The Post COVID Church with Stuart Kellogg

Stuart Kellogg spent the last 18 months interviewing almost 100 pastors, lay leaders, and faith-based organizational experts, curating hundreds of stories and delving into key research projects in order to present insights and best practices that will help the church come out of this pandemic thriving, just surviving. We talk about his new book, The Post Covid Church: An Action Plan to THRIVE, Not Just Survive.

YouTube - https://youtu.be/3MX4zSDQ9h0
Audio - https://andymilleriii.com/media/podcast
Apple - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-to-the-story-with-dr-andy-miller/id1569988895?uo=4

Stuart Kellogg, a graduate of Syracuse University and Wesley Biblical Seminary, is a retired TV Executive. He started The Post Covid Church project in the Spring of 2020 and it includes a website, podcast, and YouTube Channel. He and his wife Beth have two grown children and four grandchildren. Stuart and Beth live in Fairhope, AL. To contact him: stuart@thepostcovidchurch.org

Website: www.thepostcovidchurch.com

Link to buy the book: https://bit.ly/PostCovidChurchBook

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You can find out more about Bill’s business at www.WilliamHRoberts.com

AND

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Transcript:

Welcome to the more to the story podcast i'm so glad you've come along today.

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Andy Miller III: I am privileged to have on the show with me, Mr Stewart Kellogg who's a retired media professional he's an author speaker he's somebody who's actively involved in lay ministry around the country Stuart welcome to the podcast.

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Stuart Kellogg: Thank you Andy love being here.

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Andy Miller III: Well, and also, you have a close connection with Wesley biblical seminaries one of the sponsors for this podcast you serve them the board you've been a student so and you worked in the Jackson area for a while, was that the case.

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Stuart Kellogg: that's right, I worked there for almost a quarter of a century, I had moved a lot in the business, I was in television and started in the talent and on the air.

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Stuart Kellogg: And then got into the management and use management and part of that business is you move around to get the bigger markets and I did a lot of moving and my goal has always been to run a TV station and.

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Stuart Kellogg: So in November of.

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Stuart Kellogg: 1991 moved to Jackson to run the ABC station on by hearst.

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Stuart Kellogg: TV okay terrific company and I tell the story, you know appreciate this with children, so our youngest allison turned 11 the march after we moved.

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Stuart Kellogg: I was about ready to take her to school and and she said Daddy i'm so excited I said, well, of course, it's your birthday and she said no i'm now more years older than houses i've lived in.

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Stuart Kellogg: haha so that was a.

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Stuart Kellogg: We had moved around a lot, but I made a promise to her at that time and was able to keep it, so I stayed in Jackson for 25 years and during that time got to go to Wesley, which is the wonderful wonderful seven years of nights and weekends and.

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Stuart Kellogg: wow Google seminar.

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Andy Miller III: Now, did you actually earn a degree in those seven years, are you just taking classes for your own development.

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Stuart Kellogg: Yes, I did no I got a degree that you know i'd like to if i'm going to do it, so I have a 60 hours massive 60 our masters.

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Stuart Kellogg: Okay, yes.

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Andy Miller III: wow well and then you've retired to, and now I helped me know where you're you're in the kind of panhandle area Florida.

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Stuart Kellogg: No, no, in Alabama please.

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Andy Miller III: Okay we're good we're in the Nice part.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, please yes.

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Stuart Kellogg: we're right down the road where it all comes together, this is the other la lower Alabama we call it, and it was coming home, if you will i'm a new yorker you can tell i'm not much of a southern accent and I moved.

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Stuart Kellogg: from New York I graduated from Syracuse university and was intelligent there and move down to immobile to be a reporter at the CBS affiliate immobile wk O rg.

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Stuart Kellogg: and doing a story met my wife and we married and I both have children or were born immobile and I went into management across the street at the NBC station at the time now fox who la and then in the mid 80s 1985 we moved.

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Stuart Kellogg: And so it's coming home my wife, although born in Jackson grew up in mobile.

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Stuart Kellogg: High School college and taught for quite a while and so just couple years ago after return, we came back to this la lower Alabama i'm in fairhope which is across the bay from mobile.

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Andy Miller III: gotcha now it's interesting to you, you let something slide there, you said you met her on a story that mean like you were out like recording a story like a tree fell on somebody's house and it happened to be her house, I mean.

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Andy Miller III: Give me the short version of that story.

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Stuart Kellogg: Oh, it was a great person, so no she was a schoolteacher.

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Stuart Kellogg: Okay, and I can remember like yesterday you know march march 1 1978 and, and so I was given the assignment she was a teacher to Theodore, which is an area just outside immobile.

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Stuart Kellogg: And she was having a mock wedding she taught family living, and so the kids had a mock wedding and then they would be paired up and they would have to go through certain things in lives they pick pick a paper, and it would say you lost your job so you'd have to go find a job.

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Stuart Kellogg: How many died, you have to price a funeral anyway it's kind of a neat.

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Stuart Kellogg: story, so this was the mock wedding the big mock wedding so I went there and did the story and that's that's how I met her.

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Andy Miller III: hahaha I love it, you know wedding bells very near future, too.

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Stuart Kellogg: And that funny yes so so about a little over a year, about a year and a half later married.

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Andy Miller III: And oh wow.

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Stuart Kellogg: yeah and we've been married now for 42 and a half years.

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Andy Miller III: amen love it so we come today talk about your new book, the post coven church, so this is something we all been working through and I served as a pasture for a year and a half.

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Andy Miller III: And emits a coven yeah work through a lockdown and all those type of things so i'm really anxious to hear what you've learned or actually let's just start like what led you to write this book in the first place.

