Visions for the Salvation Army Part One with Christina Tyson
May 11 2023
Three denominations that I care deeply about are going through difficult moments in their history: The Salvation Army, the Church of the Nazarene, and the United Methodist Church. This summer I am bringing interviews with conservative and progressive voices from each denomination. I am doing this individually with the hope of producing clarity. I am not interested in a debate. Each side will be asked the same questions.
Salvation Army: Christina Tyson and Willis Howell
Church of the Nazarene: Thomas Oord and Brian Powell
United Methodist Church: Adam Hamilton and Rob Renfroe
This week we’re hearing from Christina Tyson, Corps Officer of the Wellington South Corps and Newtown Centre.
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Welcome to the more to the story, Podcast. I am so glad that you have come along. Look, we have a great series that is starting today. Many of the denominations that I'm. In connection with are in a interesting period in their life.
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Andy Miller III: That is the Salvation Army, the Church of Nazarene and the United Methodist Church and Global Methodist Church. So through this summer, starting today we will have a series of interviews that will be with people from variety of perspectives in those nominations. So we'll have a progressive voice and a conservative voice. Now, we might not like those terms exactly, but I think they get us to point of what we're trying to say. So today we start that conversation because there's a very important event happening in the life of the Salvation.
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where there is an event that will happen. The High Council is called. I know those of you outside the savage army think that sounds absolutely crazy. But
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Andy Miller III: well, maybe it is. It sounds a little crazy because it is a little crazy, but nevertheless it's happening, and the International Leader of the Salvation Army is elected. And so for the next 2 weeks we will have a progressive voice and a conservative voice. Come on and answer the exact same 10 questions about the future of that denomination. Then we're going to have that with the Church and Nazarene a little later in the month of May, and then in June or July, we'll have the same thing with voices from the United Methodist Church about the future of those denominations.
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and how we arrive at that future. So my goal in these interviews is simply to let these folks speak themselves. Now I will ask questions for clarity, and those are. Some of you will anticipate that.
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Andy Miller III: Obviously, I come from a conservative evangelical perspective, and you might want me to bait them hard or to win some points, but that's not my goal today. So just to give you that heads up, i'm so thankful for everybody who supports some more to this story Podcast, and who have joined, who has joined my email list.
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Andy Miller III: Secondly, this broadcast is brought to you by Wesley Biblical Seminary, where we are developing trusted leaders to serve faithful churches, and we do that through a host of degree programs. We have bachelor's masters in doctoral degrees, and we also have a new program for a course of study for those who are in the Global Methodist Church. This is exciting time. We have at this point. When I'm. Recording this on May ninth, we have more than 110 students who've already signed up for that program. So we're excited about that
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Andy Miller III: Dot Com. And you can find a link to that in my show. It's. And finally i'm. We just want to let people know that there is a resource available called Contender. Again, on my website you can find this. It is a 6 week study on the Book of Jude more than 6 h of content there. Discussion guides. You can sign up for that, and you can find a link for that at my site under courses. All right.
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Andy Miller III: I'm. Now very excited to welcome into the podcast Major Christina Tyson, who serves as the core officer of the Wellington South core in New Zealand in the past. She's also served as a. W. The editor of the War Cry. She's been a communications director. She's also served
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on, and in Australia, and I am delighted, Christina, to welcome you to the podcast. Thanks for coming on.
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Christina Tyson: Thanks, Andy, thanks. It's good to be here a little scary, but good to be here.
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Christina Tyson: No, it means so much to me. I have really wanted to have I? Well, I have had some conversations. I had a conversation with you all myself. I reached out to folks in the included website.
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Andy Miller III: and I also reach out to the progressive Salvationist website, and they were. They were very kind, the Progressive say salvation side to respond to me and it, and give me your name, and that that you are willing, and that's after. A year ago. I tried then, and I didn't get an answer now
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Andy Miller III: i'll just just to say i'm very engaged in thisavis charm. I'm a six-generation salvationist but I am not attending a call right now. I just want people to know that at the outset, and I i'm going to be speak so the Conservative isn't going to be me. I'm just going to be the Interviewer here trying to get some clarity. But thank you so much for being willing to come and represent that this prospect perspective, and I know progressive might not be the term that might be used in New Zealand. But you've been a part of the
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Andy Miller III: salvos for an inclusive church. Other things I I mean. I can see you have a PIN, a rainbow flag PIN on so like it
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Christina Tyson: is. Do you understand where we're going? Is okay. If I use the word progressive from time to time. Yeah, no, that's that's fine. It's probably not something. I I don't think of myself as progressive. I think it's like anything. It's a little subjective and loaded, and it's to entrench
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Christina Tyson: barriers and boundaries and stop dialogue. But it is a shortcut cut, and to understanding where we might come from, and
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Christina Tyson: I suppose for me it's it's more of a personal thing over many over many years, and that's probably how it is for a lot of people. And so I just find myself living out. I guess my officership, my salvationism
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Christina Tyson: with certain flavors to it. So yeah. But thanks for listening. I know it is hard, and it's good to get in the room and
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Christina Tyson: discuss these things, and hopefully without too much angst. But it's great. Yeah, I think so. And I think just the nature of our emailing and our conversation ahead of this call. I think that that will be the case. Just know, like I, if I I' not, it's not my intention to offend. I just want to get clarity, and I want that to be available, and I do. I'll just flatly say, I hope this is something that's useful to people who'll be participating in the High Council like that. There'll be the leaders who a goal there, and who'll be influenced by this, will have a conservative voice represented next week as well.
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Andy Miller III: and so I I think it's just. It's helpful to see what the differences are, and then people might be able to make better decisions going forward. So we have the same 10 questions for both groups.
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Christina Tyson: the context of being a New Zealander being in New Zealand, having also trained in the salvation. I mean Australia. So it's some time over there as well. But it will be reflective of also my world view, and where I set, you know globally. So I realized that obviously on even my
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Christina Tyson: progressive is a New Zealand progressive as opposed to African or Japanese or Americans like I got you, and and the same thing is true, like I, we don't we there isn't necessarily like an incorporated bylaws of the included group
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Andy Miller III: there isn't the same. Sorry I know we know you're not speaking on behalf of all people who might be term progressive or inclusive, or that so this is just Andy and Christine that talking here. But I think we'll get get close based upon what you've published in the past and the things that you support. Okay.
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Christina Tyson: Is there anything else you want to say before we get started.
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Andy Miller III: Yeah, I just disclaim her. I'm not speaking for my territory. It's private views. There you go. Absolutely
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Andy Miller III: all right. Well, Christina, the first thing I want to ask is about the connected to the savage Army's first article of faith.
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Andy Miller III: And so what role this Scripture play in the life of the salvation is. And do you believe there is a divine rule that speaks universally to the beliefs, values, and practices of people across generations and cultures.
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Christina Tyson: Yeah, Well, absolutely. I mean. So I've got my falling apart by all here. That which I've had to put another cover on, because it's just written in and scribbled, and and I
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Christina Tyson: I
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Christina Tyson: probably raised a little in the navigators since the Bible study. We're very early on, you know. They takes you to
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Christina Tyson: to just listen for the god as you read, and to write and scribble, and allow to speak to so obviously. You know I through Timothy 3, 16. All Scripture is inspired by God, and useful for teaching, reviewing, correcting, and training and righteousness, so that the Scriptures is really important.
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Christina Tyson: But along with that, I think there's also that sense of sustenance that you gain from the Word of God. You know greater than honey, and so so that's there. And even in our church, which is a fairly
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Christina Tyson: so we actually.
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Christina Tyson: I should explain where we are. So I am a new town, Wellington, which is a city in New Zealand's capital city, you know, cosmopolitan suburb, and the center that we based in has a core, but on the same footprint
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Christina Tyson: as a alcohol and drug rehab centered as an early childhood center. There is a welfare for food. There's a drop in center that, you know, probably has a 100 people a day through a. And so the Church is one aspect of the sort of integrated Mission center.
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Christina Tyson: So over the last couple of years we've encouraged you Christians to get involved in the navigators to 7 series.
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Christina Tyson: which we're calling a disciples boot camp. And along with that we are seeing what it means for people to really come under the Word of God and to be exposed to that. And so, yeah. So there's no doubt
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Christina Tyson: that the Bible does speak to all people is as as a divine role. However, I suppose the challenges that the Bible Doesn't speak about all the challenges we face in life.
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Christina Tyson: you know. So you're not going to look up and see what is the Bible say about climate change? Per, Say, you know you're not going to look up and see what it is that say about Birth Control. You know all of those sorts of things. So
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Christina Tyson: it's very difficult, and Eric's a Jesus of the Scriptures
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Christina Tyson: to know how to really get to
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Christina Tyson: the bits that are gonna help us to live. So, for example, you know, even when you talk about wash of them snow in New Zealand we have snow, so that makes sense. But if you talked about, you know the snow white shape in New Zealand they are white, but in Australia. They're sort of a dirty brown color.
