The UMC and the Global Methodist: Schism or Death?

Is the break between the United Methodist Church and the Global Methodist Church simply a matter of disagreement? Or does human sexuality rise to the level of Christian dogma? Dr. Chris Bounds and I talk through this ecclesiological question on today’s thought-provoking podcast.

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Transcript:

Welcome to the more. To a story. Podcast I am so glad that you all have come along. For this incredibly important episode is what's happened in various denominations, but particularly with the emergence of the Global Methodist Church, has emerged from the United Methodist Church? And the question is, has the United Methodist Church died, or

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Andy Miller III: has there been a schism in the Church? And so we are going to address that topic here, and this comes down to necessary essentials to the Christian faith. Is sexuality, human sexuality just something that we can agree to disagree on that faithful Christians supposedly just disagree. So we're going to hit all those topics today with my guest, who I'll introduce in just a minute.

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Andy Miller III: But this podcast is brought to you by Wesley Biblical Seminary, where we are developing trusted leaders for faithful churches. We do that through a host of programs, bachelor's master's doctoral degrees lay initiatives like the Wesley Institute, which just this coming in 2025. It's hard to believe. I'm saying the 2025 is a reality. It's coming out coming soon. We'll be having a 6 week Wesley Institute special

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Andy Miller III: course. It's the 1st time we've done this on the doctrine of holiness as the global Methodist church and others are reviving this idea of proclaiming Scriptural holiness across the land. There'll be a 6 week special course that is available at Wbs. Taught by Christopher, we'd love for you to check that out. In addition to all of our other things are happening here at Wbs. You can find out more about us at Wbsedu.

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Andy Miller III: and I'd love for people to sign up for my email list at andymillertheird.com. I'll send you a free tool called 5 steps to deeper teaching and preaching which uses the inductive Bible study method as a way to think creatively about preaching. Also, at my website, you can find other resources for Sunday school classes and small groups, we'd love for you to check that out.

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Andy Miller III: Well, now, I am glad to welcome to the podcast my friend Dr. Chris bounds, who is he. Many people in my audience are very connected to Chris, because we we

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Andy Miller III: we run in similar circles, Chris. So I'm so glad to have you on the podcast.

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Christopher Bounds: It's great to be here, and to have this opportunity to have this conversation with you, Andy.

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Christopher Bounds: So I should say President Miller.

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Andy Miller III: Oh, sorry, Dr. Bounds, please excuse me. No, this is great. Chris and I have preached at camp meetings together. He served at Asbury University. He's now Professor Asbury Theological Seminary. He has served at Indiana, Wesleyan University, Wesley Seminary at Indiana, Wesleyan. He's been an adjunct professor here at Wesley Biblical seminary. I could keep going down the road. He's been the Board of

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Andy Miller III: good News. He's the chair of the Francis Asbury Society. I had the privilege for 6 years to serve on that board with him, so I feel like I know Chris pretty well, and he is somebody who brings a lot a great amount of clarity to historic Christianity to me. And he's been blessing me. I think you're going to find that on this podcast but Chris, before you get going too long. Tell us what's happening in your life these days. I mean, you've had a couple of moves here. So now you're Asbury Seminary. How's that going.

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Christopher Bounds: Yeah, it's it's going really. Well, I'm in my second year at Asbury Theological Seminary, and it's been a smooth transition here. I feel really privileged to have the opportunity to teach in the school of theology and spiritual formation here. Great colleagues.

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Christopher Bounds: I've got a a great dean that I work with, and and very thankful to to be working here, and glad to be teaching full time again, you know, for a number of years I was on the administrative side of of things, and and I appreciated that opportunity, but but glad at this stage in my life to have an opportunity to be teaching full time again.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, absolutely. I know there are many benefits to that, and you've been in and out of the so-called Holy City of Wilmore through the year, so glad that you're back there again.

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Christopher Bounds: Many times in and out. I don't know that I ever left after being a student here in the 19 eighties that I've ever really left.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah. Well, Chris, one of the things is interesting and brings our conversation up today. It it goes back a little bit to a conversation. We had a year and a half ago, where we hosted a conference here.

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Andy Miller III: Talking about whether or not the human sexuality issues around human sexuality rise to level

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Andy Miller III: of Christian dogma, and you presented a paper that took some of the ideas that come from famous theologians like Wolfhart, Palmberg, and Thomas Odin some some statements they made that were fairly dramatic. And I'm curious. Some people have, suggested, Chris, that and this is a big way, a quick way. We're going to dive deep into this really quickly.

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Andy Miller III: that well, with human sexuality and the split from the United Methodist Church. This is an area where Christians just disagree. Maybe the world God wants a United Methodist Church that's liberal, and he wants a Conservative group. But you think there's something more dramatic that this isn't a matter of schism, but it could be even deeper and more significant than that. And so like, talk. Talk to me about what you think is happening here theologically.

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Christopher Bounds: Yeah. Yeah. Well, again, you mentioned Wolfhart Ponnenberg, and you mentioned Thomas Odin in the 19 nineties, when the issue of of homosexuality was sort of coming to the fore in greater ways. Within mainline denominations.

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Christopher Bounds: Wolfhart Ponenberg made a really startling statement, and he said that in regard to homosexual activity, and making a distinction between homosexuality and homosexual practice. But he said that the Church that endorses, you know, homosexual activity and blesses, you know, a homosexual union. As marriage ceases to be a part of the one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

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Christopher Bounds: and so it ceases being the the Church.

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Christopher Bounds: And Tom Oden said the same thing in the early 2 thousands when the United Church of Canada made the decision to legalize, you know, or to to condone and officiate over gay marriage, and allow clergy to engage in what they would consider to be faithful, monogamous, homosexual relationships.

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Christopher Bounds: Tom Oden said that again a church that moves in this direction ceases to be a part of the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that is there. And so and again, let me

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Christopher Bounds: just take seriously.

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Andy Miller III: Right, yeah.

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Christopher Bounds: Wolfhart Ponenberg statement and and Tom Oden's statement in in this regard, and then bring in these categories that we were using at this Conference, dogma, doctrine, and and opinion.

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Christopher Bounds: using these categories that actually were 1st articulated by Roger Olson in a book reformed and always reforming. And and so we're using the word dogma, and I'm using the word dogma here in the way that

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Christopher Bounds: that Olson defines it in in in that in that book

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Christopher Bounds: maybe another way of of being able. And the reason why I say, when we talk about dogma and Olson uses the word dogma is essential teaching.

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Andy Miller III: Right, right.

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Christopher Bounds: And so I want to be clear. I am not saying that sexual ethics are on the same level as the the Deity of you know Jesus Christ. It's not on the same level as you know the doctrine of the Trinity.