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Stuart Kellogg: So I again i'm in the Laity we had moved from Mississippi at the end of 2015 and retired.

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Stuart Kellogg: A move to Georgia to help take care of my father in law widowed and ill and we're there for a couple years and after he passed, we came back here.

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Stuart Kellogg: So we had been here just not that long arm when the pandemic it about a year and I was just watching, as I was looking trying to do, different ministry things I watched how various churches reacted at the beginning.

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Andy Miller III: So.

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Stuart Kellogg: I call turtle churches hunker down cut cut programs and just waiting for normal to return.

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Stuart Kellogg: And then watching what other churches were doing it really reaching out and saying this is an opportunity, and it just struck me, and so I started interviewing people and I wrote a column a couple thousand word calm.

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Stuart Kellogg: And I was trying to get it published and I was working in the yard, one day, and a name popped in my head Joe strategy Joe stranger lives and originally Mississippi runs edge theory very much in the social media he and I after seminary I studied under chuckles.

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Stuart Kellogg: The colson Center for Christian worldview yeah and I was in the fourth class.

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Stuart Kellogg: A Joe from Mississippi was in the first class, so we had met through the alumni on his name popped into my head, as I was raking.

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Stuart Kellogg: So I had dumped over five years, I texted him I said i'm working on this, he texted right back so let's talk today and we talked he said look he can write an article.

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Stuart Kellogg: Somebody read it they'll nod and go on and he said, you need to get in social media let's make this a movement and so that was the impetus.

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Stuart Kellogg: For the post covert church starting as a Facebook group and then growing into a podcast a website and APP arm, and so I would do regular videos blogging interviews podcasts just looking at what different.

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Stuart Kellogg: Churches, but also professionals such as George barna who's done research, for you know, a couple generations on the Church, I was able to speak to him and another so.

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Stuart Kellogg: Leadership experts and so just kind of broad look at what different churches were doing put in a lot of surveys.

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Stuart Kellogg: um and so as it grew and the file was grew my wife beth said, you need to make it into a book and you've got all this material and so that's what I did and published it late in 2021 kind of the ideas that the subtitle the post go with churches and action plan to thrive, not just survive.

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Andy Miller III: Right great.

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Stuart Kellogg: that's that's that's that's the idea that.

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Andy Miller III: Even the name of the movement, the social media movement, the podcast the book this whole idea that is interesting because it says post coven and it's January 2022 and I don't know that, where you, yet there were not postcode So what do you what are you getting that with a name.

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Stuart Kellogg: Yes, and that's one of those things saying boy if i'd known more, because I, I believe, is going to be endemic it's going to be around like the flu, so will it will be really true but from a.

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Stuart Kellogg: pandemic standpoint that's going to end and we can argue that it's it's close to ending as a pandemic sure.

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Stuart Kellogg: And so the idea is.

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Stuart Kellogg: I just like pumps kill it, I guess, I could call it post pandemic.

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Stuart Kellogg: In the sense of what the church will be on the other side.

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Stuart Kellogg: Of the shutdowns of the changes and, of course, as you know, at the top of this is all that was happening to the church anyway, the Church was losing influence it was losing members, it was had all these issues this simply accelerated it.

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Stuart Kellogg: And I pushed it faster.

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Andy Miller III: And that's happened on many friends, not just been in a church right that's what people have said it happened with co video, is it it's an accelerator of business problems of accelerator of social problems things to like mental health concerns all of these things it's just magnified.

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Andy Miller III: it's already going on and so that's likely what you seen happen in church So what do you see like what is your biggest concern with the church now, in the midst of Kobe and emerging to a postcode state.

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Stuart Kellogg: My biggest concern is that too many churches are saying okay we'll just go back we're back to normal.

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Stuart Kellogg: And, and I see it, where I am and it's like man you don't understand.

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Stuart Kellogg: You look at the numbers and we know young the young always left right they would they would leave the church and then, when they married and had kids they would.

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Stuart Kellogg: Come back or they're not coming back and when the data and it's in the book, they are the tracking the the ones 10 years ago in their 20s now in their 30s they're not coming back as they did before.

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Stuart Kellogg: The whole idea of how even going into the idea of how politicize the churches it's affecting the witness of the Church, if you will, to the lost.

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Stuart Kellogg: It is.

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Stuart Kellogg: The whole idea of where does the church fit for those who used to go i'm seeing it with the with the younger families and.

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Stuart Kellogg: they're not coming is often and so it's even getting more Gray hair, I think the problem and leadership is they're just going back to what it was rather than stopping and saying is is any business that's put it in crass business terms.

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Stuart Kellogg: during a recession we stop and say we got to do something different, we have to look at it differently, not that know churches are doing I don't think nearly enough churches are stopping to look and say what is it that we shouldn't be doing, for example, staff.

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Stuart Kellogg: Right yeah what is it that the staff should we do, should they should there be as much staff should there should they be doing different things to be included, was a.

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Stuart Kellogg: church in Texas, I talked to and man this year is the door shut everybody on staff added a digital a digital addition to their job description.

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Andy Miller III: Because yeah.

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Stuart Kellogg: That that was just necessary to connect with the small groups and that sort of thing and so it's this idea of are we just doing the same thing, or are we looking at how to.

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Stuart Kellogg: structure the Church in what it does, especially with connections, because I see that connection between the Church and the Members fraying and it's not just gonna automatically go back together.

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Andy Miller III: yeah so the the things that need to change, you indicated staff yeah do you mean like the staffing structure or what staff, do I mean you can probably both but i'm just curious, what is it that needs to change it, the way where we staff churches.