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Christina Tyson: So you know, we talk about the bread of Life and in China it's the right of life, You know, all of those sorts of things. And so we all know, and I guess there is a progressive
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Christina Tyson: cause. I'll we that label today as a progressive. We know that the modern understandings of some to the not the same as the original one. So for me as a female, who, in a very patriarchal rating of the Scriptures
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Christina Tyson: could find to yourself. Push to the margins, and you know I told to keep my head covered, not under just a bonnet, but you know.
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Christina Tyson: under under something, and to be quiet in church those sorts of things. If I was to take the Bible. I guess literally, then my life would look very, very different today than it does.
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Christina Tyson: So I suppose that's one of the things. Is that what you sort of meaning that? How do you? How do you really contextualize? But also how do you bring it up to date where we are now?
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Christina Tyson: About things that aren't covered on the Scripture in the same way.
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Andy Miller III: Yeah, that's helpful. And and so there is. Is there any? Are there things that do cross culture across generation
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Andy Miller III: that do have the same applicable meeting, and and obviously like one of the most contentious issues related to human sexuality. So like is that just something in in your view that's outdated? It needs to be updated.
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Christina Tyson: I don't think it's so much outdated because I don't know that anything in Scripture, because it is a historical book as much as it is a divine and supernatural book. So I don't think i'd ever want to say it's outdated.
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Christina Tyson: It's just that some some things, maybe on a trajectory where the way that we interpret the script to the themes that we see, and it help us to understand how to make a decision on how to live our lives
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Christina Tyson: faithfully under God today. but other things very different, you know. So in the in the ancient world, you know, purity was about being kept separate, you know, keeping things separate from each other. Whether it was
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Christina Tyson: erez agmoni, you know items or people, even things like, you know, when it was a a woman's time of the month that she should keep herself separate. You know all of those sorts of things 250.
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Christina Tyson: Well, we understand that that made sense, and perhaps a tribal system. and the world as it was with us.
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Christina Tyson: particularly patriarchal order.
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Christina Tyson: But we wouldn't try to apply that today.
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Christina Tyson: We can say, even in recent terms, how Scriptures have been used to justify some things that now we would find abhorrent, you know. So slavery and apartheid, and some of those sorts of things the death penalty, I suppose. Once you could have gone to Scripture and see if this is appropriate now you would go. It's a little bit more nuanced than that.
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Christina Tyson: even in in this country, you know, even you have to be very careful as to what harm and abuse can you
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Christina Tyson: cause
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Christina Tyson: while well intentioned, but by lifting some Scriptures, maybe out of context in or not bringing them into today's world? So a really good example in this country is. Some years ago
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Christina Tyson: there was a move to criminalize
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Christina Tyson: harsh abuse, or, you know, really difficult physical violence of parents on their children.
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Christina Tyson: on any, you know, on any child. But it was related a lot to children, and at that time it means that
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Christina Tyson: some of the
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Christina Tyson: there was a some more and reverend, who took it upon himself to
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Christina Tyson: help people to understand that the past you know the passage about spear, the rod, and spoil the child was not a license to pick up a belt.
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Christina Tyson: and you know best your child
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Christina Tyson: well. Obviously, God's word was never intended to give that license, particularly to a modern parent.
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Christina Tyson: But it did mean that, you know there was an an apologetic work, almost, that had to be done
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Christina Tyson: by this rebrand to help his community understand that God did not want them to, you know. Pick up a a shoe or a belt, or something to punish their children, and so you could take a verse.
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Christina Tyson: and you could use it as a weapon, and I suppose some of the Scriptural ones. You know that the so called club of verses that have been used against. Yeah. And Lesbian people are probably good examples of that, you know. Does God want us to? With a nice Scripture?
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Christina Tyson: We do, and people have always through history. But even I suppose the it's the plain read meaning of the text, I guess, is what i'm getting to that Sometimes
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Christina Tyson: the plain reading of a text is not going to be sufficient
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Christina Tyson: like it's interesting for me when I was probably a teenager, and I would have read passages, and you know about you know women exchanging natural relations with each other that sort of one. When I was younger I would have gone All that's clearly about Lesbian relationships.
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Christina Tyson: but it's interesting to me. You know. Recently I read that for the first 4
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Christina Tyson: for centuries, most commentators, when they read that text would have assumed that it was
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Christina Tyson: so Trigger word here, maybe, but they would have assumed that it was more about
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Christina Tyson: women having 6 with their husband, but with I know 6, you know, so I would never have known that.
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Christina Tyson: and nothing in my faith. Tradition would have helped me to understand it.
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Christina Tyson: I suppose Sodom and Sodom and Gomorrah is another classic example, you know. I would have grown up thinking that so I was destroyed for the
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Christina Tyson: the son of homosexuality. And of course, even the Old Testament tells you it's within a in hospitality to people, and so it's more complicated than I think.
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Christina Tyson: When I grew up in just accepted what I was told, you know, in the Salvation Army at the time. I think it maybe even being checked. Your book, you know, chosen to be a soldier, and and so on. There was little tiny paragraphs covering this because it was such a given.
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Christina Tyson: and and now I realize it's maybe not
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Christina Tyson: as much of a given.
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Christina Tyson: and this is a hard exercise, and it's been a hard for me.
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Andy Miller III: Well, it's good, I mean, and I've here. Here's some of that, and I think some of my audience might be saying, Andy, I know I've heard you talk about this before, so why don't you go in and go after those specific points. Well, I'm not going to do that, and I really appreciate you saying that. And I,
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Andy Miller III: I'll say I do have some podcasts that I've talked about some of those areas, particularly like the the ones that you've mentioned, and I have Robert Cagnan coming on my podcast later summer. So hold on, folks, if you're interested in a response to that. But thanks, Christina, for sharing that. Let me get one quick. Follow up.
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Christina Tyson: Are you comfortable with the first article of faith? Do you think that that needs to be changed?
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Christina Tyson: Yeah, i'm entirely comfortable with that? I think it's. It's not something that i'm waited to like a a role that i'm in living in anxiousness about
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Christina Tyson: to me. It's it's a bedrock.
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Christina Tyson: and it's understood particularly in a Wesleyan perspective. It's understood also, with some other things, some reason, some experience.
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Christina Tyson: all of those sort of things. I think, if it's, if the first doctrine of the savage number is not used
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Christina Tyson: to constrain and and beat up people, and so probably that's how I look at it is through the Max and the first do no harm.
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Christina Tyson: and that's how I probably approached Scripture. You know I love God, love others is probably more of a guiding role that I I overlay
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Andy Miller III: Gotcha that comes first. So in general, I'll just say quickly, like the the way I think about the divine rule is through the Protestant tradition, thinking of it as a a canon of belief. It's the norm that norms all other norms, and so it's also an interpretive
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Andy Miller III: principle to that guides our reading, so that the things that the Church has taught and the things that have been consist consistently affirmed in Scripture
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Andy Miller III: are things that are reliable, and that we must like I' here to in this time. So that's great. Thank you for giving me that clear answer. So number 2,
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Andy Miller III: all right, and I. This is one that I changed out. I'm. Curious what you think, particularly as we're headed to this important time with the High Council and the nature of governance in the savage army, and may maybe I was like if we could make this a little shorter, just we can get the other questions. What what do you think. Is there anything that needs to change about the governance structure of the Salvation Army?
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Christina Tyson: I suppose, in recent years, so probably since General Andre Cox, when we board on the accountability movement.
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Christina Tyson: So governance has really been something that the Salvation Army has had to be really
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Christina Tyson: looking at. Improving is other organizations. So for me, I guess, Governance. I'm very comfortable with where the army is going, but I don't imagine it's an easy journey
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Christina Tyson: for for everybody, and it's not even been easy for us here, either. We're a hierarchical, autocratic
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Christina Tyson: ere
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Christina Tyson: really want to be in a collaborative leadership style. And so governance, I think, made sense when you imagine that there was, I suppose, that heroic leader who Roden, who told everyone else what to do, and there was lots of saluting, you know, and you just can't do that these days. Your reputation is
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Christina Tyson: is so fraught that if someone comes in and abuses that.
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Christina Tyson: then you know, you'll be picking up the pieces, and your mission will be undermined. So really for me, Governance, I suppose, simply is about guarding our mission, and so that's something that any organization, but also any church needs to be. It's also about making sure that the main thing stays the main thing, and I think it's a challenge for the Salvation Army
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Christina Tyson: is a large social service enterprise as well with different roles, like so, for example, in New Zealand, and I think also in Denmark, which is quite similar. You can often do. You can speak truth to power, and it's accepted to do that, and it won't. Put your funding at risk.
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Christina Tyson: and it won't. Put your churches at risk.
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Christina Tyson: Obviously, in France you have to have a very separate, you know church and bike, Church and State enshrined in law in the in the States, you know. I understand you have to be really careful in that as well. And so i'm. Just again the governance of different countries with all those you know.
