Under Two Flags with Jason Swain

The point at which divine inspiration and human agency meat is not always easy to detect, Jason Swain, shows the Salvation Army as a prime case of this tension in his new book, Under Two Flags: The Rise, Rebellion, and Rebuilding of The Salvation Army in America 1870-1913. Check out various links here:

YouTube -https://youtu.be/_j_MkT0Ut84

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Apple - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-to-the-story-with-dr-andy-miller/id1569988895?uo=4

A FREE RESOURCE FOR MINISTRY – By signing up for my email list, you can get a four-page PDF document - A Guide for Exegetical Preparation for Preaching and Teaching. Sign up here.

I am giving away five copies of Under Two Flags. Here’s how you can earn a chance to win one:

1. Share a link to this interview with Jason on your social media.

2. Join my email list here - https://andymilleriii.com/about/email-list

3. Make a comment on my YouTube interview with Jason

Major Jason Swain was commissioned as a Salvation Army officer in 1998 and served in many different types of appointments in the USA Southern Territory including a term as a staff officer at the Evangeline Booth College in Atlanta, Georgia. He joined the publication staff at USANational Headquarters in July 2018. He is currently the Corps Officer at the Northeast Kentucky core and Ashland, Kentucky.

Today’s episode is brought to you by two sponsors:

Bill Roberts is a financial advisor, who has been serving the retirement planning and investment needs of individuals, families, non-profits, and churches for 25 years. He is a Certified Financial Planner and accredited investment fiduciary. Bill specializes in working with Salvation Army employees and officers by helping them realize their financial goals.

You can find out more about Bill’s business at www.WilliamHRoberts.com

AND

Wesley Biblical Seminary - Interested in getting going deeper in your faith, check out our certificate programs, B.A., M.A.s, M.Div., and D.Min degrees. You will study with world-class faculty and the most racially diverse student body in the country. www.wbs.edu

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Transcript:

Welcome to the more to the story podcast i'm glad you come along today is an exciting episode, because I have my friend on Jay major excuse me, excuse me, major Jason swain Jason welcome to the podcast.

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Jason Swain: Oh so glad to be here Andy.

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Andy Miller III: Now you have a new book out i'm holding up in front of screen for those who are watching on YouTube.

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Andy Miller III: Under two flags the rise rebellion and rebuilding of the Salvation Army in America 1872 1913, and this has just been published.

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Andy Miller III: Through CREST books, which is the publication arm of national headquarters of the Salvation Army so i'm fascinated by this now it's a little book.

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Andy Miller III: Is I mean it's like it wouldn't take you too long to get through it, but i'm fascinated by the subject by the name I want to talk through it as best I can with you, but the best thing you could probably do.

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Andy Miller III: Is go online or order a copy yourself now, today we have a special thing happening that we have five copies that are available for free, I do this every so often, thankfully, like doing publishers and authors are able to help me like this.

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Andy Miller III: If you share a link to this on your social media to this conversation, or if you make a comment in YouTube.

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Andy Miller III: Or the final way you can, if you join my email list of Andy Miller, the third COM that's indy Miller, I I COM there's a little tab where you can go and.

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Andy Miller III: You can join my email list so when this podcast comes out for two weeks after it, you can enter the contest and you can win a copy of under two flags so Jason as we get started here um I wanted to just curious, what is it that led you to want to write this book.

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Jason Swain: A couple of things I always was fascinated by the early days of the Salvation Army, and when I was stationed at the training college in Atlanta.

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Jason Swain: I was assigned to teach Salvation Army history, and we always go through those those early British days of the Salvation Army, and then we hit America and we go forward and we kind of stay in America, because that's where we are.

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Jason Swain: yeah, and this is just a little this this maybe 10 year period 1880 to.

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Jason Swain: 8090 was just as fascinating all these things happen here.

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Jason Swain: That don't happen anywhere else in the world.

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Jason Swain: hmm and then you get into a little bit more research about it and you find out that you know the the official story is not the real story there's actually some some there's.

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Andy Miller III: More to the story.

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Jason Swain: there's more to the story and that's why the book starts at 1870 and not eating at which is the official official welcome, of the Salvation Army into America.

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Jason Swain: there's actually 10 years of things that happened beforehand and then there's things that happened afterward that kind of end and culminate in 1913.

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Jason Swain: It stops there, the problem is going to stop there, and but actually in truthfully the end really comes in 1976 and that's at the end of the book and you have to read it to find out why I say that.

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Andy Miller III: Okay Well, this is fascinating and I philosophically I think there's something I want to hit before we even get into the content, you said something interesting not happening anywhere else in the world.

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Andy Miller III: And I think there is something about how the Salvation Army actually uses his mission in a given context, so we take this broad approach to reality, like how the world operates a facilitate and.

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Andy Miller III: live out a mission, but then it contextualize itself, and there are aspects of American society that don't comport well with the structure of the army.

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Andy Miller III: And so, like I think there's probably some of that comes to the forefront here in your discussion now.

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Andy Miller III: Before we get into the content of the book a little bit more like you currently serve as the lead the savage harmonies work in northeastern Kentucky is that right in ashland is where your base but you serve a huge area tell us quickly about that.

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Jason Swain: it's it's 11 counties in the northeast of Kentucky based in the city of asheville and which is the largest city actually in the in the region it's very mountainous appalachian and the the core has been here for 120 years or so.

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wow.

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Jason Swain: And you actually can go visit all the sites where the our army rented or built and we actually were just down the street for almost 70 years in one building.

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Jason Swain: And then they moved into this current building in 1996 and they've had their ups and downs, as all cores do but yeah we serve this entire area total population, probably around the hundred thousand when you take.

