or this other course of action? Are we kind of at a reasonable last resort to use force? But again, it's authorities making those determinations.

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Eric Patterson: The second area, as you mentioned, is use and bellow, and once the decision to use force is made, there are historically 3 criteria. Here. The 1st is the idea of military necessity, and that is, we have a goal of winning.

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Eric Patterson: So we expect that on this battlefield, in this place and time, that every reasonable, every lawful effort is made to win in this engagement.

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Eric Patterson: and and part of that is, is the ideas of of counting the cost. How much ammunition do we have? How do we protect our own troops? Those things play into this concept.

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Eric Patterson: but it's restrained by the principle of proportionality.

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Andy Miller III: Then we should.

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Eric Patterson: Only use as much force as the threat is in this situation, so you don't drop an atomic bomb on a sniper.

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Eric Patterson: I don't think the cost you. You think about the proportionate response on this battlefield at this time.

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Eric Patterson: and the principle of distinction or discrimination which distinguishes between legitimate military targets, like soldiers and military convoys, and and and illegitimate ones, such as houses of worship.

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Eric Patterson: private property.

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Eric Patterson: hospitals.

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Eric Patterson: and of course, civilians as much as possible. So those are those 2 kind of driving things as we think about conflict actually unfolding.

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Andy Miller III: That's helpful. You bring bring up the concept of proportionality. And I found your section really helpful as you talked about the nuclear bombs that were dropped in Japan and talking about the just cause behind that, could you? Could you talk about like a lot of times? It'd be compute maybe

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Andy Miller III: targeted as something that is wasn't proportionate. But tell us a little bit about how you, as a just war scholar, describe and think about that. I found that section of the book really helpful.

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Eric Patterson: Thanks. I appreciate that. Well, the best guy on this is Mark Leveki. We've mentioned his name a couple of times before. He has a book that'll come out next year specifically, on dropping the atomic bombs in in this book I talk about it, and in my book from 2,019, called just American wars, which is a set of stories and kind of case studies from different Us. Wars. I look at the dropping of bombs, and and here's what it really comes down to

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Eric Patterson: that. After careful study, the analysis by the Us. Military and senior civilian leadership was that to end the war in the Far East would cost a million additional casualties.

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Andy Miller III: Wow!

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Eric Patterson: The one place. One thing that I read was that 10,000 Americans.

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Eric Patterson: Chinese, Filipinos, and others were dying in Japanese concentration camps

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Eric Patterson: a week

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Eric Patterson: they weren't being thrown into the ovens, as happened with the Nazis. They were largely dying of starvation

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Eric Patterson: and being worked to death.

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Eric Patterson: and we've we forget that there were essentially concentration camps, and that literally

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Eric Patterson: millions of Chinese who are close allies were dying at the hands of the Japanese. During this time. So a million more people were going to die

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Eric Patterson: going into August of 1945, and recall that in the previous months on islands in the South Pacific the Japanese had fought literally to the last man that they were sending kamikaze raids. We have documented footage that they were training on the home islands, women and children on how to fight

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Eric Patterson: how to how to sacrifice themselves by going under a tank with a grenade, etc.

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Eric Patterson: So Truman and his advisors made a decision.

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Eric Patterson: We are going to use this new weapon

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Eric Patterson: to try to bring this war to a halt.

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Eric Patterson: If I recall correctly the immediate numbers of of battle dead from those 2 bombings somewhere around 100 5,000 70,000 people. I don't remember the exact number at the top of my head.

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Eric Patterson: but the the difference between

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Eric Patterson: a million deaths

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Eric Patterson: and a hundred 5,000 80,000 deaths is pretty stark. And I think that one thing that's often lost in this

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Eric Patterson: is that we sometimes set some sort of double standard that the American service personnel.

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Eric Patterson: Well, it's okay for them to die. But it's not okay for the Japanese to die. But I just remind you that on December 7, th 1941,

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Eric Patterson: all of those American service personnel, except for 300,000 men. That's how small our military was. Just 300,000 men.

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Eric Patterson: It grew to 5 million, but just 300,000 men scattered here, and yet every tiny military. We were not prepared for war.

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Eric Patterson: Those guys were bakers and doctors, pharmacists and farmers. They were husbands and dads, brothers, sons

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Eric Patterson: they were, they were civilians.

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Eric Patterson: They were not ramping up for war until we were modestly attacked.

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Eric Patterson: And so we have to take these things into consideration.