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Christina Tyson: things that are quite difficult. So I think
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Christina Tyson: Christianity these days we would know, and Covid is added to this. You know the christened up is gone, and
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Christina Tyson: and there's a new sense of what we're doing inside. This is God. Well, so I don't think we're in a stage of circle. The wagons, you know. Retreat, retreat, panic. This is the hardest time to be a Christian, or the hardest time to be in ministry. It's not like that.
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Christina Tyson: But we we do need to change and move on a mission, and I and even the governance might sound a bit boring and controlling
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Christina Tyson: it. It can be really powerful. So I i'm quite happy about the changes.
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Andy Miller III: Yeah. Great. So like the the accountability movement and all that type of thing. Okay, good third question, and this comes right from our articles of faith. It's how i'm trying to article so. Faith.
00:22:09.520 --> 00:22:14.150
Andy Miller III: what do you see as the necessary conditions of salvation
00:22:15.070 --> 00:22:22.610
Christina Tyson: cool. So again we are we administering now there's a lot of people who have who are coming to find
00:22:22.910 --> 00:22:37.460
Christina Tyson: which is really awesome, but they're coming. Not in the way that I guess people used to where you'd go. Someone up the front wall do a a good emotive presentation of the of the Gospel, You know the Billy Graham sort of thing, and we all sing in the K. Of a.
00:22:37.500 --> 00:22:54.520
Christina Tyson: And then people will flock to make a decision. So it's very much a journey and a process now, and it's really hard to even tell where someone has. I suppose, in the old days you would have counted your decision. It's hard to know when people put their faith in Jesus.
00:22:54.540 --> 00:22:56.000
Christina Tyson: you just eventually
00:22:56.150 --> 00:23:04.350
Christina Tyson: discover gloriously that they have perhaps through testimony. So I suppose for me that the conditions that are necessary first of all to go as well.
00:23:04.710 --> 00:23:10.000
Christina Tyson: because salvation cannot happen outside of that salvation is not
00:23:10.060 --> 00:23:28.880
Christina Tyson: while we cooperate, and it's a partnership, and we we ask for that gift. It's still not in our control to make it have happened in the first place, so it's love and grace. I think our part is to be sensitive to the awareness of a longing for God. You know, as Augustine said, you know that
00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:32.370
Christina Tyson: We are hungry, you know.
00:23:32.660 --> 00:23:39.670
Christina Tyson: and that is a challenge for people today. The busyness of life, the pace of life. And this seems to be just a chronic
00:23:40.170 --> 00:23:57.700
Christina Tyson: anxiety around the world. This is a difficult time, you know. We've hit Covid. We've got wars we've got, you know, in New Zealand. There's a lot of environmental challenges. Flooding people are squeezed financially. We've got
00:23:57.700 --> 00:24:00.920
Christina Tyson: issues of justice around our indigenous people.
00:24:01.820 --> 00:24:08.380
Christina Tyson: There's a lot of poverty and hardship, and so in that in that sense of anxiety. How do you?
00:24:08.600 --> 00:24:11.710
Christina Tyson: How do you really sense that? What you need?
00:24:11.830 --> 00:24:18.000
Christina Tyson: God? How do you? How do you come to that awareness that you you really.
00:24:18.070 --> 00:24:35.770
Andy Miller III: you know you're not going to be taken out of all the misery of life. But you need that impound that you need that relationship of God. So let me jump in real quick. I haven't heard. I'm just curious like this savage from his articles of faith, or say we believe it repentance towards God, faith, and our Lord Jesus Christ, and regeneration by the Holy Spirit necessary is repentance needed for salvation?
00:24:35.910 --> 00:24:41.330
Christina Tyson: Yeah, I think it is because what to me repentance, and this is the thing that I can't. If it was
00:24:41.670 --> 00:24:58.820
Christina Tyson: Brendan Manning, or or frequently, who used to say that thing, there is nothing I can do. There is nothing I can do. There is nothing I can do. There is nothing I can do. There is one thing we can do, and that is to come humbly before God and repent to say actually, my orientation of my life has been this way.
00:24:58.950 --> 00:25:03.650
Christina Tyson: You know whether that's been, you know the sort of sin that will put you in prison, or you.
00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:17.620
Christina Tyson: or cut off your family, or whatever, or whether it's just that son of selfishness that says, I am God in my own life, and I don't need you. But at some point that repentance, the orientation that face towards God
00:25:17.730 --> 00:25:19.920
Christina Tyson: has to happen, and it has to cause
00:25:20.010 --> 00:25:23.950
Christina Tyson: salvation is relationship. So if we're going that way.
00:25:24.080 --> 00:25:29.380
Christina Tyson: the person with who wants and longs and we need to have a relationship with is
00:25:29.390 --> 00:25:32.040
Christina Tyson: here. you know it's just
00:25:32.300 --> 00:25:41.590
Christina Tyson: impossible. And so to me that is the thing. So repentance for me is not like, you know. Lash yourself, or list it all off.
00:25:41.840 --> 00:25:52.010
Christina Tyson: although that may be helpful. But it is saying I need to reorient. I need to turn. I need to repent. I need to say God, I cannot do this on my own.
00:25:53.050 --> 00:26:01.950
Andy Miller III: Is there a repentance from not just like our our disposition, but from sin? Is sin or reality something that we need to repent of.
00:26:02.090 --> 00:26:15.200
Christina Tyson: Well, I suppose this takes us to the whole total depravity doctrine. Sure. Yeah, I'm glad that that, too. Yeah. So I suppose when you, when you're talking about, continue it's a doctor of 9 as well talks about sure, continued obedient faith.
00:26:15.200 --> 00:26:22.810
Andy Miller III: Yeah. Yeah. And we know I was working in salvation only communications for a while. I remember a person who wasn't from the Salvation Army. He taught a Bible college
00:26:22.910 --> 00:26:32.280
Christina Tyson: in the north island of New Zealand, and he rang me, and he said, what is it with your Salvation Army people? I've got some salvation. I'm. A young people who are doing my Bible study course
00:26:32.360 --> 00:26:42.400
Christina Tyson: they do not seem to. They seem to have, and he did say anxiety, he said. They seem to have this constant state of anxiety that they may not remain saved.
00:26:42.440 --> 00:26:57.080
Christina Tyson: which he tied to the doctrine. You know, I continued, obedient faith is necessary, and he said, why do they not have an assurance or so. So so to the listeners out there, i'd love it if someone would pick up this
00:26:57.340 --> 00:27:00.710
Christina Tyson: and write something that just reassures and teaches
00:27:01.010 --> 00:27:20.130
Christina Tyson: Salvationist people that this this doctrine is not meaning that you do have to be worried, you know. Do I have to repent? Do I have to repent. You know, as God you know about to beat up on me will, I know, because that's not that's not what that is about. But I suppose the doctrine of total depravity, which is our angriest sounding doctrine.
00:27:20.340 --> 00:27:37.010
Christina Tyson: and you know we have that. So if I walked out the door of the room i'm in here, which is our pre room, and if I turn right i'll go down, and there's a huge poster on the wall behind glass, with all of our doctrines. And so we have a lot of people through our center who someone sometimes stand there that
00:27:37.010 --> 00:27:40.480
Christina Tyson: the Holiness Table is in front of it, because they all is multi
00:27:40.950 --> 00:27:45.240
Christina Tyson: functioning inside the holiness tables, actually out on the corridor with the doctrine.
00:27:45.350 --> 00:27:47.590
Christina Tyson: and so that one's a bit of a scary
00:27:48.030 --> 00:27:58.060
Christina Tyson: one. The best podcast I heard on this is on the included.com website under Resources, and it's an interview between
00:27:58.090 --> 00:28:08.450
Christina Tyson: Australians. The Reverend Dr. Glen O'brien in Major Corrina Wood, and they looked at exploring doctrine and Scripture for an affirming approach.
00:28:08.560 --> 00:28:22.020
Christina Tyson: But it was the first time I had heard the doctrine of total depravity spoken about in a really positive way, and it's absolutely in the last 12 months transformed my view of there and my view of salvation. I suppose.
00:28:22.070 --> 00:28:27.490
Christina Tyson: because it's that we all experience the consequence of our sinful nature.
00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:36.240
Christina Tyson: We flawed, you know we are in disharmony, but we are not abandoned, and so
00:28:36.650 --> 00:28:45.840
Christina Tyson: So I think you know even that thing about anxiety, continued obedient faith. It is just that gratitude and salvation to be able to know that you rest in God, and if you have your home and God again.
00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:50.110
Christina Tyson: But I don't know if that makes sense, i'm not. I don't consider myself a theologian.
00:28:50.190 --> 00:28:55.060
Christina Tyson: but it was really good for me, because I've always avoided some of those thinking.
00:28:55.260 --> 00:28:56.670
Christina Tyson: And yeah, yeah.