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All 11 Chi.

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Jason Swain: But, but most of his rural.

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outright.

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Jason Swain: And in that kind of thing.

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Andy Miller III: it's a unique environment, but yet because of its geographic location come on the eastern side of the country, like the Salvation Army was there early but it's.

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Andy Miller III: I think if you were able to go through even just the history of ashland you'd find some unique expressions of what happened in the army and also you know 11 counties that's a huge.

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Andy Miller III: Geographical footprint so like there's a lot of a lot of ground to cover there now you are able to write this book in part because you had a literary appointment, which is incredibly unique so you serve, like you, helped published.

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Andy Miller III: National publications at war cry young salvation is or peer and then, and then the Cross books right was that that part of what enables you to be able to do this project.

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Jason Swain: yeah part of it was that I was there at national headquarters and have access, one floor down or or two floors down to the archives.

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Jason Swain: So it's easy to go downstairs and and spend a half a day or an hour or a full I did a couple of full days and look through what they had their look at old war cries look at books that I don't own that were published.

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Jason Swain: Many, many years ago.

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Jason Swain: That had really well known today.

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Jason Swain: One particular one that has really was it was a great resource was the 1950s.

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Jason Swain: history of the Salvation Army and the United States from by Harold wispy.

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Jason Swain: Yes, wispy soldiers without swords, which is a.

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Jason Swain: herald Herbert busby, which is a great resource because that's still within that you know there were people still alive, who remembered the old the old days and that kind of thing so there's a lot of information in that book and that book is featured prominently also in DR mckinney's.

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Jason Swain: marching and lori history, the Salvation Army book and so those two were kind of my my base books.

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Jason Swain: And then filled in by others, others just just for little bits and pieces and that were found in other books, so those two were great to have and actually while I was at national, I was able to pick up a wispy book that was someone was giving.

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Jason Swain: yeah.

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Andy Miller III: So I can find him sitting around savvy shiny buildings every now and then.

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Andy Miller III: I always enjoy going to churches or establish armies and finding there might be one bookshelf but there's always interesting things there that have been collected through the years.

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Jason Swain: yeah the the national archives got rid of most of their library books.

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inside.

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Jason Swain: That was one great I got a whole bunch of back here on the shelf of things I received but also allows at the training college occasionally retired officers were bring their entire collection.

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Jason Swain: yeah and as they downsizing you know in life, and you know i'd always get a call from the library and say we got all these books, you want to come to look yeah I picked up I picked up some great some great older no longer published books.

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Jason Swain: yeah in my collection, so I was able to, I had the time we were also you know pandemic wise.

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Jason Swain: We right, we were we were kind of shut down or at least not in the office, and so I had some time on my hands to kind of go through some things and then I started going back to headquarters and there were just a few of us there every day, so it was real quiet.

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Jason Swain: yeah i'm really a great atmosphere for for for writing and then my.

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Jason Swain: My boss TIM foley's lieutenant Colonel team foley was editor in chief and he really encouraged me, he said, you know start just start something, and if it comes something comes out of it.

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Jason Swain: And I got about the first chapter done and I sent it around to several people said, what do you think one chapter, what do you think.

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Jason Swain: And I got such great encouragement to.

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Jason Swain: Go ahead and just.

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Jason Swain: write the rest right dress and it changed my original my original thought was just to write about the Thomas Moore affair.

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Andy Miller III: Right right.

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Jason Swain: That led to so many other things, and that just that weird 20 or 30 year period of the early days of the army in America.

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Andy Miller III: yeah let me jump jump in but I was highlight you some time the archives and you and I saw each other there well I would spend some time in the archives and it just said, our thanks to Susan mitchum.

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Andy Miller III: you'll notice many books academic books popular book popular books oftentimes and the acknowledgement you'll see her name and you'll see.

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Andy Miller III: archivists all around the world who have done a great job so like she she did that and really opening the door for you and and me on many fronts so.

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Andy Miller III: I want, I want to what I want to highlight like my kind of a praise I think you've done a great job in this book Jason and.

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Andy Miller III: it's not necessarily like academic research and that's Okay, and I liken it to one of the most successful.

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Andy Miller III: Books that has been printed in savage from the literature in the last 20 years and that's general john larson's 1929 the constitutional crisis that shaped the Salvation Army.

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Andy Miller III: In that huge YouTube went to the sort the secondary sources.

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Andy Miller III: Like was be like mckinley and then some of your own research show i'm not saying there's not any of that there but it's not like a theological analysis, this is just trying to tell a story well.

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Andy Miller III: so that people can get it, and I think you've done a great job because a lot of times people don't have time to go or find wispy or it goes through mckinley and we can keep going or like nickel you go through nickel you go through.

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Andy Miller III: Various booths writings and you assembly all that, and you tell a really compelling story, because a lot of times emotion time I say people don't know this people don't know what happened in this time period so tell us.

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Andy Miller III: Jason what is it what are these controversies what is it this rebellion that happened what is that people don't know.

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Jason Swain: I think I think the main point and I thought about this, since writing it and and the question boils down to to who owns the Salvation Army.

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Jason Swain: Right really that's really what it really comes down to and you get two opposing sides, one being the booth the booth family but general booth himself when booth himself and him working under British common law that's the first part.

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Jason Swain: Okay, looking part is we now are across the world, which is not too much of a different thing at that time from British common law, but we have this other thing called the United States of America and their laws are not the British laws are based on it.

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Jason Swain: But they're not the thing.

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Andy Miller III: Right right.

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Jason Swain: And so.

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Jason Swain: You get into this idea of well who owns everything who owns the building who owns the songbooks who.

