Top Ten Books on Discipleship

Matt Friedeman and I come together again to present our top ten books on discipleship. Podcasts with Matt are always fun and fast-paced, and I think you will enjoy this episode.

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HERE'S OUR LIST:

10. Invitation to a Journey, Robert Mulholland

9. The Divine Conspiracy, Dallas Willard

8. The Band Meeting, Kevin Watson and Scott Kisker

7. The 5Q Method of Discipleship, Matt Friedeman

6. Rediscovering Discipleship, Robby Gallaty

5. Developing Talent in Young People, Benjamin Bloom

4. The Complete Book of Discipleship, Bill Hull

3. Dedication and Leadership, Douglas Hyde

2. Journey to Spiritual Wholeness, Stan Key

1. The Master Plan of Evangelism, Robert Coleman

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Transcription

Audio file

Top Ten Books on Discipleship with Dr. Matt Friedeman.mp3

Transcript

This is the more to the story podcast with Doctor Andy Miller.

We hope you guys enjoyed today's conversation.

Welcome to the more to Story podcast.

This is a special edition because.

It's not just more to the story podcast, it's life changing.

Discipleship, podcasts I love.

When we throw in together here.

Andy, it's there's.

We got some things going here.

You and.

Me, yeah, that's right.

We we share an office.

Wall so that helps us a little bit.

Well, you're almost doing it anyway.

Ha haha.

'cause the office wall is paper thin.

At any rate, I always hear you doing this thing, I think.

Right?

Man, we obviously be doing this together 'cause we talk about the same things a lot.

So right the more the story so we're just going to tell you right now at the at the outset.

We would love all everybody listens a life changing discipleship podcast.

I want you to go check out and regularly check out the more the story podcast.

And vice versa, go to the life changing discipleship podcast.

In subscribe you can find mine on YouTube. My Andy Miller third com. These are all like, well, we're talking a lot about similar things and today I hope that you get this. Got your attention because all the things we're putting forward is.

A top ten list and I that's part of why I wanted to bring Matt in Doctor Matt.

Freedom of course serves here as a faculty member at Wesley Biblical summary, who is a sponsor of both of our podcasts where we are trained in trusted leaders for faithful churches, and we do that through providing Dr of Ministry masters degrees, Mdev, Emaze, bachelors.

I agree we have a new program coming where if you want to get a bachelors degree instead of paying a ton of money for a long time, all you have to do is like you come in a subscription model for $300 a month. You can take as many courses.

As you want at Wesleyan.

Get a load of that as many courses as you want for 300 bucks a month. That is like a.

That's right.

The education is rich, the cost is cheap.

Right absolutely.

And there's all kinds of things happening through that.

And you're teaching undergrad and graduate.

Actually, you're teaching all three areas right now.

Yeah, and we have also have a program called this.

Yeah, tell us about that.

Well, the Western Institute.

What we like to do.

There's there's two phases of it.

First off, we'd like if you take the Bible part and just say.

I want a journey through with Wesley Biblical seminary professors. The 66 books of the Bible, and we do that in about 9 months time.

We're going fast, but we're going.

Right, right?

It's really rich stuff and right now.

Into your teaching.

That's right, yeah.

Natural, and then when you get done with that.

We're going to do a brand new thing next year with theology, and so if you want to get theologically grounded, wow, you can do nine months of that as well.

And it's one of the best things we do around.

Here called the Wesley Institute, right? And you can find out about that at wb.edu so and there's a variety of other lay programs are available, so Wesley Biblical Seminary is coming.

I mean we have we are at the highest point ever.

In our enrollment, God is doing a amazing thing to Matt.

You've been here to see through it all.

I mean, so it's a.

It's a great day to be able to come along and join Wesley biblical Scimitar.

So I'm not very good at math, so I've been thinking OK, so I've been saying all year long I've been here 33 years actually.

In August it will be, might it be 35 my 35th birthday here. If there's such a thing as a birthday as and it's an anniversary.

Oh, we need to have a party.

So my 35th anniversary of being here at Wesley, both Sony is August. When I wrote into town now No 3 1/2 decades.