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Christopher Bounds: but it is dogma in the sense that it is essential. This is the argument that in the end Ponenberg and Odin are making. I don't know that they would say it's equivalent to the Trinity. It's not equivalent to the full deity and the full humanity of Jesus Christ. But it is

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Christopher Bounds: it. It rises to the level of being a sensual teaching, so that the rejection of historic Christian understanding of sex and sexuality.

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Christopher Bounds: It. It then calls into question because it is essential teaching.

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Christopher Bounds: Whether or not the Church is truly a part of the one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. So, anyway, dog.

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Andy Miller III: Let's get into that real quick with a doctor, dogma, doctrine and beliefs. And I've used that, too, in my own team.

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Christopher Bounds: Yes.

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Andy Miller III: Talk to me about what the distinction is between those 3 areas. And then we'll get into the ecclesiological or.

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Christopher Bounds: Yeah. Yeah. And dogma are the essentials. They're they're non-negotiables to to the Christian faith. And again, we normally associate with that, you know, stuff like the doctrine of the Trinity, full Deity, full humanity of Christ, the atoning work, bodily resurrection. Those are the same things.

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Christopher Bounds: but from a historic Christian perspective. It hasn't just been belief, but but also certain practices as well have been a part of the essentials of of Christianity. And that's something else we can. We can discuss.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah, sure.

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Christopher Bounds: But that dogma, the essentials, non-negotiables, sort of the stuff that's written in blood, that we would not compromise on, that we would lay down our lives for, and then doctrine, as

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Christopher Bounds: as defined by Roger Olson, are things that are really important. But there can be a latitude of of different perspectives in regard to it.

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Christopher Bounds: So this would be, for example, you know the doctrine of predestination, the doctrine of eternal security. Even the issue of women in ministry there can be a latitude of of understanding and differences among Christians.

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Christopher Bounds: But these these doctrines are important. They have ramifications in in the life of the church, but but there can be a latitude of understanding differences in in among churches in regard to them. So you have the dogma, and then opinion are really inconsequential, you know, sort of issues. You know how you might take communion, how you might baptize

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Christopher Bounds: someone things like that. Maybe in regard to certain practices like, whether you believe in dancing or or not.

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Andy Miller III: I'm sure.

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Christopher Bounds: As a denomination, you participate in alcohol. Your members are allowed to drink alcohol or not. So, anyway, those are the sort of distinctions that we're talking about here. But again, the argument we're making is that sexual ethics rises to the, to the level of dogma essentials, non-negotiables in regard to Christianity.

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Christopher Bounds: So you know, keeping that in mind, you know what Odin and what Ponenberg said, and then this distinction of dogma, doctrine, and opinion, and then also related to this. For me in this larger discussion

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Christopher Bounds: is the issue of schism, and whether or not this is is schism that is taking place, and and I

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Christopher Bounds: I think

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Christopher Bounds: that

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Christopher Bounds: to say that what has happened between the global Methodist Church and what has happened with the United Methodist Church to call it schism

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Christopher Bounds: is, is at least from a historic Christian perspective, from the perspective of historic Christian orthodoxy is extremely problematic.

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Andy Miller III: Hello!

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Christopher Bounds: And I problematic. And again thinking and going back to someone like Augustine, who.

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Andy Miller III: Yes.

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Christopher Bounds: Who talked about grave sins in the history of Christianity, and he talks about the distinction between heresy and schism, and he recognizes both of them as grave sins, grave sins. And the reason the problem with heresy from Augustine's perspective is that God has revealed Himself to us.

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Christopher Bounds: and we can know

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Christopher Bounds: things about God now. Obviously we cannot comprehend God, but we can apprehend God. There's been God's self-disclosure, and that is taken to us, and that supreme self-disclosure, of course, is in is in Jesus Christ.

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Christopher Bounds: but but ultimately what heresy is is that it is a violation of the 1st and the greatest commandment. It is the refusal to love God, for who God is.

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Andy Miller III: Hmm.

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Christopher Bounds: It is the refusal to love God, who is.

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Andy Miller III: That's a really helpful distinction. What a heresy is.

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Christopher Bounds: Yeah, what here is.

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Andy Miller III: Loving God for who he is, because he has revealed Himself clearly.

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Christopher Bounds: That's right, and we've rejected that we refuse to acknowledge that we've we refuse to love God for who he is.

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Andy Miller III: Yes.

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Christopher Bounds: And and for what? For what God is.

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Christopher Bounds: But then Augustine goes on, and he says, the problem with schism

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Christopher Bounds: is that it is a violation of the second greatest command.

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Christopher Bounds: which is to love our neighbor as ourself. And so, you know, heresy is, is a refusal to love God, and schism is a refusal to love neighbor.

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Christopher Bounds: and both of those are grave sins. So the issue in regard to the global Methodist Church and the United Methodist church. If we're going to call this schism, then let me say this from historic Christian perspective, we have committed major sin. We have committed major sin. That's what's taking place in the schism.

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Christopher Bounds: and people have.

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Andy Miller III: Said that right.

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Christopher Bounds: What does that.

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Andy Miller III: People have said this, that that's what's happened. Some who would be orthodox have orthodox views on human sexuality have said, I've heard it. What you are doing is breaking the body of Christ.

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Andy Miller III: That's that's their. That's what they've suggested is that this is a. This is the sin of schism, of what's happening. But you say this isn't the case. It's something worse.

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Christopher Bounds: That's right.

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Andy Miller III: The way.

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Christopher Bounds: No, no, no, that that's exactly right. What I've said is, and I believe that actually Ponenberg and Odin are right, that a if, if, in fact, sexual ethics.

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Christopher Bounds: our our dogma in the sense of the way that we've been using it here again, using Roger Olson's categories here.

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Andy Miller III: Yes.

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Christopher Bounds: Is essential teaching essential beliefs. And again, I'm not wanting to say that sexual ethics is at the same level as the doctrine of the Trinity at the same level as the 2 natures, and the one person you know, the eternal Son of God, the Incarnation, the bodily resurrection.

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Christopher Bounds: But but it. It's not to use the language. It certainly is not. Doctrine. It's it's it's it's not negotiable it is. We cannot have a latitude of understanding in in regard to that. But if it is, in fact, dogma

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Christopher Bounds: which is what Odin and Ponenberg were pointing us towards. Then what's happened between the global Methodist Church and the United Methodist Church is not schism, and it certainly isn't this sort of amicable separation

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Christopher Bounds: which was posed by Bill Hinson. Yeah, a number of years ago.