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Eric Patterson: And Truman, the one President who fought in the trenches of World War one. He knew what it was like. He knew his responsibility was to protect American human life. 1st and foremost. Our allies. Second, bring the war to a close. And so when you look at those factors, it, it really is clear that it was. It was. It was. It was a terrible, destructive act.

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Eric Patterson: but it brought the war to a close. It actually saved human life.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah.

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Andy Miller III: this is very helpful, that analysis. And again, I just point people to a book where there's more detail. I was surprised when I got to the book I got to 4th chapter morality and contemporary warfare, you know. Here I'm I'm reading a book. If if somebody, if I happen to be on the beach, and here I am reading the book on just war. I think people have been surprised to see me laughing. Because you got to do this great analogy, this great illustration, and I never. I did not anticipate when I got there that I would see you talk about Monty Python

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Andy Miller III: and the Holy Grail and the Black Knight. So 1st you ha! You obviously have to be a fan, and so tell us about that, and then tell us, give.

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Andy Miller III: tell us this illustration that you use, and I think I think people who are looking to explain just war. I think you might find this is an interesting way to describe it.

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Eric Patterson: Well, thanks for asking about the chapter and mentioning the chapter title, and I'll just say that the chapter titles in the book

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Eric Patterson: actually are nods there. There's an insider thing here that they're nods to the work of great just war thinkers. And James Turner Johnson, who's been a very important older generation just for his story. And he's kind of the Dean of just war thinking former records, Professor. He's been a friend and mentor to many of the people I've just talked about earlier in the in this podcast

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Eric Patterson: and he has a famous book from 1,999, called Morality and Contemporary Warfare. So the chapter titles are

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Eric Patterson: our our wings at my friends, not, or nods of respect. Maybe it would be a better way to say it in this case, as so many of us know this famous scene. It's a this pop cultural icon where Arthur, King of the Britons and Monty Pythons, the Holy Grail kind of rides up on his

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Eric Patterson: bony horse and and and and sees a black knight fighting a green knight, and the fight a valiant battle, and the Black Knight wins.

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Eric Patterson: and Arthur again. The King of the realm then goes up to the Black Knight and and addresses him and invites him.

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Eric Patterson: because of his valiant feet of arms, to join the Knights of the Round Table.

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Eric Patterson: and you may recall the Black Knight doesn't answer. He doesn't move an inch. He just stands there ominously.

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Eric Patterson: and Arthur says you make me very sad.

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Eric Patterson: and at Arthur

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Eric Patterson: starts to proceed, and you'll notice that there's a bridge over a chasm.

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Eric Patterson: So this is this is a thoroughfare.

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Eric Patterson: and the Black Knight famously says none shall pass.

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Andy Miller III: Ends up.

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Eric Patterson: Almost the voice of Darth Vader. None shall pass.

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Eric Patterson: and it causes the 2 of them to fight.

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Eric Patterson: And the question in this is.

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Eric Patterson: shouldn't Arthur just turn the other cheek?

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Eric Patterson: Shouldn't he just turn around and right away?

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Eric Patterson: And the I use this as an example, because it's a great example of those

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Eric Patterson: this principle just were.

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Eric Patterson: ideas of authority just cause, right intention. Arthur is king of the Britons. He is not a private citizen.

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Eric Patterson: and there is a a vigilante or criminal

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Eric Patterson: out there a brigand who does not allow the common people to cross this bridge. This person is acting as an authority unto himself. He is violating the fundamental principle of law and order of the realm, and Arthur as king.

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Eric Patterson: is acting justly by removing this threat.

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Eric Patterson: and and he's acting with right intentions he doesn't want. He doesn't hate this guy. He's acting on behalf of peace and security. And what's you know the the part of this. It's so funny. Everybody knows this, you know. It's it's merely a flush wound, is Arthur Chops off one arm and the other in the legs. But you know it. It's actually pretty chilly when you think about it, because that's what Al Qaeda is like. That's what Hamas is like.

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Eric Patterson: That is what the most, the the worst perpetrators of terroristic violence is motivated by by a by radical ideology. They they're like a rattlesnake head that keeps biting for a while, even after you've severed it from its body. And so there really is a a second lesson there about the the virulence, the hateful virulence

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Eric Patterson: of some of these types of groups, but it really is a fun analogy. And it really, I think, helps us get the point of Arthur is acting as authority. I'm just cause with right intention. He's not seeking violence. He's not seeking to impose as well. He's not trying to plunder. He he's he's he's clearing the rose as King.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, I wish, whenever that moment was where the Holy Spirit inspired you, to think of the I can't just imagine it. Now you're sitting down with Jennifer watching the Holy Grail, and that you know what I think. I'll be able to use this in a book.

