Visions for the UMC Part One with Adam Hamilton

Three denominations that I care deeply about are going through difficult moments in their history: The Salvation Army, the Church of the Nazarene, and the United Methodist Church. This summer I am bringing interviews with conservative and progressive voices from each denomination. I am doing this individually with the hope of producing clarity. I am not interested in a debate. Each side will be asked the same questions.

Salvation Army: Christina Tyson and Willis Howell

Church of the Nazarene: Thomas Oord and Brian Powell

United Methodist Church: Adam Hamilton and Rob Renfroe

This week we're hearing from Adam Hamilton, senior pastor of The United Methodist Church of the Resurrection in Leawood, Kansas.

YouTube - https://youtu.be/eKkyhEbugyg

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Contender: Going Deeper in the Book of Jude - This all-inclusive small group study on the book of Jude is out now. Check it out on the course page: http://courses.andymilleriii.com

Use codes: GMC or UMC for 50% off!!!

Five Steps to Deeper Teaching and Preaching - I’m excited to share some news with you. Recently, I updated this PDF document and added a 45-minute teaching video with slides, explaining this tool. It's like a mini-course. If you sign up for my list, I will send this free resource to you. Sign up here - www.AndyMillerIII.com or Five Steps to Deeper Teaching and Preaching.

Today’s episode is brought to you by these two sponsors: Keith Waters and his team at WPO Development do an amazing job helping non-profits and churches through mission planning studies, strategic plans, feasibility studies, and capital campaigns. We are honored to have Keith and WPO on the More to the Story team. You can find out more about them at www.wpodevelopment.com or touch base directly with Keith at Keith.Waters@wpodevelopment.com.

AND

Wesley Biblical Seminary - Interested in going deeper in your faith? Check out our certificate programs, B.A., M.A.s, M.Div., and D.Min degrees. You will study with world-class faculty and the most racially diverse student body in the country. www.wbs.edu

Thanks too to Phil Laeger for my podcast music. You can find out about Phil's music at https://www.laeger.net

Transcript

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Andy Miller III: 2, one. Well, welcome to the more, to the story. Podcast I'm so glad that you have come along. This is going to be a great show, and I'm really excited to be able to continue this series where we're looking at the future of 3 denominations that I care deeply about. We looked at the Salvation Army, the church in as rain. And today we're starting our section where we're talking about the future of the United Methodist Church. And we're looking at this from 2 different perspectives. So if you see, today's perspective with

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Andy Miller III: Adam, Hamilton know that there's another perspective coming next week with Rob Renfro. So before we get into that, I want to make sure, you know, this, podcast is brought to you by Wesley Biblical Seminary, where we are developing trusted leaders for faithful churches. And we serve

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denominations from all sort of backgrounds and just to highlight to, particularly in light of this episode. Today, we serve people in I Methodist Church. We have several people preparing for United Methodist ministry, but also, we have recently been approved by the global Methodist Church. We have just in the last 6 weeks

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Andy Miller III: had a hundred 50 global Methodist courses study students added to our school. So we're really delighted by that. We'd love for you to think about our school, and you can find out more about us@wbs.edu. Secondly, this podcast is brought up to you by Wpo. Development. Keith waters and his team at Wpo have done more than 250 successful capital campaigns across the country, with churches.

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Andy Miller III: with social services, institutions with educational institutions, they come in and help people develop a plan with a mission planning study, strategic plan and then a capital campaign, and they have great, a great team there that I highly recommend to you, so you can find out more about them in my show notes.

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Andy Miller III: Also, I want you to know some things are happening at my website, Andy Miller, the third.com. That's Andy Miller, I i.com. You can get a free tool. It's called 5 steps to deeper teaching and preaching. If you sign up for my email list there. And also I have this, I've something I'm going to offer for people on today's podcast particularly, people are listening in today. My study of the little book of Jude. A 6 week study

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that uses a video curriculum and discussion guys is great for small groups and discussion discussion groups. And then also Sunday school classes. you, here's what I'm gonna offer today

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Andy Miller III: that if you get that video curriculum, if you enter in the code Gmc. Or Umc, either, one will work. Gmc, or you'll get 50 off that study. And so people have been using that all over the country, as we have since the call to contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints.

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Adam Hamilton: All right. It's time to bring in my guess, and I am delighted to welcome in Pastor, Adam Hamilton, who serves the largest United Methodist Church in the United States, the Church of the Resurrection, the Kansas City area with multiple campuses. He's written multiple books. He's somebody that I've read and I have appreciated through the year. So I'm thankful to have Adam on the pile, podcast Adam welcome.

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Adam Hamilton: hey? Andy, it's great to be with you today. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And, by the way, I'm getting ready to do a vespers on Jude in a couple of weeks. So I want to figure out how I can order your curriculum and take a look at it.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, well, a lot. And there's a book coming out later this summer as well. But again, you can get that code. Umc, go to Andy Miller. I sound like a salesman. I, that's okay. This is a good time to free to miss that. Thank you.

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Adam Hamilton: And if every small group in your church wants to use it, that would be fine, too. Okay, all right. Well, we'll start with my vessels. I do this Tuesday night thing on Facebook, and usually pretty good response to people from across the country. So I'll make sure I let them know about what you're doing. Great. Well, I'll make. And also it will have a link to your website. Would you want to mention your website? Is Adam hamilton.com? Well, yes, Adam hamilton.com. But the it's on Facebook. Pastor Adam Hamilton is where I did. Okay every Tuesday night, 7, 30 to 8, 15.

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Andy Miller III: And it's usually just a just a conversation about faith and life. And whatever is on my mind for that particular day so

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Andy Miller III: well, I'm so glad that you are willing to accept this invitation. When I sent you the email, I was like, oh, I wonder if he'll do it, because sometimes people don't like to be put into different camps, and I understand that particularly somebody who serve as a pastor. Somebody served the local church pastor for 15 years. I understand that, but you've been vocal, and you've been a leader within your denomination, and so to have these parallel perspectives about the future, I think, will be helpful to people. And so I just want to be very clear at this

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Adam Hamilton: up front just for for people listening. I said this to you. I'm not here to debate you. I I I just want to ask hopefully some good questions that will lead to clarity. As people are thinking, the I'm at this church. Yeah, yeah, that's great. I'm glad to have a chance to be here

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Adam Hamilton: before we get to those questions, Adam, could you just tell us a little bit about yourself and your testimony? Sure, sure. So I was baptized Catholic as an infant. I was pretty much nothing growing up. My parents went to a United Methodist church for a few years, and we ended up. They got divorced, and we dropped out of church at that point, and by the time I was in eighth grade I announced I was an atheist, and going into high school. that's kind of where I stood.

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Adam Hamilton: and then I get invited to a little Pentecostal church, and I didn't believe in God, but I got there, and I saw their cute girls, I believe in girls. And so I started, and and really to pick up girls to begin with, and then, you know, everybody had their Bibles with them, and they, you know, carried them, you know I never read the Bible, and so I got out the Bible my grandmother given me when I was a child, a Catholic Bible, and

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Adam Hamilton: I began reading it. I decided in my freshman year I would read the entire Bible, so I I read it through, and again I was an atheist starting to just read the Bible, and I read through. I got got to the Book of Psalms. I was halfway through my freshman year in high school.

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Adam Hamilton: and I went to my pastor, and I said, Pastor, I you talk about Jesus all the time? I haven't found him. I'm in the Book of Psalms, and I haven't found him anywhere, he said. Well, the P. Is silent at Psalms. You gotta go to the Gospel, so I would read it. You know 3 chapters of the Old Testament and I in 2 chapters the Gospels to get to know Jesus, and

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Adam Hamilton: right through the Gospel, Matthew, and really came to love Jesus, read through the Gospel mark and the same, but I still struggled with the idea of the resurrection, and it got to the Gospel of Luke. And I've written a book on John. I love John, but I, Luke, is the gospel that really drew me to Jesus and His concern. Luke's concerned to show us that Jesus cared about the marginalized, the people who were made to feel small and insignificant or pushed down second class. And

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Adam Hamilton: as a kid who felt a little that way myself, I I just literally fell in love with Jesus in that book, and I thought, I want to follow this man. I get to the got to the end where he is resurrected from the grave, and

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Adam Hamilton: it finally made sense to me that if God had come to us in the flesh, and I didn't fully understand the Incarnation yet. But if you know, if God had come to us in some way in Jesus, and he was tortured to death, and that was the end of the story that means evil, and hate and sin have the final word. And even as a 14 year old kid, I thought, that can't be the end of the story. And so finally the resurrection made sense to me, and I got down on my knees and said, Jesus, I know I'm just 14 years old, but I want to follow you, and if there's anything you can do with me and with my life I pray you will.