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Stuart Kellogg: I think it starts at the top, one of the things George barna these things, called the most quoted band in the church he's been doing research for for decades and.

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Stuart Kellogg: And I talked to him about it, he has an important part of the book and one of the things he says is you know what, how do we hire, how do we hire pastors right, how do they teach and preach.

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Stuart Kellogg: Share do even look at leadership, you know too often know and it's a tough skill set right so so part of it is how do we set up the leadership from the from the top, what is it that the staff is doing.

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Stuart Kellogg: Why are you doing it, I mean this is the perfect time I used to do this in business and just every once a year step back and say why are we doing what we're doing.

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Andy Miller III: Just as we've always.

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Stuart Kellogg: done it right, but so much has changed and the biggest part, and this is, this is one of my if you will pet peeves.

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Stuart Kellogg: When you look is is too much disconnection and not use of the Laity the talent and values I call it, I mean you've got.

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Stuart Kellogg: Unbelievable amount of talent and even the smallest churches and how you using that talent, I think it's a combination of I think.

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Stuart Kellogg: Too many of the staff for pastors are a little intimidated, perhaps or don't want to give up that control and the other hand, some in the in the pews saying you know hey come and entertain me, you know, this is my job there's gotta be.

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Stuart Kellogg: it's gotta be this connection, I believe, where you are using that talent in the pews to help with the mission, so what.

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Stuart Kellogg: i'll give an example when you asked about structure, a lot of it what's our mission when Christ saying to make disciples so everything I believe should go through the filter of a discussion is whatever we were doing at the Church is it helping make disciples.

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Stuart Kellogg: Right and if it isn't then we least discuss, then why are we doing it, and there may be a reason, but it will help focus the mind on why we're doing all these things.

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Andy Miller III: What what are some things that you see typically that happen, where we aren't making disciples like what are some things like that that typical churches have if there is such a thing as a typical church are doing that a that aren't producing disciples.

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Stuart Kellogg: I would say i'd start with the young and by young and I don't mean real young, I mean teenage high school let's let's look at that high school Ministry.

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Stuart Kellogg: And this idea of.

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Stuart Kellogg: How is that setup isn't an entertainment.

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Stuart Kellogg: Or are you teaching biblical worldview, are you teaching, something that will help them when they leave the Shell of this.

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Stuart Kellogg: nice little Shell and and they walk into the philosophy class at College as a freshman.

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Stuart Kellogg: With weather and they're running into the secular world and they were running into this university and so many people are going to challenge their faith do they have any basis have they been instructed do they know how to defend the faith.

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Stuart Kellogg: So I see that is probably the key, especially now with all the issues that are surrounding the culture, how do you even have that discussion about sexuality, for example.

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Can you even.

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Stuart Kellogg: Talk about it, can you defend the faith, so I think that that's a.

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Stuart Kellogg: key area is that high school ministry, I think, too often it's just been done, the way it's the way it's always done corey Miller, from Russia to Christie I don't know if you're aware Russia go Christie but.

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Stuart Kellogg: it's a ministry around the world and it's on campuses and and it's an evangelical Christian group and a lot of it does they'll either they'll sponsor.

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Stuart Kellogg: Debate, sometimes, but a lot of it is with Christian worldview and corey mentioned, you know, the idea of the skinny jeans and fog machines, you know if that's if that's all the high school kids are getting instead of this this rich.

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Stuart Kellogg: biblical basis for how to defend their faith they end up coming to campus and just not having that.

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Stuart Kellogg: background to be able to truly disciple because they haven't been disciple, so I think that's a that's a.

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Stuart Kellogg: One big key area for a lot of churches.

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Andy Miller III: So this is that moment for people to really like I can't I keep going back to like you know never waste, a crisis which is not necessarily I should.

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Andy Miller III: Should quote but the idea is like here you have this moment where everything is being question so therefore you take advantage of the opportunity to really look at is is the kind of.

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Andy Miller III: Christian moralistic babysitting that can happen, sometimes in youth groups and not saying all the time, but is that something that needs to be revamped like where, why is it that Kobe gives an opportunity for that.

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Andy Miller III: to switch.

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Stuart Kellogg: Anything that's a major disruption.

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Stuart Kellogg: Right anything a major disruption that makes you stop and see what's going on is is a natural way to say.

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Stuart Kellogg: whoa you know the door shut, I mean when does that have everything shut So what do we do when the doors open, so, in other words it's that it's that big catastrophe, if you will, that that focuses the mind, and I think that's why.

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Stuart Kellogg: That and make everybody thinking oh my gosh what's going on and and here's the flip of it Andy that that's the cool part if you will there's never been a greater need.

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Stuart Kellogg: Right, because even the most hardened it is may not admit it, but they're saying something's going on here.

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Stuart Kellogg: This is changing and so wow here here here's.

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Stuart Kellogg: An opportunity and and I love, one of the guys.

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Stuart Kellogg: I spoke to when we were talking about.

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Stuart Kellogg: The Church at this time bill Wilson and he's had a Center for healthy churches and he said there's never been a better time to be the Church.

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Stuart Kellogg: wow you didn't mean easiest he didn't but.

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Stuart Kellogg: You talk about the need.

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Stuart Kellogg: And you look at any issue.

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Stuart Kellogg: And one of the ones I love talking about the racial issue.

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Stuart Kellogg: And the whole issue of critical race theory which is absolutely contradictory to biblical justice and.

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Stuart Kellogg: And it's tough even have that discussion, but here's this issue in which what a wonderful this Christian faith has the answer.