Ha ha.

OK, all right, I need it.

And it's been a it's been an interesting run, a great run, but it's never been better than it is right now.

It's a great.

To get a great discipleship education.

Right, well, praise the Lord and that's what we want to talk about today.

So top ten books on discipleship.

So what we did is we came together and we had a little battle to figure out how we could come with the top ten lists.

Of course I submitted to the senior faculty member and also the one who emphasizes this in the courses that he teaches, but I have a few of mine.

In there as well and you'll see some of these top ten lists making their way on a regular basis so you ready.

Yep, all right.

Let's go.

So yeah.

Oh no, oh.

Well, see you youyou did we plan this.

We talked about it and you read for.

A just a plain old bad no.

Oh man.

We the 1st.

Thing you do, Andy and you know.

This yeah if you.

I know it's I'm I'm chastising moment.

Want to feel chastised in this moment?

You reach for the Bible, right?

Yeah, and really the the *** ship begins all the way back in Genesis, it moves ahead.

But it really reaches at 8.

Its apex at the point of the Gospels, and so we think.

Do you have a favorite gospel for discipleship?

Do I, for discipleship, I no I?

Don't so I I really liked the gospel, Matthew.

OK, OK, certain amount.

Yeah, yeah, of course it ends with the great discipleship declaration.

Go and make disciples right, but I think it's, uh, it's it does a lot of with the rabbinic theme that Jesus asked teacher and how he's trying to teach and what he is teaching.

I just love the Matthewnow that's a little personal bias there, but maybe it's 'cause of my name.

I don't know.

Oh, that's right.

But anyway, I love.

So we'll just start off.

Saying, read the gospels if you want to know how.

To disciple right and and this is that it's not just number one, it's all the numbers.

Yeah, everything and like this. The discipleship process needs to come through scripture on a regular basis soso we have 10 footnotes, 1010 ways to think about the Bible and and you helped me too. And and.

And so we have 10 footnotes.

Right?

This is the distinction he made.

I I put in two in the list that I wanted to have in there about discipleship, but you thought there are really more spiritual formations, so the first one I included was Doctor Robert Mulholland's invitation to a journey and this book was really helpful to me to think about the contours of how we move along this path towards discipleship. So this is a this is an important book that II add into this.

What do you think that it should?

Be on list or health.

Yes, I think there's a couple of his books that could be on this list.

What I really like, of course, I had him as an.

Instructor did you?

Right, right?

You know I didn't.

I interacted with him selling, but yeah.

OK so I had him as an instructor for whatever it's worth in a class he was really into at that point into learning contracts.

So whatever you'd like to study, just build up a contract for thatspent about 25 or 30 hours on it. So I did a great.

Oh, interesting.

A learning contract on the incarnation and what it means for the church today and he gave me a B plus OK.

Very irritating, but I use that I used that learning contract for the first two chapters of my book.

The master plan of teaching and so he really helped me.

OK, OK.

That way.

He's a great communicator, lots of brilliant.

Insights, and I assume that's I have not read this book actually, but of the of the several that he's written.

Oh, it's just OK.

I've read one or two women very much appreciated.

Him well, so this would be this would be a key one that kind of mapping the spiritual formation process.

OK, I'm gonnahave to keep moving here 'cause I know again in this more spiritual formation category. I wanted to throw some Dallas Willard in here and we could have picked many different Dallas Willard's books.

You got right.

Right?

But the divine conspiracy, Matt this is this is one that I wanted to include.

What do you?

What do you think of Dallas?

Dallas Willard says something interesting in one of his books.

Silly stuff.

I forget which one, but he says there is no prob.

Problems that the church faces that can't be solved by discipleship.

Right?

Right?

And so he says, the key is and what time you're dealing with spiritual formation.

But I like the idea that discipleship, at least in my mind, is not just hearing a sermon or hearing a Bible study.

But it's really life to life transformation that someone is sharpening you for the gospel.

And to me that's what happened with Jesus.

With the disciples, that's what happened during the Western Revival.

Iron sharpening iron lot.