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Adam Hamilton: And I'm gonna give my life to you, and I still pray that, for every morning I was on my knees this morning, and every morning on my knees I my day starts Just here I am. God, I belong to you. Whatever you can do with me. I know I'm 58 years old now. If you could do anything with a 15 year old, Guy, I pray you will. But, Jesus, my intention is to follow you, and to love you, and to serve you with my life, and that's

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Adam Hamilton: a little of my story, and Roberts University to be a study to be a Pentecostal pastor, and it was there that that I was drawn to West Theology, and gave my life not only to Christ, but at the At or you. I gave my life to ministry in the United Methodist Church to be a part of rendering and revitalizing the denomination and

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Adam Hamilton: with the Perkins school theology. I know you have your demon from there. I got my MB. From there in 1,988, and my dream was to start a church for thinking people were non religious and nominally religious people could become deeply committed Christians. And that's been our

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Adam Hamilton: our task. We started in 1,990, with 4 people. They? We have about 30,000 people who worship with us on any given weekend on in person, at 6 locations online and on TV. And it's been here just here in the Kansas City area. It's been an exhilarating experience. So that's a little my story. Wow, that's great. Thank you for consolidating it. So it's such a concise way. But that's great. I love to hear all the things God's done through your ministry there. Okay, so I'm going to start these questions. And again.

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Andy Miller III: they're the exact same questions that I'm gonna ask Robert and fro as well. So people can.

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Andy Miller III: But but we disagree on some other things when it comes to the United Methodist Church. And so, anyway. But yeah, I'm glad that that's a point. And I just wanted to be able to give opportunity

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Andy Miller III: for there to be, you know, clarity. And and I thought what well, the same questions might be way out, and then that that seemed to be effective, too, with the other denominations that I've done this with with this obviously an army, and then with the Church of Nazarene. So I've I've gotten critiques from both sides on both the nominations, and I've gotten compliments from both sides and both both denominations so hopefully. The same will be true here. Now, this first question might be something that has actually happened to you, but I'm going to ask it in this way.

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Andy Miller III: So if I was a newspaper reporter for the BBC. I guess I wouldn't be a newspaper reporter. Maybe I don't have newspaper if I was a reporter for the BBC. And I asked you to explain what's going on in the second largest process. Denomination. U.S.A.

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Andy Miller III: What would your answer be?

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Adam Hamilton: My answer would be that like the rest of society in the United States as well as around the world. We, you know. First of all, the United Method Church is A is a church that's made up of. We might call it the you know, the the broad center that's where United Methodisms sort of sweet spot is is, we have people who are on the left, people on the right.

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Adam Hamilton: We are conservative evangelicals. We are progressive, you know, social gospel people, and you and we bring those things together. So at our best, where people ask me, and are you conservative or liberal? And my answer is Yes, on both, and and that, I think, is the sweet spot of Methodism

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Adam Hamilton: and and we disagree about how we think God looks at Gay and Lesbian, so his jail has been children, and whether God looks at them as needing to become straight or to, you know, if they're going to be in relationship, to be in a heterosexual relationship.

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Adam Hamilton: or if God in His mercy and grace looks again Lesbian people his children and says, You know what there's a place for you to to be in covenant relationship with somebody of the same gender, and to love and follow me.

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Adam Hamilton: And so I'd say that we disagree about that. And there's a whole lot of people are in the middle, and they're not really sure where they stand. And then there's people who are on the further to the left, and they're really clear where they stand, and and that not those numbers have been shifting for some time in in society as well as in the church and And so the folks who are concerned about in the future, the United Methodist Church, allowing gain Lesbian people to marry

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Adam Hamilton: are saying we can't stay. We need to go, and and they would couch it in terms of Biblical authority. I would couch it in terms of Biblical interpretation. How we're interpreting Scripture and

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Adam Hamilton: You know there are really great faithful followers of Jesus on both sides of this, from my perspective. And I tend to be left of center on this. And when it comes to theology, I would tell you I'm right of center. So when it comes to all the things in the creeds, those matter to me. But And are things that I embrace the teaching preach. But anyway, that's what I would say is, I is weird. We are having a.

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Adam Hamilton: We're watching people who are choosing to leave and form something new. and they are committed to much of the same theology that the United Method Church is committed to this is really, despite some claims, the vast majority of United Methodists affirm the historic essentials, the Christian faith. This is about how we're interpreting Scripture when it comes to how God looks at His children, who are again lesbian

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Andy Miller III: great, that's helpful. And if you're to think about the perspective you describe saying, being left to center in one area, right of center and other. That would be probably why people have characterized you as a centrist. Would that be right? I mean, there's

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Adam Hamilton: I think that's right. I think you know the the titles all fail us at various points, but I think people recognize when it comes to the historic doctrines, the Christian faith. I'm willing to die for those

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Adam Hamilton: when it comes to loving people and trying to understand the you know, the both social and psychological dynamics of who we are as human beings. I'm going to air on the side of

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Adam Hamilton: you know mercy and compassion and justice, and you know. Listen to people, and and I do think so. I had a friend of mine who was a Southern Baptist pastor of one of the largest churches here in Kansas City. He's no longer there, but it was a pretty Conservative, you know, Southern Baptist Church.

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Adam Hamilton: but he told me once he said, you know I can't say this like in these words, but

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Adam Hamilton: if you love Jesus, you're going to be conservative when it comes to doctrine and theology, and you're going to be liberal when it comes to justice, and those 2 things have to be held hand in hand, he said. I got to be careful. I talked about some things, but he said, I don't see how I can be anything, but

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Adam Hamilton: you know what Micah says we're supposed to do what God desires of us, and that is that we do justice and love mercy and walk company with people.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, it's it. One thing that's interesting with these interviews I've done, and this is the the third one. I had somebody who I thought would have been in a similar place as you before the interview, and that was Tom, or at the in the Nazarene tradition, and when I got to doctrinal standards with him, the questions I had there. I said, for instance, I'm sure that you would embrace the Apostles Creed, and I just I kind of just assume that fact. Well, he stopped me, he said, Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! No, no, no, I'm not there.

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Andy Miller III: and and I honestly, I was taken back, as somebody, you know, at a seminary. I'm just

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Andy Miller III: like, How can you leave that? But and and he explained it a little bit. We didn't go in the in depth there, but that's one of the tensions I think we're gonna hear even in this interview, is attention not just between you and the conservative side. Forgive me for just using one quick word to define where things are. But at this same time is, is attention with wanting to from the creeds and those who I I saw a bishop from Iowa saying, Well, we don't have to.

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Adam Hamilton: I agree on on Jesus, you know. You know those kind of comments, so I would just say, and I don't know I don't. I don't know what exactly was said. But oftentimes, if if I'm watching the whole context of a conversation.

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Adam Hamilton: it makes sense, when if I only hear the sound bite, or the or a narrower clip, and and then all of a sudden, you say, wait a minute that that can't be right. And I I've noticed this on a at least a few folks out there who are championing.

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Adam Hamilton: leaving the United Methodist church, the ability to take a sound bite and to and to make it sound like that's that's all that person said, and if you hear the rest of you go. Oh, okay, I understand what they were saying. And

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Adam Hamilton: so yes, Jesus matters a lot to us, and there are essentials when it comes to faith that are that I think we hold on to. I I don't. I know, Tom. I I met him before.

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Adam Hamilton: and I don't know what you know, what he was referring to in the or things in the creeds where, you can ask, you know. Okay, so exactly. What do I think about the resurrection of the body. Did that capture, you know? Do I believe I mean so? There are places there, I believe, in the resurrection. I believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus. But when it comes to you know what? What is our.

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Adam Hamilton: what is our body? Our heavily body look like? I think there's room for us to have some disagreement about that, and and and the way it's at least couched in the resurrection of the body. It makes people thinking that the physical body is going to be resurrected. That's a problem for some people when it comes to in when it comes to cremation and other things. So I've got a few questions about, you know, about the resurrection of the body. But, generally speaking, the creeds we're we're trying to express

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Adam Hamilton: the faith is, people understood it in response to the heresies that were, or the you know, the other approaches to faith at the time, and I'm I'm a pretty pretty strong supporter of the creeds. I think they capture for us the truth of the Gospel

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Adam Hamilton: as best as we can understand it. I also think we're going to get to heaven

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Adam Hamilton: that so the Trinity, I believe in the Trinity absolutely. But I think we're going to get to heaven. We're going to go. Oh. that's how it works, and I think none of us are. 3 pounds of gray matter aren't sufficient to fully comprehend.

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Adam Hamilton: You know the mystery of God. And so I think there's a whole lot of places where we, where we have to be able to say these are the convictions with the knowledge that I have.

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Adam Hamilton: and I understand that God is

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Adam Hamilton: far more than my than a human being can fully comprehend.

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Andy Miller III: Right? I mean, you're you're exactly right that this is how we come to a place of identifying what essentials are is probably the the crux of the conversation and the conflict that we're experiencing. And it's, of course, not just in United Methodism, but in in multiple denominations. So one of the things interesting thing that's going to happen is that at the next General Conference there's a lot of question is rather, and not

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Andy Miller III: the book of discipline will change the definition of marriage. And do you think that that's going, or in particularly to the standards for ordination. Do you think that will happen? And if so, I have a follow up from there?