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Christopher Bounds: But what it is is the recognition that there's a death that has taken place, or at least close to a death, you know, and please hear me. I'm not saying at this moment the United Methodist Church has has ceased to be the Church, but if you continue to go in the direction that the United Methodist Church is going. In regard to a complete dismissal

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Christopher Bounds: of historic Christian teaching in regard to sex and sexuality.

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Christopher Bounds: then it will cease, or it has ceased to be a part as long as it has its. What? What took place at its last general.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure. Sure.

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Christopher Bounds: In in South Carolina, you know it has ceased to be a part of the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and therefore it's a death that has taken place, not not a schism that has taken place, but but it's a death. And so

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Christopher Bounds: what? The the Gmc. What has happened with the Gmc. Is not

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Christopher Bounds: it's not schism. It's not a major sin, because if it is schism, you cannot get around the fact that what the Gmc. Has done is major sin. But if, in fact, the issue of sex and sexuality is a dogma, an essential issue.

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Christopher Bounds: and to move and go down this route as Odin and Ponenberg, you know, at least warned us about. And again, it's not. It's it's not a schism.

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Andy Miller III: This is so.

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Christopher Bounds: It had to do. The global Methodist Church had to. It had no other choice than to do this, or it would be threatened by ceasing to be a part of the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Now again.

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Andy Miller III: Now that's.

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Christopher Bounds: Already.

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Andy Miller III: Is on the precipice of that happening. Like it's, it's moving in this direction as an institution, as a corporate body. That's what's happening. And so the global Methodist Church needed to come into existence as a larger connectional system for that to be expressed as a reality. But at the same time local churches needed to respond as well. And you know, of course, there's some churches that are not in a position

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Andy Miller III: illegally to make that response. So like you're not calling those specific churches out, and it's not even. And I appreciate you saying that, too, even about the United Methodist Church that you're you're suggesting is going in that direction. It doesn't seem likely that there could actually be a pull back, because there does seem to be at least like those who would be who see themselves as forever staying in the

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Andy Miller III: United Methodist Church, that it is an agree to disagree moment for them.

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Christopher Bounds: Yes, yes.

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Christopher Bounds: and and again, I I it's that's probably I mean part of the purpose for the conversation that we had a year and a half ago. Yeah. And a part of the reason why this conference that took place, and even, you know a paper that I gave it that that conference was

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Christopher Bounds: I was just. I'm listening to the conversation, and I I don't think people understand the gravity of what's taking place here again this idea of agreeing to think and let think you know in in regard to to this issue and that it's an amicable separation, or that it is.

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Christopher Bounds: you know, a schism that is take place. And again, I've heard much like you. Almost all the circles I travel in. They just call this as a schism.

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Christopher Bounds: But, as I said to you.

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Christopher Bounds: we've lost

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Christopher Bounds: the gravity of schism.

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Andy Miller III: Wow!

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Christopher Bounds: And how significant! And the reason why we've lost it is because much of the Evangelical Church and Conservative Protestantism we've lost

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Christopher Bounds: the the gravity of divorce and the graveness of divorce, and we've become comfortable with sort of divorces within our culture. And it's that same mentality I'm afraid, that is informing even the way that we talk about what's taking place with the formation of the global method. It's just a divorce. It's just a divorce.

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Christopher Bounds: It's something that's like.

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Christopher Bounds: And I'm thinking, if that's what it is. We are committing grave sin again. Schism, grave, grave, grave sin. There's got to be a greater reason and a greater purpose for the formation of the of the global Methodist. If and the only thing that could could substantiate what has happened with the global Methodist church is, if, in fact, sex and sexuality, sexual ethics

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Christopher Bounds: do rise to the level of essential teaching. But if this is a think and let think issue, then what we have is schism and what we've done in the global Methodist church is commit grievous sin.

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Andy Miller III: Wow should. Oh.

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Andy Miller III: I want you to think about this. I hope we'll address this in a second, but I don't want to get too far away from Odin in Ponenberg here, but like, I wonder like if past, if people who have this affiliated

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Andy Miller III: need to use, if pastors need to use that language. I want to come back to that question. But let me just just in case people think that you know. Chris summarized these comments by Odin Ponenberg. Let me just read these quotes, and this was in from your paper, Chris. So Ponenberg said this in 1996, in a Christianity Day article. And so this is exactly what he says. If a church were to let itself be

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Andy Miller III: pushed to the point where it ceased to treat homosexual activity as a departure from the Biblical norm, and recognize homosexual unions as a personal partnership of love equivalent to marriage.

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Andy Miller III: Such a church would stand no longer on Biblical ground, but against the unequivocal witness of Scripture. A church that took this step would cease to be the one holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. It's end of that quote. Then Odin said, as you indicated, this was in 2,004, with the United Church of Canada's decision that the United Church of Canada was at a precipice.

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Andy Miller III: and would cease being the church if it continued, if and if it continued in the same direction of radical departure from church consensus. So I just like I thought it might be helpful just to hear those words. Now, now some might say, Chris.

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Andy Miller III: Well, you know I know the denomination, saying that. But my local church isn't doing this. And so all that matters is what's happening in the local body. That's that's all. It's all that significant. And in our church we're going to uphold Christian orthodoxy regarding human sexuality. So

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Andy Miller III: and and this is just who we are. So it doesn't matter what happens at the denominational level. What do you think of that?

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Christopher Bounds: Well, I would say that well, I'm gonna put bluntly to you.

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Andy Miller III: Please, do.

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Christopher Bounds: Would. Probably I'd be a little more tactful with with churches that would say something like that. But I would say, that's incredibly naive

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Christopher Bounds: to think that you could be a part of a connectional system like the United Methodist Church.

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Christopher Bounds: and not be impacted or affected by it.

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Christopher Bounds: And and this is part of the problem that has happened since General Conference in the United Methodist Church in South Carolina. Yes, there has been this, you know. You know things that were said to the church, local churches that were said, you know. Wait till what takes place in in general conference, and

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Christopher Bounds: and, as a matter of fact, there were promises that were made even in Illinois, great Rivers Conference, and now, finding out that they cannot leave under something that had been worked out beforehand by their previous Bishop. Frank Beard. All of this to say is, is what right now the United Methodist Church is saying, we're going to be a

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Christopher Bounds: big tent. Denomination and local churches are going to be able to make decisions in regard, and pastors will not be able to violate their conscience, you know, in regard to that. But still, when you're trying to think about an appointed pastor in our connectional system, you cannot always determine

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Christopher Bounds: it's it's impossible to always find pastors who are theologically compatible with the.

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Andy Miller III: Congregation, right.