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Jason Swain: owns this who can do this, who can do that who can't do this now that sounds kind of silly today to ask that, but in the 1880s.

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Jason Swain: That was a very important question, who owns the stuff or has the right to own this stuff and that's really what it really boils down to.

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Jason Swain: The Salvation Army came to America and had some issues early on, about signing signing things that owning things and renting things all these things that were very beginning and it became very clear very early that the idea that what we needed to do was form a corporation.

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Jason Swain: yeah and that was that's really where the where the crux of this whole thing started, but across the ocean when booth didn't understand that and and really couldn't even conceptualize.

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Jason Swain: That idea, how could we incorporate you know, he was against it totally now, it does happen, eventually, it does happen in the 1880s but then it happens officially again in the 1890s and that's where we still are today and those corporations all still exists.

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Jason Swain: yeah but.

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Andy Miller III: This is really interesting that you bring that up at the beginning and that actually that's the analysis, I think, is the implications of the historical facts that you described who owns okay I interrupted you a little bit there.

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Jason Swain: So that's the that's the crux of it.

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Jason Swain: yeah The other thing is, we hadn't quite figured out the whole massive expansion of the Salvation Army that happened in those times.

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Jason Swain: When the Christian mission became the Salvation Army everybody worth their salt will tell you that we had explosive growth, we were growing before, but when the name changed we exploded.

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Jason Swain: That was the That was the the the the nexus of that and it started and we became the Salvation Army and every day.

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Jason Swain: Where their new orders are no rules or new regulations we were this was this was being, this is a that that old cliche building the ship at sea, we were doing that and that was.

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Jason Swain: The way it was, we were not ready to expand to France to Australia to America, Canada, but we did it anyway, it just happened, naturally, and it kind of got to the point where.

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Jason Swain: Again, the International headquarters with William booth being the general in charge of all and bramwell being the Chief of Staff railton to being the secretary.

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Jason Swain: They were literally making this up on the fly, and so a lot of these things that happened, especially in America just kind of threw them a little bit because they had never had this experience before.

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Jason Swain: Right, we also got to remember at that that's our story did not just blow up out of the ground and we're everywhere, like we are today.

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Jason Swain: I mean in 1879 I mean we had Philadelphia, we had one place in Philadelphia that's it but by the time or Elton shows up in 1880 there's three core and Philadelphia and that's it like there's just really small areas.

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Jason Swain: Three small Chapel core centers in Philadelphia that's it and even when he leaves a year later they're still only New York a couple of New Jersey and in those couple in Philadelphia.

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Jason Swain: So it's not a huge thing now by by the it's moved very far West very rapidly it's moved south and west it's all the way out to St Louis again and all through Ohio Pennsylvania Michigan Wisconsin Chicago all those places and then strangely enough spontaneously out on the west coast.

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Jason Swain: Right, the Salvation Army starts has no connection back to the east coast it starts on its own, it has its own problems, and eventually gets fold it in.

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Jason Swain: During during kind of the crisis days but that's the kind of the strange things that happen and we've got to always remember that that the army was brand new.

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Jason Swain: Right well when eliza surely shows up she doesn't even have a uniform because it hadn't been invented yet right.

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Andy Miller III: it's it's it's anachronistic for us to jump back and assume that there's this like fully developed version of a denomination or movement organization that just wasn't around and you highlight to James JEREMY.

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Andy Miller III: hit him come in earlier than that even even a head of alliances surely so, then you then you have allies allies of surely and her family and the surely family and the.

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Andy Miller III: The kind of way they're trusting Member this 1879 the name change, and not just the name change.

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Andy Miller III: The organizational change, like the structural change that happened to.

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Andy Miller III: Put William booth as the autocratic leader that that change and many people would assume and say that's a part of why why we grew so expansively but that's just one year later.

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Andy Miller III: In just two years later, before George Scott railton comes with the famous hallelujah last season and to New York City so okay so we're in this period, where this is like.

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Andy Miller III: it's not exactly clear and there's a way that it's not expansive it's not like, as we say today serving in every zip code in the United States but we're just Thomas More enter into this and what what is it that happens with Thomas Moore.

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Jason Swain: Thomas Moore was a businessman from Britain and he actually came to America, after the civil war American Civil War so 1865 6667 somewhere in there, he comes to America.

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Jason Swain: travels the country we're not quite sure what business, he was in it's not really related in any anything what he was in he was some kind of businessman, and he did come to America, he went back to Britain came back from America.

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Jason Swain: So, all in all, he had served here for 11 years in this business aspect and then he goes back to London and he meets the Salvation Army.

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Jason Swain: brand new just had changed his name and he is enraptured by this whole thing he joins the Salvation Army and because he had this business background, which was very common in those days, he was made a what they call the divisional officer.

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Jason Swain: We can't quite equate it to divisional.

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Andy Miller III: commander today.

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Jason Swain: What we currently have but it's it's kind of all the HQ staff wrapped into one because they didn't they didn't have large headquarter staffs back then.

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Jason Swain: So he was the divisional officer he served in the south of London, he was in charge of all the the the core centers in the south of London and.

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Jason Swain: that's where he was an.

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Jason Swain: Relative railton comes in 1880 and by 1881 he's been recalled back the army is growing so fast booth needs his his second in command or his third in command to come and help.

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Jason Swain: And so, he does reluctantly and they look at the pool of officers in Britain because there were none in America right a pool of officers in in in in in Britain and who has experienced, who has some knowledge oh wait a minute more has been to America, he knows the country let's send him.

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Jason Swain: And so, Thomas Moore comes and that make some changes early on that.

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Jason Swain: benefit the army and he's still here in 1884 he's still here he's leading there he's made some changes the army has three or four years it's grown expansively when he shows up it's there's 12 core 12 centers by the time.