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Adam Hamilton: So I think, if not 2,024, by 2,026

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Adam Hamilton: we will have removed the language in the Book of Discipline that was inserted since 1,972. So bear in mind, none of this was in there before 1,972, so, as a denomination or our predecessor denominations. We didn't speak to any of these things directly prior to that. I think we're going to return the book of this one to where it was before 1,972. Which means that we're not going to be trying to. I I I could be wrong about this part in particular, because the definition of marriage is like one little half a sentence or something, one little line in the book of this one

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Adam Hamilton: and I think what we are going to.

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Adam Hamilton: what we where we're heading is to be able to say. If you are more conservative, you can be more conservative. If you are more progressive on this particular question of same sex marriage.

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Adam Hamilton: you can be more progressive if you are an if you.

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Adam Hamilton: as I do believe that God's mercy for his game Lesbian children would allow them to marry.

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Adam Hamilton: Then you're going to be able to do that if you don't believe. If that's not where your heart and your conviction you're reading a Scripture is. you will not have to do that, and that's really where we're going to land is, there's going to be a place for Conservatives

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Adam Hamilton: and place for progressives and for people in between. My views have changed over a long period of time. And most people who see this differently today, their views have changed as well. So I think that's where that's where we're heading is. is that we are going to remove language that says, the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching. We're going to remove the prohibitions against same gender marriage. We are not going to insert pro. We're not going to insert anything that says

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Adam Hamilton: you have to hold this view. So pastors have always been allowed to determine who they're going to marry except when it comes to gain Lesbian people. And then the Book of Discipline, since 1,972 added the phrases that would not allow people to marry somebody of the same gender. I think there's a there's a percentage of our pastors who are ready and willing to do that. There's a large percentage who say, I will never do that, and that's that will continue after we, you know, after 2,024.

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Andy Miller III: That's helpful. I one of the things I wonder about is as I've talked to churches, and as I'm serving people who are training for ministry and people are coming to us here, Wesley, local seminar, asking for advice. A lot of people have been given the advice to wait until this general conference to see what happens, and then and then go from there. Do you think if that happens? And then, if it's 24 or 26, 2,024 or 2,026

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Andy Miller III: should they be allowed to pursue a path toward leaving.

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Adam Hamilton: You know there is another path towards leaving, and I don't remember what it is in our book of discipline. There's one that expires the end of this year, and it's one that has to do with. And it was actually put in place in the book of this one by the conservative side, to

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Adam Hamilton: thinking that the progresses would be leaving, and and it allows for departure for this particular cause

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Adam Hamilton: in a lot of annual conferences there have been people who could lead who were leaving for other reasons, and that I don't remember the particular wording of that. But there is another exit strategy that's out there, an exit path. And I I do think

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Adam Hamilton: I I do think, for churches and pastors who say.

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Adam Hamilton: You know what, no matter what. We can't be in a denomination where anybody's going to be allowed to the same gender weddings. I think they should. I think they should take advantage of the path that we have between now and the end of the year.

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Adam Hamilton: and if if that's their. If they're absolutely determined, we are not. We cannot be in a denomination where anybody is allowed to do this. This is the time to go ahead and leave it as long as we're not required to do this as long as we're able to maintain a more conservative posture on on in terms of marriage.

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Adam Hamilton: I think that's that's where we're heading. We're heading to a place where where there will be where people will have the ability to

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Adam Hamilton: practice who they marry based upon their interpretation of Scripture. That that is where we're going. Nobody is going to be required to officiate at same gender weddings and and annual conferences will determine who they're going to ordain. And but I think

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Adam Hamilton: I think that is a place where I don't see there's huge numbers of gay Lesbian people who are waiting to be ordained.

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Adam Hamilton: and I think if they are, if they meet all, so after 2024, if they meet all the other criteria, theology, spirituality, psychology. They have the gift of this for ministry, and and they are. And already we've ordained people who are self avowed, but not practicing homosexuals. They they would say, I'm gonna live celebrately, but I know I'm the way I am. I am gay or Lesbian. I'm gonna live cell. But we are already ordaining those people.

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Adam Hamilton: So the question some who are in in some who are practicing right like there's bishops who there are in some annual conferences people who are dating, who are practicing who who are, who, who who have said.

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Adam Hamilton: this is an unjust law in the book of this one. We're going to go ahead and do that. Most are waiting till after 2,024. And so here's what I think.

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Adam Hamilton: I I don't think there's huge numbers of persons who are like that. I know some who are who are very gifted for ministry, and who are serious about their spiritual life, their love for Jesus. They have gifts for ministry, and they're also serious about the sexual ethics of the of the Christian faith. They're not sleeping around. They're not doing anything. They're really serious. But who will ultimately marry, or may ultimately marry somebody?

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Adam Hamilton: And those folks? I think there are churches out there who would say.

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Adam Hamilton: Give us a great preacher who loves people and loves Jesus. and who is striving to live a holy life as they understand it. We would love them to be our pastor. So I think there are churches out there who would say that? And there are churches out there that say, please don't give us

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Adam Hamilton: somebody who's, you know, practicing homosexual. We we don't want them, and I think that's in.

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Adam Hamilton: I believe that is exactly what's going to happen as churches are gonna Nope.

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Adam Hamilton: no bishop should be sending somebody to a church that's going to hurt the church or her, the pastor. And so I think that will happen. 2,024, or maybe 2,026. Again, we'll remove the prohibition which allows board boarding ministry to ordain who they feel like are qualified candidates for ordained ministry, who are, theologically, you know, qualified, who are spiritually qualified, psychologically qualified, and who have the gifts to ministry.

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Andy Miller III: I'm gonna jump down to the fourth question, just because I think it's more in line with what you're saying there. And one of the things that I've heard as and I, Adam, I just want you to know. I hear you saying that from your perspective, like the Centrist perspective.

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Andy Miller III: they nobody should be forced to do a wedding that they that doesn't align with their theological perspective, like I, I hear you say, but I have heard the other side, too, on the more progressive side, and I just highlighted the bishops who are practicing homosexuals in the Western jurisdiction. So it seems like the argument from that perspective is justice delayed is justice denied.

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Adam Hamilton: and it seems like like that perspective is gonna make it hard. I mean, I like I I say, I I hear your heart on this. But you have a a centrist perspective and a progressive perspective.

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And it's

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Adam Hamilton: how are these going to work together? How these perspectives gonna come together. Well, you know, for as long as there's been United Methodists there have been a Progressives, and there have been Conservatives, and there' been Moderates or Centrist. I don't like the word moderate, because in moderation no, you didn't use it. I used it. But But here's what I'd say is that

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Adam Hamilton: virtually everyone that I speak to. I know that there, and you know the argument is a sound argument, you know, when it comes to justice.

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Adam Hamilton: and I think, as in as the case with a lot of things

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Adam Hamilton: down the road, we'll look back and we'll be embarrassed and sometimes ashamed of things we accepted that we shouldn't have accepted and things that we didn't accept, that we, you know, we should have accepted, I mean.

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Adam Hamilton: So I'm gonna take a little side note for a second that I want to come back to your question. I just finished reading Frederick Douglas's final autobiography. He wrote it in. I think it was 1,881,

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Adam Hamilton: and he goes back and he looks over his entire life. He wrote 3 autobiographies, of course, across the course of his life, the great abolitionist, remarkable human being, you know, and and listening to him, describe the Methodist class leaders, you know, who broke up his Sunday school class because he was trying to teach other slaves how to read.

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Adam Hamilton: or the arguments from Scripture for for slavery that were used when when they were trying to, you know, when the slave masters were convincing their slaves. that this was a ordained by God, this is something that's allowed by God. And

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Adam Hamilton: and I think.

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Adam Hamilton: after the Civil War, and given some time, there were very few pastors who would have said that they

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Adam Hamilton: we're proud. They embrace the idea that

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Adam Hamilton: slavery should be something that's practice, you know. And so I think I think there are things that today I am willing to embrace that down the road. I'm going to look back and go. I shouldn't have ever embraced it. I'm quite apart from this issue we're talking about. So

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Adam Hamilton: I'm also a pragmatist and a pragmatist who recognizes that people are different places at different times in their lives, and recognizing the journey that I've been on.

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Adam Hamilton: So here's here's what I want to. I want to wrap this little part up by saying, every person that I know that I talk to every large church pastor across the denomination. People who are advocates for same gender marriage include full inclusion in the denomination.

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Adam Hamilton: while I know there are some progressive who would make a different argument. Almost all of them are saying.

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Adam Hamilton: look, we don't want people who don't want to do gay weddings to do them.

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Adam Hamilton: Who wants to get married by somebody who thinks that the husband, you know the 2 people getting married are living in sin. And so.

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Adam Hamilton: you know, I just I simply do do not believe, and I will say.

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Adam Hamilton: you know, in terms of whatever influence I have.