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Stuart Kellogg: As the answer to the issue, so what an opportunity to talk about it and to be able to to say this is we, we have been reconciled and Christ right.

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Stuart Kellogg: So here's the answer, but now let's do it let's let's let's make it work as Christians, rather than going into some neo Marxist idea of putting everybody in a you know oppressor are oppressed we we have a much better answer, but how many people can can really explain that and share it.

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Andy Miller III: Right well that challenge, their ends up being so clear in that even just talking about something you can get you divide yourself.

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Andy Miller III: Even some people will be frustrated that you said what you just said, who might be listening to this podcast but, nevertheless, like you're saying me do you think that's necessary go ahead.

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Andy Miller III: For us to divide.

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Andy Miller III: To.

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Andy Miller III: say something that well, we will.

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Andy Miller III: i'll go ahead guys.

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Stuart Kellogg: Because because we, the Church, we have to speak truth to power, but we are the ones to stop them and speak into it and and i'm.

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Stuart Kellogg: surprised as i've spoken, I thought i'd get a little more pushback because us as an evangelical group and more conservative group.

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Stuart Kellogg: You know I feel strongly I talked about in the book, you know you, you get a church that becomes an appendage of a political party and the white evangelicals and and the gop that's not a good thing we're supposed.

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Stuart Kellogg: To speak truth to power and with something's wrong it doesn't you don't.

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Stuart Kellogg: Talk about Bill Clinton, you know you don't get him because of what he did sexually but then you give a pass to somebody who has an hour by their name that that's not biblical that doesn't make sense and the The other thing is that it.

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Stuart Kellogg: And I tried to to get past all the political to say look it's hurting our witness because, because the image of the evangelical church well you're just a bunch of you know crazy what ring wing nuts and.

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Stuart Kellogg: we're not going to listen to you, but here we have this field white with need to talk about the need for Christ, and if you're not able to witness because, because the brand is has been tarnished that's a big problem for the church and it has to.

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Stuart Kellogg: It has to change has to be willing to change and that's not easy, and I understand that, politically, but, but I think it's critical and I think it's what Christ did Christ speak truth to power, I think you did.

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Andy Miller III: Right right.

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Andy Miller III: I found that's been interesting as i've spoken up on some of these issues, myself, the challenge has been is that people might think that.

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Andy Miller III: i'm not for the elimination of racism may fall if you're serious about the racial concerns I have in our country, and you look you look the Mississippi for 25 years.

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Andy Miller III: And i've lived here for not even a year we're aware of the challenges in this state and all across the country.

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Andy Miller III: So you want to do something about it, and the most obvious answer that's out there comes from the perspective that.

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Andy Miller III: takes the worldview of critical theories, in general, and then creates a situation where you have people who live in a supremacist culture and every act on known or unknown implicit or explicit is the act of racism and there's an oppressed and the oppressor there's a.

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Andy Miller III: Separation that comes, and I think.

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Andy Miller III: It sounds like Okay, well, I want to do something, and this is what some people who are active and racial reconciliation are saying that we should do let's do it well, then it's interesting I found is that.

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Andy Miller III: i've just asked what is the intention like where do we want to be and what what is the action that will come and what i've seen is that that's actually lead people to separate more to distinguish ourselves more and more away from our.

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Andy Miller III: ideal actually make our racial category categories more strong and more part of what we're doing so like that's really.

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Andy Miller III: And even letting some groups is separate people out for churches and church groups to separate people out based upon the race and I feel like that's.

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Andy Miller III: retro grade like this is moving the BAT and so instead of taking a conversation to another level, we end up going backwards, you see that to Stewart.

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Stuart Kellogg: Absolutely and that's the and that comes with the hard part but i'll and too often the churches and look there's still largely white and black that's just don't care whether you're in Mississippi and New York.

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Stuart Kellogg: Right just the fact and and to few times and it takes effort you know i've thought, one of the things I talked about in the book.

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Stuart Kellogg: is just this idea and I, you know once there's a relationship between a black pastor and a white pastor and just just having 10 people for me to the Church.

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Stuart Kellogg: Churches just go to some neutral place just to sit and talk and listen I can't tell you, and again I worked in a in a business my company was a large mix of African American and whites and.

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Stuart Kellogg: And you hear stories and you see things and that you didn't and I don't think that happens enough, but just to sit and listen and to listen to the story of the African American and and what they had to say, to their kid before they go out.

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Andy Miller III: In the car right right.

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Stuart Kellogg: they're going to be driving through the white area, you can say well that's not so that it happens, I have seen it in Mississippi when I used to take an apple my wife would.

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Stuart Kellogg: Would shop at the mall and nothing happened to me, I remember watching this black man doing the same thing, where the security came and got him up because.

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Stuart Kellogg: You know so.

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Stuart Kellogg: Just to hear those stories and that's the starting and I wish more churches would do that and there's been a lot of efforts that's The good thing about Mississippi me you can't deny the back.

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Stuart Kellogg: Right right.

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Stuart Kellogg: yeah New York, where I grew up they pretend it's not a problem.

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Stuart Kellogg: right when it says here.

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Stuart Kellogg: yeah there's there's no interaction in Mississippi as lot of interaction, there has to be interaction so at least there's a little more talking about it but.

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Andy Miller III: I that's been my experience to and living in the south in general.

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Andy Miller III: In the south in general i've been in place where I where I grew up in Chicago and Detroit.

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Andy Miller III: I think the same problems exist, but in the south, people are forced to be together more and.