00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:20.860
Andy Miller III: people are often quick to say they don't like that one like that. Dr. If it we believe our our first parents were created in this state of innocence, but by their disobedience they lost our period and happiness, and that consequence of their fall, all men, and become centers totally different. I'm just saying this, my totally totally braved, and as such are justly exposed to the wrath of God. Some people are are uneasy with the concept of their being
00:29:20.860 --> 00:29:31.770
Andy Miller III: the gods wrath and God's love being 2 sides of the same coin. And so yeah, you're right. It is tied together with you cannot. I mean, you cannot have holiness.
00:29:31.870 --> 00:29:36.650
Christina Tyson: You cannot have an easy god who just looks the other way we would not accept that. And so
00:29:36.940 --> 00:29:52.970
Christina Tyson: that's what. When you talk about our doctrines, I just think is the foundation of what we believe is the story, you know, is that book Salvation story in the Salvation Army, the the Handbook of do from 2 for our current one, and it was trying to get get get across that sense of
00:29:53.300 --> 00:30:00.850
Christina Tyson: the score. Wonderful redeem to the story, and that's what I think we say is that we are pretty in New Zealand. We have this. We called it.
00:30:01.060 --> 00:30:09.090
Christina Tyson: which pretty mean, just broken stuffed. You know we we are not sufficient in our own.
00:30:09.170 --> 00:30:12.950
Christina Tyson: and and that's why God says it's okay, because you don't have to go it.
00:30:14.460 --> 00:30:25.030
Christina Tyson: But you don't want to stay in it, and you don't want to stay in that horrible side of going. Oh, my! I'm just i'm well with my honest and I you know, some 51 when I was a kid was my favorite Pre. You know
00:30:25.230 --> 00:30:39.550
Christina Tyson: for me a clean heart. And years ago I went to a youth conference, and there was a Australian teacher there, and she had this t-shirt that was about. It was really dirty, and she said, When you're wearing something, it's dirty. You don't care how much do it.
00:30:39.760 --> 00:30:47.750
Christina Tyson: It's on it. But when you wear something clean. You know, when you're aware that you're pure before God, that you're forgiven, and you take care with how you love your life.
00:30:47.900 --> 00:30:51.660
Christina Tyson: which I guess is where holiness comes into. It's a much tapestry.
00:30:52.540 --> 00:31:05.280
Andy Miller III: So i'm interested in that while we're thinking about the articles of faith, and then our final one is often so. If people object to the fifth article faith, then they sometimes object to many words in the final article, Faith, the eleventh.
00:31:05.280 --> 00:31:21.330
Andy Miller III: So i'm just curious just in saying in clear terms that so all my audience, not just those in this. How we sham, we all understand a from your seat. Is there a heaven in a hell? And how does that inform if there is, or isn't is there that inform the mission of the Celebration Army?
00:31:21.750 --> 00:31:30.510
Christina Tyson: So I I don't know. Honestly, I don't. I don't you don't know. Yeah, yeah, I appreciate you saying that it's really unclear. So is there a hell?
00:31:30.620 --> 00:31:32.550
Christina Tyson: Well, there's a little. There, there, certainly.
00:31:32.740 --> 00:31:38.690
Christina Tyson: How on earth you know? And so I guess, because I don't know i'm more occupied
00:31:38.750 --> 00:31:49.800
Christina Tyson: and doing what I can. You know we have Williams booths, and on rescue the perishing and church the other Sunday, just helping people to understand where we come from. and is that Fanny Crosby.
00:31:49.840 --> 00:32:05.840
Christina Tyson: the rescue of parishing or no, not the song we had. That is an amazing video, you know, vision of people when they say, you know, right in Jesus and the water sign, come down and help me and and everyone else so busy enjoying themselves, you know.
00:32:06.050 --> 00:32:08.460
Christina Tyson: singing their songs and praying their prayers.
00:32:08.590 --> 00:32:16.130
Christina Tyson: Well, Jesus is saying, come down into this hell on earth, really, and help me, and I think that's what it is. Heaven.
00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:22.250
Christina Tyson: Sometimes I get a taste of that now. But all I know is, it's a mystery, and I won't know.
00:32:22.300 --> 00:32:27.300
Christina Tyson: Years ago I heard a a type in the olden days when they were.
00:32:27.360 --> 00:32:36.620
Christina Tyson: and there was a tight library, and I remember hearing the story of someone who went into. I think it was a morgue. They were a reporter, and they went into a Morgan, New York, and there were lots of
00:32:36.920 --> 00:32:44.210
Christina Tyson: lots of bodies people who had died from drag out overdose, and I don't know if this is a true story, but it it was a nice thing on the thing.
00:32:44.230 --> 00:32:47.980
Christina Tyson: on the on the type. And as he was standing there, who this
00:32:48.110 --> 00:33:02.950
Christina Tyson: you know, voice that said, Look around. This is my trophy room, this sort of arrogant whisper that he took to be a demon. All the devil, you know. Look around that this what you see here is my trophy runs lives that have been wrecked. You know these lives that have been lost.
00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:06.610
Christina Tyson: and and I think as a maybe I was.
00:33:06.630 --> 00:33:25.580
Christina Tyson: but it really galvanized me to go. There is a this is the hell in heaven thing. There is a spiritual battle, and we we want to be on the winning side. And then, when we're on the winning side, we it's hard, it's hard because it is a battle. So people in our church
00:33:25.580 --> 00:33:30.050
Christina Tyson: will often give their testimony, or we'll ask them to share about
00:33:30.110 --> 00:33:37.370
Christina Tyson: Jesus in their life. And when they do, we say to them. You need to be really careful now, because our experience every time someone gets a testimony
00:33:37.530 --> 00:33:48.390
Christina Tyson: is that life gets really hard and there is a spiritual attack. So heaven and hell is where we're living now, and on the other side of glory we
00:33:48.970 --> 00:33:51.040
Christina Tyson: i'm hoping.
00:33:51.420 --> 00:33:55.950
Christina Tyson: i'm, hoping that I sort of forget about some of the Missouri of the hell of this.
00:33:55.980 --> 00:34:07.240
Andy Miller III: you know. So, just to be clear, I think this is this is really helpful. If so, like that heaven and hell not quite sure about it. But there is a kind of a it equal. Equivocates like, Take that, taking that word
00:34:07.240 --> 00:34:19.159
Christina Tyson: hell, and saying, Well, it's kind of like bad things in life now, and there's good things in life now, and we need to work through it. But there is no E. Ch. You're not sure.
00:34:19.159 --> 00:34:32.210
Christina Tyson: So to me. If I was God, then I guess i'd be going well. I don't want anyone to suffer eternally, but then also just suffer internally, as surely to miss out on the opportunity of being eternally with God, so
00:34:32.260 --> 00:34:47.040
Christina Tyson: that to me that would be hell. So so I again. There is a there is a there is a literal hell, you know it's just. Is that weeping and nhing of hate and stoking the fires? I really don't know, or
00:34:47.040 --> 00:35:05.890
Andy Miller III: or as the articles of faith. They say the endless punishment of the wicked. I know it is the very last words. Yes, I know which is really annoying when it hangs on your wall, and people will pass it every day. Yeah, sure, yeah. But maybe it's a good galvanizing thing. I believe that's true. So when you talk about the doctrines.
00:35:05.890 --> 00:35:18.640
Christina Tyson: I love them, they there, you know. I know them. I would possibly love a plain English version that was a little bit easier to display. So people didn't go. What's that about, you know?
00:35:18.650 --> 00:35:29.640
Andy Miller III: And if we had a plain English version like that which was attempted by the way, and much much the critique and salvation story that could take away
00:35:29.640 --> 00:35:39.820
Andy Miller III: the eternal eternality of life with God in life, with away from God. Now, however, you could describe that. I think that that that's clear, and I think
00:35:39.820 --> 00:35:52.680
Andy Miller III: my opinion is that William Boost, the the doctrine that he articulates the most is a doctrine of the reality of eternal hell, and it wasn't that he wasn't unaware of various versions of
00:35:52.830 --> 00:36:02.790
Andy Miller III: other alternative views. Rather it would have been universalism, or as if our entity, our being, is no longer existent.
00:36:02.820 --> 00:36:08.190
Christina Tyson: This is that duty of care that we have to people. So If you know that there is something.
00:36:08.380 --> 00:36:15.760
Christina Tyson: then you need to. You need to tell people, you know, you know you can put your hand on the stove. You'll get burned.
00:36:15.770 --> 00:36:34.130
Christina Tyson: Don't love your life without God. There's something better for you, so you know we could step into and again, this isn't a debate. But I just want to like clearly say like what's happening like, by by the way, that we interpret Scripture, and maybe say the the first question I had about the nature of the Divine rule. I think the Conservative.
00:36:34.130 --> 00:36:51.220
Andy Miller III: I I would say Biblical and orthodox expression of Salvationism would say that the Bible is clear about hell. The Salvation Army's tradition is clear about hell, and so, as a result of that, and sin in total depravity and the like and repentance needing to turn away from since.