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Adam Hamilton: I'm gonna I'm an influence to allow people to be where they are, and they may change their views may change. But we are not going to force people to do weddings

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Adam Hamilton: that are not. That's not where they're at, even on my staff. I've got 28 boarding clergy on my staff, and

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Adam Hamilton: the you know, we have some who are more conservative and some who are more progressive. And so I will just say, I don't know anybody who's advocating for that position. Personally, I probably do know some. I just don't have conversations with them, and it's a small number in our denomination. And, to be honest, I'm grateful for the people who are championing social justice, even if it's on a cause that I'm not sure I'm that's where I'm at. I'm grateful that they're speaking up in that way, because that's how

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Adam Hamilton: I mean. I think they they help us think differently. And you see this, I'm you know, in the in the Nazarene Church you've been a part of that. And this and Salvation Army. I'm guessing you have people who are, relatively speaking, more to the left or more to the right, and both of those and they and they bring a value. They bring something important to the table. And so

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Andy Miller III: yeah, that that's the interesting dialogue piece that we're working through is, what is it that unite this. So I I'm just so envisioning an idea here. I didn't write this as a question. But you talk about how you are, Oral Roberts, and that was when you decide that to join the I met this church, and I always I get. I've heard you this part of your testimony 2 or 3 times I one with Mark Tulie's interview. And you said you went, and you're saying I read a book, and I'm like, Oh, man, what book did he, what book brought him? The method is, I want to get this book.

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Andy Miller III: And you said the Book of Discipline right? I read the Book of Discipline. Oh, there you even have it right there in your hand. There it is. So now a young Adam Hamilton at all. Roberts University goes and reads that book and reads what it says about same sex relationships or whatever the specific language. I'm sorry not in the method of search. I don't know all the paragraph numbers and that sort of thing. But

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Andy Miller III: you would have thought, Okay, this is what this church believes. I'm going to join this group

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Andy Miller III: and you join this group, and for forgive me if this sounds too blunt. But this is the language this way. I've talked about in the savage already, which has similar similar sort of process. It's like you come in and you decide to change from what the Book of Discipline says. In my view, it seems like you're the one who's changed, you know, like you're the ones who who've moved. How? How is that wrong?

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Adam Hamilton: Well, first of all, I'd say what drew me to the United Methodist Church is this theological statement. and it's historical statement, and those are all found in the In it's called our theological task in the. It's it's section 3,

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Adam Hamilton: and those are our bedrock foundational understandings, the stuff that's in the rest of the book of discipline. A lot of it. Actually, it's rather boring, most of it. And it's a lot of rules. And on those rules some of them are rules that get changed. In fact, that's why we have a general conferences every 4 years. We re-evaluate those rules. We don't reevaluate our doctrine.

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Adam Hamilton: we reevaluate our rules and our social principles as well. Our social principles are things that

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Adam Hamilton: as we see it with the light that we have today, this is what we think about whatever the issue may be. global warming, or you know, you know, immigration, or whatever

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Adam Hamilton: those views in the social principles not everybody agrees with, but they are generally our best attempt at trying to do Christian ethics and those change over time. And so the thought that whatever the book of this one looked like when I became a United Methodist that the rules portion of that

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Adam Hamilton: it's something that's not going to ever change that. That's not how it. That's not how it works. When it comes to doctrine. That is how it works. So I would say if I decided that I was a Unitarian, and I didn't believe in the Trinity anymore. I should leave

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Adam Hamilton: when it comes to.

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Adam Hamilton: you know, prior to 1,972. These things were not in there, and so they were added as society changed as people, as we had debates and arguments. That's part of how we work out. You know our how we're going to live out our faith as a church. And so I disagree with the idea that if you change your views from what the Book of Discipline said in 1,972, not 1,968, when the denomination was formed, but 1,972, then you should leave. That didn't make any sense to me.

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Adam Hamilton: I think what we do try to do, and what I have tried to do is to live according to these principles, even when I don't agree with them. So there are, you know, at resurrection. We don't do same gender weddings. They. We have lay people who can do them outside of the congregation. But our clergy, I've just said we are living according to this book.

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Adam Hamilton: because this intel it changes. We're living according to this book until there comes a part where it can't anymore. And so, you know, it's just. And I would say, it's the same thing. It's like love it or leave it when it comes to America.

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Adam Hamilton: you know. So you had Dr. King and others who were advocating for violating laws that were in unjust laws, and and doing that in a peaceful way. a nonviolent way. Should Dr. King and everyone else who were with him, should they have left the United States and gone to live in Europe or somewhere else? Or was it right for them

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Adam Hamilton: to say these unjust laws, and we should work against them. But we need to do that in a way that doesn't violate other laws. And so I think there's a place for us when it comes to conscience to saying this simply isn't right, and and and again going back to the issue of slavery.

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Adam Hamilton: It it was that very thing that led to the change changes in who we are as now, United Methodist

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Adam Hamilton: was the willingness to say what our this one says is not okay.

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Adam Hamilton: We have to. We have to speak up, and I would think I I'm pretty sure this is true with you. I know this is true with you. If you see an unjust law, even though it's a law in your state.

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Adam Hamilton: I'm hoping you're going to speak up and say, you know that's just not right. You're not going to say you're not, and somebody might well move to Kansas. Then they don't have that law. No, you're going to say this is not right for me as a Christian

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Adam Hamilton: to to live according to an unjust law for other people. That's just that's both prophetic. And it's and it's Christian. And so

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Andy Miller III: yeah, this helpful, I, I I it's helpful for you to articulate this as clearly as you are, Adam, and certainly you're a gift to communicator, and I just want to rearticulate the people that this is not a debate some of my friends are going to say, Andy, you know you have a really good response to that. Why didn't you say it right there? And I'd say, I do have over 100 podcasts. And we hosted a conference on this theme at West to Biblical seminary, where we looked at rather not human sexuality as a matter of dogma, or in a sense.

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Andy Miller III: so I will leave it there out of it. Thank you so much for answering the question with the connections that you have. So let's go into the next question. 3. So we'll then we'll skip question, for do you support a plan to give international churches the same opportunities to disaffiliate that churches in the U.S.A. Have possessed?

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Adam Hamilton: Well, so yes, of course I think that people should be able to. If

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Adam Hamilton: let me say a couple of things. First of all, our.

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Adam Hamilton: the clause that that creates problems with people, this affiliating is a clause that was inserted by Wesley himself

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Adam Hamilton: because he didn't want churches that were leaving over some, you know, to easily be able to leave. So we have our policy says that you know all of our property, everything else we own in common. We hold it in trust at a at an annual conference level and and so

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Adam Hamilton: making it easy for people to leave is not.

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Adam Hamilton: That's that's something we've tried to avoid. And in fact, we've made it much easier for people to leave. But we've done this.

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Adam Hamilton: you know, a historically, but going back to Wesley

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Adam Hamilton: it was, it was. He made it harder for people to leave, because they knew there could be a pastor who could take a congregation to leave, you know, and there might have been 20 years worth of

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Adam Hamilton: ministry done in one cent in one way. And then suddenly, you've got a pastors, maybe coming as a Calvinist and says, you know, we're gonna we're gonna do calendars now and then. They're gonna take their, you know, their preaching house with them. So I appreciate that Wesley made that hard when it comes to international. I'm not to be honest. I don't know as much about what is or isn't allowed for them. They're again. You've got churches that have left. you know, they're typically small

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Adam Hamilton: portions like Bulgaria, I think, has maybe 16 or 20 or 30 churches. I'm not sure pretty small churches, the the largest of those is the Russian United Methodist Church, which voted to leave in mass, and I think there's a

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Adam Hamilton: there may be a hundred or 200 churches in that. And that's a that was very sad for me, because I've spent a lot of time in Russia and doing leadership, training and development, and I love the people who are there, and I hated to see them leave And the and the Bishop is somebody I I really love Edward Kay, and

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Adam Hamilton: but you know they they manage to find a way to do that, and I think the book of discipline is adapted and adaptable in other settings. And so I don't think this is quite as big an issue as what it's made to sound like for some people. Given the fact that the entire Russian United Methodist Church with it's 200 churches left Bulgaria left. There's others who are staying. And So I think.

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Adam Hamilton: and I think when it comes to the big question, is Africa.

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Adam Hamilton: what's gonna happen when it comes to Africa? And and there I I'm really not certain. I I used to think I knew where what was going to happen. I thought they were all leaving, and which made me sad. I've been to Africa, too, and I I hated to see that. But I'm I'm hearing

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Adam Hamilton: that. Maybe that's not exactly the case, and especially again when we've got a the ability to adapt the book of this one regionally, and when churches are aware that we are not going to have something, the discipline says, united methods must officiate at same-sex weddings that will not that that's really helpful. Let me just jump in there. So that's something we didn't say earlier. May. Maybe we didn't. Sorry if I missed it, that the book of Discipline should adapt regionally

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Andy Miller III: well, it already it already is able to be adapted originally so in in other regions their discipline reads differently. They they elect bishops differently. They are, you know, they are elected to different terms. So there is ad that adaptability. There are certain sections that discipline that that are not adaptable. So our doctrines so our theological task, our historical statement

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Adam Hamilton: our social principles. Those are not. I. I don't think such principles are adaptable you know, regionally, but if we have removed the the language that's in the non adaptable portion of the Book of discipline.