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Jason Swain: Of 1884 there's 125 I think is the number, so you know we go from 12 225 and three years, four years.

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Jason Swain: And he sees very clearly the problems with the army in America this this whole idea of, we need to be incorporated as as we spoke up already that the corporation needs to.

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Jason Swain: run the things, and then we can report back to London he sees that very clearly, and he sends delegations to London he writes telegrams writes letters here's the problem you can't you know you general booth cannot own property in the United States in every state and he.

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Jason Swain: would in some States not in every state.

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Jason Swain: You are a foreign national your subject of the British Empire, you cannot own property all over the country, so this is our problem, who owns the Salvation Army.

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Right.

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Jason Swain: And so the idea is that if we incorporate the corporation the Salvation Army common incorporated.

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Jason Swain: Would own everything and we'd have a board of directors and and it'd be made up of officers and staff, and they would just govern the legal side of it, not this not the ecclesiastical side, not the you know the growth church growth side it's just the legal side and business.

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Jason Swain: And that was really the crux of it and so he gets so frustrated that by 1884 he just he copyrights everything that he could he.

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Jason Swain: incorporates everything that he could and basically breaks away in this, this is the rebellion part breaks away from London and takes most of the core with him.

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Andy Miller III: mm hmm.

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Jason Swain: In the in the 8080 percentile right at 90% range, they all go they all signed on to this by by this time, all those officers have been trained in America.

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Jason Swain: They kind of understood more William booth was just this ethereal name that appeared in the war cry every once in a while he had never been to America, yet.

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Jason Swain: He was just this the general you know, he was he was across the sea and he he wrote on thing that was appeared in the war cry and that was it like no one knew who he was.

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Jason Swain: Right and and and and there was no loyalty to him per se.

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Andy Miller III: So more sets up his own Salvation Army of America and when he does this, he makes himself the general of the Salvation Army and of America and.

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What else they do that's different.

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Andy Miller III: Oh.

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Jason Swain: it's the headquarters in brooklyn not in New York, a.

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Andy Miller III: shake in just a second.

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Andy Miller III: Alright Jeff in 321.

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Andy Miller III: So Thomas More creates the Salvation Army of America makes himself the general Jason, can you tell me what is it that that he does differently, besides like not submitting to leadership of the general I mean that's, the main thing.

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Andy Miller III: What is it that he does differently when he creates a Salvation Army of America.

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Jason Swain: One of the first things he did was he copyrighted all the symbologist so he copyrighted the warcraft he copyrighted the flag he copyrighted the crest he cocker.

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Jason Swain: which was strange it just he just does it and and so that's, the first thing he does.

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Jason Swain: He moves headquarters now he had done this already, but he he kind of doubled down he moves headquarters from Philadelphia to brooklyn.

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Jason Swain: Not New York City and back then brooklyn was a separate city from New York City, so he moves to brooklyn and then he starts just kind of making very odd decisions not.

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Jason Swain: You know just because he was had the title general doesn't mean he was a leader.

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Jason Swain: He had you know and so he starts and he The other thing he does is because they're incorporated he starts he sets up a basically a board of directors.

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Jason Swain: And when they write the into the corporate documentation he basically says that everything is subject to the board of directors not himself, so he is not autocratic like William booth he is more leadership by committee kind of thing.

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Jason Swain: Right end up in about two years to come around and bite him.

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Jason Swain: Because when the bad decisions are made the board basically terminates him as a general and then we go through the next couple of years of back and forth, and what are we going to do, and it eventually collapses on itself.

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Jason Swain: almost immediately people realize this was a bad decision on on literally like the day it happened, they were people like maybe this should not have happened.

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Andy Miller III: This way.

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Jason Swain: It was all is all passion and emotion and and there were several leaders in the in the Salvation Army who realized this and try their best to reconcile it took another five years.

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Andy Miller III: Right, so one of the other things I always find interesting is that.

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Andy Miller III: In the more army, so to speak, he had a they practice the sacraments and they had a statement about the the Church, the understanding of the Church, that obviously felt like that is lacking.

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Andy Miller III: But let's just jump ahead because we, I want to get love to get too badly had to if we have time so so all this happens, a immediately realized there's a problem there is this heroic work, I believe that happens, and I like how you highlight to have hopes.

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Andy Miller III: And he kind of helps lead a group back so tell us about well how this comes back together like how things are rebuilt, and like what's going on in that next phase.

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Jason Swain: So the Salvation Army international now you have to you have to start adding these tags to it, because you get a by this time you three or four different salvation army's I using.

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Jason Swain: So we have in America, we have the Salvation Army will say international that's the Salvation Army that's still around with this which I belong to today, then you have the Salvation Army of America that's the more group will just call them, the more army for now.

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Jason Swain: Okay, later on, you're going to have the American Salvation Army.

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Jason Swain: My little group, and then you got several other copycats that show up from time to time, so the south shore international sends the next national commander frank Smith.

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Jason Swain: Now frank Smith has was the husband told you go to America and solve the problem, fine frank Smith comes to America and.

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Jason Swain: puts headquarters in New York and just starts publishing a war cry and they just they just.

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Jason Swain: He starts off, but he believes, because this is what he has been told, but he also what he believes that all who left our traders hmm and that's a strong word but that's what he uses and so Richard holtz.

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Jason Swain: met the Salvation Army in buffalo New York was quickly promoted, he was he was an excellent excellent officer, he was in charge of upstate New York based up up up in Albany.

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Jason Swain: And he was one of the ones who almost immediately realized this was problematic so when frank Smith shows up holtz leads the delegation into New York they show up at headquarters and said we're here to talk to.

