When Women Lead with Carolyn Moore

In today’s podcast, I talk to Carolyn about how women and men can have realistic expectations and employ effective strategies to help women move beyond survival and find joy in leading others. Rather than a biblical defense of women in ministry, Carolyn Moore’s new book, When Women Lead, takes the important next step to help women know how to effectively serve in church leadership.

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Transcript

Welcome to the more to this story, Podcast. I am so glad you have all come along. We have a great show in store for you today, somebody that I've heard from from a while. I'm so glad that I have a chance to have a conversation with her about her new book. But before I do that, I want you to know that this podcast is brought to you by Wesley Biblical Seminary, where we are developing trusted leaders for faithful churches. And right now, in the season of kind of like the Pan Wesley movement, we know that there are a host

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of churches out there that are faithful to the Gospel, and that are working through a difficult time, and we exist as a seminary to train leaders, not just pastors, but any leaders in that church to be ready to serve those churches and just quickly announce that we are approved by the Global Methodist Church for both of our our seminary as a whole is approved and our course of study. So if you'd like to find out more about us. You can go to Wbs

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Dot Edu to find out more about Wesley Vehicle Seminary. Also, this podcast is brought to you by Wpo development. They are a group of people who come together to help churches, schools, institutions, social service agencies

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to develop strategic plans and capital campaigns, and they've helped more than 250 organizations have successful capital campaigns, and their CEO Keith Waters is a friend of mine, and I've worked with him, and I recommend him to you, so you can find out more about them in my show notes or@wpodevelopment.com.

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Andy Miller III: Finally, I I have a new resources available. I'm. So excited about it. It is a short study for small groups based on the Book of Jude. It's 6 small group video sessions with discussion guides that walk through those short 25 verses at that little book at the end of the Bible Dial. A lot of people forget. About but it has been incredibly powerful for me to look at this book and to understand the depth of it, and how it speaks to this cultural moment, particularly with the sexual revolution, and the way that it's experienced being experienced at this time.

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and it's call to contend for the faith, once for all, delivered to the saints. So If you go to my website, Andy Miller, the third.com, you can find out more about that resource, and i'd love for you to access that.

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Andy Miller III: Okay. I am glad to bring into the podcast Carolyn Moore, who is the pastor at Mosaic Church in Evans, Georgia, to talk about her new book. When women lead Carolyn Welcome to the podcast.

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Carolyn Moore: Thank you. It's a joy to be here. I really appreciate the opportunity to share with you.

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Andy Miller III: Well, I remember the first time I heard of you, and we missed each other at Asbury Seminary, but I was. I was with J. D. Walt, who's the the leader of the of Se. Bed, and he he said something really interesting. Now maybe you've heard him say this, and maybe you've asked him to not say it, but he, he had the time. This was probably 15 years ago. I don't know 10 years ago, somewhere in there, he said. Well, the Baptists have

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Carolyn Moore: Beth more, but we have Carolyn more. And and I thought, oh, man, I gotta find out who this is. So that was my introduction to you so so obviously. Then we've I've seen several things that you've done through seed bed, but the new Room Conference and other places as well. But this book is he a a little bit of a turn, because it's talking about something that's very personal to you, but also trying to be a guide to other women. What what led to this book.

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Carolyn Moore: Well, I've been. I've been in ministry for 25 years for the last 20 years I've been planting a church, and I guess after 20 years. It's really not a church plant anymore, but it's kind of what I did. I I started it. I I actually my whole ministry has been that I, from the first 5 years of my ministry. I planted a congregation across the street from the

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Carolyn Moore: church that I was serving in a as a as an intentional kind of second wing to our campus, and then the last 20 I've been here, and Evans George, are planning a church and developing it, and

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Carolyn Moore: along the way, you know I I would. I would notice that I wanted to do the things that my male colleagues were were doing. My, I've great male colleague friends, and they were always willing to coach me and help me, and many of them are church planters, and

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and and it would they would give me ideas, and I would go home, and I would do them, and I would think to myself, not I. I'm not the brightest bulb in the leadership box. But

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Carolyn Moore: I you know I i'm not. I'm. Not that much different than these guys. And why is it that I can do the same things they do, and it gets different results. I think that some of it is, you know. There we're all called to different things. We're wired in different ways. Our leadership gifts are different.

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Carolyn Moore: but some of it felt to me like it was gender related because I am a a female in ministry in the South that that could be a limiting factor. But every time I would say that out loud people would say, No, you're fine. You're great. We we love you, which is a very nice and affirming thing to say, but that really wasn't my point. I I was really looking for people to

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Carolyn Moore: help me understand what our limits are, or or maybe not even what our limits, what our challenges are. So if we, if we can name those challenges

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Carolyn Moore: that we can learn how to lead past them. And so over the years, as I've continued to grow as a pastor. And as I've continued to kind of develop this church that I've

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Carolyn Moore: been part of this community that I've been part of for all these years. I I realized, yeah, some of it is my particular call. I I think i'm called more to missional communities into big BoT rapid growth, church plants, but some of it is directly related to my place as a female pastor.

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Carolyn Moore: and I've and I you know i'm far enough along in my ministry now that I can say that without feeling, as I said as a victim. I don't say that defensively. I'm I'm certainly not angry about it. It just is, and so I I I sort of felt like

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What if I. What if I could study that? Really, what is the difference between planning a church as a woman and planning a church as a man?