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Adam Hamilton: then, that that would make it possible for annual conferences to, or regions, not any of, but regions to be able to insert portions in the adaptable parts that have to do with how they're going to practice ministry. And so, yeah, I I. And that's part of the reason why I think

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Adam Hamilton: the there are a lot of a lot of churches globally who have partnerships with churches that are staying United Methodist. And the idea that they like we, we've played a pretty big role in in supporting the folks in the in the Malawi Annual Conference, and I've been there several times, and you know, I think there's those partnerships. People don't want to leave them, and they and they don't really want to leave the United Methods Church.

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Adam Hamilton: They just need to be clear about. You know this particular question, and

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Adam Hamilton: so I think I think that we there will be provisions for adapting the Book of Discipline, removing the portions from the non adaptable book of discipline that affect this question, and then allowing it to be placed in other places.

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Andy Miller III: So in principle, you agree that they should have the same basic idea that they leave the same way.

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Adam Hamilton: Yeah, I I don't understand why that what happened in the insertion in the Book of Discipline 2,019 that wasn't applicable to them. But I do think that

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Adam Hamilton: I think the other clause that allows people to leave

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Andy Miller III: should be applicable to everybody. And I think that I think that is I I'm not an expert on the, on the book of this right in that area. Yeah, I I tried to check. Just so I I brought ran these questions for people on multiple sides, and you know, not exactly a united method. It's book of discipline. Scholar. I understand a bit of the history of of how the Methodist, the principal church, came about 1,784. All this type of thing in that like I get that. But

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Adam Hamilton: I don't understand that altogether. But I got this. That was a that was a question that on both sides there's there's real interest in what's going to happen there. So anything else I say about that happen I I could be wrong, but I believe that we're going to adapt a a plan for regionalization, and

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Adam Hamilton: and that will allow some flexibility. And and this needs to happen. It should happen a long time ago. Unfortunately, over the last 20 or 30 years, almost every vote we brought to General Conference

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Adam Hamilton: was a proxy vote about this question that we're talking about today. So we stopped voting for things because they made sense. And they were right. And we started asking, What does that mean when it comes to, you know, full inclusion. Or what does it mean when it comes to? And so what I'm looking forward to is the day when we're making decisions at General Conference that are because they're the right decision to make for the health of the Church. And that's not all seen through the question of same same sex marriage. And I think that that's coming. I'm excited about that. Actually.

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Andy Miller III: yeah, I think that will lead into one of the questions we have a little bit later. I know. The next question is, this is, I know it's been a really hard and sad time for everybody in the United States. I think I don't think anybody's real excited. Yeah, I'm so glad we get to go through this. But that haven't been said. Do you see any benefits of this affiliation for those who remain, you know, a Methodist, or for the denomination as a whole.

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Adam Hamilton: I actually do. I'm I'm pretty excited about where we are right now, and I think what I love. I I join the United Methodist Church, you know, 50 years or 40 years ago, and the entire time I've been united, Math is. We've been fighting over this question, and instead of being a mission driven denomination.

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Adam Hamilton: we have been a conflict-driven denomination at the general church level and local churches. They're mission driven. But I'm pretty excited about the the thought that the people who stay

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Adam Hamilton: are excited about the future of the United Methodist Church, and they have a conviction about who we are and what we stand for, and and that. you know, folks who felt like they were. Because, you know, if you're on a like, let's say you're on a committee in a local church, you've had this happen, no doubt, and you have somebody on the committee, or maybe a couple of people on the committee who have.

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Adam Hamilton: you know, one sort of way of seeing things, and that everybody else is somewhere else. And so you spend all your time debating stuff as opposed to actually getting things done, and and to be able to bless people who are leaving, and to say, God bless you, I mean we wish you well. I I know you're joining the Gmc. I wish to James you. Well, there are people that you all are going to reach with a Wesleyan.

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Adam Hamilton: you know, in essence, United Methodist theology. You're the theologies exactly what you're gonna find in this book.

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Adam Hamilton: I think our statements a little bit better. It's more comprehensive than the one in the in the doctrines, and this one of Gmc. But I think that's a good statement, and I agree with everything that's in doctrines and discipline statement, not related human sexuality. But

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Adam Hamilton: but yes, I I'm pretty excited, and here's some of the things I'm already seeing. So there was a church in Illinois that their church voted to leave, and 100 people said, We can't do that. We we don't think that's that doesn't represent who, we understand.

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Adam Hamilton: were to be as Christians. They started a new United Methodist church. That church went from 100 to 200 in the last 2 months, and just, you know, and they're so excited. I was visit. They were here for a conference at resurrection. They were just pumped up about, you know, like God is doing something amazing here. And there's people coming, and we just and and I likewise. You know, there are Gmc people who are gonna go. They're gonna take their Umc and they've become a Gmc. Church

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Adam Hamilton: and they're going to be excited. They're starting something new, and that's that's can be wonderful, too. And again, when it comes to evangelism and a whole lot of other things.

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Adam Hamilton: You know the Gmc. Emphasis on that like, I'm there 100. I'm very excited. I hope that you know. Hope they're able to reach people that that are not currently being reached for Christ in their communities. And so in God's providence, God and I don't think God wills churches to split and denominations to split. But in God's providence he doesn't waste it, but he uses it.

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Adam Hamilton: And I think it's going to happen in the United Methodist Church, too. I think we're. You know. I'm seeing this. I see it a resurrection. We've had over 2,000 people join the church in the last 3 years, and it's been exciting. And there are people who are coming saying, this is exactly. This is the church, you know, and and they're not.

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Adam Hamilton: They're not looking for a church that's primary issue as human sexuality. They want a church that's primary. She is Jesus.

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Adam Hamilton: But so yes, I see, I see a lot of positive things that are going to come out of this. And I think when we get to General Conference.

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Adam Hamilton: and we stopped debating about this every year, and demonstrations and everything else. And it said, We're focused on what does it mean to be followers of Jesus? And how are we going to change the world? And how are we going to help people see his light and love, and and drawing people into authentic Christian discipleship? I think I'm pretty excited about that. That's why I became a pastor. Yeah, absolutely. That's that is in part why we become pastors. And I was in a situation where just recently I had a call from a church

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Andy Miller III: that is looking for a pastor, and it was a church where I was married. Statesboro, Georgia or my wife graduate high school in that church, and they missed the vote to disaffiliate by just a couple of votes. I don't know what it was 4 or 6, and there was some controversy with it. Well, the next Sunday

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Andy Miller III: they had, I think, 300 people, and it happened to Easter Sunday, and there it it's amazing. I I talked to this group of lay leaders who are just thrilled. They're excited about this opportunity for their church to exist. Now they're just, I mean, it's like building the ship while it's sailing. They're trying to figure out how they find a pastor. And we see that story happening time and time again. So I think we want the best for people on both sides. Exactly, and I do think there is, you know, so

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Adam Hamilton: we'll multiply. They'll almost all those churches that are that we're closely divided on the vote. There's going to be a church that's going to start out of that. That'll make both churches less healthy to begin with in some ways, because if you take a church of, let's say 100 people and 50 go start another church and 50. Those are hard churches to see thrive, but they can, and sometimes will. And so I think.

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Adam Hamilton: you know, and Rob and I have a serious disagreement about this, so you'll you'll have a chance. Your folks will have a chance to hear from them him next week.

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Adam Hamilton: I'm okay with people who are leaving because of their convictions around human sexuality. What frustrates me is when

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Adam Hamilton: you find the

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Adam Hamilton: you find things that are outside the Norman United Methodism, and you try to make it sound like the norm theologically. And then you convince people to leave because they because this is what's happening theologically in the United Methodist Church.

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Adam Hamilton: And I think that's that's where there's a lot of people out there who are who are leaving or thinking about leaving because they're scared, that the United Methodist Church. I get these emails all the time and Rob denies that this comes from his group. And maybe it doesn't. Maybe it comes from some, you know, some kind of Gmc. People who are not in the in the norm, but trying to tell people. You know the United Method Church will no longer believe in the Trinity. It no longer believes in the resurrection, and no longer believes in the Atonian work of Jesus, and no longer. And you can find persons to quote, who.

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Adam Hamilton: whether in context or out of context, will sound like that's true. That simply does not represent who we are, doesn't represent it in any polls. I've taken across the country doesn't representative of the polls have taken him on clergy.

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Adam Hamilton: it just. And so that's where where I if if you're leaving because you. You say you know what marriage is. Only this, and I can't be in a denomination where they would. Anybody would be allowed to to interpret Scripture differently.

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Adam Hamilton: My God bless you! You know it's okay. I just want to make sure people leave for the right reasons and not for something. That was a what I consider misinformation. And Rob can quote. He's got, you know. I've watched this video so he can quote a number of people that make it sound like this is the trend in the United Methodist Church. It simply is not, in my opinion.