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Jason Swain: frank Smith, the national commander, and they are rebuffed they are literally thrown out of the building and called traders.

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Jason Swain: And rebellious scum pretty much and do not come back holtz is saddened by this, but he says okay i'll bide my time and off he goes.

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Jason Swain: Now frank Smith did some amazing things and why the book is called what it is, is because it's frank Smith, who says we are the true Salvation Army and we are the true Salvation Army in America just a slight.

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Andy Miller III: change that either right right.

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Jason Swain: And therefore we will now start carrying on our marches parades and in our halls the American flag, along with the Salvation Army flag, so we will now serve under two flags.

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Andy Miller III: There you go.

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Jason Swain: And that's the title of the book so it's frank Smith, who does that and that that's kind of odd because we think of the more army of the Salvation Army of America they would be the more patriotic but that's not the case.

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Jason Swain: it's it's the Salvation Army international who starts this trend, and it remains so today.

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Jason Swain: In every Salvation Army Hall, and every savage arm Chapel on our marches if we do those anymore, and anything that we do it's always there always together.

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Jason Swain: cover the book is evangelists booth when she shows up as national commander in 19 for you see she's carrying both flags and you see the little on the army flag, you see the little.

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Jason Swain: American flag tact in the corner that was another another thing that was that was kind of unique to America on those days so uh.

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Jason Swain: frank Smith comes along calls them out holtz bides this time now during this whole time, this is the middle middle.

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Jason Swain: Individual cores are returning to the Salvation Army they're leaving the more army, one by one, slowly, you know officers are either resigning and the people but there's also and I mentioned this in the book people have no clue what's going on the people.

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Jason Swain: The soldiers even some officers out West have no clue what's going on they're reading about these things.

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Jason Swain: And and and they just have no clue and odd things happen, you get you get controversial.

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Jason Swain: telegrams go back and forth and a telegram goes out one day that says, Thomas more's no longer the general gist of the Salvation Army of America.

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Jason Swain: And then, more sensitive Carmen says disregard that last one yep i'm still in charge this because it goes there's like four and a day I could imagine a poor officer trying to do their.

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Jason Swain: Their work in 1885 86 and they're getting these telegrams every every couple hours you know, a today, but I getting an email every five seconds I mean you know back and forth i'm sure they were just flabbergasted so during that.

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Jason Swain: frank Smith finally is recall back to London, he has some work to do that he's going to do, and finally the right man is sent, and that is the generals.

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Jason Swain: Second son barrington booth and his wife MOD charlesworth who come there co national commanders and they are, they will stay here for 10 years.

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Jason Swain: They will live in America, the rest of their lives, but they will stay as national Commander for 10 years, they are the ones who start the ball rolling.

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Jason Swain: He meets with with hopes and they said we're not sure how this is going to pan out but we'll let's work towards it.

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Jason Swain: And a couple of years later, they create this big reconciliation day and strangely enough, it happens in saratoga New York, not in New York City, but, but a lot of the core at that time were up in the north.

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Jason Swain: Country and New England New York Pennsylvania those kind of places and so that was considered the hotbed of this rebellion so we're going to do it up there.

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Jason Swain: They have a big parade they all march into the hall, you can still go to that City Hall you actually going up up the stairs into the entrepreneurs, on the second floor.

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Jason Swain: And the army marches about the salish army marches in, and then the the the the others come in March march into applause and singing and there's just a tears and there's great reconciliation that happens on that night.

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Jason Swain: But not everybody's there.

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Jason Swain: there's a small very small group of officers who are just still not.

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Jason Swain: reconciled to this whole thing and they start the American Salvation Army based in saratoga, of all places where this all just happened it's based in saratoga by a guy by the name of William tan.

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Jason Swain: And when your tan and about 12 others start this America American Salvation Army and then they last about 10 years and then they fold they he sends a letter out that says, you know, we have no basis, we have no growth, we have no money.

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Jason Swain: we're folding.

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Jason Swain: And when Bhutan does not goes away does not enter the story until back about.

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Jason Swain: He sends a very large packet of documents to evangelism booth.

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Jason Swain: And he says, I have been remiss I should have done this, a long time ago here is the Charter and all the documents for the American Salvation Army, as the only Member still remaining of the American Salvation Army, I have, I have given you the authority.

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Jason Swain: To do that with with what you will, so technically.

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Jason Swain: Until that is absorbed into the Salvation Army international General of the evangelists booth was was the general of the American Salvation Army for a couple years.

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Jason Swain: You know it's because she had it all now that whole pile of documents are gone like.

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Jason Swain: No one knows what happened to him there's there's no record of the other than we have this letter, we have the cover letter that's familiar to him.

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Andy Miller III: And he goes interesting like you have so this group Okay, it could you talk about the group that's still in like operation a day in the DC area.

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Andy Miller III: Oh yeah rescue workers.

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Jason Swain: yeah so well that that's another part of the story, so in the 1890s.

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Jason Swain: Well, I have to go back there's there's a lot more to this than that so more lead is thrown out of the Salvation Army of America.

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Jason Swain: Right and they took the Board of Directors can't find someone to replace it.

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Jason Swain: So they they end they asked several people and they all say no, and they finally get to hold back why holtz is important and hold says, I will not be the general, but I will I will I will take on the mantle of Commander and so you see documents are in this it says, Colonel Richard holds.

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Jason Swain: commander it doesn't like the general just as commander.

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Jason Swain: When when more goes off to New England and he starts a group called the crusaders for Christ, and within a year or two he's actually thrown out of that group as well.

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Jason Swain: And then he starts becoming he is a traveling evangelist from that point on till he ends up in Kansas and there, there is, where he passes on.