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Carolyn Moore: What what if we just looked objectively at the differences so we could figure out how to lead past those challenges that women face.

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Carolyn Moore: so they can be successful. And as somewhere along the way

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Carolyn Moore: as we Seminary started a church planning cohort as a doctor of ministry program, and I asked if I could just study that as as a as a doctoral project, and they allow me to do that.

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And so the book actually comes out of my own

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Carolyn Moore: first my own experience, and then the study in my my doctoral program. and after I finished my dissertation

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Carolyn Moore: I realized that this stuff I found I didn't want it to be sitting on a library shelf being read by other doctoral students. I really wanted it to be out there and and and in a and and packaged in a way that really reached beyond church planters that even reaches beyond

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Carolyn Moore: lead pastors and ministry settings, but but reaches any female who is who who senses herself called to to leadership in any way, whether it's

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Carolyn Moore: at whether it's nonprofit leadership, or our ministry leadership. And you're leading a women's ministry, your children's ministry, or or or even you, just because many of the people I

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Carolyn Moore: I interviewed. We were outside the ministry, so you could just be in leadership in general, and I think the book would resonate with you. It's written from a Christian perspective, but it's written to address female leadership in general.

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Carolyn Moore: and that's how it happened. Yeah interesting, and it's it's what I find so helpful. It's like. There is a necessary step that needs to be taken Understanding the theological context, the cultural context to be understand, like how interpreting Scripture, because obviously there's distinct views within the church about

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Andy Miller III: women in ministry. And so most of the books that are there, and most of the study is just like, okay. Can they be in ministry? Yes or no, and like that's the big question. And so we get that question answered. But we don't have much

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Andy Miller III: on this second step. Okay. So those of us who affirm that women can be a ministry in Wesley Biblical Seminary. Most of, I think, almost all of the denominations that we serve at Wesley Biblical Seminary in in our in the distribution, and that which will now, of course, include the Global Methodist Church a a firm minimum in ministry. So we're talking Savage Army Nazarene Association of Independent Methodist Congregation. All all of all of these groups affirm this. But there, Hasn't, been much work to say.

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Andy Miller III: How do you do it? And there are certain challenges and differences, and and that, and I I feel like I could get shot for just saying that right like oh, women are different. But like this is the key thing that you're you're working through. So you. The first part of this book is just talking about barriers, and then kind of how to work through those barriers. Could you pick a few of those that you could talk to us about like what those barriers are.

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Carolyn Moore: Yeah, man, everything you just said. Thank you. Thank you for saying it just the way you said it, because it it is really true. There, we we we asked the question, Can women lead, but not how to women lead, and the the the rest of the secular world.

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Carolyn Moore: the the educational world, the psychological world. They've all asked that question, and they've studied it significant. I mean, like there's just tons of studies in the in the rest of the world about what happens when women lead we in the church

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Carolyn Moore: thought the question was answered when we answered it theologically, and and it's not. It's not the whole. It's you, haven't. You haven't done all the work yet, so thank you for everything you just said, and and it's absolutely fair to ask the question, what happens when women lead, and how is it different than when we, when when men lead, what we're saying is

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Carolyn Moore: we we're not saying that men don't have leadership challenges. Of course they do, and there are challenges specific to men in general, not just men in specific, but just like. There are challenges that are specific to. I mean that are that are are

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Carolyn Moore: our

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Carolyn Moore: for men. In general there are challenges for women in general as well, and lots of studies back this up. So let me talk about 2 or 3 that are just some of my favorites. There's I. I I identified 6 total, but 3 that are among my favorites are the

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Carolyn Moore: once you get past the theological barrier, and it is a barrier because 50% of the Christian world does not believe that women or does not a spouse women as

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Carolyn Moore: as in leadership and in church ministry roles. So unless you're leading women or children, there's not a place for you in as a lead pastor, or as a church plan, or or in in roles, that i'll call it you in place of talk of of teaching men and women together. So

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Carolyn Moore: so 50% of the Christian world

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Carolyn Moore: does. There is a barrier there, and in a way that is a barrier for women, just because it means that as a church planter i'm fishing from half the pond, even if you, even if you

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Carolyn Moore: Aren't, really sure about what you think about women in ministry when you come to my church. If you were raised Southern Baptist or raised Catholic, or raised in a more conservative reform tradition. There's something that's going to catch in you. You're not sure if this ought to be or not.

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Carolyn Moore: and that's that is. This is kind of a typical thing that happens is people will come to my church. They will love the the freedom of worship. They will love the missional kind of emphasis that we placed on ministry. They they love all of that but 3 or 4 weeks in they'll They'll ask me, Kit, on the way out the door. Can I get an appointment with you?

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Carolyn Moore: I just want to know. Can you tell me Why, it's okay for me to be here again, because i'm not sure. I don't. I don't know what I believe you know, this Haven't really thought it through for themselves. So so the theological barrier is real. But then, beyond that, the the is, the is the

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Carolyn Moore: perception barrier. Before I get to the perception barrier. Let me just say this about why the perception barrier and the theological barrier are connected.

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Carolyn Moore: Here's what we believe in in kind of the Armenian tradition, or at least as far as as Wesleyan's are concerned. We believe that Genesis, one and 2 May men and women partners. We are partners in the work of stewarding creation.

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Carolyn Moore: Genesis 3 at the fall turn that partnership into a hierarchy. It says in the in Genesis chapter, 3, that men and women were sort of pitted against each other that men would would find a toil, or they would labor at their work, and women would would find themselves at a in in in odds, somehow with men.