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Andy Miller III: they're in a situation, you have to work out these challenges Okay, I want to move on to the front of the racism discussion that that's obviously something that we're all having to think about.

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Andy Miller III: Time and time again and change and make sure we're being servants and Christ-like as we serve our communities, I imagine that you have the think a lot about with the postcode church with the challenge of worship like how worship happens.

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Andy Miller III: How it's happened during the pandemic, I mean, I know there are some churches that are not even they're still not back from COPA de in some are doing some have made huge changes like.

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Andy Miller III: were immediately they started figuring out a way to have a little better TV production online presence on Facebook social media YouTube etc.

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Andy Miller III: But some have does that nope back to normal I, what are you seeing it's happening with how Sunday after Sunday morning worship experiences are happening.

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Stuart Kellogg: I think more or trying to go back to the normal or and a lot we're already doing some some kind of hybrid and I guess that's the upside of this happening, when it did you get an iPhone and a Facebook page in a tripod and you can stream abroad, you know you can stream.

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Stuart Kellogg: A service and just think 3040 years ago that that wouldn't have been possible, so the barrier to entry is so low.

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Stuart Kellogg: And I think it's important that that continue because there's a group of folks who are simply not going to be comfortable coming back, especially as these waves come in.

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Stuart Kellogg: So I think there'll be a bit of that hybrid, but I think the most effective are going to be the ones that have discovered.

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Stuart Kellogg: How can we use this social media look it's out there, you can you can put it back in the box and I think there's a lot more negative and positive to to our culture and society, but that doesn't matter.

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Stuart Kellogg: But how can we use it to stay connected, how can we use it to make a difference in making disciples, how can we use it to Marshall together even.

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Stuart Kellogg: it's not perfect, but even when we can't meet, and I think the most effective ones have creatively done that.

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Stuart Kellogg: But also just the old fashioned way I it was interesting as I talked to different folks around.

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Stuart Kellogg: Those that, even though there was a plenty of staff they're getting paid, you know, no one was coming in, they never heard from anybody at the Church, you know, but others.

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Stuart Kellogg: made it a mission and that to connect with people just a phone call just something to connect as the body together.

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Stuart Kellogg: And I think that this is all gone to reinforce the importance of the body being together and, if not in one place worshiping.

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Stuart Kellogg: Even if that gets disconnected can we be together at least connecting by talking and being there and sharing that's that's better than nothing, but too many didn't do that and I and that's why you know we're looking at the.

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Stuart Kellogg: Even the churches coming back before this latest wave came the delta wave.

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Stuart Kellogg: 30 to 50% is the average as far as attendance, you know.

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Stuart Kellogg: yeah coming back.

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Stuart Kellogg: And so, and you know, once you get out of that habit and again if you haven't been connected if you haven't been talking to folks if you haven't been.

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Stuart Kellogg: Then you'll may go somewhere else, or you may sit and watch services online or may just drop out all together and i'm afraid that is happening far too often because it's too easy to drop out now.

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Andy Miller III: yeah two things you said, I want to pick up on the first is this is a you said, all you needs a tripod and iPhone and you're ready to go you're a I don't know if we need anything else, I mean certainly things can be a have a higher quality.

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Andy Miller III: When when we we went immediately the first Sunday of the shutdown we just did that that's all we had we.

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Andy Miller III: And that was actually during the lockdown was when I had the highest attendance.

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Andy Miller III: Online you know we end up having over 150 on with us live in that time well those numbers went down as people started to come back, but we still maintain a steady audience probably 40 to 50.

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Andy Miller III: That were always on line with us, and sometimes that would be one of those views viewers would be a room full of people a family, that would be there, but here's what's interesting, I think, maybe you can expose the challenge of this I had several people say to me.

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Andy Miller III: Okay yeah I can do that I just need a camera tripod and let's an iPhone and camera I sorry I keep on getting on an iPhone, which is a camera and iPhone and a tripod and we're ready to go well why aren't people going and I had one person honestly say to me I don't like what i'm showing.

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Andy Miller III: You know I don't like I don't want the pressure of having to be live I don't think the quality is that great so they just didn't do it.

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Andy Miller III: And I that's churches in my denomination i'm not sure what the purpose is but I don't know if 10% are streaming now in.

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Andy Miller III: Amongst Salvation Army churches, maybe there are, may I might be wrong with that, but from what I see I don't see that many so what what what what's behind that what's underneath that Stewart.

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Stuart Kellogg: Well, it was it was a 95% we're doing something online pretty amazing because they could at least.

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Stuart Kellogg: At least do something at the forefront i've not seen the data of how many, but I would you know, based on that I would think a lot of folks are at least.

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Stuart Kellogg: At least doing that some did the pre production, these are normally a bigger one where they taped it ahead of time and produced it so look looked a little nicer because they have the equipment and that sort of thing.

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Stuart Kellogg: But, but clearly, and I don't think that'll change, I think, even if it's the most basic maybe one or two cameras and again to buy a camera and not just a phone and it's not that difficult to get in.

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Stuart Kellogg: To do the business of streaming I think that's going to continue, and I think the smart churches and we saw during did creative things with kids did creative things with seniors to connect and to use.

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Stuart Kellogg: different ways to connect either with particular classes, or with particular one one church.

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Stuart Kellogg: I spoke to the associate pastor on the podcast they just decided to hook up on on Wednesday night the pastor and sit and just answer questions you know.

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Stuart Kellogg: And do that from the basement of his house.

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Stuart Kellogg: So you can just do even new kind of crazy things let's let's let's try some things and that's the whole bit if it doesn't work no big deal you don't try something else so.