00:36:51.220 --> 00:37:10.720
Andy Miller III: and that acceptance by Guy. And now i'm open. I'm open there being all kinds of things and being wrong, but that, and so, just to be clear, like the the tradition you're I. I just appreciate you saying like not so sure like that. And I I would You say it. That's the case, for most people who would call themselves either a Progressive or the
00:37:10.720 --> 00:37:22.390
Christina Tyson: No. I don't. I don't think you can generalize, because I just think it is how you read Scripture, whether you even have looked into this. It's it's your journey of your life. So for some people this will be a a matter of
00:37:22.620 --> 00:37:26.160
Andy Miller III: you know what they so it's based on your interpretation.
00:37:27.470 --> 00:37:40.880
Christina Tyson: There's not anything that's true outside of your interpretation. It's just, I believe the Scriptures, I believe, when they talk about how. But I also see contradictions on how the Bible talks about. So again it comes back to that plain.
00:37:40.930 --> 00:37:45.950
Christina Tyson: The plain reading of the text. It's it's not so plain to me.
00:37:48.510 --> 00:38:01.920
Christina Tyson: and i'm I see more of hell on earth, so I i'm more occupied on that that's helpful, and I appreciate you being clear about it, and I don't in the we could. We could debate that longer. But I think I understand where you're coming from, and I appreciate you making it clear.
00:38:02.040 --> 00:38:14.260
Andy Miller III: I'm gonna jump down a few questions, and then i'll do the same, so I will make sure not to give. Who Whoever I I interview next i'll make sure, and it's the I'm working on 2 people right now, so
00:38:14.590 --> 00:38:25.030
Andy Miller III: should the Salvation Army. This is Question 7 that I gave you. Should the Salvation Army change its position as it relates to human sexuality? If so, how should it change?
00:38:25.690 --> 00:38:40.680
Christina Tyson: So? I suppose the has been for quite a number of years has been attempting a dialogue in the space it's been. Various gatherings has been material. The let's talk material that's come out of I. Hq. Some years ago, and it has hit some territories and
00:38:40.720 --> 00:38:46.660
Christina Tyson: all of those sorts of things. So it's clear that Salvation army is trying to find its way forward
00:38:46.730 --> 00:38:51.590
Christina Tyson: in a context. There's a global movement where some countries.
00:38:51.820 --> 00:38:56.430
Christina Tyson: for example, this is still, you know, homosexuality would still be a criminal.
00:38:56.470 --> 00:39:06.390
Christina Tyson: So recently this year the Cook Islands has changed its view and decriminalized. But you know that's not the same. In every country some countries have different fights with
00:39:06.540 --> 00:39:10.500
Christina Tyson: it. It would be far riskier to to open
00:39:10.990 --> 00:39:21.910
Christina Tyson: the doors, so it has to be, has to be negotiated carefully, so I suppose, for me should, should the solution on me change its issues? You know it's it's
00:39:22.160 --> 00:39:26.120
Christina Tyson: position on this. Yeah, I think it should in some ways.
00:39:26.150 --> 00:39:35.040
Christina Tyson: and I think we have over a over the years. So the church has changed its practices and its positions in some major areas around sexuality.
00:39:35.160 --> 00:39:44.320
Christina Tyson: You know, I like divorce and remarriage as a a pretty clear one. I don't know what it's like in the States, but we're having to probably make peace with
00:39:44.540 --> 00:39:53.170
Christina Tyson: more young people who are a living together before marriage. That would have been when I was younger. That would have been.
00:39:53.430 --> 00:39:54.170
Christina Tyson: you know I
00:39:54.390 --> 00:40:00.460
Christina Tyson: not heard of in the church at all, and you so some of these things we happen to work out.
00:40:00.540 --> 00:40:01.460
Christina Tyson: You know I
00:40:02.470 --> 00:40:04.040
Christina Tyson: it's not easy.
00:40:04.310 --> 00:40:21.910
Christina Tyson: but we do sometimes need to look at shifting our understanding in relation to what happens in the world. So in New Zealand there's a a Maori Prob. You know what is the most important thing high time that I hate to that. It is people with as people. And so that's where I start, and where I stand on this issue is that it
00:40:21.910 --> 00:40:28.440
Christina Tyson: it is about people. And so for me. And and I can say this quite simplistically, because i'm not.
00:40:28.670 --> 00:40:41.510
Christina Tyson: You know i'm not at the High Council, and I'm. Not on our Governance Board or any of those things. But I would like to the Salvation Army to be a fully inclusive, and to be in church where everyone is valued.
00:40:43.630 --> 00:41:03.620
Andy Miller III: So by that. Do you mean, do you want when you say fully inclusive? That would include what so I would think, like I I would say you. You probably can anticipate what I would say that I would say that marriage should retain stay between one man and one woman across the world not change in any territories and any
00:41:03.620 --> 00:41:19.320
Andy Miller III: sexual activity outside of marriage between a man and woman, including cohabitation and the like, should not be permitted amongst those who who are actively engaged in the life and ministry of the savage army of soldiers or officers; but at the same time, like
00:41:19.420 --> 00:41:38.940
Andy Miller III: I I I wonder, like I'm not. I want to. I'm inclusive, like I want to include people I I want any. Anybody can come into our doors anybody is welcome to attend, but yet there are guard rails in the life of the Church. So what do you mean by you want this obviously to be inclusive. What what would that include?
00:41:40.400 --> 00:41:49.860
Christina Tyson: Okay, so for me, that would mean that soldiership. So let's let's start with Mary. So for me in our country time 6 marriages, Legal
00:41:49.910 --> 00:41:54.670
Christina Tyson: Salvation Army Office. I can't list a same-sex marriage but it is legal
00:41:54.920 --> 00:42:01.150
Christina Tyson: and so I would say that we should be able to recognize same-sex marriage.
00:42:01.170 --> 00:42:11.230
Christina Tyson: I would welcome gay soldiers that they wouldn't have to become Zelib that they could be in a faithful relationship.
00:42:11.400 --> 00:42:25.550
Christina Tyson: and I would say the same for offices, because offices really are soldiers. So it's about officership. It's that might not be a distinction that's clear to all of your listeners. But a Salvation Army officer, which I suppose is like
00:42:25.570 --> 00:42:31.670
Christina Tyson: an ordained minister, never stops being a soldier, so that's the issue.
00:42:31.700 --> 00:42:41.360
Christina Tyson: And so so I would let you know for me if I was. what would be heaven? But it is difficult to to get that across.
00:42:41.610 --> 00:42:54.130
Christina Tyson: Do you have any trouble with there being people who are outside like if they're not faithful and not in a monogamous relationship, or you open it to to being Gordon that how do you? How do you do that? How do we? So we're not moral police.
00:42:54.130 --> 00:43:10.410
Christina Tyson: and currently so, if you are, I've got heterosexual people in my congregation. I'm not going to do a show of hands on a Sunday morning. As to people's 2 relationship status, or how things are going, or what's happening in the bedroom or or any of that. I just I don't as a minister. I don't
00:43:10.450 --> 00:43:12.220
Christina Tyson: currently have to go there
00:43:12.360 --> 00:43:34.890
Christina Tyson: anyway. And so why would I? Why would I do that with another group of people. I think some of it is the prejudices, and even I recognize here like, even when i'm saying that we should be allowed to have people who are in relationship and committed relationship. All of us know that you have to you. Well, you may have to, because a lot of frogs to get to your prompts.
00:43:35.220 --> 00:43:38.880
Christina Tyson: Sorry dating is messy.
00:43:38.950 --> 00:43:53.840
Christina Tyson: And so, if we are saying, look, it would be okay for a committed married couple to be on our leadership team, for example, and to be in a same-sex relationship. I have to, therefore be just as comfortable with 150
00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:56.890
Christina Tyson: with same 6 kids holding hands
00:43:57.010 --> 00:44:15.850
Christina Tyson: and breaking up in the car park or kissing. You know all of those things, so I can't just go. Give me the end game. Give me the couple because I know I mean they give me the couple, you know, in their and sixties, who've been together in a committed same sex relationship. I have to be ready to go to the beginning as well.
00:44:15.850 --> 00:44:20.730
Christina Tyson: And so I I you know. So that's how I recognize it.
00:44:22.240 --> 00:44:24.970
Christina Tyson: I I suppose for me. It's about
00:44:25.750 --> 00:44:31.150
Christina Tyson: Jesus saying, and I've talked about this before Jesus, saying he is the gate for the shape.
00:44:31.670 --> 00:44:43.620
Christina Tyson: and I feel that us in the Church is sometimes just establishing ourselves as the gatekeepers. My experience is that God works in people's, lives, and exposes us to the things that we need to change.
00:44:43.700 --> 00:44:58.150
Christina Tyson: And so I have seen people of you know all persuasions, all types for God has worked in their life. I Haven't had to come in as the officer and go. Hey, you need to stop this. So we would have more challenges than app
00:44:58.200 --> 00:45:17.470
Christina Tyson: context. Our congregation with people continuing to want to do hard drugs. So continuing to want to get drunk, or maybe just having a bad wait because of some mental health stuff. Maybe they're off their needs, and so they're abusive, or whatever you know. We've had to have people trespass from our church because they want to come with a knife.