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with their husbands. And so Genesis one and 2 made us a partnership. Genesis 3 made us a hierarchy.

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Carolyn Moore: and so the whole world lives in this fallen state

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Carolyn Moore: doesn't matter, whether you call yourself Christian or follower of Jesus, or or if your Buddhist or Hindu, or or or Islam, or is, or Muslim? Or if you are, or if you are an atheist, every one of us lives under the curse of the fall.

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Carolyn Moore: So every one of us has in our brain this idea that somehow. somehow somebody's got to win, and somebody's got to lose

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Carolyn Moore: and any relationship situation, Why, we contend with each other on a multitude of issues. But the fundamental one is between men and women.

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Carolyn Moore: and so there is a perception issue at work here. When I walk into a room

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Carolyn Moore: that where the with a woman is at the at the head of the table or on the stage, and she's the one in charge. Something inside my fallen being is gonna ask, Should this be? We don't ask that same question. If a man

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Carolyn Moore: is at the head of the table or on the stage. We just don't. We don't inherently just, or or or subconsciously ask, should he be in charge or not, we'll give him a chance to prove whether he's a qualified leader or not. But before the woman never opens her mouth or does anything leadership quality, we ask ourselves, Hmm.

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Carolyn Moore: Should she be in leadership, and that prince is an effect of the fall. So

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Carolyn Moore: so we're all living under this fallen curse, and we're all kind of in this place where our perception has been distorted.

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And so, and and because of that, whenever a woman walks into a room

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Carolyn Moore: she's left wondering will I be accepted here. So there's an external perception. You, Andy, are you really sure that I should be leading your church? And when I, that kind of causes me then to ask.

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Carolyn Moore: Should I really be leaving this church, or or are these people gonna give me authority? So we kind of we end up apologizing our way into rooms, and that it's a way, and our sensitive authority. And so there's it's almost like a double bind, because

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Carolyn Moore: because others may not automatically or assume my leadership authority. I then can can internally question my leadership, authority. And

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Carolyn Moore: so the perception barrier is very real, and it requires a lot of education, and you know for for years what I would do is I would just put my head down and do my work and let my work prove itself. But I thought over time

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Andy Miller III: that would overcome all of the perception. But the fact is, we all live in a following world, so that's connected to to like an experience like like some people. It like they don't know. I don't know when i'm doing that when i'm i'm allowing that perception barrier to minimize the role that women can lead can have in leading me

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Andy Miller III: like I I in in part I i'm i'm saying, this is a way so you can correct me or help me. That comes. For in the life of the Church, from experience that maybe the the most senior position, the the of the Hierarchy Hasn't often been

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Andy Miller III: a a female now, in in my tradition. Actually it's not true, but but nevertheless it

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Andy Miller III: because you don't have that experience of being led by a woman. Maybe that's what leads to that place of having that perception as well.

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Carolyn Moore: Yes, what do you think?

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Carolyn Moore: Oh, absolutely it all kind of it. We it all feeds on on itself, you know. It's just. It becomes almost like this cascading

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Carolyn Moore: kind of just a cascading series of things that create

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Carolyn Moore: that create, burn out and create doubt, and and it's the enemy of our souls is that this is what he's one right. This is what he's he's looking for. He's looking for. He's just planned to trying to plant seeds of doubt that he, you know, did to God really say he's been doing that from

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Carolyn Moore: from the day of the fall the god really say, and that did God really say that that transfers into so many different areas of our lives, including how we understand leadership, what leadership ought to look like, and how we understand gifts and call.

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Carolyn Moore: And and so all of that is kind of wound up in there, and and most of what how we receive All of this

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Carolyn Moore: we receive subconsciously. It's not a conscious choice for many of us. And and so I a the cascading effect. It also affects how we.

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Carolyn Moore: how we resource women pastors, we don't. The the fact is, there's just not there. There are almost no examples of women planting churches that become like a churches

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Carolyn Moore: plant churches, but they don't become mega churches because we're fishing from half the pond, and and and yet denominational resources often follow size, and so larger churches or larger church plants tend to get more of the resources, and the smaller churches are left

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Carolyn Moore: to kind of fend for themselves, and so it almost feels like a self fulfilling prophecy over time.

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Carolyn Moore: I stop you for a second, you highlight something that's helpful to me is that it might not be so so often. We'll say it with any areas of distinction. Rather, that's race, country of origin, gender, and like we'll, we'll say, well.

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Andy Miller III: and and i'm one who probably leans this way, and I need to see how that's a blind spot for me is we we push back on merit right, or the meritorious nature of society, and you just highlight that to you, said, Well, i'll just put my head down, and i'll do great work. But you don't, and i'm sure you did. But nevertheless, like there, there, you're already starting. It's like you're starting a baseball game in the fifth or sixth inning, like

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Andy Miller III: like that's exactly right. You you don't have the same, because as a church planner, particularly now, maybe if there's a large church that brought you in. Then you can do this like it's just not the same. And forgive me for this analogy. It's just not the same gain.

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Carolyn Moore: Is that right? It's not. It's not the same game. right? And so interesting that the secular world is more than happy to make this to to to to to understand this, and to make the statement

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and the and the but the

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Carolyn Moore: the church world has not caught up to that yet. It's almost like we. We just haven't done our homework.