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Stuart Kellogg: I think that will continue, and I think that's important but it's too easy to get again out of the habit of actually connecting either physically or at least connecting on on the phone with people so so that there is that Community because i'm afraid that's what we're losing.

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Andy Miller III: yeah you know, during the shutdown I realized, we had a congregation about 150 to 200 people.

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Andy Miller III: Where we were serving that there's just so many people that all of a sudden, we had lost contact with them and then we are coming up to that first Easter.

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Andy Miller III: Where we weren't gonna be back like house is going to work and what we did was we were able to set up a time to.

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Andy Miller III: Go by regions of our city, we lived in a large metropolitan area where we would say okay we're going to be in the northeast section that's all of these people you 20 people.

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Andy Miller III: And we said we're just going to come through and we're going to do porch visits or front yard visits and we'll keep our distance we won't we won't shake hands, we will hug.

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Andy Miller III: We had a little band that came along it's like we went caroling Easter caroling, but what we found is, we could hit probably.

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Andy Miller III: 20 people in that in an afternoon and so people be ready for us, we come as weak as we come as we could now what what I realized in doing that was like.

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Andy Miller III: whoa, this is a great idea, the pastor often has like the obligation and, like the burden of visiting people it just can seem overwhelming, because how can you get to everybody, and then you end up just going to the people who are sick.

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Andy Miller III: But people appreciate it so much and you get to know people so much better by seeing them where they live, and so what I realized is no matter what.

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Andy Miller III: If I was to serve again as a pastor when I first come i'm just going to do the coven or not do these front yard carolyn visits, you know go go through five minutes here move on to the next one.

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Andy Miller III: It worked out pretty well, but I think that that's this idea of like.

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Andy Miller III: Okay there's a need there's something that needs to happen there needs to be a connection, and I think that that's what you're trying to drive us back to it's like the Church has a function of making disciples now how do we, in light of this opportunity.

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Andy Miller III: get some new forms, so that mission can function is that the kind of big idea you're going forward.

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Stuart Kellogg: Absolutely, and it may be, what you said, made me think of Warren life them who's who's a retired district superintendent in Georgia and he passed it very large church, you know he started Venezuela now, which is a.

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Stuart Kellogg: Has a seminary in Venezuela, which is can imagine a difficult place to be, but he one of the things he talked to me about.

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Stuart Kellogg: Obviously that's shut down, but they went to the home and so all of a sudden, they were in homes, but the other thing that did their pastors on on the rooftops.

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Stuart Kellogg: In Venezuela is everyone was sat down and the pastors were preaching for the rooftops and another pastor in America saw that and said we should be doing yeah So it goes right to it.

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Stuart Kellogg: We shouldn't have to have a a coven pandemic for for that to happen to go to the home, so I think that's exactly what you're talking about.

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Andy Miller III: What are some other innovations that you've seen that UK the UK to advise other church leaders to implement.

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Stuart Kellogg: i'll give you an example of and I shared this example from my own time in Georgia, and this goes to the idea of saying what talent, is there, I think, too few times, does the church have an inventory of the talent there, do you know what.

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Stuart Kellogg: Your Members do.

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Stuart Kellogg: And maybe not even professionally it's just that you know they they did something else, and then change career, so it just may be an interest.

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Stuart Kellogg: And I use an example, this fall I got to know who had retired to Georgia, where we were and he was the retired head of human resources worldwide for Union Carbide pretty darn big job.

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Stuart Kellogg: And then he had gone after retirement and.

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Stuart Kellogg: different ministries to help organization and management and the Turks were in was having some personnel issues and I got to know the pastor and I said.

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Stuart Kellogg: Do you know here and downstairs our class I told him what his background is I said I think he's got a lot of help that he could get oh really in the information never talked to beer, you know so.

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Stuart Kellogg: And again, I think it's a sense of I don't want to give up control or whatever so.

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Stuart Kellogg: But the the smart ones are looking for where's the the the talent there and i'll use it an example from this little church grace Chapel hundred and 80 people.

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Stuart Kellogg: In South Carolina rusty Raven is the pastor and everything shut down and then they're starting to think about coming back at well turns out one of his parishioners was a retired engineer.

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Stuart Kellogg: who had worked at public TV and he said, you know I can get some equipment.

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Stuart Kellogg: He got this equipment and put together a radio station now, it was one mile diameter, you know, but he got the equipment didn't cost them anything put it together so that a couple of folks live nearby but the other older folks would come into.

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Stuart Kellogg: They weren't comfortable coming into the Church.

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Stuart Kellogg: But they sit in their car and listen to the pastor you know.

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Stuart Kellogg: wow but this pastors that he found out as the guy go do it, you know, and so I think that's the just letting go do it again, will it help make disciples yes, I think that that's an example of making disciples So those are.

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Stuart Kellogg: A couple of, I guess, if you will, a negative and it goes just to that idea of what's the talent and I don't know.

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Stuart Kellogg: I can't, I think, maybe one church and i've we've moved all over bath and i've we're in our 16th House so we've moved a lot part of my business, a lot of churches.

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Stuart Kellogg: I think, maybe there was one who ever did a you know what do you do what's your background, you know what do you have that you know, a talent inventory and I just think that's that's one big takeaway that I think could really make a difference to the church and and.

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Stuart Kellogg: To the great Commission.

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Andy Miller III: yeah absolutely what are some other things in your book that you highlight that you'd like to share here that I mean we talked about staffing.

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Andy Miller III: We talked about dealing with some of the.