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Andy Miller III: Okay.

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Eric Patterson: I think it came out of being in a debate where I was the only

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Eric Patterson: pro just statecraft guy against 5 or 6 pacifists.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah. Hey?

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Eric Patterson: It was inspired at the moment.

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Andy Miller III: Was it? It came right? Okay, interesting.

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Eric Patterson: Yeah, I mean, pre preparing for that

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Eric Patterson: preparing for that debate. It came out of that. So it's very, very. It's been very, very useful teaching tool.

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Andy Miller III: Interesting. I'm always interested when in a book that it causes me to change my language.

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Andy Miller III: And I this is just a short, short section. I'm sorry I've not. I just made a note of it. It?

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Andy Miller III: Well, no, it's oh, it's in the same chapter. So where you talk about the American revolution which you're causing me to maybe not use the word revolution going forward, and it might even be this podcast will probably come out close to July 4th people might even hear some of the pieces as to whether or not

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Andy Miller III: the the Co. Colonialists were pursuing a just war that they have just caused, and even challenge. The idea is really helpful to me to not even use the word revolution, and to think, before 1776. So I'd love for you to unfold some of that in some of your thinking about the

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Andy Miller III: well, I forget which word you I should not

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Andy Miller III: beyond revolution. How we should describe it.

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Eric Patterson: Well, thanks, and I'm so glad to talk about this topic, because it's seems to be. There seems to be confusion in the church, although not the rest of society, about the justice of 1,776. But one of the things that that I try to do in the book is to help us get our language right? So there really is a difference between an iniquitous piece and the just piece, right? There's a difference between righteous anger, what we call righteous indignation and vengeful wrath. So there's different species of of anger.

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Eric Patterson: There's different ways of thinking about love appropriately. And there's different ways. There's a difference between force which is restrained and lawful and in the hands of authority and violence which is unrestrained. It's in temperament. It seeks to harm. It's not focused on the common good. And so, really thinking about these distinctions, what Gene Bethka's chain calls making right distinctions helps us.

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Eric Patterson: And one of these right distinctions is, is is, think about the American war for independence. Now true.

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Eric Patterson: some of our founding fathers called it a revolution, although they called it a revolution in ideas, right?

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Eric Patterson: Less. So typically and I, you know, I'm a poly side guy.

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Eric Patterson: So social scientists typically use the term revolution

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Eric Patterson: to mean a, a, an ideological movement that seizes power, it burns down the institutions of the past.

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Eric Patterson: Church, the family, the old legal code.

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Eric Patterson: and there's some sort of elite who want to impose their idealistic version on society. By the way they know better than us.

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Eric Patterson: That's the French Revolution. That's the Russian Revolution of 1917 with a Communist ideology. That's the Chinese Revolution of 1941, led by Mao. It's the in. It's the revolutions led by elites in Vietnam and Laos and Cambodia. It's certainly Fidel Castro in Cuba. So a and and it's the Ayatollahs in around. So revolution a revolutionary movement

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Eric Patterson: tries to break with the past. And what were the founding fathers saying all along.

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Eric Patterson: poor Englishman.

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Eric Patterson: we just want to live with the rights and privileges that we've had under our colonial charters for the last 150 years, right

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Eric Patterson: from the Mayflower Compact in 1620.

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Eric Patterson: For the next nearly 150 years there was a social compact where there was a lot of liberty and self-government under the basic framework of the British

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Eric Patterson: that really starts to change for a variety of reasons after the French and Indian war, as there's the British start to impose, Parliament starts to impose taxes.

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Eric Patterson: And for people who really you want to just crystallize this.

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Eric Patterson: Remember that the battles, the shot, what we call the shot heard round the world.

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Eric Patterson: The tax on American citizens at Lexington and Concord happened on April 19, th

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Eric Patterson: 1775,

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Eric Patterson: not in 1776,

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Eric Patterson: and the in Virginia, where I live. The royal governor moved troops to take over the arms at Williamsburg, at the Royal Armoury.

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Eric Patterson: The next day.

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Eric Patterson: April 20, th

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Eric Patterson: 1775.

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Eric Patterson: So red coded

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Eric Patterson: German

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Eric Patterson: Hessian mercenaries.

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Andy Miller III: Hmm.