To that and at the end of the day, I think Dallas Willard was absolutely convinced that that had to happen.

There's also interested in this book too.

There's this chapter.

He's some great analogies about imputed and imparted righteousness that I just encourage people to take a look at.

I feel like Dallas Willard might be Wesleyan in camouflage.

Sure, sure yeah yeah.

Exactly, it's hard to read it and.

Not think that so.

There's a lot.

OK, I'm

Gonna stop there.

Alright now I have one.

Sorry thanks.

OK pause, stop hitting.

Yeah, well, I'm I'm hearing it it's.

Yeah, Oh my God.

And then could you just?

Get more in my mouth.

What do you want?

Oh, thank you.

Thank you, thank you.

Thank you, OK.

So we have #10 invitation to journey #9 the divine conspiracy and I'm going to throw in canvas as a place setter for the Wesleyan movement as a whole number 7 it could be the class.

Let's go.

Meaning, but also the band meeting by Scott Kisker and.

Kevin Watson so.

This is a really helpful book for me to be able to re enliven this idea of getting together in a group and to ask the important questions that like guided the Wesleyan revival as a whole.

How is it with your soul and then getting it got very specific into it?

So tell me, man.

I haven't read it, but let me just say I know about the band means know about.

Oh, OK.

The class meetings.

Those were some interesting dynamics 'cause the first question.

Was what known sin?

If you committed since the last time we were together, leader starts so the leader who would start would say, well, this is what I did this week that couldn't have been.

Right, right?

You know, great with God and you go around the circle.

Fascinating stuff.

Real quick here.

George Whitfield.

Apparently one day ran into one of Wesley preachers, says hey, you still are you still Wesley and says I am?

Proud to be one of his preachers says, well, my brother Wesley acted wisely the souls that were awakened under his ministry, said George Whitfield.

The souls are working under his ministry.

He joined together in class and thus preserved the fruit of his labor.

Right?

I neglected and my people are as a rope of sand.

So pretty powerful quote coming from maybe the greatest preacher in human history, right and Whitfield.

Say Wesley had it together.

As far as organizing, and I think Kevin and Scott there talk about how he organized and how we could still do it.

The day with the band.

And the class meetings, and for ways where I use this kind of that storage structure every week, I have a band meeting two other guys we come together and we ask that question of each other.

You know, is there any sin you have to confess great?

Well, other weaknesses.

You have so there is.

There is definitely some value with that, and honestly to be a Wesleyan is to be in a small group and being a social group I think like if you're not willing to be able to do that and have that sword and it doesn't have to call a band meeting.

But if you're not willing to have accountability and grow as a disciple.

You might not be a Wesleyan.

And accountability is tricky.

It's not just a Bible study.

It's not just saying hey how.

How can we be better this week?

It's really asking some tougher questions, and to have that growing relationship with a few guys across months and even years, I've been meeting with a group of for two groups now for about 9 years.

Yeah, right, right?

OK and.

You know you can just do some things in those groups that you can't.

Do with a.

Group that just started last week nonetheless.

Right, right?

So the banner class meeting emphasis are interesting.

So that's a great.

Great group there.

Oh, I have to you see what I'm bringing up.

Oh I'm bringing into Matt Freedom and so I'm gonna talk about this.

'cause he probably want to talk about himself.

So I had two the the five Q method is something that you've developed and this is this is a scriptural, focused way of discipleship where you get in a group of people you have a spiritual formation.

High passage and you work through five questions and these questions don't just emphasize.

Like like those inward type of things, but also emphasizing what you do with this, like the last step is to move out into the world and act upon what you've read.

You want to give.

Us a 5 questionsreal quick.

Well So what I like about this methodology is instead of starting off with my sin, let's start off with.

The Bible and I just think that's important, yes.

OK, yes yes Sir.

And so you start off with, so it's.

This asks it's sacks so if we start with Scripture and say all right, let's read it.

Let's look over it for a minute and then let's say Jesus, what are you trying to say to us through this and you go around the circle?

Say what are you seeing?

What's a word?