00:45:17.610 --> 00:45:23.690
Christina Tyson: you know. So so for those sort of things I find the guy Christians I know
00:45:25.800 --> 00:45:28.930
Christina Tyson: you know very much easier to handle
00:45:29.740 --> 00:45:49.100
Christina Tyson: then that. So I know that doesn't probably make entirely sense. The one thing I would say is that at the moment a lot of our conversations with people are around sexual behavior. I want us to get past that. And the moment this is such a barrier, how do you talk about discipleship and holiness? How do you talk about
00:45:49.100 --> 00:45:54.780
Christina Tyson: living a godly life, if you're only ever stuck here with this conversation.
00:45:55.070 --> 00:46:02.240
Christina Tyson: Sorry. because we have sort of become so entrenched in this conversation. it's really difficult
00:46:02.480 --> 00:46:07.330
Christina Tyson: to move the conversation on to the deeper issues. And that's where I think the
00:46:07.490 --> 00:46:10.840
Christina Tyson: you know the church has probably
00:46:11.180 --> 00:46:20.740
Christina Tyson: stuck here, and that's why people are now going well. In that case i'm not even welcome. You know I've got. I've got a transgender, son, so i'm not going to come to church because you're going to make him feel
00:46:20.960 --> 00:46:22.770
Christina Tyson: luck. You know I like
00:46:23.090 --> 00:46:25.590
Christina Tyson: he's nothing, you know. So
00:46:26.040 --> 00:46:31.910
Christina Tyson: they again do know how love God love others. It may sound simplistic.
00:46:32.670 --> 00:46:43.020
Christina Tyson: but I I've been an officer for over 30 years, and probably the first 10 years we win. I thought. Oh, I've got to fix this. I've got to control this there's got to be rules, and there's got to be
00:46:43.090 --> 00:46:48.270
Christina Tyson: behaviors. Yeah. And over time I've just gone. Actually, that's God's job
00:46:48.440 --> 00:46:59.280
Christina Tyson: and not mine. And my job is to throw open the door to the and not to have standards of prejudice and unconscious bias, and
00:46:59.310 --> 00:47:04.070
Christina Tyson: and some of those things. I also would say that I don't believe that the Scriptures do talk about
00:47:04.150 --> 00:47:05.550
Christina Tyson: the type of
00:47:05.700 --> 00:47:12.760
Christina Tyson: equal relationships when they talk about gay relationships. I I don't think what it what we see conveyed in Scripture is really
00:47:12.910 --> 00:47:14.520
Christina Tyson: where we are now.
00:47:15.670 --> 00:47:44.830
Andy Miller III: but it is complicated, and there's much better material out there than than what I can give them for sure, and we've I've talked about it several times in the podcast, and I can refer people back to you. Just look through my log, and you can find various things we've talked about. And I I say, just in general, just a quick little drop in there. I can't help but say a little bit just. The nature of repentance calls us, and the nature of the love wants the best for people; and if God's best is revealed in the Scriptures, the Old New Testament. And if that involves our whole lives, including our sexual lives.
00:47:44.830 --> 00:47:57.470
Christina Tyson: and indeed, that has been clear through Scripture, then we want that best for people. And so we want to. I would say that. But I would say, is it as clear as what we say? And if you were saying that your identity, you see.
00:47:57.510 --> 00:48:00.950
Christina Tyson: if your identity is a gay person.
00:48:01.010 --> 00:48:19.380
Christina Tyson: if this is not about, this is what you're saying is, disavow who you are inherently in your identity. It's very different from repenting from being an angry or selfish, or adulterous or promiscuous person. I don't have a problem saying to anyone.
00:48:19.380 --> 00:48:27.120
Christina Tyson: Promiscuity is not God's plan. I know a lovely, gay Christian, and the challenge for him is a is essentially a missionary in
00:48:27.150 --> 00:48:34.690
Christina Tyson: in the rainbow community is to say to people, casual hookups is not God's best for us. This is not what i'm going to do so
00:48:34.690 --> 00:49:04.410
Andy Miller III: I don't. I don't have a problem with those. Some people would suggest that casual hookups is a part of their identity so like it, or it, or like the same thing, as soon as liking being attracted to children or multiple people. At the same time. There's so, anyways, that's all there. Okay, I think we know where you're at. And i'm not not really trying to stop this, and and some people is would love for me to come at. Come at this in a more debate of sort of way. I'm not going to do that, even though it's it's it's very it's it's a relationship. Sorry
00:49:04.410 --> 00:49:17.880
Andy Miller III: I want to journey with people in the relationship, and they are just people's lives. Oh, I agree. I agree entirely with relationships, and I think that the those relations lead people to repentance. Okay, I'm going to see if, like what we can do
00:49:17.880 --> 00:49:42.450
Christina Tyson: as we move down to question 8. Can I keep you for another 1015 min? Okay. Then, now I feel a little bit better because we've had good conversation, and you've been very clear in the way that you've said that I appreciate that. I can tell you you're a writer in a thinker. So all right. How Number 8. How do our doctrines inform the ethics of the savage army, and in in light of that in our doctrines and ethics going together. We've talked about this a little bit.
00:49:42.540 --> 00:49:49.930
Andy Miller III: How? What does that look like for adherence? Soldiers, local officers, officers and leaders. Is it different for them?
00:49:51.040 --> 00:49:57.740
Christina Tyson: Oh, I don't think it should be different, I think Again, the the doctrines are sort of a theological foundation, so they're the bedrock.
00:49:57.840 --> 00:50:15.870
Christina Tyson: But then you've got all the application of how you do that, how you, as I say, what what do we learn about creation here. From the Scriptures what we learn a lot, but we may not see something that says, recycle. You rubbish, you know. So that's where that's where it's coming, whether it's.
00:50:16.280 --> 00:50:24.470
Christina Tyson: and so that you cannot create ethics in a vacuum, you create it from your foundational understanding. You create it from reading the Scriptures.
00:50:24.510 --> 00:50:31.030
Christina Tyson: and some people are just. This is their passionate. There are some people who just love
00:50:31.060 --> 00:50:39.470
Christina Tyson: looking at ethics. So I, when I was growing up again, you know sure. Clifton Strong doctrine, strong like mercy, is a really important book for me
00:50:39.480 --> 00:50:54.040
Christina Tyson: to help me apply the Scripture and ethical questions as the older Tony came. Parl. I's work, you know, as a sociologist that was really helpful. It's like oh, I hadn't thought about some of these things, and so I needed
00:50:54.200 --> 00:51:14.170
Christina Tyson: probably someone who could take the Scriptures and and apply it. I would say Dean pellants for Salvation Army people, or even not the implants recent book to be like Jesus, covers a lot of the ethical dilemmas that you're talking about, whether it's, you know, sexual orientation, or whether it's people living together outside of marriage.
00:51:14.180 --> 00:51:18.690
Christina Tyson: But you know. So there are people who are just really gifted at this.
00:51:18.790 --> 00:51:27.120
Christina Tyson: For me ethics is about accountability. So if I am accountable to Christ. then the way I live. My life
00:51:27.260 --> 00:51:29.360
Christina Tyson: has to be ethical
00:51:30.610 --> 00:51:38.330
Christina Tyson: in line with both the Scriptures. with the experience that I see, and with with God speaking into my life.
00:51:38.420 --> 00:51:43.650
Christina Tyson: And so ethics is really important, and it's also about walking the talk. So
00:51:44.410 --> 00:51:58.290
Christina Tyson: for Christians. If we're a holiness movement which we are, then we must be people of integrity, and so we must walk the tool. So one of the things that I've done in my officership as I had the very difficult journey, is sitting as a Salvation Army representative
00:51:58.410 --> 00:52:03.500
Christina Tyson: on the Royal Commission of Abuse into abuse and Care and New Zealand. This is still ongoing.
00:52:03.560 --> 00:52:07.490
Christina Tyson: although I'm, not sitting in that role now. And so
00:52:08.080 --> 00:52:09.970
story after story
00:52:10.150 --> 00:52:19.730
Christina Tyson: to the court of Survivors. who had been abused in some of them in church settings by Christians.
00:52:21.870 --> 00:52:26.550
Christina Tyson: by teachers, by priests, by Salvation Army officers or staff
00:52:26.640 --> 00:52:33.660
Christina Tyson: by Christians, youth leaders. So so what i'm. What i'm saying is that the ethics of a
00:52:33.690 --> 00:52:35.280
Christina Tyson: question is so
00:52:35.310 --> 00:52:43.770
Christina Tyson: important and so traumatic when we get it wrong. The ethics has to be about this this
00:52:44.160 --> 00:52:50.440
Christina Tyson: integrity and accountability to God. and I suppose that's where the salvation is a holiness movement.
00:52:50.600 --> 00:53:05.750
Christina Tyson: We are saying it is not just about crossing the line with Jesus, and knowing I'm: okay. I've got the ticket paid up to him if it doesn't actually come out in your life, you know. So that then takes us, I suppose, to the whole faith and works thing, you know.