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Christopher Bounds: And then, not only that, you're part of connectional system in which you're giving apportionment, you're giving significant amount of money

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Christopher Bounds: that is now going to be supporting

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Christopher Bounds: institutions within the United Methodist Church that are driven by the agenda that is set out by general conferences set out by the by the discipline. So you're going to be giving money and support. All I'm saying is, it is a reciprocating relationship that that takes place. But make no mistake. The denomination

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Christopher Bounds: controls the property, it controls the money, and it is going to have the biggest impact because of the Episcopal form of church government. The larger church has the bigger, biggest impact upon the local church rather than the local church having a bigger impact and local United Methodist churches will not live and exist in isolation.

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Andy Miller III: Yes.

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Christopher Bounds: Like they might think of. And and again, part of it arises out of people not understanding the United Methodist epistem.

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Andy Miller III: That's right.

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Christopher Bounds: Of of church government and most United Methodist, and even local churches don't even know what being United Methodist is.

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Andy Miller III: Right? Right? Right? Yeah.

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Christopher Bounds: They sort of learn along along the way. But I have serious concerns. I do believe that in the United Methodist Church the think and let think

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Christopher Bounds: is going to gradually recede, and and then it's going to be the agenda of you know a pro, you know, fully affirming, you know, congregation and denominations, and that's exactly by and large what's happened in every other denomination that's gone in this this direction. It begins piecemeal, but then it becomes wholesale

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Christopher Bounds: in a matter of years. It may take a few years to get there, but there's no other denomination in which they've pulled back

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Christopher Bounds: from where.

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Andy Miller III: That's right.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.

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Christopher Bounds: Regard to the issues of of sex and sexuality, and they just have gone in wholesale, you know. In that in that direction. So.

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Andy Miller III: Oh!

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Christopher Bounds: That's what I would say, yeah.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, that's helpful. So like intrinsically to be Methodist is to be connectional, like, it's, it's a you're. You're a part of this group as a whole, even if you're in your finances, your corporate legal reality demonstrates that. And that's true with other denominations, too. Now this this would be maybe a little bit more divisive in the sense, or more subtle, maybe I should say, is that there are some denominations that just don't say anything

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Andy Miller III: as it relates to human sexuality, or there's no discipline for those who move against historic Christian teachings. And so like it seems like that's on a similar. It might not be explicit.

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Andy Miller III: But with those groups it's a similar A lack of discipline seems to imply permission.

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Christopher Bounds: No, no, you're absolutely right. And again, thinking about this this issue. And and you know, thinking about from a Protestant perspective, the Protestant marks of the Church. I mean, how can you tell that your local church? How can you tell that even your denomination is a part of the one Holy Catholic and apostotle.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.

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Christopher Bounds: How can you tell? It's the true church. Well.

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Andy Miller III: Yes. Good question.

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Christopher Bounds: From a historic Christian perspective. In Protestantism there are 3 answers, and I say that the Protestant sort of marks of the Church. But it's not that. Necessarily the Catholics and the orthodox disagree.

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Andy Miller III: For sure, for sure.

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Christopher Bounds: Protestant Protestant marks of the Church. But but anyway, what are those marks? Well, it's the preaching of the pure Word of God, the due administration of the sacraments, and, as you've intimated here, the community rightly ordered, which has everything to do with the exercise of discipline and.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, yes.

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Christopher Bounds: Discipline in the life of the Church.

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Christopher Bounds: and you know the 1st was the preaching of the pure Word of God, sound doctrine, sound teaching. And what I've just said to you is that from a historic Christian perspective, sexual ethics are a part of sound doctrine.

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Christopher Bounds: And you know, even in. You know the councils. You think of the Ecumenical Councils, and whether you accept 7 ecumenical councils, or you accept 4 ecumenical councils.

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Christopher Bounds: Nevertheless, as a part of those councils weren't just the the doctrinal statements, but but there were also canons that that had to do with the regulation of, and significant attention is given to the issues of sex and sexuality.

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Andy Miller III: Man, yes.

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Christopher Bounds: Been a perpetual issue, you know, within the the body of Christ. And so there's a certain sense to which it's it's it's it's doctrine and practice, practice and doctrine. Doctrine. These are seen as distinguishable but inseparable.

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Christopher Bounds: inseparable from from one another. And so all I'm saying is is a church that that may affirm the Apostles and Nicene Creed, but denies

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Christopher Bounds: historic Christian teaching in regard to sex and and sexuality. The idea that they're preaching and teaching the pure word of God. Sound doctrine is called into question.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, yes.

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Christopher Bounds: And then, if if that is called into question, then think about if you have someone, and and again

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Christopher Bounds: the authority, the exercise of discipline. It has everything to do with the exercise historically, what's called the exercise of the power of the keys, and you know Christ has given to the church

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Christopher Bounds: power, authority to to exercise, and this is seen in Matthew, 16, Matthew 18, and seen in John, chapter 20,

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Christopher Bounds: in in which Jesus says, Whatever sins you forgive, they will be forgiven whatever sins you do not forgive. So so this idea of discipline in regard to the Church, and and the way that this has been historically exercised in the Church has been the Church to deny baptism.

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Christopher Bounds: to deny baptism to the unrepentant sinner.

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Christopher Bounds: the unrepentant sinner who comes and seeks baptism. The way that discipline this authority.

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Andy Miller III: Yes.

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Christopher Bounds: Are the keys is exercised historically is is the denial of that that person. So if that person is engaging in sexual sin is engaging in in

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Christopher Bounds: again mortal sin. And again, that's not just a Catholic term that's historic, Christian, this mortal venial sin, we like to say, that's Catholic, but you know some sins, indeed, are more grievous in the sight of God than others. Sort of the folk theology idea that all sins are the same in the eyes of God. No one has believed that in history.

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Andy Miller III: Right, right, right.

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Christopher Bounds: You're no major theologian, no Christian. So

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Christopher Bounds: again, someone engaging in major sin is is unrepentant and and is denied baptism. Someone who's already in the church, someone who's already in the church and is engaging in sexual sin.

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Christopher Bounds: then they're to be denied.

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Christopher Bounds: Holy Communion, historic.

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Andy Miller III: There to be.

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Christopher Bounds: Holy Communion. If they continue to be persistent in in their lack of repentance, they're to be excommunicated from the Church. So all this, to say, is

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Christopher Bounds: a a church that has denied historic sexual practice. They violated, you know, the 1st mark of the Church, the preaching of the pure Word of God. And then, second.

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Christopher Bounds: yeah, because there's no discipline being exercised in regard to them. That's the violation of the 3rd mark of the Church.

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Christopher Bounds: But then, because of baptism and regard to Holy Communion, the sacraments are.

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Andy Miller III: Wow!