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Andy Miller III: Well, here here, in that, that you've done some empirical searches on that to make that clear as helpful. I'm an anecdotally. It's been true in my experience is when I was at Perkins. But we're both on both both of us went to school. We're both along this at school. I was in a small group, and I was there in my savage army uniform, and there was a couple of their United Methodists around me in a small class, and I was the only one to from the resurrection there.

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Andy Miller III: and that was a that was a a strange moment for me now. Maybe maybe I asked the question in the wrong way again. This isn't empirical, but it was something that I had to work. I was like, Wow, this is very interesting where where things are head. So I understand why people might feel that way just a couple of points here and there, but at the same time, like, Yeah, it's good for you to say that I'm glad for you to say that you don't think that's going to happen

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Adam Hamilton: when So a study was done, and I don't remember. It's probably been 10 years ago now in the United Methodist Church

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Adam Hamilton: that look to see the number of people who believed in the Resurrection today, or at that time versus 30 or 40 years before more people believed in the resurrection. More clergy believed in the resurrection

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Adam Hamilton: today than they did 30 or 40 years ago. Coming out of the sort of Liberalism of the late

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Adam Hamilton: nineteenth century going into the early twentieth century. There were folks who then spiritualize the resurrection, and I think there were. There were a number of you know Panenberg and number of others who helped people be able to go wait.

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Adam Hamilton: It's possible to be a thinking person and believe in the resurrection, and I think that led to a significant. I've told Rob this, I said, Rob. Your group, you know good news and and other groups that you've been a part of.

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Adam Hamilton: We're helpful in helping people reclaim the resurrection. I celebrate that. And you know I was. When I was at Perkins there was one of my seminary professors, you know. He believed that we were remembered by God, but not that that we were literally raised from the dead. You know our own resurrection, not just Christ, resurrection. And and I sat there and I thought, I'm gonna to listen to understand his arguments.

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Adam Hamilton: And I was grateful I did. He was somebody who was re. So this is interesting. But if you look at theology often, we are responding to whatever was happening in our time. So so Shubert Ogden was the process theologian at at Perkins. He was a brilliant guy, and I don't know if he was there when you were there or not, but he brilliant Guy.

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Adam Hamilton: and at the same time, you know, was much more to the left in terms of certain things. When it came to theology. But you know, when you studied him he was coming out of the he was responding to and trying to make the faith

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Adam Hamilton: makes sense to the god is dead people of the late 1,900 sixtys. So if you understood what he was responding to, he was trying to in his own mind trying to figure out, how do I help this faith? Speak to a generation that's saying that God is dead, and there's no more need for God. Well, process theology made sense in that. And and you know.

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Adam Hamilton: anyway, when I understood that I came to appreciate

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Adam Hamilton: the things that he had to bring to the table.

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Adam Hamilton: while at the same time being able to say, But I don't agree with that, and I think that's in the United Methodist Church you're going to find The vast majority of people believe in the resurrection of Jesus. they believe in the

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Adam Hamilton: you know, the resurrection of the body.

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Adam Hamilton: you know.

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Adam Hamilton: a huge percentage of people. And at the same time there are people have questions, and what I've said is, there's room for you to have questions here.

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Adam Hamilton: That's one of the things I love about. This church is room for you to have questions, and I think it's normal for us to wrestle with doubt and questions.

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Adam Hamilton: But this is a place where I hope that you're going to ultimately find. You know where you're going to find the truth about Jesus, you for yourself. You're going to be able to ask questions and be able to and be able to come to a place where you say? Oh, finally, that makes sense to me, because that's where I was as a kid, you know I love Jesus, but I couldn't believe in the resurrection. It took a particular moment in time for me to be able to go. Of course I believe that that makes sense. I mean this not only makes sense intellectually.

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Adam Hamilton: but when it comes to the hope of the gospel it makes sense. And so when I was at Perkins, there were there were people who were students, you know, I'm like.

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Adam Hamilton: and they tell me what they believe. I'm like, Wow, okay, I'm not in Kansas City, for that's right, literally, yeah, literally. But but then you watch people change, you watch them grow, you watch them mature there. There was a young man that I was on the Board of already ministry.

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Adam Hamilton: and he was coming through in the process, and and he didn't believe in the Trinity. And you know, I said, I'm sorry, but this is what we believe this is. You know I love you, and I'm I'm excited. You want to be a pastor, but

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Adam Hamilton: but either you need to spend a little more time studying this and trying to understand it, or

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Adam Hamilton: maybe you'd be a better fit in the Unitarian church. But you know, this is, we're going to sing songs about the Trinity. We're going to teach about the Trinity we're going to, and we need our pastors to be able to articulate that. And he went back. He spent another year in seminary, and he came back, and he said, I get it now, you know, and I was really glad, and he, you know he was in tears when we told him. No, and I, you know I felt like being in tears because I love this kid, you know, and today he's a very effective pastor. But it required our being clear about where you know where our boundaries were, and encouraging him to spend a little more time, not condemning him.

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Adam Hamilton: but encouraging him. And I think often we find ourselves condemning people who aren't, where we we are as opposed to encouraging them to continue to grow. And and

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Andy Miller III: anyway, yeah, we I, I get as somebody in theological education, our processes to lead people through a process of having difficult questions, looking at various perspectives like, that's what we want to do at Wesley Biblical Seminary. So like the importance of asking questions. And we we come out with a definite theological basis that doesn't move from certain certain areas. But that's where we're different. Okay.

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Adam Hamilton: I think we're pretty much the same when it comes to our theological standards. So our theological task and standards. Those are immovable. Now, there may be places to allow people to question, but there those are.

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Adam Hamilton: you know, those are things that we say. This is our doctrine. This is what we teach and preach.

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Andy Miller III: but that hasn't necessarily happened that, like a Methodist institutions the same way that you would hold to the same standards when you have

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Andy Miller III: various celebrations of you know pagan rituals and that sort of thing I mean. There, there's been some extreme things there you have to admit and and like. From what I'm saying is like we take, we take a foundational piece of Biblical authority, like our kind of like

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Andy Miller III: characteristic beliefs that are absolutely essential for us. And you might disagree this. And this is and we're not you. I'm at this school. We're not approved by the University Senate. We are approved by the global Methodist Church. But, like we take a hard stand on on Scripture and Scripture authority, and we subscribe in general to the Chicago statement on an errant scene. At the same time we also affirm.

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Andy Miller III: then I think I don't think you would deny this either, but the the reality and promise of experiencing, sanctifying grace in this life, so like those are like this Scripture and holiness are key to us. So like. So somebody is going to be hired at Wesley Biblical to Mary. And I'm led. This process are going to affirm those things. So. And if you move away from that, you're moving away from the institution

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Adam Hamilton: right? Right? I think I think that's right. And yeah, we do disagree on in Aaron. See? There's a you know. I wrote a book several years ago on called Making Sense of the Bible, with several chapters on. Why, why, an errands is not something that I that I feel like we can affirm. But But I think that the idea that

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Adam Hamilton: you know, we look to Scripture as our primary authority, written authority and put in and practice. Now, Jesus is our primary authority, and Scripture bears witness to him. But yeah, and I think there are. You know, there are places and times where I look at things that happen in the United Method Church, and I shake my head. I'm like, really.

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Adam Hamilton: how did that happen? And you know

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Adam Hamilton: what? An. And so I I read something yesterday about a pagan ritual or something happening at a seminar, and like in in a united method similar. My answer is that shouldn't be happening, but I'm not sure how frequently that happens, and I I could be wrong. Maybe I'm misunderstanding. But

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Adam Hamilton: you know that that isn't something that should be happening. What I can say is, when I was in Seminary Perkins, you know we did have. We had Buddhists. We had a class on a religion in a global perspective. I was so glad to have Buddhists come in and talk about their faith and Hindus and others, because I wouldn't have known any of those had I not had the opportunity to hear it from somebody who was an advocate, and that has helped me to be a more effective witness for Christ. Having actually heard from people who held views different from my own for sure. And like we do that Wesley Biblical, too, you know, in our in our world religions classes. And

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I I. Now I'm not saying that you.

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Andy Miller III: Perkins, did this, but but we just don't have those folks on faculty, you know, or or like somebody like a Roman Catholic, too, even though you and I probably both benefited from Roman Catholics on the faculty at United Methodist schools. Okay, I'm going to keep going, Adam. So the next question is, what do you see as the biggest challenge going forward for the United Methodist Church? Both the media and in the long run, like, what are the challenges you guys are going to experience? Yup? Well, I think the the immediate challenges are for

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Adam Hamilton: annual conferences where they've had a number of churches leave.