00:53:05.750 --> 00:53:11.160
Christina Tyson: and how we saved them. You know we not saved by the good that we do, or the right choices we make.
00:53:11.940 --> 00:53:16.860
Christina Tyson: but it should overflow in our lives. So so accountability and relationship
00:53:17.100 --> 00:53:23.770
Christina Tyson: with God with others. It's really central. But I you know i'm probably not an ethical thing or
00:53:23.910 --> 00:53:35.930
Andy Miller III: No, it's great, I I I think that's helpful to see, and I I I think that if it's based in our articles of faith and our understanding of Scripture. I think that then, then moving from the kind of
00:53:35.930 --> 00:53:53.950
Andy Miller III: the articles of war, or the Soldiers Covenant, where you have the 11 articles to face, and and therefore moving on to the we wills. And I think there's a lot to that that could be. It does take you. It does take you back to the hell, you know, because some of the ethics, if we might pull. If the cool decisions
00:53:53.950 --> 00:53:56.680
Christina Tyson: we will again find ourselves
00:53:56.920 --> 00:54:03.110
Christina Tyson: and trauma and misery. Yeah. So the salvation is not trying to get people to live a blameless life
00:54:03.330 --> 00:54:05.550
Christina Tyson: because you'll feel good
00:54:05.580 --> 00:54:09.520
Christina Tyson: part of living a blameless life or an ethical life is because you will
00:54:09.660 --> 00:54:15.050
Christina Tyson: hurt others less. You know you hurt people who are people when you and you will do less damage so
00:54:15.050 --> 00:54:32.660
Andy Miller III: well, and I guess that that does come back to the nature of God, and what it means to be made in His image; and rather or not, he would have a wrath rather or not he. There is such a place as hell rather or not, he has revealed Himself through His word; and if continually acting in a knowing, willful sin
00:54:32.660 --> 00:54:48.030
Christina Tyson: is something that would lead you there. That's you learn a lot about if that's by reading the Scriptures mainly because there's a lot of people doing very unethical things in the description. So it's a it's a it's a great book for going. Oh, that was a bit done.
00:54:48.120 --> 00:55:16.580
Andy Miller III: Okay, I want to make sure to get to this. I'm going to jump down just to you the question 10, what this? And I think this is, gets the heart of the issues are probably related to the challenges that Salvation's experience. And you and I both, before we got on, talked about the things that we see online and not really like in that, not really having time for those social media discussions. But I think from the Conservative seat within the savage army, and I can just speak on behalf of the friends that I and family I have that would be there, and
00:55:18.100 --> 00:55:20.390
Andy Miller III: that it's disappointing
00:55:20.390 --> 00:55:45.330
Andy Miller III: to take a covenant. Be a sign the soldiers covenant, and commit yourself to the doctrines, to the ethical principles, and then also to the leadership of the general, to see, and in the and then the orders and regulations, and the like, and to see, consistently speaking, on behalf of a traditional view and of marriage and a sexuality; and we could probably throw in a few other issues as well. But
00:55:45.450 --> 00:55:53.820
Andy Miller III: to see differences. So that's kind of the heart of this question is that rather not, there should be consequences for for
00:55:53.970 --> 00:56:06.430
Andy Miller III: of a leader to apply this internationally, territorially, divisionally, our front line to make sure that we're paying attention to these gar Wells garlic, so should there be consequences
00:56:06.430 --> 00:56:22.920
Andy Miller III: for people like. For instance, i'll just say it's I like for you wearing a button that maybe a firms same-sex behavior like should that be allowed? Should there be, it should it be allowed, like the very for the savvy and army to support events that promote same sex behavior.
00:56:23.960 --> 00:56:30.150
Andy Miller III: And and so my question is this: Should there be consequences? Should there be consequences in the in the international army.
00:56:30.340 --> 00:56:34.160
Christina Tyson: I think sometimes there are some consequences, but it's
00:56:35.870 --> 00:56:42.150
Christina Tyson: Look for me even then wearing a badge that's around a rainbow shield. I'm not. I'm not
00:56:42.520 --> 00:56:51.930
Christina Tyson: wearing it to convert people to a particular orientation. I'm wearing it so that people know i'm a safe person to have a conversation with, if they are gay.
00:56:52.180 --> 00:57:06.020
Christina Tyson: and that they know they're not going to be further rejected. Trauma and I traumatized or marginalized if they speak to me. And then, if clients come in, you know, so we have a transgender person who travels
00:57:06.100 --> 00:57:10.980
Christina Tyson: several suburbs to come to our drop in center, because this is a safe place.
00:57:11.240 --> 00:57:21.720
Christina Tyson: and so i'm really proud of that. And if the so much, maybe you ever turned around and and disciplined me for that, or said, take that off.
00:57:21.800 --> 00:57:29.130
Christina Tyson: or stop doing that. I I would find that would go against everything. I believe the Salvation Army stands for.
00:57:29.520 --> 00:57:33.390
Christina Tyson: So I think, in terms of consequences. You see some consequences.
00:57:33.400 --> 00:57:38.080
Christina Tyson: There are consequences when and those should be clearly set out.
00:57:38.120 --> 00:57:42.070
Christina Tyson: So I don't think for people who are
00:57:42.930 --> 00:57:45.280
Christina Tyson: humanizing, because
00:57:45.310 --> 00:57:50.820
Christina Tyson: in the past we've dehumanized, gay, and lesbian people. If we are humanizing.
00:57:50.880 --> 00:57:54.100
Christina Tyson: That is not something that you should be.
00:57:54.220 --> 00:58:02.650
Christina Tyson: and penalized for or disciplined, or I think there is wise and unwise ways. There are ways where we attack. So
00:58:02.650 --> 00:58:20.060
Christina Tyson: if I had someone who came to me and said, You need to stop wearing that badge, and they were very brutal, or they are really direct, and then I retaliated in a very unkind, unchristian way. I started swearing at them if I banned them from my church, if I
00:58:20.060 --> 00:58:27.010
Christina Tyson: if I took them off the Core Council because they believed differently than me. I should be disciplined for that.
00:58:27.710 --> 00:58:29.800
Christina Tyson: you know, because at that point
00:58:29.900 --> 00:58:38.140
Christina Tyson: I am taking my belief in imposing it on someone else and an unchristian, and also in a way that's contrary to good
00:58:38.280 --> 00:58:41.090
Christina Tyson: governance in terms of the Salvation Army.
00:58:41.190 --> 00:58:56.770
Andy Miller III: Yeah, I think it's interesting to think of how consequences happen, and how we apply various levels of authority, and so like what that would be, what I what I would hope a leader would do. And this is what I would hope that a general or terrible commander would do. Is they come to you and say, Christina, I know your heart
00:58:56.770 --> 00:59:11.920
Andy Miller III: for wanting to serve people in all place and in, and I know that you're putting it on there because that that button on, because you want people to know that you're a safe place. But here's the thing, Christina. Some people might think that the salvation army affirms
00:59:11.920 --> 00:59:21.930
Andy Miller III: same-sex behavior because of that, and we don't as an organization. So because of that, because that might be misconstrued. I'd rather you just wear a pen that says I love everybody
00:59:22.180 --> 00:59:27.880
Christina Tyson: which I just wouldn't. And so in that case I I think the army is on a journey.
00:59:28.090 --> 00:59:44.050
Christina Tyson: and I think the army is having these discussions, and I think we are more honoring. I think what we need to do is make sure we not just talking about people, but we to be part of this. You know I have. We have gay people in our church. We have people on our leadership team.
00:59:44.060 --> 00:59:52.130
Christina Tyson: I have gay Salvation Army soldier friends. I have gay Salvation Army officer friends.
00:59:52.170 --> 01:00:00.670
Christina Tyson: and so in their territories. And and in those contexts around the world
01:00:00.980 --> 01:00:07.890
Christina Tyson: there are places where it is safe doesn't mean you're always a call to, but you know some are more equal than others.
01:00:08.690 --> 01:00:18.930
Christina Tyson: But these are people whose lives are dedicated to Christ, dedicated to the Salvation. I mean mission, and who are making a stronger. And so
01:00:19.060 --> 01:00:26.330
Christina Tyson: there are some things i'm happy to be disciplined for. I might be disciplined for talking to you for all. So I hope not.
01:00:26.630 --> 01:00:33.580
There are other things where I'm just going. In that case I would wear this as a protest, and I would wear this as a prophetic witness
01:00:33.610 --> 01:00:37.870
Christina Tyson: to the Church, to a church that has changed its views.
01:00:38.020 --> 01:00:50.050
Andy Miller III: Okay, let me stop you there. You've said that many times the salvation. I i'm sorry I I just want to make sure I can get a few things in there that that you said the savage army has changed its views. Let me just articulate that the Salvation Army.