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Jason Swain: The crusaders for Christ decide to change your name back to the Salvation Army of America.

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Jason Swain: So here we go again.

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Jason Swain: We have the Salvation Army international.

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Jason Swain: We have the American Salvation Army and we have the Salvation Army of America, so we have all these at this one time.

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Jason Swain: And they become they stay the Salvation Army of America until this white ends in 1913 they stay that until the Salvation Army finally gets tired of it and said Susan it takes a couple years but they've the Salvation Army wins, and they are.

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Jason Swain: Under orders change the name change or symbols change or everything have changed, they become the American rescue workers.

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Jason Swain: And the America squares for about 50 years grew and kind of kind of did their thing and they did their thing we did ours, they were similar, but not the same, and just over the years, they have they have slowly.

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Jason Swain: gone away, they used to have 16 places in operation, and then there were 10 and then there were four now there's three.

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Jason Swain: Okay they've dropped all their military jargon and terminology.

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Jason Swain: they've they've they've pretty much they will not be much longer in operation.

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Andy Miller III: So, even just a few years ago they were still wearing uniforms.

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Andy Miller III: kind of thought of themselves as a church, it was like finding this like cousin that you never knew about when you like.

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Andy Miller III: Look him up.

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Jason Swain: yeah their doctrines are almost word for word, they they they had colonels and captains and they rent that they didn't have a seminary they you were taught kind of in the field, you know you.

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Andy Miller III: You.

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Jason Swain: You kind of thing and they had at one time they had places all over and their general they did have the general for life kind of thing.

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Jason Swain: And he finally retired guy by the name of Claude Aston and Claude finally retired and turned it over to his son Sean.

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Jason Swain: Who right after that they dropped all their uniforms and everything and, if you look it up today you'll see a picture of Sean he's just wearing a polo shirt.

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Jason Swain: way interesting their logo and he's he's he's not the general he's he's just executive director.

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Andy Miller III: But there now, this is so interesting like what's happened.

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Andy Miller III: We probably don't have too long to talk about badminton I want to make another observation of something that our way this even impacted my life.

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Andy Miller III: The stuff with more that you have not until 1976 there's some changes that come about now if you, you still might even see remnants of it around but, for instance, I was looking for some documents, just yesterday, and I have found my dedication.

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Andy Miller III: document that dedication slip whatever you call it like certificate that's it and as i'm looking at it it's an I was born 1985 dedicated 1980, but there must have still been enough around that.

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Andy Miller III: The old days in the United States, the Salvation Army had a different CREST there would be an eagle on top of the crest representing America.

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Andy Miller III: Jason you tell us why that is.

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Jason Swain: yeah that goes from the copyright of.

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Jason Swain: More copyrighted the crest and the shield everything and it even our flag, if you notice United States flags are different than British or other flags it's just a little the star is different.

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Andy Miller III: yeah.

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Jason Swain: It all comes back to that copyright, now we could go back to the old one, but we're used to that one that and so.

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Jason Swain: The CREST had to change as well, and so the idea was well we we don't have to change everything just one thing to make it our own, so the Salvation Army in America changed it to an eagle on top.

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Jason Swain: From Isaiah 41 they will mount up with wings of eagles is what it meant, but the Americans took it as very patriotic.

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Jason Swain: yeah we have this So you see old pictures, you always can point out the American salvation as they've got that eagle on the top of their craft.

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Jason Swain: And that is in place, even when I was a kid they were they were retired officer she still had that eagle on the top of stained glass windows and a lot of buildings of certificates were still around.

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Jason Swain: And even when I worked for the Salvation Army before I went to training in the 90s, we were still.

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Jason Swain: Dealing with the old buildings that had the eagle on the outside, in some way and and there was actually a program to get that changed in the 90s so we're talking 20 years after the fact.

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Jason Swain: But.

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Jason Swain: there's it's still around I have pins I have, I have all kinds of things that have that ego on it 1976 the Commissioners in the United States found out that the.

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Jason Swain: Copyright had elapsed and was not renewable by anybody, so they quickly grabbed it up copyrighted it and we went we went back to the the the Crown.

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Jason Swain: crown crown CREST in this way it.

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Andy Miller III: Probably once again under Britain.

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Andy Miller III: We find ourselves.

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Jason Swain: wow.

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Andy Miller III: I know it's more spiritual than that but it's like it's interesting me like even just a symbol, as of it when you go to other.

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Andy Miller III: Countries that were British colonies, you see some very similar.

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Andy Miller III: logos and similar imagery that's used some.

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Jason Swain: yeah so so we were always a little unique we still are, in some ways the one, the only thing that's really remained from that time period is as our flags yeah.

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Jason Swain: You got any other country in the world, the national flag might be in the hall but 90% of time it won't be not i've watched savage story marches from all over the world it's always just there, the army flag.

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Jason Swain: Right, but if you see one in America it's both.

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Andy Miller III: We go back to the podcasts that i've done with my brother, Dr Nathan Miller.

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Andy Miller III: where he he makes this a subject of his his dissertation where he talks about music and the way music incorporates and facilitates nationalism and he has a lot to say.

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Andy Miller III: about the flat use of the flag, so you can and even sociologically what happens with that, but go back to my podcast you can find it at my website for that again i'm with my friend.

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Andy Miller III: Major almost like Captain Jason swain and who serves at ashland Kentucky all right, we don't have too much longer, but I would really love for you can you give us like a short version.

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Andy Miller III: Of, then what happens at valley 10 so we have battling to comes in, he helps restore the groups in the 1880s, then we have this kind of like unified front this charismatic leader, he and his wife MOD but obviously they come into.