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And so a a lot of my book. Obviously it was a dissertation first, so it was well researched. but I I did a ton more research to write the book because I really wanted to make the point that folks this is not just

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Carolyn Moore: a woman who didn't get her way trying to tell you all the reasons things Didn't you know this? These are. Try to externalize the blame. That's not what this is at all actually have a a lovely community that I serve. I'm a I i'm, i'm I've been an unfairly

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Carolyn Moore: just loved and cared for in my setting, and i'm a happy human being. But I realize. even even if things are going well, there's still things that are working against me every day simply because of my place as a female pastor. And so if I don't understand that.

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Carolyn Moore: and and really that's a lot of this book is I I wanted to use the book to talk to women, but I also wanted to use the book to talk to men who serve together with women, so that all of us can understand. Here's what we're up against.

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So if we, if if we're going to use the whole people of God for the whole work of God, we need to understand what we're up against, so that we can all be about kingdom work together.

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Carolyn Moore: It's not about making sure women get what they need. It's about making sure the kingdom gets what it's what it needs.

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Carolyn Moore: As long as you're using only half the population to to who are who are gifted and called to serve if we're not going to get where we want to go.

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Carolyn Moore: And

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Carolyn Moore: And so so yeah, it's it's it's it's not us. It's not wrong to say that men and women lead differently. It's not wrong to say that women have challenges in that work, and that they need they. Women need to understand those challenges. Not so. We can

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Carolyn Moore: act like victims, but so we can actually take.

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Carolyn Moore: So we can. We can take authority over our own call and and and use the strategies that

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Andy Miller III: we'll work in our favor, so we can be everything God has called us to be.

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Andy Miller III: I

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Andy Miller III: I I studying the founder of the the the my, my heritage, the selfish army. We started early with women in ministry, but he did it for a utilitarian purpose. It may a means, whatever it takes to get to the desired end of getting people saved. And at that point there was nobody. No other movement was using women in ministry. So he just

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Andy Miller III: the pulled in hundreds of women, and that made him more effective. Now, th the church growth sort of world, when I was serving in in ministry. There's all these challenges with the homogeneous principle like of Well just go to people where they're like, and it's just that means that we need have racially segregated churches right? Because this is going to be easier for people to get it, and that's the ultimate goal of getting people save means that we just have to cave to some of these these challenges that we experience.

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Andy Miller III: And so where people are like them, and and I feel that to a certain degree, and the same thing could be argued against just it from a pragmatic standpoint women in ministry. Well, if this, if you're cutting yourself out from 50% of people. Then let's not do it like this. Not effective. I'm not suggesting that carefully. But yeah, it's this utilitarian sort of a perspective that says whatever it takes for us to get people save, let's do it so

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Andy Miller III: well if we, if women being in leadership is gonna keep us. Now, then, let's not use that. That that I know that that's not right. But I can see how some people get there.

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Carolyn Moore: Yeah. Oh, I I that's the that's the thing that I I I really love the way you're what you're talking about right now, because the the issue it really comes back to theology. It all comes back to theology.

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Carolyn Moore: If we who are in the Wesleyan stream, which is all of those denominations that are serve, you know, at your seminary, and all of all of what we're about. If if we, if we are truly Wesley and in our theology, then we need to understand how women fit into that theology.

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Carolyn Moore: We need a we need a working theology for that. And then we we operate from that

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Carolyn Moore: for those core values we we operate from that theology. So it's not just about getting it done. It's. Really, it's really about kingdom. And and here's the Here's the irony is is if we actually stop thinking.

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Carolyn Moore: you know, in the get or done mode or thinking very pragmatically about this, and begin to think about kingdom.

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Carolyn Moore: All right. So we're all working toward the Kingdom of God. We all want to see the Kingdom of God realized on earth, and we are not going to leave women behind in that pursuit. So we're gonna we're gonna work at the pace of of

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Carolyn Moore: of of our theology. Then in the end we actually are doing more for the kingdom, not Western kingdom. Yeah, the pragmatism might get. You

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Carolyn Moore: might get it, be it to your advantage in the short term. But pragmatism will not be to the kingdom is advantage of the long term.

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Andy Miller III: Oh, Carolyn, that is good. It's it's not being the advantage in the long term I love that, and that's the same thing. I think i'm hearing you saying, too, about the nature of your church not becoming a big box. Mega church like serving as a pastor for 15 years. It just felt so to self-defeating at times like, Well, why can't, if I can just

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Andy Miller III: be like andy standing in Craig Rochelle, I should too also be able to have the same. So i'll just I mean, i'm not gonna do it. Copy their sermons, copy everything. I like it. And no, No, no, okay, thank God, for whatever they're doing. And I don't know the details of like those in the specifics of that. But that's not my goal. My goal is not to have

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Andy Miller III: 60 campuses. My goal is the kingdom like if if we just our goal, I think we're going to be in a better position.

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Carolyn Moore: Exactly. And it's funny you should mention Andy Stanley's name, because in the early days I used to, I would be so frustrated. and I would tell people I just want to be the female Andy Stanley I mean, that was kind of

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Carolyn Moore: not even consciously, but subconsciously, when I started, I just assume I would plant a church, and it would explode because I can work really hard.