01:00:50.050 --> 01:01:07.120
Andy Miller III: as an entity as a legal entity has not changed its views. There might be people within the system that change it. And this is the crux of the issue. I think that you we could all use clarity on this. I think that that's what i'm hoping for from the next general, and in the
01:01:07.120 --> 01:01:27.480
Andy Miller III: like. So I would agree with you. You would suggest maybe, that i'll i'll. I'll give you. I'll make this quick. And then I would suggest that the savage army has been clear here, and that you, probably, and many others, have changed their view away from what the savage armies is, and it's hard to say this. But I would say that Well, you're the one who's moved. You're the one who's changed.
01:01:27.480 --> 01:01:37.760
Andy Miller III: And that's okay, like. I want to affirm you and bless you and let you go out and let's let's see. You can continue to serve the Lord in our various contexts. But my challenges is like
01:01:37.810 --> 01:01:40.620
Andy Miller III: those who are in the savage army, the orthodox position.
01:01:40.630 --> 01:01:43.910
Andy Miller III: They They have a change, and it's hard for them to
01:01:44.240 --> 01:01:51.300
Christina Tyson: just to clarify. I'm saying that the church over centuries has changed its views on the
01:01:51.300 --> 01:02:11.280
Christina Tyson: just. I disagree, but keep going. No, no, I just mean in in time the so much now that the Church has changed, it's on things. If we go even back to the New Testament, where we say, you know, saying, oh, look in! You have to be like this, and God says, No. Actually, I accept this. So we have a trajectory, and so we are on that
01:02:11.280 --> 01:02:12.180
Christina Tyson: June.
01:02:12.310 --> 01:02:20.250
Christina Tyson: and so much time is really young in this. and even the Salvation Army starting was really because Methodism
01:02:20.450 --> 01:02:24.580
Christina Tyson: for the booths and for their converts. Was I
01:02:24.770 --> 01:02:38.970
Christina Tyson: not welcoming place at that time at that time in history? You know I breathed in self when we started the church and tried to get people saved and send them back. It didn't work, you know, and we also wanted some of them to stay and help us. And so here we are.
01:02:38.990 --> 01:02:58.120
Christina Tyson: So we are. We are a missionary, and we are a changing, and we are a responsive movement. And so this is an area of justice. This isn't a area of it in the Soviet Union is having conversations around it. Would I like some clarity? Yes, I suppose what I would mainly like
01:02:58.140 --> 01:03:06.900
Christina Tyson: is maybe we could have a season where we just go rather than being in a season of fear and entrenched positions. And
01:03:07.270 --> 01:03:18.740
Christina Tyson: what would it be like for us to just go. Let's sit down with gay people in the room as well, and have an honest and frank discussion. That's very difficult to do globally.
01:03:18.790 --> 01:03:30.500
Christina Tyson: Whoever the general is, I do not envy them, she or he how that will go, because it's really hard. And so it may be that those
01:03:30.820 --> 01:03:36.370
Christina Tyson: decisions need to be pushed down locally, and what I would hope is that people don't
01:03:38.070 --> 01:03:44.130
Christina Tyson: there there, aren't too many deaths by friendly fire, because that's how I feel we are at the moment. But actually
01:03:44.480 --> 01:03:52.660
Christina Tyson: we're getting distracted, as the religious people did in Jesus's time. You know we're putting up lots and lots of things that are making it hard for people to see Jesus.
01:03:53.100 --> 01:03:59.610
Christina Tyson: and I don't know how we round this. I believe in the army's mission. I want to stay and be part of it.
01:03:59.630 --> 01:04:07.260
Christina Tyson: and so I hope that I can. And I hope that my guy friends and the Salvation Army can also.
01:04:07.370 --> 01:04:16.560
Christina Tyson: And this is why there is a conversation isn't it because there are lots of different views, and I do pray wisdom for
01:04:16.570 --> 01:04:33.350
Christina Tyson: the general, but not just the general, because we have moved on from this idea that there's one heroic leader, you know. I I pray that as we, as the new general and other leaders come in and come together, that we will be able to to find a way forward and listen to the heart of God.
01:04:33.440 --> 01:04:36.750
Christina Tyson: and we will not. We will not all be happy.
01:04:36.990 --> 01:04:45.670
Christina Tyson: That's how life is, even in the local church at the moment I we not all happy all the time, but we stay as family.
01:04:45.780 --> 01:05:02.650
Andy Miller III: We let me. Just if you could give me a really short answer to this, would you? Would you be comfortable if, like in the in a an army in 5 years, if you were allowed to do what you wanted to do regarding marriage and sexuality. But I was allowed to say we're not going to recognize Mayor and I'm not going to perform a gay marriage.
01:05:03.250 --> 01:05:17.200
Christina Tyson: I I I look, I would say that we we're not there yet, but we almost are in that space. because different countries have different legislative things as well. And so I think there has to be more permission, giving trust and empowerment at the local level.
01:05:18.780 --> 01:05:36.050
Christina Tyson: and allow not just offices, but the community of faith. So this would not be about me and my husband going. All this is what we would like it to be an outrage. This should be the discussion for the Church who gets to have the voice and say in our community. This is how we want to witness, and this is how we want to
01:05:36.050 --> 01:05:44.940
Christina Tyson: want to look. And and if the Salvation Army was gracious enough to say, let's just see where that goes. But then I don't have the right to come to you
01:05:45.090 --> 01:05:49.110
Christina Tyson: in your congregation and make you feel unchristian.
01:05:49.190 --> 01:05:50.690
Christina Tyson: because you are not
01:05:50.720 --> 01:06:07.320
Andy Miller III: Well, what if I got moved to your appointment? That would be really interesting. So let me, I guess my my concluding thought around that question, and I think we'll pop it to stop. There is that we're essentially a part of 2 different armies, and I would say 2 different churches in it in my tradition.
01:06:07.320 --> 01:06:19.240
Andy Miller III: The and what I would suggest is that once you move against the very essence of what it means to be human, male and female, and then the nature of marriage, and what that symbolizes within Scripture.
01:06:19.300 --> 01:06:36.070
Andy Miller III: You've stepped outside of the Christian tradition. Now i'm not calling you a heretic, Christina. But i'm saying that this teaching is outside of Christian dogma. And so if that's the case, no, it's no longer a part of the teaching of the Universal Church, and then also not the Salvage Army. So
01:06:36.070 --> 01:06:41.860
Andy Miller III: what what happens is when we take these views? We have to realize that we're not existing
01:06:41.860 --> 01:07:00.990
Andy Miller III: a part of the same organization, and there are. There are examples of denominations that do hold the line on this internationally, and it's, as you know. And I say, hold the line because I want it to be the conservative approach, and you and you would like that line loosened to have local control, and then you'll make decisions and have more flexibility.
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Andy Miller III: and and I think that that would be pop. But again, this is this what it and I I would say that
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Andy Miller III: if I had been an officer when the time came, if the if the move came that you would want, I would just want you to know this. What this I would have left I would have left because of that. It may be part of my leaving officership. Was it was because God called me to another place. I think there's a thing in Da, because the Salvation Army was started by a couple that lived
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Christina Tyson: Yeah, absolutely. you know. And so that's how God shakes things up sometimes and makes a new thing. And I I suppose, for me, I hope
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Christina Tyson: that people don't have to leave, and that we can be family together.
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Christina Tyson: and the dichotomy is for me, and not male and female, that God saying that's my you know we're we're in God's image, male and female, and all of the all of the different expressions on there.
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Andy Miller III: So to me, I think it's interesting. It's either a accountability to this perspective, like the different theologies that we represent. It's accountability, or really separation. And we're separated right now, like we, you and I. If I was active in the savage, or it would be a part of different salvation armies. So
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Andy Miller III: it it functionally and theologically so. I think it's time for there to be accountability or separation. Now, some people say I'm too dramatic with that. Yeah, I hope not. Because I do believe that, like the New Testament as a unity and diversity.
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Christina Tyson: and that's hard, and that's our witness to the world is how we can stay together and still God to God's work, even when there are difficulties and challenges and different attitudes.
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Christina Tyson: provided people are safe.
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Christina Tyson: you know, and in some of my friends
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Christina Tyson: are not safe, and some of their family are not safe.
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Christina Tyson: and and that's what I spot to as a church for the whosoever people can come to know God
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Christina Tyson: in journey with God, and that may sound terribly simplistic, and it may sound like I'm denying the doctrines, but I actually live very peacefully in that space.
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Christina Tyson: Well, is that is certainly you can roll God list the general coming in, and for strong collaborative leadership.
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Andy Miller III: It certainly seems like you do live peacefully in that space, and I just want to affirm that. And i'm so thankful I really am. I know I I try not to get too heated here, and I did I just. I was more or less just pushing for clarity, and I think I got that so i'm thankful I really am. I hope people hear this if they, if they're uneasy with this, I think you and I would have had a great time, maybe even giving each of their hug.
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Andy Miller III: and I ha over a coffee over this, and and I, I look forward to a day. Maybe we'll be on the same contract when we can do that.
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Christina Tyson: Yeah, please see you. Thanks so much.
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Christina Tyson: Yeah, Thank you for your time. Christina, God bless you!