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Eric Patterson: Killing

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Eric Patterson: British citizens

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Eric Patterson: in America after several years of

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Eric Patterson: blockading Boston harbor, throwing people in jail without trial by jury.

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Eric Patterson: etc, etc, etc, and and the Colonials actually sent a dozen

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Eric Patterson: declarations to Congress before the Declaration of Independence, including a very important one called the Declaration of the United Colonies, July second, 75,

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Eric Patterson: a year before the Declaration of Independence, and in that declaration they list all of these grievances, and then they say

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Eric Patterson: we don't want to fight. Stop attacking us.

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Eric Patterson: Please stop. We're not trying to build an empire. We're not trying to start a we're not. We're not. We're not seeking outside allies like the French or the Spanish, although they'll probably come.

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Eric Patterson: Our intention is just self-defense.

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Eric Patterson: Stop the move towards a calamitous civil war.

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Eric Patterson: That's what they called it, not a new birth of freedom, not an independence movement.

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Eric Patterson: even after after they had been attacked

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Eric Patterson: for essentially 90 days, and it seemed like the war, was accelerating.

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Eric Patterson: They were declaring that their intention

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Eric Patterson: was to guard and protect their families and their way of life under British law, not to radically tear down the old order and impose a new one. And I gotta tell you if you lived in Boston

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Eric Patterson: and young German non-english speaking troops were quartered in your house with your teenage daughter.

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Eric Patterson: you'd probably feel like you had a just cost.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, it's so much like, Hey, I did I, in reading that I just put it in a different perspective for me. So what was happening, and also just to the point back to these actions that had already been taken. Yeah, it. It's easy for us to have these sound byte pieces that help us describe this, maybe, like, just from our basic courses that we have from elementary school. But I I really appreciate you kind of setting the stage for that.

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Andy Miller III: Now. One other thing at least I leave. I hope you have time for at least one other thing I'd love to hear. Hear a distinction between Malcolm X. And Martin Luther King, Jr. And how you unfold these distinctions in the context of just war, because one of the things.

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Andy Miller III: often, you know Martin Luther King, Jr. Is brought to the fore as somebody, of course, with non violence, and like, when could nonviolence be appropriate but when we're thinking of state craft, I think this is where some of these distinctions come. So I'd love for you to talk about that distinction. You make.

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Eric Patterson: Yeah, well, it's a it's what's what's very interesting is is that 1 point, Martin Luther King, Jr. Says something to the effect of you know, if you're if you're fighting against the British Empire with its with its where it says it values democracy and human rights, you can be a Gandhi.

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Eric Patterson: But if you're fighting against Hitler and the Nazis.

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Eric Patterson: you may have to be a bond offer.

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Eric Patterson: That's not an exact quote, but that's the sentiment that he makes. And so it's, you know, it's important. People sometimes say, Well, can't we do civil disobedience to end the war.

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Eric Patterson: and certainly could do some civil disciplines to try to restrain your own government from illicit activities.

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Eric Patterson: But we're not gonna deploy Americans to do civil disobedience, to stop the Nazis, to stop the Soviets, to stop the Japanese, etc. That's that's not gonna work. Ask the Ukrainians today, after 2 years of aggression by Russia, is is a protest. March along the battle line. Is that going to stop the Russians from burning churches, killing school children, and the like, and the answer is, No.

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Eric Patterson: but Martin Luther King, Jr. Is very, very helpful in a lot of ways.

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Eric Patterson: I I urge people to read particularly letter from a Birmingham jail. And we're in June right now, as we're taping this as we come up on June.

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Eric Patterson: I urge you to read, as I have a dream speech and read letter from Birmingham jail because he does talk about how to how up, how a how a Christian can act against injustice.

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Eric Patterson: and and his his method of civil disobedience begins with, evaluate the facts, present them to public authorities, and then and then you stop

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Eric Patterson: and you purify yourself. They would have prayer meetings, they would go to church.

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Eric Patterson: and they would evaluate if they were willing to suffer, and if they were acting out of love of country, love of the common good, love of neighbor, or if they were asked acting out of hatred and vengeance.

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Eric Patterson: And then they went out

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Eric Patterson: and did the march did the rally.

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Eric Patterson: and and what they were fighting against was just laws unjustly applied. But white people can have a parade. Black people can't have a march, or clearly unjust laws like the Jim Crow laws and the violence of lynching and things associated with that

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Eric Patterson: and King, because

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Eric Patterson: this was a democratic society kept putting on the pressure, putting on the pressure. And of course, having TV at that time period to show the graphic images. The American conscience just

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Eric Patterson: couldn't stand it anymore. Malcolm X.