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Christopher Bounds: Longer duly administered. So if you just take this one case, study of sexual ethics

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Christopher Bounds: to a certain extent, there is a denial of the 3 marks of the Church. There there is the lack of the preaching of the pure Word of God. There is the lack of the community being rightly ordered, and there is the lack of the due administration of of the sacraments. And so it calls into question. You know the very validity that this congregation, or this denomination is a part of the church. Now, please hear me.

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Christopher Bounds: Yeah, again, I'm just.

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Christopher Bounds: I'm just using this as an exercise in which to think through what Ponnenberg and Odin were trying to point us toward, and why sex and sexuality here would lead them to say, churches that move in this direction.

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Christopher Bounds: are no longer a part of the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

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Andy Miller III: Indeed, Chris, this is incredibly helpful clarity that I think is needed for our time like this is. And even if people understand, I think there's an intuition that leads us there to be able to think about what's happening and say, no, this is, this is going too far, and I think it's helpful, too, like I just even think of some really outstanding laypeople who maybe haven't had the opportunity to study

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Andy Miller III: Augustine like you have like, or to like to have opportunity to really think through these details. I always find there to be wisdom from the spirit in these faithful communities who just have a sense that, like they might not be able to tell you the details. Why, when things are heresy, but they know it when they see it.

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Christopher Bounds: Yeah, yeah.

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Andy Miller III: There's some of the wisdom that the spirit brings to congregations in this area, and and I and there's always and I appreciate you saying this, you were the 1st person that I heard say this when I was I think I was a seminary student at the time, but calling out the challenge of like what you call the folk theology, that all sins are the same. And you mentioned when we say mortal sins.

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Andy Miller III: what's implied by that? What do we mean by mortal.

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Christopher Bounds: Yeah. Yeah. Of course, this idea of the distinction between mortal and venial sins comes from one John, chapter 5, 16 and 17, which talks about the sin that leads to death, and the sins that do not lead to death, and what we do with the sins that lead to death. And so.

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Christopher Bounds: and of course, John is writing to a believing community, is writing to a believing community here and again, this discussion of what you do is in the context of a believing community. And so there is again this recognition of mortal sins, sins that lead to death, and sins that do not lead to death. And again, the 1st 5 centuries of Christianity does significant reflection.

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Christopher Bounds: you know, in in regard to sort of the the sins that do not lead to death venial sins, and the sins that do lead to to death and the mortal sins. What mortal sin is are sins that

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Christopher Bounds: that Christians continue to participate in.

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Christopher Bounds: they continue to participate in, and if they continue in that direction

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Christopher Bounds: it will lead to their spiritual death. It will lead to their spiritual demise. That's what a mortal sin is. I'm not saying that at the moment that you commit a mortal sin necessarily, that your whole salvation is called into question, but it is to continue to to move in a particular direction in regard to a mortal sin. If you continue to do that

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Christopher Bounds: then?

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Christopher Bounds: then your salvation is in jeopardy not unlike. And you know, by the way, you're you're familiar with another place where we see this so clearly is, is the book of Romans which is so often misunderstood. But Romans 6, you know, one.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure. Sure.

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Christopher Bounds: In sin in order that grace may abound. May it never be! May it never be! And a lot of people what they do when they read Romans 6. And they see Paul use the word sin is, they load that word sin with every possible meaning. Of course you have this word meaning fallacy that comes into play because Paul is using the word sin. He's using the word homertia, you know, which is the idea of missing of the mark. Any missing of the mark is.

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Andy Miller III: Right, right, right.

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Christopher Bounds: No, no, Paul is very clear in the Book of Romans that sin is a is a willful transgression of a known law of God. As a matter of fact, he goes on, you may remember earlier in Chapter 5, of Romans 13, he says, where there is no law there is no sin, and what he meant by that is in that context is

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Christopher Bounds: that if you don't know it, either through the light of conscience, Romans, chapter one, or through the Scriptures chapters 2 of Romans. You're not going to be judged by it. And so this gets into the age of accountability and things like that when we stand before God in final judgment, what we're going to be held responsible for is what we know not, what we don't know in regard to it.

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Andy Miller III: Right, bye.

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Christopher Bounds: Anyway? Romans? 6. Shall we continue in sin in order that grace shall we continue to transgress the known law of God? Shall we continue to do what we know is wrong. May it never be? And Paul says he goes on to say, because we need not sin, we need not sin. Why? Because we've been buried with Christ and raised to new life in Christ resurrected with Christ. But then he asked the question again, 6, 15. Shall we continue in sin in order that grace may abound, and again he says, May it never be! But this time

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Christopher Bounds: we we need not sin.

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Christopher Bounds: The second time. He says, we must not sin.

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Christopher Bounds: Why? And this is 6, 23. For the wages of sin is death

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Christopher Bounds: to Christians, who who willfully, you know, transgress. You know the law of God living in rebellion against God. And again, please hear me. I'm not saying the moment one does that, but I'm saying, if one continues in that direction, it will lead to their spiritual destruction mortal sin. And that's what mortal sin is for Christians to continue to engage in these sins.

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Christopher Bounds: it will lead to their spiritual destruction. Their lives are threatened, their souls are threatened by spiritual destruction, those are mortal sins, and those things have been identified in the history of Christianity, one of which is, by the way, heresy and schism.

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Christopher Bounds: and then.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, in itself. Yes.

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Christopher Bounds: As mortal sins in history. And again, the sexual sins have been identified, and we're a part of that. And it's going to take the Church early on what to do with those who've been baptized and have committed sexual sin.

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Christopher Bounds: Again, what do you? What do you do with them? And and of course it's going to lead to the Donatist controversy as well. That's a part. It's not just of the renunciation of faith, but but the issue of sexual sin.

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Christopher Bounds: you know, after one has been one's been baptized, and of course we're going to move in the direction of Cyprian and others. There's a second repentance that is allowed, and a process of restoration in the life of the Church. And and again, a part of the exercise of discipline isn't for punitive reasons, but it's for redemptive reasons to bring about reconciliation and to bring about a restored relation, not only with the Church, but a restored relationship with the Lord, as well.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, this is so helpful, Chris. Some people might be saying when they hear this on a practical level. Yeah, Chris. Andy.

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Andy Miller III: gmc, but who are you to make this assessment?

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Andy Miller III: And this is interesting, and this is, I want to go back. You addressed it just briefly. The power of the keys in church discipline, and John Wesley had some things to say about the power of the keys as well, and and this has been a helpful concept to me to what exists within the body of Christ as a Church, as we are connected to

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Andy Miller III: the one holy Apostolic Church, and then ones who express the 3 areas that the other 3 marks that you mentioned from the Protestant tradition. But who are we? Who are we to do that?