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Andy Miller III: Really ideological challenges that the churches have like taking those head on, you also talk, then, about the nature of worship and that keep everything in the folks in discipleship but is there anything else.

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Andy Miller III: I guess, we could just you could just say go read the book which will will offer here to people make sure you.

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Stuart Kellogg: Cherry I.

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Stuart Kellogg: The the big one, and I just.

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Stuart Kellogg: I just touched a little it's available on Amazon I.

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Stuart Kellogg: Have is is the Christian worldview, again I mentioned, I got to study under chuck colson, which is an unbelievable.

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Stuart Kellogg: Experience and just my eyes open to the idea of a worldview, we all have a worldview it's the lens through which we look at the world and make sense of things Christianity is a worldview.

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Stuart Kellogg: And it just is such an important part to answer these tough questions whether it's sexuality or racial issues is is having that Christian worldview.

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Stuart Kellogg: That lens and and fart to few Christians have a worldview, that is, a Christian worldview.

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Stuart Kellogg: we've we've gotten you know far too you look at some of the data and i've got some in there, the idea of the.

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Stuart Kellogg: percentage of Christians who believe you earn your way into heaven, I mean, these are evangelical Christians, about a half a say how does that even happen, how can, how can something is as basic as that so this idea of thinking.

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Stuart Kellogg: As Christians and thinking biblically but also thinking through that lens of Christian worldview for everyone, but especially for the young, because of what they're coming up, I that's that's got to be a focus and it isn't and it's.

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Stuart Kellogg: done kind of crazy because I just think it's so important people understand how to make sense of the world through the Christian perspective through that lens of their faith that was a that's.

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Stuart Kellogg: A big takeaway that's missing and boy, you talk about a.

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Stuart Kellogg: time when it's important it's now to know what you believe is how.

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Andy Miller III: yeah I mean, as we leave.

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Andy Miller III: From a become a post coven church like we have to be so this isn't just necessary your book and ideas aren't necessarily just related to the pandemic but it's more or less what is the church supposed to be, I mean this is, this is a book about the mission of the Church is that right.

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Andy Miller III: So how do we add.

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Stuart Kellogg: more light up.

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Stuart Kellogg: Right and in light of what we've gone through and, basically, how can we use it, if you will again you don't as you as you put I think it's wrong manual who use that term we don't want to you know you don't want to was a disaster to go on us, whatever that thing is.

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Stuart Kellogg: How to use it so yes it's it's how the church and it's it's going back to what we are to be because we've lost our way and the Church has lost it again its influence in the culture and we've seen that we're now up to.

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Stuart Kellogg: it's it's now what was one of five now it's one out of four nuns no ne s are not connected church membership is now below 50% in a generation it's gone from three and four.

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Stuart Kellogg: to less than half I mean it is and again the trends are already going, and this is really pushed it So what are we supposed to be doing, and then you look at it and the burnout rate some of the data on pastors and.

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Stuart Kellogg: yeah well you talk about a tough job, and it is.

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Stuart Kellogg: Which is why they even need more more help, but that idea of the potential burnout and in again what.

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Stuart Kellogg: What does the body and it's all of us and it's not this staff and people, you know, and I think that's something that will be a big big plus to the.

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Stuart Kellogg: To those churches, as I say that thrive will be that they'll be using that talent and it'll it'll help the pastors and the staff and it'll help make it.

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Stuart Kellogg: The idea of making disciples and getting outside of the walls.

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Andy Miller III: yeah yeah I want you to use your imagination me for a second to there's like two options like you mentioned there's a turtle churches hunker down there's like an option to not respond just to go back to you, I want you to.

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Andy Miller III: describe the future of that church and then I want you to describe like a church that takes the criticism and the challenge.

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Andy Miller III: That you're presenting as an opportunity for growth and, like what that church could be so, could you contrast the vision of.

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Andy Miller III: kind of playing the movie out, so to speak, of what the future could be for the like, if you are the turtle church, this is what's going to happen and if you're the church that responds this challenge, this is who you can be, and this is the impact, you could make.

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Stuart Kellogg: yeah and I think the turtle churches in a generation.

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Stuart Kellogg: will be pretty much dead because literally it's just the LIFE tables right as they are more white headed anyway and.

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Stuart Kellogg: they're not going to be growing, and I think they're going to be really those relics and it's almost that that Europe.

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Stuart Kellogg: European model in the sense that even the old established churches are there, but these these giant facade facilities with you know 40 or 50 people, so I think they will with her.

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Stuart Kellogg: there'll be merging and I think in part of this, too, is that a lot of those are the mainline denominations, which are is is you know and you've talked about on your podcasts are.

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Stuart Kellogg: As they embrace the culture and walk away from the biblical foundations that's just going to exacerbate it, but there are plenty of evangelicals that are in that.

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Andy Miller III: hunker down move it.

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Stuart Kellogg: To have that awakening I think the other will be.

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Stuart Kellogg: It doesn't matter whether you're the most innovative not that there won't be big churches, but the Church is going to be small.

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Stuart Kellogg: And I say that, just because we have this number of Members, you just look at the the membership is down and we're in a country not talking about American our own work in a country with very little population growth and the people are leaving, so the Church is going to be smaller.

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Stuart Kellogg: I think those churches that lean into it, because they will be speaking truth to power and and taking stands are going to come under a much more.

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Stuart Kellogg: difficult times challenges as well individuals it's going to be tougher, for example, you know, in the business world and evangelical Christian, who have to stand up for this, the idea of the biblical idea of marriage even to have the discussion that's not even allowed.