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Andy Miller III: They come into similar trouble, this is a structural issue and that's what more confronted as well, those more challenge, but what was that challenge, and then, how did that get resolved.

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Jason Swain: quickly balancing comes in, and he has given broad powers to do whatever it needs to be done, they reconcile in 1889 and all as well, they build a brand new beautiful.

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Jason Swain: headquarters, building on 14th street in New York building and even had a cannon on the top they fired at noon, I would love to have been there when that first.

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Andy Miller III: happened haha.

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and

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Jason Swain: They build rebuild and the army is growing and we booth comes finally first first visit it doesn't go that well we moved by this time was was was was kind of cranky and crabby kind of guy he was older and anyway doesn't go well and there's ideas that America has gotten to.

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Jason Swain: Use booth phrase Yankee doodle ISM has infected as infected the army in America, but he loves that he speaks to capacity crowds everywhere, he goes and.

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Jason Swain: it boils down to a family squabble really there are some structural issues that they still still dealt with, but there was really down to we move.

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Jason Swain: bramwell booth his son and burlington all had family squabbles as the awful family does.

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Jason Swain: And it gets to a head in 1896 they've been there they've been there 10 years by that point they want to stay they see the possibilities and that kind of thing they become American citizens they they live in New Jersey, they you know and so.

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Jason Swain: They almost lead a second rebellion away from the Salvation Army international, but there are so many people who remember the first one there's only 10 years previous that the officers want nothing to do with it.

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Right.

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Jason Swain: And they finally.

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Jason Swain: Leave.

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Jason Swain: We move comes from one more visit and there's a this happens, later on, and there's a great it's a great quote it says they meet they meet at a hotel.

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Jason Swain: No one knows what the what the meeting was about but it's you know we met we prayed and we parted forever that's the front, you know the phrase and that's the way it was balancing goes on the form another group called the volunteers were America still around.

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Jason Swain: And he is their first gen and will be so until he passes on in the 1940s his mom will take over and then their son will take over.

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Jason Swain: And then they change their structure, a little bit they drop all their military stuff early on in the 50s and they they're around they still grow, they grow, they do what they do and they celebrate that early those early days and you'll see pictures of them, if you look on the bottom.

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Jason Swain: you'll see pictures about, and you can notice their their CREST on there, you know that and they say where they came from the Salvation Army.

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Jason Swain: yeah, so there are there are American cousins.

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Jason Swain: To take, and they do what they do and.

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Jason Swain: You know, but they again they dropped a lot of their ecclesiastical stuff pretty early on and they're just now nonprofit.

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Andy Miller III: Right and they were their original name was the American Salvation Army is that right.

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Jason Swain: No, they were always volunteers of America.

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Andy Miller III: didn't they I thought they started, maybe I have this I thought they had a different title and then they there was a lawsuit but anyhow.

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Andy Miller III: So, like they had these concepts and now you know Alan Saturday, has a couple of articles that are really interesting, I think you know about them that, where he.

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Andy Miller III: He looks at like what's happening at these groups now, and he sees extremes that you would want to avoid and I thought that was you know you know.

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Andy Miller III: Decades ago that he wrote this so you have he says, you don't want to we don't want to be, just like the volunteers of America that become just a charity, but we also don't want to be just the.

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Andy Miller III: rescue workers American rescue workers either where they just kind of fold away into obscurity, but what do you think of that like that that those comparisons like as far as identity today for the examination.

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Jason Swain: yeah it's fascinating that the having all the advantages in 1880 for the Salvation Army of America should have should have just cleaned up and still been here today, yet within five years they're gone.

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Jason Swain: All the growth that happened any American rescue workers, you know, here we are.

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Jason Swain: 100 years later and they're they're not even I can't even sit cut say they're a shadow of the cells are three three places left.

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Jason Swain: yeah they're pretty much villain volunteers America are still around but they dropped all of their.

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Jason Swain: Religious stuff and they're just they're just a charity that that operates, you know around the country here and there, but they're there they're not seeing much growth at least you know they're not opening new offices what they have is what they have.

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yeah.

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Jason Swain: and other and others like that there's there was a progressive Salvation Army in the 1890s they there they never made very the last 10 years.

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Jason Swain: All these the American Salvation Army, you know you know lasted for a little while and they folded it have the back so it's interesting to me that the Salvation Army international you know coming in at that disadvantage in 1884 is what it is today in America.

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Jason Swain: and around the world and around the world.

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Jason Swain: You know call that spiritual blessing god's hand on us possible you know that's true or just that we stuck to our guns, we had we know we stay within our structure.

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Jason Swain: And, and we go from there, I was speaking someone recently, and we were talking about the Salvation Army and the mission.

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Jason Swain: And I said listen the missions never changed the methods have changed drastically, even in my time officer, the methods have changed, but the mission remains the same, and it was the it was the same in at.

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Jason Swain: It was the same in 1890 all the way through you know the times have changed and our methods have changed and the army has changed a great deal.

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Jason Swain: But we still serve people in the lowest strategies of society, all the way up.

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Jason Swain: To the Multi millionaire it doesn't matter to us where you come from.

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Jason Swain: We serve discrimination.

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Andy Miller III: yeah it's beautiful, there is, I mean i've been i've been one who's who's talked about.

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Andy Miller III: The challenges that we have with understanding our identity and wondering if there, there might be a time where I said just recently it's either accountability or division and I think that this is like well The reason I say that is not because, like.

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Andy Miller III: suggested that the corporation changes, but it what makes up a group an entity.

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Andy Miller III: Is it only based upon the things that we do, or how we're incorporated, or is it what we believe, and I think that that's where that's right I think that's what would make any change that would happen.