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Andy Miller III: To make these assessments.

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Christopher Bounds: Yeah, yeah, who are we to make these assessments? Well.

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Christopher Bounds: I, I would say this, that one

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Christopher Bounds: is is to study what exactly is the power of the keys. And then, second, to ask the question, Who has the power of the keys? And this is where there have been historical discussions and and debates. Please hear me. Here's what we've done is we've completely ignored. There is such a thing as the power of the key.

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Andy Miller III: I absolutely.

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Christopher Bounds: We have completely ignored that there is such a thing as as authority to bring discipline within the church

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Christopher Bounds: again. There's sort of 2 directions that the Church has gone in regard to authority in regard to discipline and accountability. Within the Church. One extreme is anti-nomianism, which is to practice no discipline whatsoever which is by and large what we've lived with and lived in

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Christopher Bounds: the only people who at times in in contemporary evangelicalism today the only people who who ever get any disciplined, and they don't. Even that happens doesn't happen very often, has been with clergy, but it's never been down to the laity.

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Christopher Bounds: but even this has been part of the problem. It's the lack of discipline is why we've had clergy abuses and.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, yes.

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Christopher Bounds: Go on and and just by the way, Evangelicals have not just been, but the Catholic and Orthodox have been guilty of not doing so one extreme is anti-nomianism, the other extreme is legalism, and exercising it in just purely punitive ways.

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Christopher Bounds: And so again, the need is is a redemptive exercise of of discipline to to bring about the work of of redemption. So but but let me just say this, you know, who are we?

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Christopher Bounds: Well, part of us. We're we're ordained,

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Christopher Bounds: given the authority to preach the pure Word of God to duly administer the sacraments, and to rightly order to exercise authority within within the body of Christ. We've been given that authority. And so

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Christopher Bounds: my job as an elder, my job as a theologian, as a pastor, is to help people 1st of all to understand this, and to understand that as well, that this is absolutely necessary for the Church to be the Church when the Church abdicates its responsibility.

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Christopher Bounds: So you can't have discipleship without discipline within the midst of this. And so even in our United Methodist tradition, even within the global Methodist tradition within Wesley. John Wesley himself, in one of his for me one of his most significant sermons, written a few years before he dies, causes for the inefficacy of Christianity.

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Andy Miller III: Yes, yes, yes.

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Christopher Bounds: Wesley asked the question, Why has has Christianity been in Great Britain for a millennium for a thousand years, and done so little good?

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Christopher Bounds: And he identifies 3 reasons why that is the 1st one is a lack of sound doctrine, a lack of sound doctrine. But then, second of all, he says, a lack of discipline, a lack of discipline, a lack of accountability to doctrine. There must be discipline.

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Christopher Bounds: To to theology. There must be practice. I mean. It's just going back to the primitive. When I say primitive. I'm talking about early Christianity, not just New Testament Christianity. But you know the 1st 4 or 5 centuries of Christianity, as well. Recognizing that doctrine, theology, and practice go intimately together, and there is the need

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Christopher Bounds: for redemptive discipline to be exercised within the body of Christ. So you ask me, who am I? I don't know that I'm anybody other than to call the Church once again to what has been historically understood and necessary.

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Andy Miller III: Right.

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Christopher Bounds: To truly be the Church, and for Odin, Odin helps us to understand this. It is the preaching of the pure word of God, the due administration of the sacraments, and the community rightly ordered, is, in fact, the way that the one Holy Catholic, and Apostolic Church is formed. It is, it is formed through those.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, exactly.

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Christopher Bounds: The means, the the marks are are the means by which the spirit works.

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Andy Miller III: And there's a way that you're not. This isn't Chris bounds, or the Gmc's private decision that we say, well, we just think that this is how things work. We. What we're suggesting is that we're leaning in to the primitive. The early Church's understanding as it's been expressed through the history of the Church. I mean, that's what we're saying, that this is this, not this, this view, this interpretation, this reality, this dogma, is what marks

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Andy Miller III: the one universal church.

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Christopher Bounds: Yes, yes, and and that is again what we're recognizing, especially where sexual ethics are concerned. And and again, if you wanted to use the the Nicene marks, you know, of the more traditional Catholic marks the problem with the issue of sexual ethics. And what's happening? It's a denial of the holiness of the of the Church. Yeah, it's the denial of that of that mark, that is, that is there. But it's also a denial of

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Christopher Bounds: apostolicity as well, so it's not just.

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Andy Miller III: Yes.

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Christopher Bounds: You know, tracing back your lineage through apostolic succession. But it's in regard to our faithfulness to the teaching that we've received from the apostles

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Christopher Bounds: once delivered to us, and our faithfulness to to that, and and and

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Christopher Bounds: again I could go on. But please hear me. That faith that was once delivered is a dynamic faith. It grows, it does develop, but it does not change. It does not change. Yeah.

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Andy Miller III: This is so helpful, because what we need to have is like these ecclesiological foundations set in place for why and how the church operates. And, Chris, one of the things just even through your preaching that's been so helpful for me is the way that we understand love like how love plays a role in this. And and you I mean you were one of the ones that even understand the different kind of definitions that come from Augustine to Aquinas.

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Andy Miller III: but I think, like both of the both of those expressions of what love is is a part of why we're calling upon the Church to respond.

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Andy Miller III: So would.

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Christopher Bounds: And then.

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Andy Miller III: Those distinctions.

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Christopher Bounds: Yes, I lost you just for a moment.

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Andy Miller III: Give me. Yeah, yeah.

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Christopher Bounds: Sure that I understand. You want me to talk about Augustine's understanding of love, and Aquinas's understanding of love in regard to the issue of discipline.

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Andy Miller III: That's right. That's right. Yes, yes, that's right.

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Christopher Bounds: Yeah, yeah, and you know, this is it? It is interesting. I mean, this is fundamentally one of the great problems

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Christopher Bounds: that exists within the body of Christ today is that we don't understand what love is. We like to talk about love, but what love has gotten reduced to. And it's actually the larger society that is defined for the Church. What love is and is unconditional acceptance. That is what love is. Love is unconditional acceptance. Well.

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Christopher Bounds: no,

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Andy Miller III: No.

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Christopher Bounds: So we talk about the unconditional. I'm not against necessarily unconditional love of God. But please hear me. Unconditional love is not unconditional acceptance. It is not unconditional. So

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Christopher Bounds: you know, Augustine for me is very helpful here as well as Aquinas in regard to why do we exercise discipline? Why is this important to us. The issue is, why not just live and let live, you know, within the body of Christ in regard to sexual ethics, because it is, in fact, it is

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Christopher Bounds: not just the love of God, but it is the love of neighbor that compels us to share the truth in regard to this. Now, Augustine, for me is given the most helpful sort of definition of love

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Christopher Bounds: for for me and and that is that that love is

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Christopher Bounds: the alignment of the will

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Christopher Bounds: to bring about union.