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Adam Hamilton: is there? There'll be financial repercussions for that, so they can have to reorient. And I actually think that's a good thing. I think you know, any any time you've had something like this, a crisis is a great opportunity for something good to come out of it, and I think that will happen there. I think it's also going to force them to look at. Where do we? How do we start new churches and new faith communities? And I think the greatest growth opportunities we have, whether it's Gmc or Emc

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Adam Hamilton: is starting new faith communities. And so I think that's going to be important. I think it's going to be important to be to look at. What do we do to unify congregations that have been divided over votes? Most of our churches didn't take a vote, but for those who did. If you took a vote

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Adam Hamilton: you're now divided, you know. That's why I when we were

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Adam Hamilton: as a like, we? We don't vote on things that are not.

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Adam Hamilton: you know, if you vote on the color carpet, the people who in in your new sanctuary the people who don't like the colored carpet may tend to want to leave because they didn't get their color carpet. This is a much bigger issue than that. But you're going to have. So what do you do to bring those churches together? And that's going to be true for the Gmc. Churches, too. If a church voted to go. Gmc, and they've got 30% of the people who didn't vote to do them. How do you bring those people together? And so I think that's going to be really, really critical is, how are we bringing people together around common vision and mission?

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Adam Hamilton: The reality is

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Adam Hamilton: for both Umc and gmc.

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Adam Hamilton: If a church votes to leave to go to the Gmc. And they were not growing before voting to go join the Gmc. Is not going to help them grow now

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Adam Hamilton: it it there are.

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Adam Hamilton: I'm dubious in most cases that the reason why they weren't growing was because of the denominations debate over human sexuality. There may be places where that was the case. I don't think that's the case in most places.

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Adam Hamilton: and so we still got to look at what is it? And for churches that say, you know it. It was the book of this one's position that kept us from growing. I'm like.

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Adam Hamilton: yeah, maybe. But so united methods. But I'm pretty sure it was more than that. I'm pretty sure you've got to figure out some of the essentials to helping create dynamic congregations. One of those is to know what's your mission, what's God called your congregation to do and to be really clear about that. You've got to have preaching that speaks to people's head, heart, and hands. That is Biblical that is inspired, that's led by the Holy Spirit. You've got to have congregations who are missionally driven to go serve out in the community, out in the world

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Adam Hamilton: really great care for the people in our congregations, and we're living at a time where less people going to church than ever before. And so we've got to figure out, how does the gospel speak to non-religious and nominally religious people?

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Adam Hamilton: So those are the challenges that the Gmc is. Gonna have those the challenges that the Umc is gonna have the Gmc. Has a large number of small churches. The Umc. Has a large number of small churches. We've both of those denominations. I have friends who lead large churches who are who left the Umc. Their churches were declining for the last 10 years. They're not going to instantly start growing because they join the Gmc. Or most of them aren't joining the Gmc. They're becoming independent.

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Adam Hamilton: Those are simply not. There are other issues. There are more core issues about. What does it take to be a vital congregation that have to be addressed. And you know, I've known people on the on the left who, like, once we get rid of these statements, the book of Discipline. I'm like, Yeah, that's a roadblock for some people. But we've got a you know. We've got to know. What does it take to create highly vital congregations

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Adam Hamilton: and to live that gospel and

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Andy Miller III: And so that's going to be the great challenge for both the nominations. I think there's an additional and sociological concept in in like you're a master of it, I would say, like of of how to create an environment that has a cohesive mission. And that's part of why, you said, your church has grow my 2,000 members in the last 3 years, so I think you'll be really helpful to the I met this church if they're able to listen to you, do you, in light of the way? That

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Andy Miller III: main line to nominations have been on decline, and the 9 Methodist Church has been on a client. Do you think that the and I Methodist Church will grow numerically

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Adam Hamilton: so? I've always said that that we, that the reasons for our decline are

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Adam Hamilton: the those reasons will continue for a period of years. I anticipated that, you know we would probably stop

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Adam Hamilton: the aside from the divisions. So if the divisions had happened, we were going to continue to decline, in part because our congregations are older, they're smaller. They're older, a large number of them, and they are, you know, we had a time in the eighties where people were leaving the church. They were looking for something different than what the United Methodist Church. Many United Methodist churches were offering.

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Adam Hamilton: But today people aren't leaving. They're dying.

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Adam Hamilton: And I mean, we have people who are leaving to join the gmc, so that's that. But once all that the dust is settled, I think.

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Adam Hamilton: here's what I think we will continue to decline numerically in a lot of places because we got small churches and places that there's not enough people to support that. But I do think that there are a lot of churches that are going to have an opportunity to revitalize. And that's what I and I think, what's happening now. So you mentioned Nazarene Salvation Army, the United Methodist Church global Method Church.

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Adam Hamilton: I think there's a reorganizing and a reordering of those churches in the Westland tradition, and I think there are. We've got a lot of Nazarene who are here at Church of the Resurrection. one Nazarene pastor said. We're the largest Nazarene church in Kansas City. If you look at the Nazarene, to to this congregation and staff members and pastors, and and almost weekly. I have conversations with people about that, and there are Nazarene for much more conservative. And so there's a sort of reordering the progressive Nazarene make great united methods.

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Adam Hamilton: The I thought at 1 point the Gmc. Might have done well to look at joining the Nazarene Church, or maybe the Wesleyan Church, or the Free Wesley in church, or one of the others because they're they're aligned. They they align really well together instead of start starting something new from scratch. And I think some of the larger churches are trying to figure that out, too. But I do see. Hope I actually see. And I'm a rose colored kind of glasses, Guy, but I think when you do.

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Adam Hamilton: I think what for the United Methodist Church? I think our emphasis on the intellectual side of the Gospel, the heart side of the Gospel, and the doing side of the gospel, the head, heart, and hands.

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Adam Hamilton: When we do that well. And we, you know, we have vital worship. I think we're. I think people are draw non-religious people are drawn to churches that actually do something in response to their faith when it comes to working with the poor when it comes to engaging injustice, and when they come to the churches they find that there's a spiritual vitality, and the people are drawn into faith in Jesus Christ. They're encouraged to read their Bibles. I mean, these are our expectations for membership here, ours that are, that you worship every weekend that you pray 5 times a day

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Adam Hamilton: we we are. We challenge people and and expectations. They're going to read the Bible every day. And you know. So you know, we give Bibles to everybody. We, you know, we want them to read Scripture. They're called to serve in the community and in the world that they've got to be, do pursuing acts of justice and mercy in their community and in the world, and and they are sharing their faith with other people. And so I think when you do those things.

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Adam Hamilton: People are drawn to that, and when they find a faith that speaks to their head and their heart and their hands. and I'm going to say, that's true for the Salvation Army, the Nazarene Church, the Gmc. The Umc

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Adam Hamilton: vital Christ, you know it looks like vital Christianity. But what we have to recognize is today in a in an increasingly secular world, where people have been turned off by Christianity and what they perceive as this judgmentalism, or it's narrow mindedness, or whatever

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Adam Hamilton: they got to see. The gospel lived out by us as churches. They've got to see churches who are actually pursuing.

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Adam Hamilton: you know not just praying for God's kingdom to come on earth, but actually pursuing it

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Andy Miller III: in their communities. And when they see that I think they're open to coming and experiencing the light and life of Christ in our churches.

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Adam Hamilton: I'm going to say yes, and I'm going to do everything I can during my remaining years in ministry to see that happen. I've seen tons of examples of it, and it's very exciting. And I, you know, we started a new location just right before Christmas. It was a United Methodist church. It was down to 60 people a Sunday and worship. And today we're running 450 a Sunday there, right across from the University of Missouri, Kansas City, in a very, you know, an area where

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Adam Hamilton: we should be able to reach people. And it's just been. I preach there last Sunday at 9 Am. And it was like to see it was the church where I was an associate pastor, and to have seen it with 60 people, and that's it with 450 people.

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Adam Hamilton: It's exciting. And so yes, I I think that can happen. And I've watched it happen, and it is glorious to see a resurrection take place in churches that are vital and alive and and I want to say one last thing about the the we have running more questions. You have a great, but you might get one more. And I hope, yeah, okay, that's great. Well, I'll let you get that one more. But I want to say.

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Adam Hamilton: you know we disagree on on this. I'm assuming that you and I do but

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Adam Hamilton: There are. So last Sunday I was. I went to one of our other locations. I'm on vacation now, and and study. Leave this month what one of our other locations, and I had this young woman come up to me, and she said.

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Adam Hamilton: I just want to. I've never met you before. I just want to thank you for starting church, the Resurrection. And I said, Well, thank you. I'm you know, really. Tell me your story, and and she's a Pk. And her sister's a Pk. In a more conservative Wesley and denomination, and her sister came out, and that was really hard for her dad, who's a pastor, and and that led.

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Adam Hamilton: you know, these 2 sisters to stop going to church and stop pursuing their faith and their mom, who is a part of the more conservative Wesley, the nomination, said.