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Andy Miller III: My desire would be there wouldn't be any change I think it'd be very, very hard corporately to make that happen, but at the same time, I think that requires.

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Andy Miller III: leadership to to institute accountability like So if you just decided, you know what i'm going to you know start to have the Salvation Army and actually not believe in.

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Andy Miller III: The trinity anymore well that's moving away from the mission and that's I think that that's the heart of what i've been saying, and the contemporary application is when you move away from the mission that's where we get in trouble.

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Jason Swain: yeah my one my one critique would would be that we have got to stop I might get in trouble for this, we might we've got to stop trying to be like other churches.

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Jason Swain: that's that's where we've gotten to a lot of trouble not i'm not talking doctrinally and i'm not talking just just, we need to be who we are.

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Jason Swain: And I see so many people saying oh yeah, but they do, they got 1000 people and they do all this stuff and they there they do this they do that and i'm like.

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Jason Swain: Okay that's them, why do we want to be like them.

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Jason Swain: You know, other than is it just about numbers, you know, or you know, let us less, and so there are people like Oh, we got to drop all the uniforms and drop all the terminology and i'm like nope, we need to go the other way.

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Jason Swain: You know and go back to how we used to talk about things if there wasn't a phrase for it, we created one.

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Jason Swain: You know, you know and it's so funny I was talking to a friend of mine about tithes and offerings you know.

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Jason Swain: He says, what do you call this, and so I wish armies and tithes and offerings he said he said no, no, no, no, you guys got her phrase, I said oh.

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Jason Swain: I said the envelope is your cartridge and you when you throw it in the offering plate it's it's firing your cartridge he was like so that's so that's so cool I wish we would say stuff like that you know and i'm like.

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Jason Swain: Anyway, that's my.

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Jason Swain: One I think I think.

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Jason Swain: I just.

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Andy Miller III: had time to debate, necessarily, but I think like my challenges like when you get to a place where you always have to say i'm the corps officer, which is like being a pastor or like i've noticed a lot of like.

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Andy Miller III: social media from HQ HQ will say things like often it's putting things in parentheses.

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Andy Miller III: it's like.

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Andy Miller III: We really if we're having to put things in parentheses, maybe we've lost the.

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Andy Miller III: opportunity to really create a new way of thinking about things because we're let's just let's just say what if, but you and I, maybe we can have a podcast about that some other time I don't disagree with.

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Andy Miller III: With leaning into our heritage and leaning into what we have in certainly your book has done that, for us really in a helpful way and look I just recommend people to take some time to read it you'll see that it's really well documented.

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Andy Miller III: Like he did his research he had that time during Kobe to look into this and it is important to see, I think, and I know we agree on this Jason like how God has led.

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Andy Miller III: The institution that you and I have been a part of you know, for so long.

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Andy Miller III: And how it also should be encouraging the other movements to other movements that we believe the Holy spirit's active in is that if God the Holy Spirit is at work, you know there.

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Andy Miller III: He uses messed up people uses controversies and even admit stuff like really challenging times a God is at work, so any any last thing you want to say Jason.

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Jason Swain: No, I you know by the book I get nothing out of it, so you know I would I would love to get a note that said, we have to do a second printing that would be awesome to me but.

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Jason Swain: You know, it is it's an easy read you can go through it it's a friend of mine said it's fast moving, just like the early days in the army and that's exactly true, we were growing beyond what we even knew about at the time and.

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Jason Swain: read it and understood you know you know send me a note and ask me questions i'll try to try to answer them as best I can.

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Andy Miller III: yeah invite Jason into come into you could just do it via zoom or you could invite them to fly in and make a presentation to.

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Andy Miller III: An advisory board or a core youth group or.

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Andy Miller III: Any I think it's just a fascinating story, we might as well, tell this even it's a little it kind of show some of our words you know but it's worth sharing it and have them come in and share I think it'd be a great thing.

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Andy Miller III: Jason thanks so much for your time oh I forgot the morning story question what's more to the story of Jason.

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Jason Swain: I don't know I I serve as a Salvation Army officer.

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Andy Miller III: So.

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Jason Swain: I don't I don't know.

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Andy Miller III: what's something you like to do what's something that people don't generally i'm working on i'm working on a few other things, but my time is really taken up here at my core.

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Jason Swain: Doing corps officer duties as i'm not married, so I do everything here myself.

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Jason Swain: yeah and.

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Jason Swain: I love history, so I not only army history, I love I love American history so i'm I get involved with some some.

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Jason Swain: Here in this area Ohio its Ohio Kentucky West Virginia pioneer days kind of thing.

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Andy Miller III: There it is.

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Jason Swain: Which are which are fun and.

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Andy Miller III: You dress up.

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Jason Swain: I do sometimes and, if you look at my Facebook page you'll see me at mount Vernon where I served as a volunteer for a couple years so and still do.

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Andy Miller III: You play a character.

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Jason Swain: No, no, I was just I was just a general general person help help her we would say you know helper the official terms way Finder I just love that I would just stand on the corner and point people to the right direction, you know and that kind of thing.

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Jason Swain: But I enjoyed it, it was fun, it was something out of my comfort zone to a point, and I miss it a lot but i'm getting involved in some stuff around the area with a little bit different time frame, but it's still kind of fun.

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Andy Miller III: that's great well Jason thanks so much for your time, it means a lot to me.

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Andy Miller III: Thanks for sharing the book and remember you can get your copy so check that out with all those ways I offered earlier, where you can share.

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Andy Miller III: A link, you can make a comment or you can join our email list, and you can win an opportunity, you can get an opportunity to win a copy thanks so much Jason God bless you.

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Jason Swain: All right, thank you really you.