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Christopher Bounds: So Augustine basically says that love is is composed of 2 parts desire and will

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Christopher Bounds: seeking union. So whatever is loved

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Christopher Bounds: we seek union, we seek fellowship with it. We seek oneness with it, even if that's you know I love chicken wings in my description of chicken. What it means is, I desire oneness with chicken wings, and I make decisions and choices to to bring that about. It's not desire alone. It's not will, it's desire and will.

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Christopher Bounds: you know, working together. This is at the heart of John 3, 16. For God so loved the world, so desired union with the world, what God in the way sin got in the way of it. But God aligned his will with that desire for God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son.

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Christopher Bounds: The same thing you know, in regard to the love of enemy, Jesus said, You know, commands us to love our enemy. It means to come to a place where we desire reconciliation with the enemy and work towards that reconciliation. But, please, and this is. Augustine helps us to understand this as well. This is not some sort of syrupy sappy, you know, sentimentality here, but but love never settles for a superficial union.

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Andy Miller III: But.

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Christopher Bounds: Always works through a true and full union, and addresses the issues and the problems and the obstacles they get in the way of the fullest union, that is, that is possible. And so if, if, for instance, the area of sexual sin is is something that is in the way of our union with each other. It's in the way of of union with with God. Then in love we address it.

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Christopher Bounds: and and allow the Holy Spirit of God to to address it in our lives, so that there is nothing that gets in the way

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Christopher Bounds: of that union which is the very essence of love. And so the purpose ultimately of discipline and the exercise of discipline with, and accountability within the body of Christ is to be done in love. We we desire, the fullness of union that you can have with God the fullness of union that we are capable of having with with one another. And so this calls for accountability. So give an example of this.

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Christopher Bounds: You know, if I, as a pastor, as an elder, am being abusive in my relationship with with my parishioners.

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Christopher Bounds: then I should be disciplined. I should be called to accountability. I should be shown what I am doing wrong there, and if I am shown what I'm doing wrong, and I continue to do it. Then the level of discipline has to be elevated in my life. Possibly the point where my credentials would be taken away from from me.

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Christopher Bounds: But the 1st desire and will working towards union and overcoming whatever the obstacles are, this is the reason why, again,

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Christopher Bounds: A serious sin

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Christopher Bounds: must be addressed in our lives because it gets in the way, and it will destroy the Union that we have as believers with God and the union that we have with each other, and therefore it's got to be addressed out of love. It's got to be addressed. But then Aquinas adds to this, because I, if you take Augustine's definition of of love, desire, and will working towards union.

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Christopher Bounds: It could be narcissistic, you know, so that I seek you.

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Andy Miller III: Oh, right sure!

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Christopher Bounds: For the purpose of myself. This is part of the problem, by the way, of sort of a hell, only, you know, IA fire insurance form.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, true.

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Christopher Bounds: I don't really want to leave my sins. I just want to not have to pay the consequences of it. Well, there is the you can seek God for all the wrong reasons.

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Andy Miller III: Amen!

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Christopher Bounds: Yeah, yeah, it's not out of the love of God, but it's out of the love of myself. It.

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Andy Miller III: Person.

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Christopher Bounds: Very narcissist. I can seek union with you, and the reason why I seek union and I work towards, and I foster that relationship because of what you can do for me.

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Christopher Bounds: so it can be a narcissistic love. But in the end Augustine helps protect us because it again union, which is at the very heart of love, never settles for anything less than true love, true union, full union that is there. But Aquinas comes along, and further clarifies it, and Aquinas says it's to will the good of the other. So I seek union with you.

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Christopher Bounds: not for my benefit in the.

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Andy Miller III: Right right, but.

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Christopher Bounds: But for your benefit to will, the good, and work towards the good of the others.

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Christopher Bounds: And so, in regard to the issue of of of sexual sin.

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Christopher Bounds: We come to those who are in the midst of sexual sin.

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Christopher Bounds: and we come to them not in a spirit of superiority, not in in a spirit of judgment.

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Christopher Bounds: but out of out of love, out of genuine love and concern, because we're afraid of where it will lead, not only for you in your relationship with the Lord, but where it leads in the body of Christ as well to move in this direction. So we're concerned about you, and we're concerned about the body of Christ. And and again, this is one of the reasons why

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Christopher Bounds: some believers are excommunicated because their lives become not just dangerous to themselves, but they become dangerous to the body of Christ as well to the local church as well. And and again, with what we're seeing. And please hear me. I'm actually one of those individuals that believe. As a result of the fall

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Christopher Bounds: there are genuinely people who are born into this life who who are probably born with same sex attraction. I'm willing to to to believe that.

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Andy Miller III: Right, right.

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Christopher Bounds: Willing to believe that as a result of the fall, that there are people who genuinely have gender dysphoria as a result of of that, but that is an expression of of the fall and the brokenness.

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Andy Miller III: That's right. Amen. Okay.

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Christopher Bounds: Creation and stand in need of redemption in regard. So I'm not denying that. But but I also want to say, make no mistake.

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Christopher Bounds: that sexual sin

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Christopher Bounds: is a contagion

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Christopher Bounds: and and and we're seeing this. And and again, I,

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Christopher Bounds: studies are helping us to see, especially among the Gen. Z's, that that it's not not quite a quarter. But it's 2223% of Gen. Z. Are struggling in the areas. And the larger percentage of those are, you know, identifying as bisexual. In the midst of this, please please hear me.

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Christopher Bounds: A lack of sound doctrine, sound teaching, and sound discipline, you know within the body of Christ is contributing to this. And and again, if we don't preach and teach and talk about this, and exercise this within the body of Christ. Those who are within our midst are going to remain. They're going to get their messaging. They're going to get their instruction in regard to it from the world and not from Scripture, and not from sound

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Christopher Bounds: theology. And so this isn't something that we can sort of think and let think, because we live in a world today that it needs clarity, you know, in in regard to to these issues.

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Andy Miller III: With this these definitions of love which are so helpful, and if you ever get to be around Chris for a whole 10 day camp meeting. You will hear him preach on this subject, and you need to listen. And so it's just. It's very helpful. And that was a really great summary of that, Chris. And one of the things that's interesting as we think about what love is. There's a way that this action of moving away.

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Andy Miller III: of saying, even to a church, you're in the direction of no longer being the Church. This is the death of the Church that that is a loving corporate.