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Eric Patterson: Is is kind of a representative of a of a different model and a model, and and people beyond in like the black panthers, that vengeful violence

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Eric Patterson: is okay. In other words, it's it's, you know, if if if we're if we're if we're suffering unjustly, then vengeful violence, like the riots and Watts, the riots in Detroit, that that targeted businesses that targeted their neighbors that burned down parts of the city, that that type of rage is appropriate and for for Christians and for just statecraft in any manifestation, that type of destructive rage is never appropriate.

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Andy Miller III: Eric. One of the things that people might be wondering now, is, when we think about what's happening in Ukraine. You've mentioned it a few times the libertarian approach would say, oh, we don't need to be involved there. This isn't our war. We need to stop funding it.

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Andy Miller III: or maybe the pacifist approach would be some ha! Something similar this a la lack of engagement like pull back! What do you? What would you say, like, how could you help Christians think about the situation that we're dealing? I mean, of course, there's other situations that we're in globally, but this may be the one that's most prominent.

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Eric Patterson: Yeah, let's let's talk about both Taiwan and Ukraine. And so 1 1 way of thinking about peace.

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Eric Patterson: and there's a famous Latin proverb, if you want peace, prepare for war, and so there's a deterrent function to having enough strength

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Eric Patterson: that a that an aggressor counts the cost, and certainly in the case of Taiwan.

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Eric Patterson: One of the reasons that the Chinese Government has not attacked them, although they they're sable rattling constantly. But one of the reasons that they haven't is because Taiwan does have some robust defenses. And there there's kind of a question of with the Us. Intervene on behalf of Taiwan, and I would like to think that we would.

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Eric Patterson: The, in the case of Ukraine, Ukraine was actually kept provocatively weak.

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Eric Patterson: and it was the policy of the West to not allow Ukraine to arm

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Eric Patterson: in, in the hopes that over time that that would keep the peace in a sense, by Russia not having to worry about Ukraine being belligerent

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Eric Patterson: problem is not whether or not Ukraine would arm itself to attack Russia. That's never been the problem.

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Eric Patterson: The problem in Ukraine's case is it's a big, flat country. For the most part it's the breadbasket of Europe and Africa.

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Eric Patterson: It has other resources, but that as it became more western

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Eric Patterson: and more democratic.

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Eric Patterson: And you know Ukraine's 1 country that has religious freedom. It has robust denominationalism, it has it. It's kind of stumbled, but it's been working towards a better polity and human rights and things. It's model of turning from east to west. That's the threat to a putin. He doesn't want people outside of his sphere of influence on his borders. Who else might go that route? Belarus might go that route or others? So

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Eric Patterson: what my view is is that we should be helping the Ukrainians be able to defend themselves.

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Eric Patterson: We wouldn't give them weapons before, so they're very unprepared. It was very hard for them to to take self responsibility and deter. So my my own view is.

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Eric Patterson: 1st and foremost.

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Eric Patterson: let the let the country that's been attacked

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Eric Patterson: have the tools to defend itself. And then, second.

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Eric Patterson: a second kind of subsidiary principle is

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Eric Patterson: Russia's clearly a strategic threat to us in many, many ways.

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Eric Patterson: Keep the fight over there.

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Eric Patterson: you know. In other words.

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Eric Patterson: it's it's it's part of our. It's part of our interest. Russia's not a good faith actor on the global scale. They're a bully. They break the laws, they torture, murder their own people, they torture and murder Christians. So this is a bad regime, and so, taking actions that sap it of its strength, and that call out, it's illegitimacy.

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Eric Patterson: that's all to the good.

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Andy Miller III: That's helpful. Mark. Oh, sorry! Called you, Mark Eric. Sorry I was thinking of the mark so much.

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Andy Miller III: Eric, I always ask a question. If there's more to the story, I say in my podcast and yeah, I know you've been on, been interviewed, a lot, different places. But is there something you could tell us about yourself there? More to the story of Eric, that maybe you don't get a share very often. That might be kind of fun.

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Andy Miller III: Don't just.

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Eric Patterson: Yeah. Well, just say, in this space one of the one of the great joys of my life was for over 24 years to surf in the International Guard.