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Adam Hamilton: Please go to church, the Resurrection. Please go there. and you know her. Mom's praying for these girls to be in church. And and she said, you know, we came here, and we found

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Adam Hamilton: a church that was vital and passionate, and you know the same theology. But yet. You're you know, you're welcoming to my sister, and I just want you to know how much we appreciate that. And my dad still doesn't like you. But my mom is really glad we're coming to church here, and you know I appreciated that. And I think there's I think it's important

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Adam Hamilton: in this Western tradition. We disagree on how we're interpreting Scripture.

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Adam Hamilton: We agree that we love Jesus, and we want people to know Jesus, and we want to be light and salt in the world. And and we're going to reach people that the Gmc. Will not reach. And and I think there's an increasing number of those people in our world as more and more people are, are turning away from faith in any denomination. You know the Southern Baptist of the last few years. I mean. It's it's happening everywhere.

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Andy Miller III: And so I'm I'm pretty excited. I would I I can. I can see that Mom's heart. And I I can understand why she might want her daughter to go to your church. And maybe if she thinks okay, there's other methods. I really don't want her to go to the church where

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Andy Miller III: Pastor Penny cost the trains the cross-dressing person. drag Queen to. I I'm sorry I don't have the right terms, but like you could see like there's then that's attention I wanted to bring out. And I think you've done a great job, Adam, of highlighting the Centrist, the central side to it. But there's the extreme version that I think really does worry people. And those things are real, like those those testimonies

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Andy Miller III: from folks. And that perspective from that perspective are real. Okay, what type of pastors

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Andy Miller III: do you think

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Andy Miller III: should be a track should be attracted if they're feeling called to ministry if they want to serve some place. What type of pastors? And I'm thinking about this in theologic education, and we will still serve people in the United Methodist church. We have a huge group of people in our demon program who are United Methodist pastors, some who are staying in the 9 Methodist Church. But as you're thinking about people who might be feeling called to ministry.

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Adam Hamilton: What type of people should it feel led to the Imfos Church?

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Adam Hamilton: I So here's my hope is, my hope is, we have people who are And again, the titles don't work very well anymore. I used to talk about evangelical progressives and progressive evangelicals, and today progressive means something different than it used to mean. And so neither of those words are necessarily as helpful as they used to be, I'm

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Adam Hamilton: But

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Adam Hamilton: yeah, I that's what I think, I think you know. And I describe myself as a evangelical, progressive or a progressive evangelical, depending on the issue in the day of the week. So the evangelical desire, the passion. We're reaching non religious and nominally religious people and helping them find Christ and see their lives transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit is.

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Adam Hamilton: should drive us.

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Adam Hamilton: and at the same time we should also find ourselves recognizing that the Church. The body of Christ is, is God's response to the brokenness in our world, that that we are the hands and feet of God and hands, feet of Christ. And so where there's injustice, or there's pain, or that there's hurt, or there's people who are alienated. I look at Jesus, and

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Adam Hamilton: I mean His constant.

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Adam Hamilton: you know, driving passion, especially in Luke's gospel, was to find people who others had alienated or pushed away from God, and and he was reaching out to them. You know, he says, that a Luke 1,910, the Son of Man, came to seeking to save those who are lost.

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Adam Hamilton: and for him. That was, you know, that was the hungry and the thirsty, but it was also the lepers, and the and the Samaritans and and women, and you know

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Adam Hamilton: that's why I think the idea of how we're and I use. We use a lot of the Ron high fits terms from Harvard on. You know what a leaders do. Leaders close the gap between the world as it is in the world? Is it supposed to be the kingdom of God, and our task is both to draw people into the kingdom, to draw people to Christ, and then to work, you know, as we can, to close the gap between

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Adam Hamilton: the world as it is in the world as God wants it to be. And I think you know those the folks that were.

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Andy Miller III: Yeah, let me let me follow up there. One quick thing there with that is like the the desire to seek and save the loss. What if somebody came to church a resurrection, and maybe you're in a small group or a Sunday school class, or maybe even on Sunday morning, and said, I need to confess my sins, and they came up, and they said, I have been living in a homosexual relationship. I'm a practicing homosexual, and this is a sin. I read it in Scripture, and I'm confessing that. And I want to change

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Adam Hamilton: what would. What would you say? Yeah. Well, first of all, we wouldn't do that in front of the church. Probably I would say, if they came to me personally, let me just answer that question. If they came to me personally, I'd want to talk through this with them, and I'd want to find out more about you know what's their what is their experience of homosexuality? There, I think there are people

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Adam Hamilton: for whom, if I'm straight and I'm going to go have gay sex, you know. That's a sin for me. I don't believe that that's scheduled for my life. I think there are people who are gay or lesbian, and I think for them conversion therapy and trying to make them be heterosexual is not the answer from my perspective. And I was just saying that just be clear. I was just saying like, if they come to, I understand. But but I think I would want to know

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Adam Hamilton: because generally I've had a lot of those conversations, but they're not the way you've just expressed it. I've had

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Adam Hamilton: literally conversations with.

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Adam Hamilton: I'm guessing. Well, certainly. Dozens and dozens of people who came to me, and what they said was.

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Adam Hamilton: you know, Pastor, I'm I'm gay. I've known I've been gay since I was a kid. and I just want to know is it safe to come to this church? I love your preaching, and I love.

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Adam Hamilton: I love what I experience here, and I experience God, and I want to follow Jesus, and I've been hurt and beat up so many times in churches, not physically beat up, but emotionally beat up.

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Adam Hamilton: And I just want to know is it safe for me to come here, or who who want to talk through. You know the feelings they've had, or want to talk through, what their parent, their parents response to them, or a whole host of other things.

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Adam Hamilton: I'm

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Adam Hamilton: so, you know, I just saying that, and that before my own views changed, I'm talking about, even when I would have that I think this is a sense. So my answer then would have been, you know you're not going to be so. I remember

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Adam Hamilton: several of these conversations where my response was.

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Adam Hamilton: When they come, came to talk about this. You know I love you, and you're not going to get beat up by me here. I'm going to be an advocate for you. I'm going to go to the mat for you, right.

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Adam Hamilton: and I don't think this is. Guys will for your life. And so that would have been my answer earlier in my ministry. And

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Adam Hamilton: I would say, the more I studied, the more I tried to understand. The more people that I met, the more stories I heard, the more I began to think theologically and biblically, about how we interpret Scripture, the more my views changed on that. And so

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Adam Hamilton: Anyway, I don't know. That's great. That's helpful. I know I threw that question in there. It's from my own experience, and maybe in. And I'm in a different. I've been in a different context serving people who are homeless, and that that's been a question that's come to me, Adam. Thank you so much. It's great to talk to you. It's really I'm and I mean, this is an honor to talk to you, and it means a lot to me that you are willing to take time to do this. Likely, if you just looked up Wesley vocal scenario, you knew that we were conservative school. Yeah, so thank you so much for taking the time with me. It means a lot

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Adam Hamilton: a Andy. I really appreciate you asking me I was. I felt the same. So I I had to look up Wesley Biblical Seminary because I I wasn't as familiar with it, and you know when I saw your you know the the school. It looks like a great school. Looks like you're doing great work and going like crazy.

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Adam Hamilton: Well, right? That's awesome. And and I thought, you know, I'm really glad he wanted to reach out to me and talk to me, you know, and what you try to avoid is people who are setting a trap for you where they're actually what they want to do is just, you know, I I try to avoid those. But I I looked. I looked you up, and I thought, that doesn't seem like Andy. It's I feel like he wants to have an earnest conversation, and I love talking with anybody about these things. I you know

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Adam Hamilton: I I think one of the passages it's been important to me is when Paul talks about. We see through a glass dimly. You know. What I realize is I don't fully understand.

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Adam Hamilton: You know everything about the mind and heart of God. I'm doing the best I can, as I'm trying to live my life and trying to follow Christ. And so I think we've got to be able to listen to each other. We've got to be able to hear each other. We've got to be able to look at you, Andy, and go. You're doing really important thing to work. And I'm really glad that we're on the same team, even if we disagree. And we're not on exactly the same team.

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Adam Hamilton: We're in the same League, maybe, or maybe we're not on the same League. Maybe we're at least in the same sport. But maybe maybe maybe a different sport. I don't know. We're we're humans. We're trying to follow Jesus the best. And and we look to the Scriptures. We look to the historic essentials, the Christian faith.

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Adam Hamilton: and

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Adam Hamilton: at least for me, I'm okay that you see things differently. I I know I feel like I know where you're coming from, because I was there for a long time, anyway, and I value that. And I value what you're doing. And I just want to say, thank you for the work that you do and and Rob, you're going to have Rob on. I know you're interviewing him later. I value Rob, you know he and I actually share a lot in common, and some stuff where we disagree, and I

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Adam Hamilton: You know I don't. you know, I I and we disagree.

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Adam Hamilton: but I value him too, and I. You know I know

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Adam Hamilton: that he's trying to do the best he can, based upon how he sees the world, and I think that's

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Adam Hamilton: I think that's all that any of us can do. So anyway. Thanks again for having me. I really appreciate it. Good to talk to you today. And yeah, God bless you have a good day, I bless you. Bye, bye.