Yeah, yeah.

What's a phrase?

What's a T?

And so you have that discussion, and that is so rich.

Then you go down to now, hey, how can we adore him?

How can we adore this God?

So let's pray some prayers of worship and adoration based on this scripture, right?

So let's always go back, your voice goes back to that passage for.

I love that, yeah.

Then we go to, uh.

But we go from adoration down to change. Now I usually switch up T&C.

So saxes asked, I usually do the T 1st and T is testimony, so is there a truth in here that I can testify is true for my life?

Right, right, right.

Now we already know it's true, but how can I know it from my life?

What's something that's happened in my life that kind of proves this point.

Then the next one is what I call the linchpin, and that is change.

What do I need to do to change this week to stay consistent with the lessons I've just learned from you guys through Scripture, right?

And you hold people accountable for that next week.

So if you say boy, you know I really need to apologize to my wife and you so you ask the guy that said that.

Well, when you're going to.

Do that yes, yeah.

Well before the next meeting.

OK, so it's always nice to have someone texting that guy about mid week to say hey wife thing.

Have you had that conversation and then the next meeting?

He'd say this is what I did.

This is how I changed this is what happened.

So when you start.

Doing that, you actually see life change people doing things because of that passage.

It's powerful.

And then the last thing is simply, let's pray for one another using this passage.

Yeah, so those are the five questions and it's pretty powerful, yeah?

And well, it's interesting.

I've you know, we've done this together.

I've been in some groups that you've done.

I've hosted groups.

We do this here at Wesley Biblical Seminary, and even just a kind of a not silly example, but just one that shows you like kind of the way that you do something about it.

One night we were doing this together and we were maybe read a Psalm and the thing I wanted to change.

I said I want to sing more instead of like trying to find a podcast when I'm in my car, I'm going to sing and so you came in to me the next morning, said, what was your song sing, Sing for?

Me sing for me, man you did.

Right, yeah, and I did.

So I'm also throwing there just as a way of advertisement discipleship in the home.

This is a course that we teach here, but also Matt Schlapp matchbooks discipleship in the home.

If you don't know he's six children who the fully devoted followers of Jesus, somebody we should learn from.

I'm gonna throw throw that.

Good thanks so much.

In there you want to go.

OK so yeah, let me start doing some.

Books that I've found interesting on this option for my own life one is I'm reading, right?

Now and there is a my brother-in-law and Sister Pastor, a mega church in Florida, OK, and so he's got right now a.

Zoom this option meeting talking about this book.

Interesting, I thought.

Oh that's interesting.

Let me get in on that so.

Uh, this next week we're reading Chapter 3 and justice.

What do you find interesting?

Chapter 3.

That's all.

That's all we do.

So this book is called rediscovering discipleship by I'm not quite sure how to say his name.

Robbie Gallaty maybe?

And I I'm finding a lot of great insights.

Actually, some stuff I teach in my graduate level courses are here at a very understandable way for laypeople about Jesus that he break mindset, etc.

OK.

So very interesting book and I only include that not because I'm ready to call it the top ten, but I include it because.

I'm doing it right now and finding it very helpful now.

OK, that's great.

I do consider this one top 10.

OK.

It's a little bit off the beaten track. It's called developing talent and young people, written by the last generation's greatest educational researcher.

A gentleman named Benjamin Bloom.

OK, some people may recognize who've been in education blooms taxonomy, for instance.

Well, hehe devised that.

Oh yeah, yes yeah OK OK.

So he's done a lot of really great research from the University of Chicago.

Nonetheless, he decided.

I wonder if we could find any.

Kind of things that are congruent across the lives of concert pianists.

OK.

If they've written reached a certain level.

They've won a prize that we value here.

Those people have won that prize.

What happened in their lives?

Yeah, yeah.

And concert pianists, sculptors, Olympic swimmers.

World class tennis players.

The math mathematicians research neurologists so and then they asked.

Question a huge research team did did thousands of hours of interviews to find out what happened.

They'd interview the person that was excellent as well as their family and other interviews as well.