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Carolyn Moore: I I can do all the things my male colleague friends are doing. Why can't I make that same thing happen? I I I would have been very happy, being the female Andy Stanley that you know. Big box, Rapid growth was what that was the model when I that I would have been great with that that would have felt like success for me. But that's not success by kingdom standards. As it turns out, what I have is a very

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Carolyn Moore: healthy missional community. It actually speaks a prophetic word into our stream that a another big BoT rapid Growth Church could not have spoken. And so

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Carolyn Moore: yeah, so you and I should have like a a therapy session because I I my name is Andy and I I didn't want to be the female Andy Stanley. But I thought for a while i'll be the Salvation Army. Andy Stanley right like yeah, I i'm sure like in in. And Carol, I just say like you're a very effective preacher. I've been in the rooms when you spoke to thousands spoken to thousands of people and like, yeah, you could see, like I'm sure people would take.

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Andy Miller III: You should be the like. I said, not only that the the Westlink car, Carolin. More, I mean you are, you know, like so do you have those type of things? But you again, maybe this thing is nice compliments in that and nice ideas. But at the same time that's not the calling I I getting this like established in the right direction. Let me tell you about my experience

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Andy Miller III: in Salvation Army. Both the husband and wife are called together in ministry, and I came out of Asbury Seminary. My wife graduate from Asbury Seminary, and then we went through the Savage Army's training program, and we had a definite sense of like very

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Andy Miller III: strong. I'm like ensuring that, like 50% of the time we both pre like she percent time, and we made that priority. Well, this was: we were young, like 27, and 2627, and then then we had kids, and we had 3 kids.

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Andy Miller III: We had 7 and a half years straight and diapers, and there was a biological reality. Couple of biological realities that hit us like a ton of bricks, namely, that my wife was breastfeeding our kids. And and there was this shift in our in our practice that just

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Carolyn Moore: change the nature. And so eventually what happened is, I began to preach much more. She stayed home more with the kids, even though we were definitely both in ministry, both call both our Dane. I started, take on an administrative task just because

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Andy Miller III: mainly connected to the biological reality, and the and I. I want to bring that up in light of a chapter that you have about the nature of the the biological barriers that women experience. And you, you pose an interesting. You said this is the very real thing that nobody's talking about. So biological barrier.

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Carolyn Moore: Yeah, you probably couldn't have written this in a book and gotten away with it, Andy. But I can, because I am I'm. I'm I've been a ministry for 25 years. I've i'm nearly 60 years old. I have a child and a grandchild. I have a right to talk about my own experience, and the fact is.

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Carolyn Moore: women women can have it all. They just can't have it all at once. Not in stay saying that that that's that's an unrealistic expectation that the women's lid movement of the sixties and seventies placed on women. That, I don't believe is

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Carolyn Moore: is helpful. It's not helpful to women. It's and and it's i'm not asking.

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Carolyn Moore: I'm not asking specifically that women stay home and not work. That's not my that's not my thought at all, it's it's that women and men together have to figure this out.

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Carolyn Moore: Because if if if it is a goal in a house in a month with a family with a marriage to have children, you guys have to work that out. Who's gonna stay home? Who's gonna work? And we have 2 couples in our church right now, where the men have stayed home for years.

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Carolyn Moore: and I plot them for that. They figured it out for themselves. It's perfectly legitimate equation for health and happiness in your home and other places. You you know where the where the there's both couples are working.

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Carolyn Moore: It may be that you, as a as a couple, have to figure out all right. So how? What is ministry gonna look like right now? Is it going to be full time, ministry or part time, ministry, or or do I do I put off planting a church until after my children are at least school age. How does this work for us?

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Carolyn Moore: There's a lot of questions to ask, because biological is not even a barrier. It's just a reality. It is a reality. And when we can be honest about the stages of life for a woman, then we can give. We can resource women in such a way that they can be in the call for the long haul.

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Carolyn Moore: Studies have shown both both inside the church and outside the church studies have shown that the chance of survivability increases by over 400%

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Carolyn Moore: when the leader has realistic expectations for their experience. In other words, when you know what you're getting into, and when you're honest about the challenges you're more likely to survive. Meanwhile.

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Carolyn Moore: optimism bias is a very real thing, and when we start telling each other lies about what's possible that are simply aren't possible, not in health, not to stay healthy, not in have a Sabbath.

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Carolyn Moore: you know not, and keep your marriage alive, not in. You know not in raised children, that aren't saying they're angry at the church, you know. That's

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Carolyn Moore: if there it's it's it's good to be an optimist, but it's not good to have unrealistic expectations about what is possible in your own life, in your marriage and your household.

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Andy Miller III: What are some of the maybe we can. Maybe people see you buy the book. But and they should buy the book. By the way. Everybody is this one of those books that I'm i'm hopeful, have even a deeper impact than some of the other cped books, because it's also co-published with Zonderman, which is a great thing. But there there are some other realities that people need to consider like it. You mentioned some that, for instance, maybe, when you have young children before they're in school age. Isn't a good time to plant to church it. Maybe there's some other things that need to be taken into consideration

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Andy Miller III: the the

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Carolyn Moore: yeah, I don't even want to define by saying maybe, that when you, when you've got young kids, it's not a good time to plan a church, because because I i'm, i'm not Jesus. And I don't know your personal situation. What i'm saying is is that it's good to be realistic, and to be honest about your your expectations

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Carolyn Moore: and about your limit, your limitations. Because if we, if we come into ministry where our expectations are

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Carolyn Moore: really high and very unrealistic, and our limits are down here. Well, that gap between our expectations, our limitations that's where frustration breeds and and