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Stuart Kellogg: You know that's going to cost jobs and stuff so the church itself, I think, is going to be smaller, I think the the ones, though, that again lean in our creative use the talent, even though they may be a bit smaller numerically are going to have.

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Stuart Kellogg: an exponential impact in the Community, because the needs are so much greater I mean just look around us and what those needs are, and I think they will be.

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Stuart Kellogg: Those islands that will that will be making a difference, and that will stand out that way and that will be the model, if you will, for what Christ, called the church to be.

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Stuart Kellogg: Human I think overall will probably be small, and even the bigger churches are going to be smaller and, in the sense of decentralizing.

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Stuart Kellogg: Whether the hunter model or the small group model and having more flexibility to go serve that northeast part of the.

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Stuart Kellogg: You know the town yeah.

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Stuart Kellogg: yeah rather than the mother church everything happening there.

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Stuart Kellogg: right for sure.

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Stuart Kellogg: The vision, and I think that's exciting.

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Andy Miller III: Absolutely, well, I have one more question for you, I want to remind people if you're tuning into this podcast is the more to the story podcast and if you are able to join my email list.

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Andy Miller III: where you can go to Andy Miller third this Andy Miller iii.com.

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Andy Miller III: I have something available free resource for you, if you are a person who is serving in ministry in any way as a leadership.

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Andy Miller III: or as a preacher we've put together a tool for preparing for sermons and for teaching from scripture So the idea is it walks you through an inductive Bible study method.

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Andy Miller III: And with tools to kind of pull out things that would be significant to help you prepare and engaging message, so you can get a free copy of that resources, a four page PDF.

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Andy Miller III: If you sign up for my email list at Andy Miller, the third.com i'd love to have you do, and if he could take a minute to subscribe to this on YouTube or subscribe on.

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Andy Miller III: hit like on YouTube as well, but subscribe on podcast channels to that would be helpful to us and also, I recommend you go find the post coven church where there's a lot of great interviews with Stuart if you'd like what you've.

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Andy Miller III: heard here, he has a way of getting to some some amazing guests as you've already heard here, so I just recommend that you check that out with him okay so here's my last question.

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Andy Miller III: Since this is the more to the story podcast the way I think about that is like it's like there's a theological sense to it to that.

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Andy Miller III: we're not just about kind of getting getting our sins forgiven and being done but there's the process of sanctification as well or god's spirit can make us.

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Andy Miller III: More and more like Jesus so there's more to the story of salvation but also, I like to think we get a little deeper with people and find out more of their story so sure is there, more to the story of you is there something about you that you don't often get to tell.

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Stuart Kellogg: yeah and and i've found that since i'm going out announced speaking about the book I do get to tell a little more, the story, I find it, and this is what's so beautiful about the story.

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Stuart Kellogg: You know, I was an adult I, as I mentioned grew up in New York went to you know mainline Presbyterian church and you know was part of the Youth group, as I look back now I call myself a functional unitarian.

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Stuart Kellogg: wow you know talked about Jesus at Christmas and Easter never the Holy Spirit oh my gosh you know so so this idea, so I go from New York to mobile Alabama.

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Stuart Kellogg: In the heart of the Bible belt and people talking about having a personal relationship with Christ we talking about I mean that's how i've never really heard it as I look back now I remember one Spring Day in Syracuse it was one of the few nights today's we had that spring.

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Stuart Kellogg: Somebody from campus crusade for Christ sitting next to me and and I didn't know what he was talking about and I then realized later as I moved to appeal this idea of personal relationship with Christ, I gave my life to Christ like I can point to that that Monday morning in my apartment.

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Stuart Kellogg: But then when I was a member of a mainline Presbyterian church, I remember telling the pastor and and he said that's Nice, I mean.

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Stuart Kellogg: You know, and so there was nothing around and so everything was just that personal relationship going to heaven and it really wasn't until.

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Stuart Kellogg: Fast forward a couple decades and in Jackson i'm getting around a group of evangelicals and then getting.

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Stuart Kellogg: Through Dr matt freedom and who I knew professionally and he got me to start classes at Wesley this idea of.

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Stuart Kellogg: No, no, this is, this is a bigger it's not just sitting around waiting for heaven to go, you know we're called to be transformed and to continually be transformed and live that life.

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Stuart Kellogg: differently here constantly and so that that just opened my eyes and the challenge and I still.

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Stuart Kellogg: To this day, I have that issue of okay how am I doing my walk.

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Andy Miller III: yeah yeah.

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Stuart Kellogg: What am I called to do I share with you, I don't have a problem, sharing with struggles.

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Stuart Kellogg: I talk openly when I was in Jackson with a depression, I saw professional Christian counselor I like to talk about that, because I think too few people talk about mental health.

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Andy Miller III: Right.

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Stuart Kellogg: right but it took it took a lot out though, and I said they'll have have some some issues with that, but all along this path and people would look on the outside oh pretty successful professionally you know, is this idea of questions and.

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Stuart Kellogg: In that that darker time where boy if there weren't Christ in that walk How would I have grown.

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Andy Miller III: yeah so.

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Stuart Kellogg: wow that's a little different I don't get talked about them.

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Andy Miller III: yeah i'm glad you did just now, thanks so much for your time Stewart it's been a blessing to have you here and again check it out on Amazon post covered church, or just Google it you'll find.

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Andy Miller III: A variety of resources available for your church and really just to think about where god's taking you in the Church and the future thanks Stuart.

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Stuart Kellogg: Andy Thank you very much for having me I really enjoyed the talking about yeah talking about the book, but more importantly, talking about the issues that are facing the church and again what a wonderful time to be the Church.

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amen.