And I love most of all because I teach this in our class discipleship in the home here at Wesley Biblical Seminary, home influences on talent.

Development interesting.

In fact.

One of the things they found was almost everybody that are reachingthat it reached the pinnacle of excellence in these chosen fields.

Got there because of family Wow and it's because of the way those families operated.

Let me give you for instance.

They were talking with, I think an artist and she was saying, you know, my mother kept everything I'd ever drawn at school all the way from kindergarten and some of the kindergarten things are framed in our house.

To this day, I'd bring these home.

I've shown Mama.

Oh, this is wonderful.

Look at the way you drew that line.

Look at the colors, beautiful usage and it go on a wall or.

Going to refrigerator and it was greatly lauded.

The researcher asked, did she do that with other things in your life and she said?

Said she thought about him and says, you know, she didn't.

I'd bring home a math paper A plus and she say very good and she put it in the drawer.

Well, there you go.

Interesting and others.

She became a great artist because that is what was valued in her home and they showed it by the way they lauded her for that.

The encouragement right?

I just find that fascinating, so II teach that to our children to our students.

I said, listen, what do you value in your home?

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it may be football, that's fine, but are you valuing football over the Kingdom and over discipleship?

And over Jesus endeavor?

Wow, that's a great question to begin asking ourselves, particularly Christian families, because I tell them I don't want you to be a great.

I don't want you raised great sculptors, you may, but that's not.

Right, right, right, right, right.

What the I want you to raise great disciples.

How can we do that?

The great.

Book so this I love how you're doing this because what you're doing is taking this this secular research and then using that as a way to think about the cycle shift.

So it's not just a OK.

This is how you read your Bible.

This is how you shape people to be something that you think they're they're called would be all right.

Exactly right, it just yeah so.

Next book is more of an author and it's almost unfair.

He's done such excellent work across so many years into Saab ship.

It's almost unfair not to mention him.

His name is Bill Hull and he has put together a good bit of his life research in a book that he calls the complete book of discipleship.

OK.

And there's so much good stuff in this.

He's just done a lot of great work force.

This is what it looks like in the Gospels.

He talks about the competencies model, the missional model, the neighborhood model, the world view model, the lecture lab model, the best of model, and looks at various churches that have it together that did a good job of these things, and a lots of.

Other stuff, so this one particularly, and this is number 4 for us.

Oh well, we.

So #4.

We we've marched up the number 4 already.

Yeah, we we've gone pretty fast.

So this is like kind of a uh, kind of a synthesized version of all of his other work.

It is.

So you recommend this one.

He's done a lot of great work across a.

Lot of years.

So #3 before we get to that one.

Yep, we have another #3 that you don't that we weren't able to find because we did this so much last minute.

But you have a number 3. That's another one of these that you wouldn't expect. So tell us about #3.

We won't tell you.

Who my evangelism professor was when we get the number one 'cause he wrote the.

Number one book.

And we're working. Yeah, we.

Well, I'm not going to mention his name till so that number one evangelism professor in the world said to students, I want you to read dedication and leadership by Douglas Hyde.

Have two and one left.

Now you're thinking, OK, wait a minute.

This is about communism.

Wait, so you open upthe.

Book it's a book.

It's about God, but he, he says, listen all right.

So I am now a Christian, but I gotta tell you.

Yeah, the church doesn't make disciples nearly as well as the communists made disciples.

They says I'm not talking about the bankrupt theology.

It's bankrupt.

Don't do their theology.

Don't do their ideology.

Don't do their worldview, but they knew how to make a disciple.

And so he just goes through the March there.

This is how they did.

It and this is how the church ought to think about doing it more, and I love it because one of the things he said is that has always impacted me and started impacting me pretty mightily in seminary when I read.

Book and that is you do it with action.

Most dis option programs, virtually all discipleship programs today, do it with content, right?

Right, right, right.

He says no, you need to take content out and you need to exercise it or it will be useless to you very fast and so let's do it.

With actions, so one of the great chapters has, and I believe the guys name is Jim is Jim comes up to him and says and he was a stutterer.

So I'm not I'm won't stutter and I don't.