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Carolyn Moore: good leadership just doesn't get fueled on frustration, nor nor nor do healthy Mary Marriages. Excuse me. All the marriages are not fueled by frustration, so so we we just want to make sure that we have right size

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Carolyn Moore: our understanding that we don't let the call of God send us into an to an overly optimistic place where we're not honestly, openly

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Carolyn Moore: addressing. Here are the limits to what we can do here. The here are the expectations that we have Here's the timeline that we are working on financially. We we, we, we, we, we we we've got to think financially about all of these things, too. A church can't survive

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Carolyn Moore: on on, you know just

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Andy Miller III: a church doesn't survive on optimism alone as a house. Nor does a household. So

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Carolyn Moore: the the the gift is really the gift of realistic expectations is that when when you're honest with yourself about places where you've been overselling your gifts or your results, or your ministry, or your or your just your bandwidth

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Carolyn Moore: where you've done that to your Detroit detriment nobody is served

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Carolyn Moore: but where you have gotten realistic about all of those things you actually serve your ministry, you serve your household. You serve your own health

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Carolyn Moore: in ways that actually I I just can't overstate the importance of that. So great.

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Carolyn Moore: What what are what? Some of those unrealistic expectations that you had for yourself.

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Carolyn Moore: Well, I just thought I could do it all and do it at once. I I thought I I didn't understand the little.

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I didn't understand things like

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Carolyn Moore: I I there has to be a Sabbath for everybody. I just thought, you know, if I just do Sabbath work really quietly, nobody will notice, but Jesus is watching, and

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Carolyn Moore: so I I. I have given up more Sabbath than the law allows. I have. I I clearly. I have overstepped my boundaries there, and nobody's. Helped by that.

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Carolyn Moore: I I I I felt I feel like in my marriage and in my family at home.

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Carolyn Moore: We all kind of gave ourselves 100 to following Jesus, and so in that way there was not a lot of frustration in our home, but I over functioned. I tried

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Carolyn Moore: to to do everything I tried to, you know. I I cooked all the meals. I cleaned the house. I, My husband was a school teacher for his whole career, and so he wasn't able to get off and come home to meet the repair guy. So

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I was the person meeting the repair guy and the pest control guy, and taking my daughter to the doctor and

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Carolyn Moore: and and then cooking every night, and making sure we had enough meals around the table every week, and

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Carolyn Moore: and helping with homework and all of that, and I was planning a church that that's a lot.

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Carolyn Moore: And so I had. A Most of my unrealistic expectations were of me, and if I had been put in a different person's body, I don't think I would have survived this. I just happened to have the kind of constitutional fortitude to push through all of those things. But

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Carolyn Moore: but but, oh, gosh! The years that my own face suffered the years that my health suffered and my health did suffer. I mean, I went through. I've been through lots of bouts of depression I went had 3 and a half years of vertigo that was just horrific and and vertical is

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Carolyn Moore: very much rooted in stress. And so, and I just never quit.

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Carolyn Moore: I wouldn't. I wouldn't recommend that to anyone. So so you know, when I talk about the first half of the book is about strategies and and sorry about limitations about the challenges. The second half of the book is about strategies.

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Carolyn Moore: I don't wanna I don't want to spend so much time on the limits that we really are talking about. Yeah, all of this is

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Carolyn Moore: it's

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Carolyn Moore: being a female, and leadership is not only doable. God has obviously called women to lead, and so it's necessary. And so how do we? How do we lead past the barriers so we can lead effectively? I think it begins

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Carolyn Moore: with knowing who you are in Jesus understanding who you are in Christ is so important, because then you really are able to make peace with your limits and live inside of them, and your

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Carolyn Moore: you're able to really take authority over the call that God has given you, and that's the second strategy really separate from knowing who I am in Christ. It's taking authority over my call, learning how to walk into a room without apologizing my way into it.

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Carolyn Moore: learning how learning, really practical strategies, for for for sitting sitting at the table and recognizing. I have a place at this table and and then learning leaders, you know, really really understanding my own leadership gift.

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Carolyn Moore: They're very practical things like learning how to negotiate your salary. Learning how to make a budget. In general, men tend to have been raised up by their dads to handle family finances. Women tend not to have been

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Carolyn Moore: top family finances, and so, consequently, when we get handed a church budget. We don't know what to do with that.

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Carolyn Moore: So understanding basic business project practices, including how to make a an effective church budget. Things like that really practical things, and then also having the the wisdom and the courage to ask your male friends to partner with you in the work of doing ministry.

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So I have some great male colleague friends that every once in a while

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Carolyn Moore: they've walked through a door. I somehow can't seem to pull open, and so i'll ask him. Can you be a door opener for me in this area of ministry, or in this

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Carolyn Moore: for for this? You know other person that I want you to talk to open the door for me, so that I can get into the room where you are. Once I get into that room it's up to me to, you know.

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Carolyn Moore: to to lead effectively. But but I need. We need to be in partnership, and so part of learning how to lead as a female is, is inviting men to be in partnership with you in that work.