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Andy Miller III: There is, in a sense, even in this move away, and it seemed very unlikely in a social capacity that it could happen. But there is a sense that this is a call to institutional or corporate repentance, I mean, that's what the loving.

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Christopher Bounds: Absolutely.

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Andy Miller III: This moment.

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Christopher Bounds: Absolutely, absolutely. And so that's what I I would say with the global Methodist church that have have left the United Methodist Church. I. We need to

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Christopher Bounds: have the door remain open.

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Christopher Bounds: and we need to continue to be in conversation and and dialogue. Why, for the possibility that there will be that they will see the error of their ways, and will come to a place of of repentance, and then the possibility of reconciliation or resurrect. You know we are people of the resurrection.

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Andy Miller III: Amen. Amen. Yeah.

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Christopher Bounds: We believe that that God can take the dry bones and bring life to them. Again and again I, as I said to you, I'm unwilling to say at this moment that the United Methodist Church is is dead.

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Christopher Bounds: and I'm unwilling to to say, with any assurance that or surety that the United Methodist Church has ceased to be a part of the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, but it's it needs something to help

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Christopher Bounds: shake it from its left. It it needs. What? What is it you put the paddles on and and.

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Andy Miller III: Oh, it's not treatment. Yeah, I don't know.

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Christopher Bounds: What?

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Andy Miller III: Yeah.

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Christopher Bounds: Yeah.

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Andy Miller III: Is that right? Yeah.

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Christopher Bounds: I I can't remember the the name. It's it's it's left me. But.

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Andy Miller III: Oh, man, my! My 1st aid certification is I'm showing I need to re up it.

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Christopher Bounds: Oh, no! Oh, no, yeah, I

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Christopher Bounds: I I know what it is, but it's it's this is what happens when you get older. Andy.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, I guess.

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Christopher Bounds: That hasn't happened to you hasn't happened to you. It's not that your memories in is any worse. It's just that your your you have more on the hard drive of your your brain, and just have the same RAM as you did when you were 20 years old.

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Christopher Bounds: makes it makes it difficult. But again, I'm not writing off

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Christopher Bounds: the United Methodist Church, and I pray for the United Methodist Church. But

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Andy Miller III: When do you? What? But here's the question like, when has the Episcopal Church United Church of Canada, or these other ones?

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Christopher Bounds: We haven't.

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Andy Miller III: That line like.

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Christopher Bounds: I think they have. Some of them certainly have crossed, have crossed that line, and the thing about it is as well.

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Christopher Bounds: and this would be a conversation for another time.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah, sure.

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Christopher Bounds: If you get sex and sexuality wrong.

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Andy Miller III: Yes.

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Christopher Bounds: It affects everything.

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Christopher Bounds: it it affects everything. If, if, in fact, John Paul the second's theology of the body is correct.

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Christopher Bounds: yeah. And and where I might have some disagreements with, and I do with with John Paul. The second theology. I do think that his major premises

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Christopher Bounds: are, in fact correct. And again, if he is correct, then the issue. If you get sex and sexuality wrong, it affects

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Christopher Bounds: everything else, it affects everything. And this is the reason why sex and sexuality or so it's not by accident that that you know in Ephesians, chapter 5, Paul calls this, you know, speaking of the relationship between husband and wife. I speak to you of a mystery. It's not by accident that the Bible begins with a marriage, and it ends with a marriage. It's not by accident that what it is to be made in the image of God is to be created male and female.

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Christopher Bounds: And but there's a certain sense to which, especially in in Paul, John Paul Ii's theology is, you get this wrong.

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Christopher Bounds: and the implications are far reaching

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Christopher Bounds: into most areas of theology. You get this wrong, and you are going to have ramifications in regard to the doctrine of the Trinity. You're going to have ramifications in regard to Christology. It's going to affect other things as well. And so you know, the issue of sex and sexuality is not a peripheral or ancillary issue to Scripture, but it is

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Christopher Bounds: it it is. It is central to to Scripture.

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Andy Miller III: No, if we were to look at this like, do you think back to you? Think of the theology of the body just a distinction between male and female, not just from the creation narratives, but also the distinction of the necessity of Jesus coming as a man into a woman like this is.

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Christopher Bounds: That's part of.

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Andy Miller III: I know that I think we're starting to get to a whole other subject which I don't.

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Christopher Bounds: That's right. We're moving into a different area. Just a last word in in saying that this isn't just about sex.

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Andy Miller III: Amen! Amen!

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Christopher Bounds: It is not about it, it has far reaching ramifications, and this is a reason why to get back to the original thesis. This is to use Roger Olson's definition of a dogma. This is a dog. This is an essential issue, and not a doctrine or an opinion issue.

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Andy Miller III: Amen. Yeah, Chris, the clarity that you bring to this topic, and in general, just from in my life in general, I encourage folks just to go in Youtube or Google Chris's name and find places where he's preached. He's somebody. And those who in the Pan Wesleyan world, which is mainly my audience. I hope that you'll look him up and see the things that he not only he's written, but his preaching to bring this sort of clarity

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Andy Miller III: that helps us understand theological categories, historic theological categories that can give clarity for how we act and respond. Now, Chris, it's such a gift to the church, been a gift to me to the institutions that you and I both love and have served. So I really appreciate the time that you've given us today. I know you occasionally listen to my podcast. I ask the question sometimes, Is there more to this story?

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Andy Miller III: And I know some of the more to the story to Chris, because we've been in close proximity for a while. But is there something kind of fun about you that you don't often get to talk about something, a hobby that you have, that maybe people don't know.

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Christopher Bounds: Oh, I think most people know this. I have a great love for the Golden State warriors and Nba. I love to watch some good Stephan Curry. I have a great love for great shooting, and I love to watch so my guilty passion. If I can say this to you, my guilty passion is. I have an Nba subscription. I pay $119 a year.

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Andy Miller III: To be honest with you.

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Christopher Bounds: Watch Nba basketball so anyway, that's that's my, but it goes back to my playing days of playing basketball. But anyway, most people are not aware that I have a subscription to in the the Nba, yeah.

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Andy Miller III: Well, the the warriors looking pretty good this year. So far they.

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Christopher Bounds: They're off to a good start, and and Curry's had some some good good games so far, but anyway.

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Andy Miller III: Can you not enjoy watching Steph Curry play basketball? That is one of the it is. It is a joy just to see him move around. It is great. Yeah.

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Christopher Bounds: Absolutely.

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Andy Miller III: Well, Chris, thank you for your time. It's a blessing to me, and we appreciate all the work that you're doing through your vocation. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

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Christopher Bounds: Thank you, Andy. It's been a blessing to be with you, and so appreciative, for of you and and your ministry and your leadership in the body of Christ. Thank you.