I don't want to make fun of stutters I don't want to even try to stutter but he was a stutterer and he comes up and says, I listen, I.

I hear you can make anybody a leader.

I want to be a leader, yeah and so so he's looking down this guy thinking Oh no, I did say anybody, anybody could if they'll just do it says so let me try it.

Let me see if it really works and he became a great leader and a great Communist leader.

Yeah, yeah.

And Douglas Hyde says, and this is what happened.

And primarily what happened was.

Content Plus action action plus content content and if you think about it, Andy.

OK.

That's how Jesus made disciples, he said.

I'd interesting.

Here's content, but we're going to go out to the untouchables.

We're going out to the margins.

We're going to go out to the needy, people and exercise.

Right?

And we're going to have debates with people that hate our guts.

But we're going to engage.

In some very serious dynamics.

But it's more than simply content, so I I love that for.

Right?

That reason you know it's interesting as it was a music major in college and so and I I'm working with my boys right now and like playing instruments when you're.

When you're playing an instrument, what you do is like it's very subtle, but it has to happen outside of a theory has happened when they're playing their instrument and.

Then you notice things and you've reflect on what they're doing to help.

But the action, the action.

Piece that doesn't.

Well, that's what great correction comes from.

You don't know what to correct until someone messed it up and that's that'sthat's the power of, you know, you all do horns in your family we we do mostly strings.

Yeah, yeah.

So guitars.

Basically, and some piano, but you know you've messed it up when you mess it up and you know to do something different when you mess it up, but you don't know that until you've done it.

Right?

Right, I love this next book, #2 don't.

Do #2 is this?

We just say #2.

Is it OK if we

Made this a number 2.

Now I like.

I like when we can say our friend wrote a book.

Our friend, our friend absolutely and I think we probably both did.

Uh, endorsement for this book by Stan Key.

So journey to spiritual wholeness, and this is just a recent book that came out, but I'll, I'll try and find what I actually wrote about it here.

He had a lot of people emphasizing, I said, Stanky gifts us with an ancient yet relevant metaphor to shape.

Our spiritual lives the journey.

Them applications as he calls it of the Israelites journey from Egypt to Canaan will be a blessing to those who read this book.

We will never experience the wholeness God has for us.

If we resist this call to adventure so.

Pack your bags.

Find the map and start moving toward the wholeness God has for you.

There's this great stuff listen so you start off in Egypt.

Everyone starts off in here.

That's right.

Everyone is a slave, but he gets you out of Egypt.

He gets you across the Red Sea, which is your salvation.

Right you Bab.

So he gets you out of and then you find yourself in the desert.

Wilderness, yes.

Yeah, you're in the wilderness school, the Desert University, and he teaches you things there.

He can't teach you on the other side of the sea, and so it takes you all the way to the promised land.

Right?

And it's it'sit's some application.

It's brilliant.

And so he takes this idea and just.

Applies it in really emphasizing the map as.

The means to like spiritual formation, discipleship.

But one things I appreciate so much is not just like crossing the the Red Sea but crossing the Jordan River.

So then it also leads to a place where we experience a sanctifying grace of God in our.

Lives and that's so important about that is, he says, the Jordan River isn't death, but Jordan River is here, I mean.

Right?

Right?

You need to get across that and have a.

Now we are fully consecrated and now we're living in a promised land.

But by the way, the promised land isn't all rest, and andand comfort seating, it's hard work.

Right, right?

That's right.

They're their enemies there.

You're going to have to plant.

You're going to, so that's the promised land hard work.

We have battles fighting, conquering and I love it.

So it's, uh, I'd like to thank you for bringing it up, because, uh, stanza.

Dear friend, and this is a great book.

And by the way, it it what he makes the case of in there is.

It goes along pretty good with the order of salvation that John Wesley talks about.

Right, right?

Yeah, and you know the subtitle is how the map of the Exodus.

This illustrates our own spiritual journey and part of what, Matt, what Stan is trying to do here, is talk about the doctrine of sanctification in a way that people can grasp and hit in his concept.