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Andy Miller III: Now

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Andy Miller III: I like that that that chapter you have on partnership because you highlight that at the very beginning where you you say like this is what was existed in Genesis one and 2, and then we had Genesis 3 that comes around and hierarchy. But then you come back to partnership, and I I did like the tied up the subtitle of that chapter. Why, it's okay for men to open doors, and it's both sides right like it's like like, i'm sure you're I don't know you're glad for a door to be open

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Andy Miller III: for you physically, but also I like, yeah. So to talk to you about that a little bit more like some of us, probably like like the aspects of honoring women and honoring the roles that they they play in the distinctions between men and women, and and showing honor and support, and, like so some people might stand up every time a woman comes to a table or like why, that's why that stuff is still okay. In addition to the metaphor of opening up doors.

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Carolyn Moore: Yeah, Well, those things are not kingdom making your breaking things. If you want to open the door for me and nobody's nobody in the kingdom is hurt by that, you know, and and and if I want to bring you a cup of coffee, nobody in the kingdom is hurt by that you know we we can serve each other. The word says submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

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Carolyn Moore: False post, talking about men and women in in a marriage relationship. But I I think that that that one line, if we could learn that one line across the board, My goodness.

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Carolyn Moore: how how how much kingdom energy could be released if we learn to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. That's really the antidote to the Genesis 3 curse where we become contentious. No, in fact, we're actually supposed to serve each other.

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Carolyn Moore: and so i'm not concerned. I will I, if someone else wants to be kind toward me. That's just that's kindness, and it deserves to be honored. I'm appreciative of that. But by the same token, you know, if

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Carolyn Moore: if if God has given me resources, and in relationship that I want to make as much use of all those resources and relationship as our humanly possible and one good case in point is Jd. Walt.

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Carolyn Moore: He's the the soer in chief at Seed Bed. The publishing House.

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Carolyn Moore: Jd. Is the one who first opened the door to publishing for me. If Jd. Had not opened the door for me, I wouldn't I wouldn't have any books, much less the book you're looking at.

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Carolyn Moore: and, in fact, I had. I had tried a couple of options for getting a a a publisher.

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Carolyn Moore: for

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Carolyn Moore: for when we would lead, and just hadn't found the right. Just hadn't found the right fit for me, and so I went back to seed bed and asked it Andy Miller at Sea Bed, the other Andy Miller and and Jd. If they would be willing to open the door to Zandervin for me, and they were the ones who opened that door for me.

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Carolyn Moore: and i'm just so grateful to them

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Carolyn Moore: for what they they they have added so much value to my life by their willingness to open the door for me the the

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Carolyn Moore: coach for my dissertation is Brian Collier, who is the leader at the or 2 church in Mississippi. Brian has opened

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Carolyn Moore: so many doors for me along over the years. He's been a great friend, a great brother in Christ, a great mentor and coach and ministry, and and he's the one who told me, after my dissertation was finished.

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Carolyn Moore: I'm not going to leave you alone until you write the book. I would never I was. I was done. I never wanted to see another word or another. Another study, another chapter heading in my Life the Dissertation of Take it out of you. But he he stayed on me. When are you going to write your book? What are you gonna write your book? What a good! And then that way he opened the door for me, because he saw something in me that I didn't see myself. Georgie Sabito.

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Carolyn Moore: with Grace Church in in Florida and Cape Coral, Florida. He is open so many doors for me where recovery ministry are concerned, and missional church methods are concerned.

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Carolyn Moore: So I look around, and I see so many men in my life, who have enriched my life by the ways they have opened the doors for me, including my own husband, who's been such an encouragement, encouraging every step along the way. You know what ours is not a ministry partnership like

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Carolyn Moore: with Salvation Army. I'm very much the pastor. He had a different job, and and yet he's he's! He's often told me you can do anything you want, Carolyn, as far as i'm concerned, except quit. And because of that I because of that approach to ministry he's kept me from quitting countless times. Consequently.

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Carolyn Moore: now, at this stage in my ministry, I have opened the door to a to our associate pastor, who is male, who has been apprenticing under me for 8 years, and who will one day take my spot as the lead pastor at Mosaic church and

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Carolyn Moore: and and and I am the one who opened that door for him. And so it goes both ways right if we submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

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Carolyn Moore: not not not because of personality, not because of of it. We do it because of Jesus. It's. It's really a kingdom

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Carolyn Moore: issue. And so, you know, getting the right resources for anybody can be a challenge. But that is not broke.

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Carolyn Moore: But the God who owns the cattle on a 1,000 hills knows what he's made you for, and he knows what he's made you of.

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Carolyn Moore: and he could be trusted to provide. If we are faithful to do our part and ours is to be humble enough to look around this and see. You know what has God placed all around me? People, resources, gifts.

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Carolyn Moore: community. What has got placed around me, so that, no matter how rough the road is, I can stay in it because the the gods you brought me to it was definitely

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Carolyn Moore: resource me for the oh, I love all this, Carolyn. Thank you so much for like in helping encourage people to realize that God's the one who resources this.

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Andy Miller III: Let me ask one question. I know you've been often, as it kind of says in Hamilton, in the room where it's happened with reference to the emergence of the gold Methodist Church and Wca. But one of the I think

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Andy Miller III: critiques that have come or attacks I maybe it's a better word is that this is going to be just a a Baptist church with a Methodist name on it, and there's not going to be women in ministry. There's not going to be. It's just gonna everything that you. You know that all all the I I almost feel like a fear detective. I've heard that.

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Andy Miller III: and I've not been in in the leadership, not been in. But I follow it very closely, and, as I've said, like, our our school is going to be ordaining Gmc. Pastor, or our, or or educating them, and doing the course of study. The Gmc. Will or or named them. Obviously. But

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Andy Miller III: can you respond to that. Is that gonna I mean, you've been in these rooms where this discussion has been a a time where there's been the thought that women won't be in ministry in the Gmc.