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Eric Patterson: and to do that that you know, as an Air Force Reservist as a band officer. And so the vast majority of that time was telling the story about the Air Force and the National Guard and getting to do that through music so patriotic holidays. The 4th of July Memorial Day Veterans Day. We're all glorious work days for me for over 24 years.

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Eric Patterson: It's something that I miss. I'm a musician, and I love that, but it was also honestly it it made me think a lot about. Where's where's that? Where do? Where? Where does that robust patriotism stop

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Eric Patterson: before becoming, say idolatry.

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Eric Patterson: And as Cs. Lewis in the 4 Loves talks about rightful patriotism, it's in the book, and I just recommend people thinking about that that God put us in a place at a specific time and location. It's perfectly appropriate to love, own.

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Eric Patterson: We should just never be chauvinistic about it. We can love home, and we can be proud of it to a, to a, to a fun, militant degree, like the way we feel about our teams at the Olympics. We want to win.

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Eric Patterson: We're not gonna kill. We're not. We're not gonna kill the Chilean soccer team. We're not gonna kill the Swiss volleyball team. Right? So it's a it's a. It's a love of country that recognizes that the Japanese and the French they all love their country just as much, because that's where they've been placed. And so a beautiful you know, there's a beautiful. There's a beautiful thing in the Bible at the end of times, when all tribes and kindred and nations come marching in

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Eric Patterson: before the King of kings. And you know God did create the beautiful diversity of this world. And so it's perfect. So we should respect the others. The difference, the beautiful contributions that they've made in food, culture, history, politics, whatever it is.

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Eric Patterson: And

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Eric Patterson: we should we? It's perfectly appropriate

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Eric Patterson: to have rightful patriotism, and if you want to know where the line is, the lines twofold.

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Eric Patterson: have you idolized it over? God.

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Eric Patterson: we should never do that we should never make politics or our government, or our way of life, be something that we worship more than the Lord. It's all subserving to him. And second, is it chauvinistic in a way that degrades the fundamental value, the human dignity of the other

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Eric Patterson: hyperforms of nationalism

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Eric Patterson: go that route? Violent Islamism goes that route. So a rightful patriotism is never idolatrous

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Eric Patterson: and rightful patriotism is never is never chauvinistic in a negative way like that. So.

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Andy Miller III: What instrument did you play? Do you play? What instrument.

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Eric Patterson: Trumpet and a little bit of pm, yeah.

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Andy Miller III: Okay.

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Eric Patterson: Most of my my time and some grad work was in conducting, and the chance to to work with a group of musicians like that is just. It's a true joy.

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Andy Miller III: Which ensembles were you in? I'm a trumpet player myself, and I was a music major in college, so.

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Eric Patterson: Oh, awesome! Well, then, you know. So I was up. I played in Bras with Ted with the military bands a bit over the years of course, concert band and marching band, those types of things. But again I mostly as a as the band commander conducted the concert band and was responsible kind for the larger musical direction, and then got to work with

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Eric Patterson: incredible professional musicians. You know, we had jazz band leaders who led the jazz band. We had brass quintet leaders who led that group and just a really wonderful, wonderful opportunity that I'm I'm so thankful for.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, I I have a lot of friends who've played in the various ensembles in the DC. Area. And I I love. I love that we still have this as a part of our military tradition. Of course, you know, like the trumpet players handshake, it's like, Hi! I'm better than you. So bring that up

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Andy Miller III: I grew up in the Salvation Army. So for in 15 years I served the savage army. So I have a what happened is it. The brass band tradition was used because savish army would play outdoors portable music portable instruments. And so that became a part of the culture. The Salvation Army. So what's happened is, we have a lot of great players, and they end up doing it professionally so. My friend Steve

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Andy Miller III: Paula, he would write for the for I think the President's own. I have some

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Andy Miller III: laden those ensemble. So yeah.

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Andy Miller III: anyways, that's that's a. It's interesting to think about that side of your life and and and being a performer, and then how that and and what you do for the troops what you do for the country. And then now on this more academic side, and and and really helping people think about the nature of what it means to be a good citizen. And also just thinking about the nature of warfare.

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Andy Miller III: This has been such a blessing, Eric, to be able from you. Thank you for this book I just recommended to everybody. Check it. Out comes from Baker Academic. I was put up on the screen again a basic guide to the just war tradition, Christian foundations and Practices published by Baker. Academic Eric. Thank you so much for your time today.

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Eric Patterson: Andy, you honor me with this opportunity. I wish you the best. It's great to meet you this way, and I look forward to seeing you again. Thank you.