And it'sit's very valuable is to think about this idea of the Israelites map that people can see themselves on that journey.

OK, we're coming to number.

One OK now before we get there I want to make sure you.

So there are several things that are available to you now.

Leading is subscribed to either of our podcast, but I'm I'm the offering folks.

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So I'll send that to you.

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Said free free it's free.

Yeah, can you send it to me or do I have to sign up for this part?

I've been I used to sign up.

For the email list, there you.

Go so now we've made it to number one all right.

Then number one.

Book I'm discipleship.

According to Andy Miller, Matt friedeman.

Is OK, so Andy walked into my office.

It says what's number one?

I said are you kidding me?

That's not First off, we gotta start with the Bible, right?

So apparently the gospel math is the real number one.

That's somewhat.

Ha ha.

But there's only.

There's no, there's no argument here.

OK.

All right.

The guy that wrote the book that folks like Bill Bright and Dawson Trotman all these guys looked at and thought.

That's pretty informative and Billy Graham love.

The master plan of evangelism.

Bum bum

I think it's misnamed, but nonetheless he does have a book called the Master Plan of Discipleship.

But this master plan of evangelism talks about discipleship better than any book in history.

This is what Billy Graham says few books have.

Had as great an impact on the cause of world evangelization in our generation as Robert Coleman's master plan of evangelism.

So I have actually been in a dis option group with Robert Coleman.

OK please, I'd love to hear about it, yeah?

Can I tell you about it real quick?

OK, so this would happen.

Yeah, we need this too.

He would tell his classes.

That if you want to be in a discipleship group with me, come and we're going to be meeting in.

My office.

I don't I forget if it's 5:30 or six. It was some incredible hour the graduate student, wouldn't, you know, in his right mind wouldn't wake up for but anyway, right? So me and my buddies.

We were we went and we tried to get there 15 minutes early and we were like 20 yards away from his office.

It was all the way down the hall.

The hallway was packed.

It was packed trying to get in his office was office could only seat comfortably 5 people, six people.

It's very small office and we thought ourselves.

I mean.

What is this?

We can't even hear him, huh?

And so we went to our mentor, the student mentor Guy, and said, Hey, Bill, what's with this?

He says, ah listen the 3rd or 4th week.

If you'll hang in there, it'll just be you and four of the.

People wow, interesting.

So because everybody be so discouraged they leave yeah, but sure enough about the 3rd, 4th and 4th week it was us three and a couple, a man and a wife.

Could you drop out?

Yeah, sure.

We were the only people left in the room.

And that would be Robert Coleman group.

Moving ahead, he would spend time with him.

He played ball with him.

He'd let those people teach his classes, etc.

Now this was a frustration.

He was leaving my seminary, our seminary to go somewhere else, so he said at the end.

Yeah, yeah.

Usually what we do is this, but I'm leaving.

This school so I'm sorry.

And so I got we we missed out on some of the best part of it.

But the point is.

Yes, he practiced discipleship.

He loved the Saba ship and.

He coached people.

All around the world with the master plan.

And So what this book does is saying let's look to see what Jesus did and let's emulate him gotcha.

And it's got some really great chapters in here.

You know what are some of the things that he he did with you or even in this book that were that same idea that you had from the communist group like the action focus was that that there's.

Not nothing.

It's actually a little weakness.

No, it was.

It was all content don't.

OK.

And you know spiritual.

We would pray and fall on our faces before God and stuff, but that was it.

There was no that would take place in the second.

3rd 4th, 5th semesters.

Oh OK gotcha gotcha.

Yeah that was coming.

We missed out on that.

But let me just say, can I say out of all this, that action component is absolutely, utterly necessary to make it decidable.

Yes, and I was entered a *** ship group that missed out on that component.

It's not healthy.

You've got to have content.

You've got to be with each other.

Iron sharpening iron, but you've got to go do something together if you're going to be like Jesus and his group right, and I find that when John Wesley put together the means of grace he had worked so piety.

Right?

Right, right?

Which included prayer and fasting and Bible study and getting together in groups.