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Carolyn Moore: Well, it's always going to be attention right when you're when you're when you're talking about orthodox or historic christianity.

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Carolyn Moore: there's always going to be attention about. You know where where we draw our theological lines, and those who tend toward more. A more conservative theology

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may have further to go in order to fully embrace the place of women and ministry.

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Carolyn Moore: So education is, will be an ongoing affair. It will never end. Keep in mind what we've said, what we said several times already. We live on this side of Genesis 3. There will always be the tension.

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the the internal battle that we have about what leadership can look like.

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Carolyn Moore: So so this Isn't a Gmc issue, or a an American Christianity issue, or a conservative progressive issue. This is a human fall in this issue it will always be there always. The tension will always exist. I want

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Carolyn Moore: friends, and and our listening audience say that together with me it will always be. It will always be attention. And so in the Gmc. That will be attention. But what we have going for us is that most everybody who's coming into the Gmc. Is coming into the Gmc. From another Wesleyan tradition that has already accepted women in the leadership. So we're not.

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We're not building something from the ground up. We're really actually

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Carolyn Moore: and we're we're we're bringing in a theology that is

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Carolyn Moore: historic and studied, and we we're just not building something from that out of nothing. So all of the Umc pastors who are coming into the Gmc. We've already been affirming women in Ministry

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Carolyn Moore: Salvation army pastors coming into the Gmc. We've already been affirming women and Ministry Free methods, pastors coming into the Gmc ministry. We've already been affirming women in ministry and so we're. As I said, we're not starting from nothing. We're starting from a place of of

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Carolyn Moore: you know, affectionate affirmation toward women. But in every one of those denominations I just mentioned. There are people sitting in those pews who do not affirm women in the ministry, and so that's just not a new thing it will, it will be.

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Carolyn Moore: There will always be attention always. But is the Gmc. Aggressively affirming of women and ministry? Yes, I have been

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Carolyn Moore: part of the Gmc. I I've been part of the Wesley and Covenant Association since it's inception. I was in the room in Houston, where it was first dreamed up.

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Carolyn Moore: I will. I was the the

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Carolyn Moore: the so what i'm trying the word i'm trying to think I was it, and I can't remember the word. But i'm the Chair of the Global of of the Global Council of West Incoming Association. Now, I was the

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Carolyn Moore: Associate chair. What is what am I trying to? I can't believe I was the person, the 1 one chair below, embarrassing the vice chair. Thank you very much. So I I like it. Yeah, yeah, I I think I just kind of blocked those years out. But I was the vice chair for years before becoming the chair. And so there's always been women in the executive roles of

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Carolyn Moore: the the Wesley and Covenant Association. And then, when the Gmc. Was formed, there have been women, I think, there, I think the chair of the Gmc.

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Carolyn Moore: Transitional Leadership Council right now is female. And so there's there's there's always women that we are. We are doing our best to elevate women who are gifted and called, who are gifted and called. And I want to say that let's not make the mistake

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Carolyn Moore: of being so affirming that we that we ignore gifts and call. That's not good for anybody. When we put this. When we put young people in positions they're not yet ready, for we do a disservice to them. We cause them to burn out too quickly. They put women in positions. They're not yet ready, for we do a disservice to them, and we call them, cause them to burn out too quickly. We make angry people, dysfunctional congregations.

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Carolyn Moore: and an an unhealth in the body of Christ. When we put people in places they are not gifted and called for Having said that, thank God for good seminary education, and thank God for good mentors, and thank God for good coaches

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Carolyn Moore: that raise people up to the place where they can then be

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Carolyn Moore: equipped and ready for the call that they've been given.

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Andy Miller III: Carolyn. This has been such a encouraging time for me. I really appreciate your time, and you write this book.

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Carolyn Moore: I I always ask a question at the end of the podcast is related to my title More to the story. Is there more to historic of Carolyn that is typically told? Is there something a hobby that you have, or something like to do, that you might not talk about regularly that we could learn more about you.

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Carolyn Moore: Oh, what a great question I I like to skate. Yeah.

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I took up skating in my fifties.

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Carolyn Moore: roller skating, ice, skating. I pick up roller skating in line, skating outdoor in line, skating in my fifties, and it's really funny. Statistics say that something like 1% of people in their fifties

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Carolyn Moore: in line skate. And so I am the 1% I. I have always been a little bit active from that, but I like looking for new things to do, and I like looking for things that I can just kind of get out there by myself. I spend a lot of time with people.

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you know. I'm. I'm with people all day, every day, and so it's just. It's a joy to me to get out and just be in nature, and

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Carolyn Moore: but going fast is fun.

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Carolyn Moore: and so I am. Lines skate, and I have a blast when I get out there, and I'm thrilled that the weather is warming up so I can get back on the trail with my inland skates. That's a great image in my mind to think of you in lines, let me tell you. I am every 5 year old hero, when they see me. But most people who are, you know, anybody 20 on up. They kind of like

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Carolyn Moore: do a double take. What is that that just went past me.

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Carolyn Moore: Well, thanks, Carolyn, for your time, and everybody go Check out. Her resources that are in my show notes means a lot to me. Thank you for giving us this resource. I wish I would have had it 20 years ago, but it's such a great thing, and I appreciate you taking time for it. God bless you.