But he said the more important category, the more important category are works of mercy.

Right?

Notice getting out there with needy people, being with them, loving them, serving them.

You've got to have both things and John Wesley.

His whole life had both things operating in his life and as I.

Look at Jesus.

That's what he had going as well.

Yeah, and I love that we're able to kind of emphasize this and the way that it's important to like find ways to practice things.

But there is an important piece to of ensuring you're communicating.

Content therethere is another kind of honorable mention.

Like that, Oh yeah.

I could have said is Charles Lakes.

Resources like for communicating content and help people get things.

I'm sure you I, I thought of it while you're talking Al Coppedge books on some of these things to do.

You want to talk about that?

This is an honorable mention.

Well, the biblia the absolutely honorable mention of the biblical principles of discipleship by Al Coppage, which Telios Press puts out.

Right?

We kind of oversee telehouse press.

And that's that's some really good material as well.

Lots of great things.

And now Coppedge was another guy that for years, decades at Asbury Seminary, would have this option.

Groups in his home eat together with him every week, so very positive stuff.

Right?

Hey, one other thing.

Master plan of Angelism I've just come upon and I used it in my systematic theology course in Mexico.

There's a really interesting.

Thing he and I think 2012 came out with a book called The Heart of the Gospel. The theology behind the master plan of evangelism and it's a beautiful systematic theology that hovers all the errors. So people who are in my tradition, which is a Salvation Army if you're look.

Even for a book to use to be able to walk people through the basics of the Christian faith, I would highly recommend his book on is called The Heart of the Gospel.

Is published by Baker.

This is an older book, but let me just say I was with him a couple years ago 'cause we were celebrating our cottage and I had asked him to write an essay foralcop it for a book we put together for Doctor Coppedge

And so we were throwing a party for Doctor Coppedge and Robert Coleman was there.

I was walking down the hallway with him and he said, hey Matt, did you read today?

Walt, Today's Wall Street Journal.

They say you know DoctorDoctor Coleman.

I haven't, he says master plan events with him on the first page and there was some guy I forget.

But some famous guy in America that said my life was going down the toilet.

And then I read this.

Book and it gave me purpose.

It gave me a vision.

It gave me marching orders for the days ahead.

So if you haven't read master plan of evangelism folks, you hear that number one book for us.

Thank you so much for coming along and being part of the Mortis Story Podcast and the.

Ah yeah, life changing to SOP ship podcasts and we want to encourage you to do some cross fertilization with these two podcasts.

Yeah, those who listen to my podcasts.

Make sure to sign up for more of the story and.

Then vice versa.

I see, yeah, it's not safe.

I've come up come.

Ugly and and those are more to story people and you have got to get onto Matt, freedom his life, changing discipleship because you know one of the things I love.

Come on man.

How you emphasize there is you talk if you want to.

I I might not get this like just like how you say it.

But if you want disciples that all they do is.

Is get sit around and talk.

OK, so this is the phrase you.

Ha haha.

Got to get it right.

Yeah, now let me think of it.

Now, if you have confused me so.

If you can do it.

Yeah, so yeah.

Our producers.

I can do it.

I've heard that.

Enough, he says.

If you want to make this oh, gosh now I've I've messed it up.

I messed you up, but the idea is like you know, you know we just sit around.

And talk and you know that.

OK, here we go.

Here we go.

I got it.

So if if you make disciples by sitting around and talking, don't be surprised if your disciples sit around and talk.

There it is.

That's why movement and action and works of mercy are so vitally important.

And you'll get that from master plan of evangelism.

But most of all you'll get it from the gospel.

Supposedly, bang.

That's how Jesus made disciples.

Amen, wow, that's a great way to finish.

You think Matt?

Well, thank you for the opportunity to.

Be with you.

I thank you Matt.

Appreciate it and thank you by the way for.

Being one of the.

Great academic Deans of all the nation, now you're.

It's a real refreshing thing that you're.

Here with us.

Thank you alright and thanks for being.

One of the great professors of evangelism and.

Discipleship, and it's.

Really treats this stored with you at that role.

God bless you all.